Interesting Viewpoint on F&F

[Rucker61]

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/?hpt=hp_t2

[netsecsys]

I see the story is on CNN and the headline is: "The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal"..open head, commence shoveling...

[Ridge]

I'm not inclined to ignore a year and a half of reports about a criminal proceeding saying one thing, simply because a CNN Money blog post says it was all just a hilarious misunderstanding.

[Rucker61]

The article referenced was from Fortune, not CNN. Do you have a problem with Fortune?

[Ridge]

The article referenced was from Fortune, not CNN. Do you have a problem with Fortune?

Their business is reporting on very well off private companies. I don't think the US federal government and it's undercover operations fall under that purview.

[68Charger]

Customers can legally buy as many weapons as they want in Arizona as long as they're 18 or older and pass a criminal background check. There are no waiting periods and no need for permits, and buyers are allowed to resell the guns. "In Arizona," says Voth, "someone buying three guns is like someone buying a sandwich."since when do you need a background check to buy a sandwich?

Paragraphs like this reveal the slant, attempts to mislead the public that are not aware of the laws... and paint the picture that they need more laws to stop gun trafficking- they even try to say it's not illegal under AZ law...

bottom line, this is NOT an unbiased, truthful article.


The article referenced was from Fortune, not CNN. Do you have a problem with Fortune?

After reading this article, and it's misleading slant- YES, I do now.
Oh, and a quick google search reveals Fortune is owned by Time Warner... same parent company as CNN and Time magazine.

I wasn't a reader before, and I won't be one in the future.

[Sharpienads]

I'm trying my hardest to get through the bullsh...,err, I mean article, but my thoughts just keep drifting back to "Voth, 39, [s]trapping and sandy-haired... former Marine..."

Talk about dreamy!!!

[68Charger]

I'm trying my hardest to get through the bullsh...,err, I mean article, but my thoughts just keep drifting back to "Voth, 39, [s]trapping and sandy-haired... former Marine..."

Talk about dreamy!!!

well, it is written by a woman...


By Katherine Eban

From her homepage:


KATHERINE EBAN, an award-winning investigative reporter, writes for Fortune, Self, Vanity Fair and other national magazines. She has worked at Conde Nast Portfolio, the New York Times, New York, the New York Observer, and ABC News. Her work has been featured on national news programs including 60 Minutes, 20/20, Nightline and NPR.

[palepainter]

Out in the farm country, we call this..... Whitewash

[BPTactical]

Out in the farm country, we call this..... BULLSHIT


Fixed it fer ya!

[waxthis]

So whats the big deal then in turning all 80,000 pages of the documents for Congress to review? In addition, why the hell would Bami pull his Ace card out to save Holder and co? I mean hell, its all laid out now.

[Ronin13]

I couldn't finish that article... getting dizzy from all the fumes of BS on there... Issa is right- Terry's blood is all over the ATF and Holder's hands. They should be locked up for what they did, no ifs, no butts, do not pass go, do not collect $200, go directly to jail, or the gallows for Holder and Obama for treason. [Mad]

[palepainter]

Fixed it fer ya!


HAHAHAHA. Thanks!!!

[roberth]

Lemme see, what are the facts.

2 Federal LE murdered - check
Countless foreign nationals murdered in their own country- check
Covert action without Mexico's knowledge - check
Whitewash by the US Fed goobermint - check
Protection of the guilty by The Messiah - check

The ends (removal of the 2nd amendment) justify the means (mass murder and lies by commission/lies by omission) - check

Good work when you're a leftist who does not give a fuck about (1) human life, (2) responsibility for one's own actions, and (3) keeping the public informed with the truth.

[Rucker61]

Lemme see, what are the facts.

2 Federal LE murdered - check
Countless foreign nationals murdered in their own country- check
Covert action without Mexico's knowledge - check
Whitewash by the US Fed goobermint - check
Protection of the guilty by The Messiah - check

The ends (removal of the 2nd amendment) justify the means (mass murder and lies by commission/lies by omission) - check

Good work when you're a leftist who does not give a fuck about (1) human life, (2) responsibility for one's own actions, and (3) keeping the public informed with the truth.

