Holder vote

[Scanker19]

Anyone watching it?

[jackthewall81]

Nope what's happening?

[jackthewall81]

Herd that he is in criminal contempt....

[trlcavscout]

Herd that he is in criminal contempt....


Which means he will get a bonus and maybe a vacation golfing and thats about it.

[lifeon2]

Dont forget about being transferred to a better paying position with less responsibility.

[Scanker19]

More talking and debating. Good points being made. Some Dems crying racism.

[trlcavscout]

More talking and debating. Good points being made. Some Dems crying racism.

Fuck racism and the people crying, he is a damn criminal [Rant1]

[jplove71]

House holds Holder in contempt!

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/28/politics/holder-contempt/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

[Scanker19]

House holds Holder in contempt!

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/28/politics/holder-contempt/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

255-67

[ghettodub]

Awesome

[BigDee]

I am hearing civil contempt not criminal.

[asmo]

Now someone that ultimately reports to Holder will decide whether or not he should make waves with his boss. Gee I wonder what will happen.

[Rucker61]

From abcnews.com

Contempt of Congress

If the entire lower chamber votes against Holder, the possibility of impeachment arises.

But it’s complicated. If Congress wants to impeach Holder, it has to go through court, and through the Justice Department — the very agency Holder leads.
In that case, Holder could recuse himself because of an obvious conflict of interest.
“There’s some obscure possibilities here,” noted Frank Bowman, a University of Missouri law professor who has written about such legal matters.


An opinion written in the Office of Legal Counsel during the Reagan administration by Ted Olson, later a U.S. solicitor general, concluded that the Justice Department isn’t compelled to prosecute the attorney general because of the way the contempt statutes are written.
That could lead to a standoff between the agency and Republicans in Congress, noted Peter Shane, an expert of executive privilege at Ohio State

Later, the House will vote on a second civil contempt resolution, which authorizes the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform to initiate or intervene in judicial proceedings to enforce its subpoena.

[Mtn.man]

All the dems were running, cause Holder is gonna start pointing.

[TAR31]

All the dems were running, cause Holder is gonna start pointing.

We can only hope he starts pointing to the top.

[ghettodub]

I wonder who the 17 dems are that voted him in contempt. Anyone have a link to the vote?

[yankeefan98121]

I wonder who the 17 dems are that voted him in contempt. Anyone have a link to the vote?

More importantly who are the 2 republicans that voted against it

[Scanker19]

More importantly who are the 2 republicans that voted against it

Latourette (OH) and Rigell (VA)

Doesn't say parties on the Yes vote.

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2012/roll441.xml

http://www.c-span.org/Events/Full-House-Votes-to-Hold-Atty-Gen-Holder-in-Contempt/10737431952/

[yankeefan98121]

Latourette (OH) and Rigell (VA)

Doesn't say parties on the Yes vote.

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2012/roll441.xml

http://www.c-span.org/Events/Full-House-Votes-to-Hold-Atty-Gen-Holder-in-Contempt/10737431952/


Off With Their Heads!

[Scanker19]

108 Dems walked out, to include the Congressional Black Caucus, the Hispanic group, etc. Makes me mad to be a Hispandex sometimes when they cry racism.

[hatidua]

Clinton was fully impeached.....that really affected things a lot! These legal technicalities don't have a lot of impact on the daily lives of most Americans, including Holder.

[BUC303]

108 Dems walked out, to include the Congressional Black Caucus, the Hispanic group, etc. Makes me mad to be a Hispandex sometimes when they cry racism.


it was painful to listen to, just about every Dem that spoke before the vote accused them of being racist, being on a partisan witch hunt and or blamed the Bush administration, and don't get me started on Pelosi

[yankeefan98121]

Pelosi is the biggest cunt of them all

I'd love to tea bag that bitch

[Ronin13]

108 Dems walked out, to include the Congressional Black Caucus, the Hispanic group, etc. Makes me mad to be a Hispandex sometimes when they cry racism.
"To cry racism where none exists or when the truth becomes clearly offensive is to show the true color of one's ignorance."

