View Full Version : Color case hardening
So, I taught a class today on how to do color case hardening. I used a Sears .410 that I am going to end up rebarreling in .223 most likely. Anyway, here is my project receiver that I did today along with two test plates:
http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/asrspyder/DSCN2057.jpg
http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/asrspyder/DSCN2056.jpg
argonstrom
06-29-2012, 19:21
That is awesome!
Pretty cool. Next time you are really bored you could try that with a 1911 slide. [Awesom]
Pretty cool. Next time you are really bored you could try that with a 1911 slide. [Awesom]
That would ruin your slide... it would break because it would be too hard/brittle for a part that takes abuse like that. I didn't do it to the hammer that goes to the gun because the last one I did, broke on my classmates gun. I am working on other process though to get some really nice colors that don't take too much heat to make. [Beer]
barney fife
06-29-2012, 19:34
Those look great!
That would ruin your slide... it would break because it would be too hard/brittle for a part that takes abuse like that.
I had no idea. I just remember Olympic Arms used to offer a case hardened 1911 and I always thought it was kind of cool.
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff184/steel609/Westerner/P1010245.jpg
That is very cool, I wonder why they stopped making them though?
kidicarus13
06-30-2012, 14:36
Volkmann also does case hardening for 1911s...
http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m513/kidicarus13/railway_1_payday.jpg
Colorado Osprey
06-30-2012, 18:16
Oly still makes them. They come in 3 sizes
http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.pbv.v8.tpl&category_id=9&product_id=130&Itemid=5
Trail Boss
http://olyarms.net/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/pistol-1911/full-trailboss.jpg
Westerner
http://olyarms.net/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/pistol-1911/full-westerner.jpg
Constable
http://olyarms.net/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/pistol-1911/full-constable.jpg
I just emailed them as a very interested customer... I wanted to know how they were able to pull it off basically. Lets see if they answer. [Beer]
Rattler347
07-02-2012, 10:10
The Westerner Series from Olympic Arms (who's 1911 line was formerly known as Safari Arms, Inc, when M.S. Safari was purchased back in 1989) and shown in the previous pictures is a highly sought after line of 1911 that are in perpetual demand and therefore, perpetual back-order status.
The process used to create the case-colored look is in fact an old-school arsenic/calcium based process used to harden steel with the much desired case-cloring actually being a bi-product of the process. In the Old West, when metallic cartridge engineering was out-pacing the engineering of carbon steels, this process was introduced to add the necessary strength to the metals, and the coloring associated with the process was most often polished off. Now, it is the coloring that is desired and hardening.
Most current methods of case coloring are either simply heat relayed, or are a modified formula no longer like the original (because of the arsenic content), and require a great deal more heat than is used in the original process. Therfore comparing most commonly used methods with the original old-school methods is akin to the 'apples/oranges' argument.
This process used by Olympic is (because of the hazardous material issues) is contracted out, and is highly controlled, and while it does add significant tensile strength to the materials (in this case 4140 Chromemoly steel), it is simply not permitted to become brittle. This is controlled by factors such as chemical balance, heat and time in the bath. First produced in 2002, the Westerner Series was not officially cataloged by Olympic until 2004 as decisions were being made to handle volume, logistics, settling on models and options etc, as the first production models filtered through the system.
Let me be adamant in stating that outright dogmatic statements as we have seen here in this thread, or any suggestions or intimations that Case Color Hardening would "ruin your slide", or that, "it would break because it would be too hard/brittle for a part that takes abuse like that", are patently false, are made without any scientific basis in fact. Making such statements without a full understanding of the process is moot in any regards. With a 35 year history in the firearms industry, and a ten year history of the series with 8 of those years as some of the most heavily demanded 1911's on the market, the track record thus for for Olympic Arms Westerner Series 1911's speaks for itself.
May it also be noted that Kimber produced a 100 Year Commemorative model 1911 with a Case-color hardening finish as well.
I appreciate the opportunity to respond to this issue directly to your forums. If you have any questions or comments concerning the Westerner Series, please address then to me directly, and I'll be happy to address them.
Sincerely,
Tom Spithaler
Sales Director
Olympic Arms, Inc.
800-228-3471
tom@olyarms.com
argonstrom
07-02-2012, 20:38
Thanks for taking the time to register on our site and responding to the question - that speaks volumes about your company.
I'm lucky enough to own a Constable - it is quite nice.
Colorado Osprey
07-03-2012, 19:21
Want to thank Tom aka "Rattler" for stopping in and setting it straight.
Tinelement
07-03-2012, 19:40
Spyder,
This crap is awesome!!! Just like the mill work on your Glocks, outstanding dude!!!!
Awesome you are willing to take a run at doing this stuff, learning it, and then sharing it with us. Keep it up! I enjoy seeing it!
[Awesom]
The Westerner Series from Olympic Arms (who's 1911 line was formerly known as Safari Arms, Inc, when M.S. Safari was purchased back in 1989) and shown in the previous pictures is a highly sought after line of 1911 that are in perpetual demand and therefore, perpetual back-order status.