So there's no guilt in the US firearm sellers and straw purchasers? I'm not interested in protecting a coverup, like anyone here, but I have to wonder where the outrage was in 2006-2007 for a similar operation called Operation Wild Receiver that also allowed guns to walk into Mexico, with no arrests.

[Ronin13]

So there's no guilt in the US firearm sellers and straw purchasers? I'm not interested in protecting a coverup, like anyone here, but I have to wonder where the outrage was in 2006-2007 for a similar operation called Operation Wild Receiver that also allowed guns to walk into Mexico, with no arrests.

Not when the US FFLs were told to allow it to happen by ATF agents... [Bang]

[Sharpienads]

So there's no guilt in the US firearm sellers and straw purchasers? I'm not interested in protecting a coverup, like anyone here, but I have to wonder where the outrage was in 2006-2007 for a similar operation called Operation Wild Receiver that also allowed guns to walk into Mexico, with no arrests.


Not when the US FFLs were told to allow it to happen by ATF agents... [Bang]

This.

And from what I understand, during Op Wide Receiver, the guns were actually tracked (or attempted to be tracked) instead of just letting them "walk", Mexican authorities were in on the operation, no deaths have been traced to the operation, and once it was discovered that "hey, this isn't really working, maybe we shouldn't do this" the operation was shut down in 2007.

I'm not making any excuses for Wide Receiver or those involved, I'm just sayin'.

[Rucker61]

Not when the US FFLs were told to allow it to happen by ATF agents... [Bang]

Got a cite on this? I haven't seen it in my admittedly limited research. Were they not selling suspiciously large amount of weapons to apparent straw purchasers before? They were at least as far back as 2006 per the aforementioned ATF operation.

What exactly is the issue here? I know that folks here hate the current administration, and any activity by POTUS and the entire Executive branch is akin to treason, but explain it to me dispassionately.

As I understand the process, FFLs in Arizona (and other places, but Arizona seems to be Ground Zero) legally sell many firearms to young gun purchasers. Said legal gun purchasers are actually straw purchasers for other buyers, who for various reasons don't/can't make these purchases. These straw purchases are the first illegal act in the chain of activity. The secondary purchasers (or the next ones in the chain) then import the weapons illegally into Mexico for sale to folks we (and the Mexican government/locals) would rather not have armed.

Some of these weapons don't get imported into Mexico, but remain in the US. One of these weapons was used to kill a US LEO, which everyone considers to be a bad thing.

What is the cover up? That the administration knew about the operation? That the ATF allowed guns to flow past the straw buyers into Mexico? That they deny knowing about a covert operation?

[XC700116]

So there's no guilt in the US firearm sellers and straw purchasers? I'm not interested in protecting a coverup, like anyone here, but I have to wonder where the outrage was in 2006-2007 for a similar operation called Operation Wild Receiver that also allowed guns to walk into Mexico, with no arrests.

BATFE told the firearms sellers to complete the sales. When you're an FFL holder and the BATFE tells you to complete the sale, you do it. Your FFL is your livelihood.

The straw purchasers should have been prosecuted, I blame them in part but when the BATFE is the middle man, I blame them more since they didn't bother to prosecute them.

ALL of my distain for this situation is directed at the BATFE and the dillhole in charge, one Eric Holder, for 1 authorizing this, perpetuating it, then not bothering to arrest and charge the straw purchasers involved. Then he when it blew up in his face he's shoveling like a madman to cover it up.

Then take into consideration they are doing it in order to use it to further restrict LEGAL gun owners' 2nd amendment rights, it royally pisses me off. It's bad enough that they use the criminals to try and restrict our rights but when they perpetuate something like this in order to trump up support for it, it's gone way too far. And anyone that is saying they weren't doing it for that end result is fawking kidding themselves and/or delusional.

[roberth]

So there's no guilt in the US firearm sellers and straw purchasers? I'm not interested in protecting a coverup, like anyone here, but I have to wonder where the outrage was in 2006-2007 for a similar operation called Operation Wild Receiver that also allowed guns to walk into Mexico, with no arrests.

You just lost this one when the first thing you go to is blaming Bush. You refused to discuss the FACTS of a topic that YOU opened. You cannot even speak to these facts that we have brought forth.

Go troll elsewhere.