Pelosi is the biggest cunt of them all

I'd love to tea bag that bitch
I wouldn't put any part of me near that creature from the liberal lagoon... eew. I would however tea bag her with a sledge hammer! [Coffee]

[Danimal]

Ahhh finally a silver lining to one shitty day.

[sniper7]

Now I want to see his ass sent to Gitmo.

[10mm-man]

108 Dems walked out, to include the Congressional Black Caucus, the Hispanic group, etc. Makes me mad to be a Hispandex sometimes when they cry racism.

Didn't say anything about "Hispanic"!! Have some PRIDE, don't be MAD....

"A large number of Democrats -- including members of the Congressional Black Caucus and House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi -- walked off the House floor in protest and refused to participate in the criminal contempt vote. A slightly smaller number of Democrats appeared to boycott the vote on the civil measure as well."

~CNN's Tom Cohen, Terry Frieden, and Deirdre Walsh contributed to this report.~

[BigDee]

Now I want to see his ass sent to Gitmo.

If it turns out that F&F was intended to increase violence in Mexico, thereby fueling the anti gun agenda and act as fuel to destroy the second amendment it could very well be considered treason. Treason would be worthy of Gitmo.

[sniper7]

If it turns out that F&F was intended to increase violence in Mexico, thereby fueling the anti gun agenda and act as fuel to destroy the second amendment it could very well be considered treason. Treason would be worthy of Gitmo.

And if it isn't, I say tie him up by his nutsack to a tree just on the mexican side of the border and let the cartel make a video.

[BPTactical]

Treason charges can only be levied in a state of declared war IIRC and only for rendering aid or shelter to the enemy.
What they can nail him on besides obstruction, withholding evidence, perjury and a few others is Federal Firearms violations and RICO. Not sure if Mexico can charge him.

Good!

Now it will be interesting what the big "O" does regarding EH.

[Mtn.man]

It'll take the gop 3 years to try his ass.

[Mtn.man]

Treason charges can only be levied in a state of declared war IIRC and only for rendering aid or shelter to the enemy.
What they can nail him on besides obstruction, withholding evidence, perjury and a few others is Federal Firearms violations and RICO. Not sure if Mexico can charge him.

Good!

Now it will be interesting what the big "O" does regarding EH.

They love him. Probably give him a mansion on the beach and asyllum.

[Mazin]

Presidential Pardon is my guess.

[Mtn.man]

Why the hell not, i mean if he is prosecuted they will all throw in the race card.

[Byte Stryke]

Treason charges can only be levied in a state of declared war IIRC and only for rendering aid or shelter to the enemy.
What they can nail him on besides obstruction, withholding evidence, perjury and a few others is Federal Firearms violations and RICO. Not sure if Mexico can charge him.

Good!

Now it will be interesting what the big "O" does regarding EH.

he was aidin' and a-beddin' dem tarrists
;)

[BUC303]

"Under Article III, Section 3, of the Constitution, any person who levies war against the United States or adheres to its enemies by giving them Aid and Comfort (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Aid+and+Comfort) has committed treason within the meaning of the Constitution. The term aid and comfort refers to any act that manifests a betrayal of allegiance to the United States, such as furnishing enemies with arms, troops, transportation, shelter, or classified information. If a subversive act has any tendency to weaken the power of the United States to attack or resist its enemies, aid and comfort has been given"

Does the war on drugs count?

[BPTactical]

"Under Article III, Section 3, of the Constitution, any person who levies war against the United States or adheres to its enemies by giving them Aid and Comfort (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Aid+and+Comfort) has committed treason within the meaning of the Constitution. The term aid and comfort refers to any act that manifests a betrayal of allegiance to the United States, such as furnishing enemies with arms, troops, transportation, shelter, or classified information. If a subversive act has any tendency to weaken the power of the United States to attack or resist its enemies, aid and comfort has been given"

Does the war on drugs count?