[BUC303]

I haven't seen it in my admittedly limited research.

Well there's your problem...

[XC700116]

Got a cite on this? I haven't seen it in my admittedly limited research. Were they not selling suspiciously large amount of weapons to apparent straw purchasers before? They were at least as far back as 2006 per the aforementioned ATF operation.

What exactly is the issue here? I know that folks here hate the current administration, and any activity by POTUS and the entire Executive branch is akin to treason, but explain it to me dispassionately.

As I understand the process, FFLs in Arizona (and other places, but Arizona seems to be Ground Zero) legally sell many firearms to young gun purchasers. Said legal gun purchasers are actually straw purchasers for other buyers, who for various reasons don't/can't make these purchases. These straw purchases are the first illegal act in the chain of activity. The secondary purchasers (or the next ones in the chain) then import the weapons illegally into Mexico for sale to folks we (and the Mexican government/locals) would rather not have armed.

Some of these weapons don't get imported into Mexico, but remain in the US. One of these weapons was used to kill a US LEO, which everyone considers to be a bad thing.

What is the cover up? That the administration knew about the operation? That the ATF allowed guns to flow past the straw buyers into Mexico? That they deny knowing about a covert operation?


Do some more research and you will find that MANY of the FFL's raised concern to the ATF and they were TOLD TO SELL THEM THE GUNS.

The coverup?? are you serious? how about the numerous requests by congress to review the documents and Holder refused to turn them over. Then Obama exercises executive privilege to protect Holder, all the while Holder and the administration are saying they didn't know about it. Then why in the hell would they refuse the requested documents? They knew, they tried and are still trying to cover it up, because 1 it'd be bad for Obama's reelection campaign and 2 Holder would probably end up in federal prison, as he should.

[Rucker61]

This.

And from what I understand, during Op Wide Receiver, the guns were actually tracked (or attempted to be tracked) instead of just letting them "walk", Mexican authorities were in on the operation, no deaths have been traced to the operation, and once it was discovered that "hey, this isn't really working, maybe we shouldn't do this" the operation was shut down in 2007.

I'm not making any excuses for Wide Receiver or those involved, I'm just sayin'.

As I understand it, F&F also had the goal of tracking weapons past the inititial supplier, with some success, with about 35% of the guns recovered and some number of arrests and indictment. Op Wide Receiver also had some number of guns lost as they moved into Mexico.

Executive politics aside, what's the consensus here on the activity of straw weapons purchases for weapons destined for Mexico? Is it strictly a Mexican problem? Do we just arrest the "mules" and not look to stop the next level of purchasers? Is thihs just a state issue and the federal LEOs should stay out of it?

[Rucker61]

Do some more research and you will find that MANY of the FFL's raised concern to the ATF and they were TOLD TO SELL THEM THE GUNS.


Did this same activity happen under the last administration? Is the issue that the ATF told the FFLs to sell the guns?




The coverup?? are you serious? how about the numerous requests by congress to review the documents and Holder refused to turn them over. Then Obama exercises executive privilege to protect Holder, all the while Holder and the administration are saying they didn't know about it. Then why in the hell would they refuse the requested documents? They knew, they tried and are still trying to cover it up, because 1 it'd be bad for Obama's reelection campaign and 2 Holder would probably end up in federal prison, as he should.

What was Holder's crime? I seem to remember that the last POTUS wouldn't even testify under oath, so executive privilege is a two edged sword.

I accept that it's a campaign issue, but everything is a campaign issue to all politicians of all ilks.

[Rucker61]

Well there's your problem...

That's what this is.

Besides, all of my research time has been going into learning about riflescopes, reloading equipment, binoculars, antelope hunting and licensing and chronographs.

[Bailey Guns]

OMG!!! Rucker61 puts a liberal spin on F&F...pretty muck like everything else. Color me shocked! SHOCKED, I tell you.

[Bang]

Pretty sure your thinly veiled attempts to appear objective on this issue, Rucker, aren't gonna fly. Most of the folks here are too well informed to fall for your nonsense.

[Rucker61]

You just lost this one when the first thing you go to is blaming Bush. You refused to discuss the FACTS of a topic that YOU opened. You cannot even speak to these facts that we have brought forth.

Go troll elsewhere.