Pretty well describes this entire administration........[Bang]

[onebadfx4]

255-67


With that vote, its hard to cry racism. Throw that bastard in the clink ASAP.

[Scanker19]

Didn't say anything about "Hispanic"!! Have some PRIDE, don't be MAD....

"A large number of Democrats -- including members of the Congressional Black Caucus and House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi -- walked off the House floor in protest and refused to participate in the criminal contempt vote. A slightly smaller number of Democrats appeared to boycott the vote on the civil measure as well."

~CNN's Tom Cohen, Terry Frieden, and Deirdre Walsh contributed to this report.~

It was the CBC, and the Congressional Hispanic Caucus, and either the Asian or Pacific Islander one. It was on CSPAN.

From the NY times Blog page: http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/06/28/black-house-democrats-lead-walkout-during-holder-contempt-vote/


With members of the Congressional Black Caucus leading the way, more than 100 Democrats, including Nancy Pelosi, the minority leader, quietly left the House chamber during the voting. They gathered in a circle on the lawn outside the Capitol for a news conference.

“We are nonparticipants in what we believe to be a calamity,” said Representative Emanuel Cleaver II, Democrat of Missouri and chairman of the black caucus. “This is a terrible day for the House of Representatives. We did not want to participate in something that had some kind of a smell to it.”

Representative Charlie Gonzalez, Democrat of Texas and chairman of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus, said: “We stand united. We understand that Congress has the right to conduct oversight — this is not about the right of Congress to perform oversight. This is about the responsibility and duty of Congress to do it in a way that is fair and just.”



This as well.


In a Facebook message before the vote, Representative Allen B. West, a Florida Republican who has been at odds before with the black caucus, accused caucus members “and other liberal members of Congress” of judging Mr. Holder “by the color of his skin, and not by the content of his character.”

From HuffPost: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/28/eric-holder-contempt-vote-walk-out_n_1635702.html


Caucus leaders circulated a letter to Democratic lawmakers on Wednesday night urging them to leave the House floor when the vote comes up. The letter, which was obtained by The Huffington Post, was sent to members of the Hispanic Caucus, the Progressive Caucus, the Asian Pacific American Caucus and others.

[clublights]

I doubt it will go this far ......


but I bet Eric would look fabulous in Prison Jumpsuit orange. [Beer]

[TS12000]

Democrats walking out on their jobs to protest how unfair it is they got whooped? Color me surprised [ROFL2]. What a bunch of cowards, the race/class card seems to have nearly run its course of having any power and now they have little ammo at all (except of course the classic "FREE SHIT FOR EVERYONE! [Beer] HOW COULD THIS POSSIBLY GO WRONG?)

[BPTactical]

Democrats walking out on their jobs to protest how unfair it is they got whooped? Color me surprised [ROFL2]. What a bunch of cowards, the race/class card seems to have nearly run its course of having any power and now they have little ammo at all (except of course the classic "FREE SHIT FOR EVERYONE! [Beer] HOW COULD THIS POSSIBLY GO WRONG?)

We saw just what voting public thinks of their elected officials when they walk out on their jobs like spoiled kids.
Wisconsin comes to mind.

[Scanker19]

Guys lets be nice to them or they'll hold their breath, until they get their way.

[Irving]

Everyone who walked out should have been arrested on the front lawn for refusing to do their elected duties.

[sniper7]

Everyone who walked out should have been arrested on the front lawn for refusing to do their elected duties.

Yes, and then lost their job for not doing their job. they were elected to VOTE...that is about it. they didn't so their job, so they need to be replaced.

[MuzzleFlash]

Coulter is all over and up in the face of these lefttards:

http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2012-06-27.html#read_more

[Rucker61]

Yes, and then lost their job for not doing their job. they were elected to VOTE...that is about it. they didn't so their job, so they need to be replaced.

Man, for folks who claim to be so pro-Constitutional, you sure are suggesting that we violate the Constitution quite often. Admittedly, it was a childish action, but hardly a crime.

[Rucker61]

Coulter is all over and up in the face of these lefttards:

http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2012-06-27.html#read_more

"The Biggest Scandal in US History"? Bigger than Watergate, Monicagate, Bayof Pigs, the manufacured WMD evidence or the Teapot Dome scandals? Sheesh.

And for you conspiracy theorists, let's include the Bush Administration allowing 9/11, the CIA killing Kennedy, FDR allowing Pearl Harbor and Adam Weishaupt acting as George Washington. <== None true, by the way. except maybe that Illuminati thing.

[clublights]

where is my popcorn ............ this is about to get REAL good............[Pop]

[clublights]

"The Biggest Scandal in US History"? Bigger than Watergate, Monicagate, Bayof Pigs, the manufacured WMD evidence or the Teapot Dome scandals? Sheesh.

And for you conspiracy theorists, let's include the Bush Administration allowing 9/11, the CIA killing Kennedy, FDR allowing Pearl Harbor and Adam Weishaupt acting as George Washington. <== None true, by the way. except maybe that Illuminati thing.

Screw it ...... I'm not gunna bother to wait for someone else to start in on this..
Even tho I know better then to post after drinking( hey I "just" got home from working at the club all night ..we have a few cocktails after work ) I gunna do it anyways .

Watergate: No one died.

Monicagate No one died.

Bay of pigs: yeah folks died.. does that mean it's ok to do that shit now?

"the manufacured WMD evidence" manufactured? naw...Bush and company got told what they wanted to hear, doesn't make it right but it is what happened.

Tea Dome: never heard of it till today... but again .. no one died from what I can see in my limited research.

Bush Admin ALLOWED September 11th? ( and for fucks sake type it all out have some damn respect for the 3000+ murdered that day and take the 2 seconds to type the whole word. Admittedly this is a HUGE pet peeve of mine) RIGHT.. Bush was supposedly this huge idiot yet got away with the HUGEST crime EVER known to man .. yeah try again.

CIA killed Kennedy. yeah again no evidence has ever come to REAL light. cuz every reporter would not be all over that story with real evidence in a quarter of a new york second. lets get some brain power working here.

FDR and Pearl harbor? really ? again .. why has there not been real evidence? sure mistakes were made but not by design... by MISTAKE!. ( If you don't think that F&F by design killed folks what the fuck you think the cartels were gunna do with the guns? sit around singing campfire songs?)

Adam Weishaupt acting as George Washington. ? I have no clue about this .. and frankly I'm too wound up to bother looking it up right now after all the rest.

( and yes I got the " not true except" part you put at the end.. but if you feel the need to type stuff as retarded as that.. expect to get made fun of for it too.)

[clublights]

s1G5x0XmNiA


Even Holder Admits ( after trying to use semantics.. rather FAIL style ) That Fast and Furious made NO attempt to track the weapons and was COMPLETELY different then Operation Wide Receiver. That F&F was started under HIS watch, and that the Mexicans were NOT informed.

[Rucker61]

Screw it ...... I'm not gunna bother to wait for someone else to start in on this..
Even tho I know better then to post after drinking( hey I "just" got home from working at the club all night ..we have a few cocktails after work ) I gunna do it anyways .

Watergate: No one died.

Monicagate No one died.

Bay of pigs: yeah folks died.. does that mean it's ok to do that shit now?


Which part of all of this is your issue: that FFLs in the US had been selling many guns to straw purchasers that then sold the guns to agents of drug cartels that smuggle them into Mexico or kept them in the US for use in crimes, and had done so for years before the ATF got involved, and continue to do so; that the government ran a sting operation, similar to one that had been run before, to interdicst those sales; that they lost accountability for some of the guns; some of those lost guns were used to kill two US agents in the performance of their duties; the Administration is not releasing detailed documents of the Operation.