Is it not a fact that there was an Operation Wide Receiver in 2006-2007, that this operation allowed straw purchasers to walk under surveillance to get to the next node in the chain, and that some weapons were lost without traceability?

Is it not a fact that indictments for OWR began in 2010?

I don't think I've denied any information presented here; rather, I keep asking more questions. Feel free to education me. I welcome civil discourse.

[Rucker61]

OMG!!! Rucker61 puts a liberal spin on F&F...pretty muck like everything else. Color me shocked! SHOCKED, I tell you.

[Bang]

Pretty sure your thinly veiled attempts to appear objective on this issue, Rucker, aren't gonna fly. Most of the folks here are too well informed to fall for your nonsense.

Then make me one of the converted. I'm asking questions, give me some answers.

[Bailey Guns]

It's funny...the rest of us didn't have any trouble finding the answers and the truth. Why can't you? I suspect it's because it doesn't fit with your liberal agenda.

You're not going to find a lot of support here for that agenda.

[Bailey Guns]

For f**ks sake... I just read the article linked in the OP.

It was so slanted I had to turn my monitor on it's side to read it.

[spqrzilla]

The Fortune/CNN piece is an extraordinary piece of propaganda hand fed to Fortune by the ATF. It ignores the connections that have been made between the White House staff (a NSC staffer who was sent to Iraq overnight to put him out of reach of Congressional subpoena) and the ATF supervisors of F&F. It intentionally ignores much of the email that has been disclosed that shows mid management attention to the operation, complaints of field agents being overridden and the celebration by mid level management when guns showed up in Mexican crime scenes.

Anyone who had not bothered to follow the news of this scandal for the many long months that Sipsy Street Irregulars, and War on Guns has been working on it might be fooled ... but only if they really wanted to be fooled by Obama administration propaganda.

[lpgasman]

For f**ks sake... I just read the article linked in the OP.

It was so slanted I had to turn my monitor on it's side to read it.

You actually made it all the way through?[Beer]

[Bailey Guns]

You actually made it all the way through?[Beer]

Yeah, I know...

[XC700116]

Did this same activity happen under the last administration? Is the issue that the ATF told the FFLs to sell the guns?



What was Holder's crime? I seem to remember that the last POTUS wouldn't even testify under oath, so executive privilege is a two edged sword.

I accept that it's a campaign issue, but everything is a campaign issue to all politicians of all ilks.

That's the point, nobody knows for sure just how deep the rabbit hole goes, that's the whole point of the investigation. Hell for all I know he could be tied in with the cartel and providing them weaponry directly by doing it. I doubt it but guess what, we can't find out because Obama has used executive privilege for something that it can't really apply to unless he directly authorized the whole thing. In which case Holder has purgered himself to congress which IS a crime. So pick your poison.

[Rucker61]

It's funny...the rest of us didn't have any trouble finding the answers and the truth. Why can't you? I suspect it's because it doesn't fit with your liberal agenda.



That liberal agenda that includes gun ownership and rights, military service, hunting and supporting the Constitution? That one? Both sides propagate propaganda, and I don't fall for any of it. That's why I'm asking questions. See, just by posting a link to a news article (that I call "interesting" and not "the gospel truth", you'll note) I've had a lot more evidence and beliefs brought to light.

With regards to truth, I was trained as a mathematician. I think my requirements for proof may be a bit higher than most peoples'.

[Byte Stryke]

this is nothing more than political damage control



Customers can legally buy as many weapons as they want in Arizona as long as they're 18 or older and pass a criminal background check. There are no waiting periods and no need for permits, and buyers are allowed to resell the guns. "In Arizona," says Voth, "someone buying three guns is like someone buying a sandwich."

maybe because both acts are equally LEGAL you fear mongering libtards....

[spqrzilla]

Someone whose interests include gun rights ought to be outraged at the fact that the ATF tried to use guns that they had compelled gun stores to sell to justify new gun control regulations to "stop" such straw buying.

[Bailey Guns]

That liberal agenda that includes gun ownership and rights, military service, hunting and supporting the Constitution? That one? Both sides propagate propaganda, and I don't fall for any of it. That's why I'm asking questions. See, just by posting a link to a news article (that I call "interesting" and not "the gospel truth", you'll note) I've had a lot more evidence and beliefs brought to light.