It's a tragedy that our agents lost their lives; no one is disputing that. Yesterday's contempt of Congress ruling shows that the Administration will be held accountable to Congressional requests. However, I don't think we can hold F&F responsible for the level of violence we see coming from the cartels. Here's an article from Fox News:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/02/myth-percent-small-fraction-guns-mexico-come/

Here's an excerpt:

"
In 2007-2008, according to ATF Special Agent William Newell, Mexico submitted 11,000 guns to the ATF for tracing. Close to 6,000 were successfully traced -- and of those, 90 percent -- 5,114 to be exact, according to testimony in Congress by William Hoover -- were found to have come from the U.S.
But in those same two years, according to the Mexican government, 29,000 guns were recovered at crime scenes"

The number for OFF show less than 2k arms were walked. Again, the deaths of our agents is a tragedy, but do you really think that if the 2000 guns from OFF hadn't made it into Mexico that the perps that killed our agents wouldn't have had a gun?

The portion of OFF that allowed walking was ill-advised and against standing policy. Since the folks that allowed it are the ones who make policy, I don't consider it illegal. Unfortunately, stupidity isn't illegal. The ATF should simply track the straw buyers to their rendesvous and arrest all parties. Those are crimes committed on US soil, and since some of those guns never get to Mexico but remain in the US in the hands of criminals, it makes sense to protect American lives.

[Rucker61]

s1G5x0XmNiA


Even Holder Admits ( after trying to use semantics.. rather FAIL style ) That Fast and Furious made NO attempt to track the weapons and was COMPLETELY different then Operation Wide Receiver. That F&F was started under HIS watch, and that the Mexicans were NOT informed.

Stupid, but not illegal. Really stupid, considering how many weapons already flow into Mexico from other sources. Covering up a crime is illegal, of course, and if it's show that they did, they should suffer the consequences. I don't know that covering up stupidity is illegal. It will most likely affect the re-election, however.

[clublights]

Stupid, but not illegal. Really stupid, considering how many weapons already flow into Mexico from other sources. Covering up a crime is illegal, of course, and if it's show that they did, they should suffer the consequences. I don't know that covering up stupidity is illegal. It will most likely affect the re-election, however.

Not Illegal?? I guess if you ignore ITAR.


EDIT:

You try running guns to mexico .. see how well that works out for you.

[clublights]

Which part of all of this is your issue: that FFLs in the US had been selling many guns to straw purchasers that then sold the guns to agents of drug cartels that smuggle them into Mexico or kept them in the US for use in crimes, and had done so for years( Two wrongs don't make a right) before the ATF got involved,(The ATF is supposed to in force laws not break them) and continue to do so; that the government ran a sting operation, similar( not really) to one that had been run before,( and FAILED which is why it was ended in 2007) to interdicst those sales( nope no effort was made to stop them infact FFL's were ORDERED to complete the sales) ; that they lost accountability for some( MOST) of the guns; some of those lost guns were used to kill two US agents( and 300+ Mexican Nationals.. that we KNOW of) in the performance of their duties; the Administration is not releasing detailed documents of the Operation.( to cover up the crime)

It's a tragedy that our agents lost their lives; no one is disputing that. Yesterday's contempt of Congress ruling shows that the Administration will be held accountable to Congressional requests. However, I don't think we can hold F&F responsible for the level of violence we see coming from the cartels. Here's an article from Fox News:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/02/myth-percent-small-fraction-guns-mexico-come/

Here's an excerpt:

"
In 2007-2008, according to ATF Special Agent William Newell, Mexico submitted 11,000 guns to the ATF for tracing. Close to 6,000 were successfully traced -- and of those, 90 percent -- 5,114 to be exact, according to testimony in Congress by William Hoover -- were found to have come from the U.S.
But in those same two years, according to the Mexican government, 29,000 guns were recovered at crime scenes"

The number for OFF show less than 2k arms were walked. Again, the deaths of our agents is a tragedy, but do you really think that if the 2000 guns from OFF hadn't made it into Mexico that the perps that killed our agents wouldn't have had a gun?( so the statement" hey they woulda got em anyways.. so it's ok to give them the guns " really sits ok with you ????)

The portion of OFF( all of F&F Was letting the cartels walk with the guns) that allowed walking was ill-advised and against standing policy. Since the folks that allowed it are the ones who make policy, I don't consider it illegal.( so you make the law your ABOVE the law??? are you fucking kidding me ? ) Unfortunately, stupidity isn't illegal. The ATF should simply track the straw buyers to their rendesvous and arrest all parties.( they tried that in OWR in 2006-07 it didn't work then either) Those are crimes committed on US soil, and since some of those guns never get to Mexico but remain in the US in the hands of criminals, it makes sense to protect American lives.
Read the RED parts

[Rucker61]

Not Illegal?? I guess if you ignore ITAR.

I'm looking at that right now, and I guess this is where the lawyers will make a mint. The ATF in OWR or OFF didn't directly export the guns to Mexico or domestic criminals. It's fairly obvious that failing to act to prevent a crime in a government operation isn't necessarily a crime, or we'd have to shut down all stings operations by all LEOs. IANAL, but if we consider bureaucracies in the Executive branch to be acting with the authority and knowledge of the President, then Section 128.1 could be viewed as making the actions of the ATF to be outside the purview of the ITAR. Again, I am not a lawyer and this was just a cursory skimming of a couple of sections of the ITAR.

[clublights]

I'm looking at that right now, and I guess this is where the lawyers will make a mint. The ATF in OWR or OFF didn't directly export the guns to Mexico or domestic criminals. It's fairly obvious that failing to act to prevent a crime in a government operation isn't necessarily a crime, or we'd have to shut down all stings operations by all LEOs. IANAL, but if we consider bureaucracies in the Executive branch to be acting with the authority and knowledge of the President, then Section 128.1 could be viewed as making the actions of the ATF to be outside the purview of the ITAR. Again, I am not a lawyer and this was just a cursory skimming of a couple of sections of the ITAR.

Maybe ITAR is not QUITE right ...

Maybe more AECA

but put is this way...

If we could even half prove Iran gave 2000 guns to terrorists ( are the cartels really THAT different from the taliban/ AQ? ) and they used those guns to kill 300+ Americans on american soil, we would just shrug it off?

I think most folks ( esp the ones around here) would call it an Act of War. I can't believe the Mexican Government has stood by and not said a word.

And THAT is how you KNOW Obama was involved.

[Rucker61]

Which part of all of this is your issue: that FFLs in the US had been selling many guns to straw purchasers that then sold the guns to agents of drug cartels that smuggle them into Mexico or kept them in the US for use in crimes, and had done so for years( Two wrongs don't make a right)

Not two wrongs: hundreds of wrongs. The ATF only got involved after the straw purchasing of weapons by US citizens for criminals grew to such a volume that it: came to their attention, and wasn’t being handled by state and local authorities. ATF didn’t start the volume gun trade to Mexico.


before the ATF got involved,(The ATF is supposed to enforce laws not break them)


All law enforcement agencies are purposed to enforce laws, and many of them at all levels run sting operations. OWR and OFF were sting operations, both poorly considered and managed. Still, pretty normal stuff for LE.



and continue to do so; that the government ran a sting operation, similar( not really)


More similar than dissimilar in the macro sense. Let guns flow from FFLs to straw buyers to cartel purchasers, then (the stupid part in both operations) let them move across the border. What that was supposed to accomplish is beyond me. The crimes occurred on US soil, make the arrests there.



to one that had been run before,( and FAILED which is why it was ended in 2007)

Agreed. No idea why they thought it was a good idea, unless to gain some political capital. Can’t blame them for the desire for political capital, as all politicians do that, but poorly advised and executed.



to interdict those sales( nope no effort was made to stop them

Let’s change “interdict” to “follow to the high-ranking individuals running the import operations”, which given the numbers of weapons flowing into Mexico from other sources, and the likely ease of someone else taking over or creating a weapons import operation, is a stupid objective at best.



in fact FFL's were ORDERED to complete the sales)

Granted, as it was necessary for the sting operation. However, in the Fox News article referenced earlier, it was reported that in 2007-2008, 5114 guns were found to have been purchased in the US. FFLs were forced to make those sales, and they continue to make them today, without ATF pressure, else the government wouldn’t be looking to make the changes to the reporting requirements to the ATF.