With regards to truth, I was trained as a mathematician. I think my requirements for proof may be a bit higher than most peoples'.

BS. John Kerry is a military veteran and likes to parade around with a shotgun to show his "real" support of the 2nd Amendment and the Constitution. So I'm not really impressed with your little list.

If you were so concerned with the Constitution and supporting gun rights, not to mention having such high standards for discovering truth, you wouldn't have read past the second paragraph of that leftist diatribe.

Specifically, this:


Some call it the "parade of ants"; others the "river of iron." The Mexican government has estimated that 2,000 weapons are smuggled daily from the U.S. into Mexico. The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws. For six years, due to Beltway politics, the bureau has gone without permanent leadership, neutered in its fight for funding and authority. The National Rifle Association has so successfully opposed a comprehensive electronic database of gun sales that the ATF's congressional appropriation explicitly prohibits establishing one.

That single paragraph is full of classic liberal anti-gun, anti-freedom, anti-Constitution talking points. And that doesn't even take into account the remainder of the article. No, you posted the link because you believe all of the points brought up by the author and you wanted to see what kind of mileage you could get on this forum. Now you know.

So you can take your liberal "I'm just in search of the truth" nonsense and KMA. Typical liberal BS.

Feel free to substitute "progressive" for "liberal". Both are equally nauseating.

[45XD]

Not reading this... I can already tell it's going to piss me off...

[Rucker61]

BS. John Kerry is a military veteran and likes to parade around with a shotgun to show his "real" support of the 2nd Amendment and the Constitution. So I'm not really impressed with your little list.



Darn. That cuts me real deep.




If you were so concerned with the Constitution and supporting gun rights, not to mention having such high standards for discovering truth, you wouldn't have read past the second paragraph of that leftist diatribe.



You read past the second paragraph, by your admission. Does that mean that you lack concern for the Constitution and gun rights?




Specifically, this:



Yet you feel the urge to repost that paragraph so that all here can read it?




That single paragraph is full of classic liberal anti-gun, anti-freedom, anti-Constitution talking points. And that doesn't even take into account the remainder of the article.



Well, since I'm not familiar with anti-gun, anti-freedom or anti-Constitution talking points, classic or Reformed, I'll have to defer to your judgment.




No, you posted the link because you believe all of the points brought up by the author and you wanted to see what kind of mileage you could get on this forum. Now you know.

So you can take your liberal "I'm just in search of the truth" nonsense and KMA. Typical liberal BS.

Feel free to substitute "progressive" for "liberal". Both are equally nauseating.

So now you're a mindreader? You have no way of knowing my motivation for any action. You, like everyone, filter what you read or see through your own biases, but that doesn't make for cogent arguments.

[BPTactical]

Man, this one is going nowhere.

Tomorrow and the short period after will be very telling.
Until then arguing is a pretty moot point......

[Bailey Guns]

Yeah. I read the entire article. But not because I wanted to attempt to pass it off as some sort of "eye opening" piece worthy of a lot of critical thought re: the F&F scandal.

And I don't have to be a mind reader. You've put your thoughts here in black and white for all to see on this and other topics. Your political slant is no mystery.

[jreifsch80]

If the previous administration DID in fact knowingly have an operation that was supposedly the same as F&F then the people responsible should also be investigated. I hate it when people defend our current admin by saying this like "well bush did this" as if berry gets a free pass and usually the things people compare aren't even relevant

[Rucker61]

Yeah. I read the entire article. But not because I wanted to attempt to pass it off as some sort of "eye opening" piece worthy of a lot of critical thought re: the F&F scandal.

And I don't have to be a mind reader. You've put your thoughts here in black and white for all to see on this and other topics. Your political slant is no mystery.

When the right-wing calls me a leftist, and the left wing calls me rightest, I figure I'm where I need to be.

[Bailey Guns]

Yeah...most progressives/liberals/leftists won't admit to being a progressive/liberal/leftist.

[Rucker61]

Yeah...most progressives/liberals/leftists won't admit to being a progressive/liberal/leftist.

Wow, you're just full of platitudes tonight.

[sniper7]

I'm late to the party I guess. apparently we have another ERNO.