; that they lost accountability for some( MOST)



Some and most have the same meaning here.



of the guns; some of those lost guns were used to kill two US agents( and 300+ Mexican Nationals.. that we KNOW of)


I’ll accept that figure without a cite, but how many of these death would still have occurred with weapons imported from other sources? How many Mexican nationals died in total from gang violence? The New York Times reported in January of this year that the Mexican government claimed 47,515 deaths to due drug violence since 2006. We can blame the ATF and DOJ for running a stupid operation, but it’s hardly logical to assume that if OWR and OFF had not been run that all of the deaths related to it would have been avoided.



in the performance of their duties; the Administration is not releasing detailed documents of the Operation.( to cover up the crime)


What’s the crime again?





It's a tragedy that our agents lost their lives; no one is disputing that. Yesterday's contempt of Congress ruling shows that the Administration will be held accountable to Congressional requests. However, I don't think we can hold F&F responsible for the level of violence we see coming from the cartels. Here's an article from Fox News:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...s-mexico-come/ (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/02/myth-percent-small-fraction-guns-mexico-come/)

Here's an excerpt:

"
In 2007-2008, according to ATF Special Agent William Newell, Mexico submitted 11,000 guns to the ATF for tracing. Close to 6,000 were successfully traced -- and of those, 90 percent -- 5,114 to be exact, according to testimony in Congress by William Hoover -- were found to have come from the U.S.
But in those same two years, according to the Mexican government, 29,000 guns were recovered at crime scenes"

The number for OFF show less than 2k arms were walked. Again, the deaths of our agents is a tragedy, but do you really think that if the 2000 guns from OFF hadn't made it into Mexico that the perps that killed our agents wouldn't have had a gun?( so the statement" hey they woulda got em anyways.. so it's ok to give them the guns " really sits ok with you ????)


Sits okay? No, not really, but I’m not naïve enough to believe that it would have made a material difference . Not interdicting the guns at the point of transfer was a bad idea. We’ve since changed policy to prevent walking in the future. If allowing guns to reach the cartels is a crime, then we’ve got two sets of folks to arrest and prosecute, don’t we?



The portion of OFF( all of F&F Was letting the cartels walk with the guns)

Perhaps “portion” is too nebulous of a word. Let’s go with “goal”



that allowed walking was ill-advised and against standing policy. Since the folks that allowed it are the ones who make policy, I don't consider it illegal.( so you make the law your ABOVE the law??? are you fucking kidding me ? )

LEOs run sting operations which allow laws to be broken all of this time. Are you shutting those down? Walking violated standing policy, true, but that in itself is not a crime. Your earlier point about the ITAR seems to be the logical area to look for a crime, but that isn’t clear, either.



Unfortunately, stupidity isn't illegal. The ATF should simply track the straw buyers to their rendesvous and arrest all parties.( they tried that in OWR in 2006-07 it didn't work then either)

So you don’t want to arrest either the straw buyers or the cartel purchasers? Is it your belief then that that these gun sales should continue unabated or impeded, even if those guns end up in the hands of criminals on US soil to be used against US citizens?

[Rucker61]

Maybe ITAR is not QUITE right ...

Maybe more AECA

but put is this way...

If we could even half prove Iran gave 2000 guns to terrorists ( are the cartels really THAT different from the taliban/ AQ? ) and they used those guns to kill 300+ Americans on american soil, we would just shrug it off?

I think most folks ( esp the ones around here) would call it an Act of War. I can't believe the Mexican Government has stood by and not said a word.

And THAT is how you KNOW Obama was involved.

If the US government gave 2000 guns to Mexican terrorists, then it is an Act of War. But they didn't. I will grant that the ATF coerced the FFLs to sell the weapons to US citizens, but neither of those acts are crimes, and the FFLs seemed willing enough on their own to sell weapons to straw purchasers. They weren't interdicted, but proving failure to act to be a crime will be difficult. I believe I've read that the SCOTUS has ruled the LEOs in this country aren't required to get involved in preventing an active crime.

What is Obama's involvement here? Preventing the Mexican government from declaring war on the US? I don't think I'm seeing what you're seeing. Can you enlighten me?

[spqrzilla]

Rucker61, it is nothing short of astonishing that you keep trying to make the same discredited claims.

Is your interest defending Obama? Or is your interest some other partisan goal?

The ATF, with the cooperation of the DOJ and other agencies like the FBI, coerced gun dealers into selling to straw purchasers that the gun dealers themselves reported to the ATF. The ATF did so with no plan to track the firearms. The ATF did so not only not informing the Mexican government of the operation, but intentionally concealing the operation from even the ATF liaison in Mexico City.

There was no legitimate law enforcement purpose for this operation. It resulted in the deaths of hundreds of Mexicans and several US Federal agents. Its only purpose was to generate traceable US guns at Mexican crime scenes for bolstering the political case for additional gun control. After the Obama administration had been embarrassed by being caught in lies about the number of US firearms being traced in Mexico. Indeed, it was brazenly used to support the illegal demand of additional reporting by dealers without statutory authorization.

Your attempt to deflect from that has been and remains laughable.

The continual attempt to blame Bush by Obama and his sycophants? Too juvenile for words. My advice to you Obama fans? Grow the F up.

[sniper7]

Man, for folks who claim to be so pro-Constitutional, you sure are suggesting that we violate the Constitution quite often. Admittedly, it was a childish action, but hardly a crime.

you truly are a liberal tool. Please think about that today before you open your mouth.

[sniper7]

and now Rucker you are on my ignore list. I suggest everyone else follows. These is no point is listening to your pathetic reasoning. If I want to read slanted liberal drivel I can read CNN.

[spqrzilla]

And as for there being no crime, obviously Patrick Cunningham thinks that there was a crime committed.

Else he would not be pleading the Fifth Amendment to avoid testimony on his role as the US Attorney's office in Phoenix in the operation. And resigned.

Its amazing how many of your pronouncements, Rucker61, rely upon merely ignoring all that's occurred in the scandal. It reminds me of Jay Carney's statements being literally laughed at by the White House press corps.

[Ronin13]

Wow... just wow... Sniper I agree, Rucker seems to be one of those libtards. To his little paragraph I just have to say TL,DR.

The fact remains, Brian Terry's blood is on both Holder and Obama's dirty little grubby hands. If this "operation" hadn't been concocted by whatever anti-gun retard in the DOJ there wouldn't have been countless innocent deaths in Mexico, there wouldn't be a ton more guns in the hands of the cartel, and Agent Terry would still be alive and working dilligently to patrol our most porous border. The DOJ is a bunch of morons, if they really think the majority of the cartels arms come from straw purchases from US FFLs they're really dumb. Several instances of violence by the cartels are committed with NFA weapons, there have been several intelligence reports that indicate the use of full auto weapons obviously not obtained from North of the border. Some estimates count only 15-20% of firearms used by the cartels actually come from the US. [Bang]

[CrufflerSteve]

I am so surprised. The (In)Justice Department won't prosecute the head of the department.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/house-republicans-win-contempt-vote-against-attorney-general-holder-but-legal-dispute-ahead/2012/06/29/gJQAO90xAW_story.html?wpisrc=al_comboNP_p

I just thought they'd drag it out a bit more but the government does prefer to dump on the public on Friday afternoons.

Steve

[lifeon2]

[Shock]this is my shocked face.