[clublights]

If the previous administration DID in fact knowingly have an operation that was supposedly the same as F&F then the people responsible should also be investigated. I hate it when people defend our current admin by saying this like "well bush did this" as if berry gets a free pass and usually the things people compare aren't even relevant

SAME? No. Similar yes. A few key differences

Operation Wide Receiver ran in 06-07. there were full efforts to track the weapons. ( GPS tracking.. surveillance, aircraft so on and so on )
It was carried out with the full knowledge and participation of the Mexican Government.

It was stopped after apx 300 guns had been lost due to failures in the tracking, the suspects evaded them or they were lost during the "hand off" to the mexican police.

No OWR weapons have turned up at crimes scenes ( that I have been able to find reports of at least)

F&F ran from 09-10 there were NO efforts to track the weapons the mexican government was not informed. APX 2000 guns were allowed to walk in F&F

F&F Ran till BP agent Brian Terry was murdered. F&F guns turned up at his crime scene and and many others. APX 300+ Mexican Citizens have been killed by weapons linked to F&F. Also the ICE Agent killed ( who's name I can't recall at the moment) there was evidence of F&F Guns involved in his murder.

[Rucker61]

SAME? No. Similar yes. A few key differences

Operation Wide Receiver ran in 06-07. there were full efforts to track the weapons. ( GPS tracking.. surveillance, aircraft so on and so on )
It was carried out with the full knowledge and participation of the Mexican Government.

It was stopped after apx 300 guns had been lost due to failures in the tracking, the suspects evaded them or they were lost during the "hand off" to the mexican police.

No OWR weapons have turned up at crimes scenes ( that I have been able to find reports of at least)

F&F ran from 09-10 there were NO efforts to track the weapons the mexican government was not informed. APX 2000 guns were allowed to walk in F&F

F&F Ran till BP agent Brian Terry was murdered. F&F guns turned up at his crime scene and and many others. APX 300+ Mexican Citizens have been killed by weapons linked to F&F. Also the ICE Agent killed ( who's name I can't recall at the moment) there was evidence of F&F Guns involved in his murder.

It also appears that standing DOJ and ATF policy was to follow the straw purchasers to the next node in the chain and arrest both parties, but agents were prevented from this by their chain of command. Obviously that this was a seriously bad decision. Do we know if those who issued these orders are the same folks who can estalish policy? I also wasn't able to find any evidence that the guns lost in Wide Receiver were used in violent crimes, but mere possession of those weapons is a crime.

I wonder how high up the sacrificial lamb will come from?

[Ridge]

When the right-wing calls me a leftist, and the left wing calls me rightest, I figure I'm where I need to be.

It probably means you're a libertarian, closest thing to a true conservative left any more.

[jreifsch80]

My point was that despite what was done in the past F&F is horrible and I hate when people justify when the gov does based on what people also did wrong in the past

[BPTactical]

I wonder how high up the sacrificial lamb will come from?

Heron lies the real question.
Will Oblunder sacrifice his Heinrich Himmler to save his own bacon?
Will Congress follow this to its fullest extent and discover that (in the words of the SCOTUS in Watergate findings) "It lay at the feet" of Oblammy?
Will documents be uncovered that show proof that EH&Co, Hellary and Oblammy have complicity up to their eyeballs in F&F to hamstring our 2A rights? (my feelings are this, although we will probably never know)

We shall see.

[Irving]

So there's no guilt in the US firearm sellers and straw purchasers? I'm not interested in protecting a coverup, like anyone here, but I have to wonder where the outrage was in 2006-2007 for a similar operation called Operation Wild Receiver that also allowed guns to walk into Mexico, with no arrests.

Let me be the second to say that those involved in OWR should then they should be prosecuted as well.




With regards to truth, I was trained as a mathematician. I think my requirements for proof may be a bit higher than most peoples'.

Eric Holder = Enemy of the United States


There you go.

[sniper7]

Eric Holder = Enemy of the United States


That's like a modern day E-MC2!

[Bailey Guns]

I'm late to the party I guess. apparently we have another ERNO.

I was thinking more like another nynco.

[Rucker61]

I was thinking more like another nynco.

And here I thought I wasa modern day Diogenes.