The process used to create the case-colored look is in fact an old-school arsenic/calcium based process used to harden steel with the much desired case-cloring actually being a bi-product of the process. In the Old West, when metallic cartridge engineering was out-pacing the engineering of carbon steels, this process was introduced to add the necessary strength to the metals, and the coloring associated with the process was most often polished off. Now, it is the coloring that is desired and hardening.
Most current methods of case coloring are either simply heat relayed, or are a modified formula no longer like the original (because of the arsenic content), and require a great deal more heat than is used in the original process. Therfore comparing most commonly used methods with the original old-school methods is akin to the 'apples/oranges' argument.
This process used by Olympic is (because of the hazardous material issues) is contracted out, and is highly controlled, and while it does add significant tensile strength to the materials (in this case 4140 Chromemoly steel), it is simply not permitted to become brittle. This is controlled by factors such as chemical balance, heat and time in the bath. First produced in 2002, the Westerner Series was not officially cataloged by Olympic until 2004 as decisions were being made to handle volume, logistics, settling on models and options etc, as the first production models filtered through the system.
Let me be adamant in stating that outright dogmatic statements as we have seen here in this thread, or any suggestions or intimations that Case Color Hardening would "ruin your slide", or that, "it would break because it would be too hard/brittle for a part that takes abuse like that", are patently false, are made without any scientific basis in fact. Making such statements without a full understanding of the process is moot in any regards. With a 35 year history in the firearms industry, and a ten year history of the series with 8 of those years as some of the most heavily demanded 1911's on the market, the track record thus for for Olympic Arms Westerner Series 1911's speaks for itself.
May it also be noted that Kimber produced a 100 Year Commemorative model 1911 with a Case-color hardening finish as well.
I appreciate the opportunity to respond to this issue directly to your forums. If you have any questions or comments concerning the Westerner Series, please address then to me directly, and I'll be happy to address them.
Sincerely,
Tom Spithaler
Sales Director
Olympic Arms, Inc.
800-228-3471
tom@olyarms.com
The way I was shown involves a kiln, 1375 degree temps, charcoal, and an air bubbled drum of cold water. The crucible that the part is in comes directly out of the kiln at 1375, the part is then dumped out of the crucible and into the cold water quenching it seconds after the kiln door opens... You are saying that this process would not hurt a 1911 slide?
I am very interested in knowing this because from what I have been told, this process would hurt a slide. Hell, if it doesn't though... I'll have a color case hardened sub-compact here soon.
jreifsch80
07-04-2012, 09:22
i remember hearing about a guy that used human bone meal for color case hardening, supposedly gave it the best look (i heard he legally got human bone meal from india or something)
i remember hearing about a guy that used human bone meal for color case hardening, supposedly gave it the best look (i heard he legally got human bone meal from india or something)
That is the third time I've heard that also, I'll have to check in on it more! [Beer]
So, I'm done trying to find out info from the Olympic Arms guy, what an ass. I figured he got something wrong, I don't know how many people understand that I didn't say that Olympic Arms 1911's sucked or would break, but, I didn't. I told one guy that I couldn't do his 1911 the way I did my parts because the way in which I did it, would be bad for his slide. Now, I didn't know that there were other ways of color case hardening. As a matter of fact I didn't know about the Olympic Arms, or any other 1911's that were color case hardened at all. They looked old, and I thought they were out of production actually (something from back in the day). I was curious about how those companies had done their color casing. Anyway, after reading his response (Thomas from Olympic Arms), I decided to email him, actually I just sent my last email to the guy, this is how it all went down, and why he can go fuck himself:
This reads from top to bottom.
From: spyder
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 6:27 AM
To: tom@olyarms.com (tom@olyarms.com)
Subject: color case hardened 1911
Hello, I was doing some color case hardening and mentioned it in a forum in which you stepped in on. I was wondering about the kind of color casing you guy do vs what I did to my project piece and the differences? Mine of course was the simple version which anyone can do at home with a kiln and no special chemicals or gasses. It was just bringing the parts up to 1375 degrees in a packed crucible for a couple hours at temp, and then quenching them really fast. I was under the impression that this process would not be good on a slide, or reciever that would be under high pressure. What can you tell me about this?
Adam
************************************************** ************************************************** *************************
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas A. Spithaler <tom@olyarms.com (tom@olyarms.com)>
To: spyder
Sent: Tue, Jul 10, 2012 8:09 am
Subject: RE: color case hardened 1911
Adam,
Glad you got back to me.
The problem with your note today, is that it softens your dogmatic statements made in a public forum with regards to products produced by Olympic Arms. In that forum you stated emphatically, and I quote (speaking of the Olympic Arms case color hardening process):
“That would ruin your slide..”
When you made that comment, you did not implore a caveat, or say it “might” ruin your slide. You did not say that it could “damage” the slide. You simply stated, as a fact, “That would ruin your slide..” and did so with NO KNOWLEDGE WHATSOEVER of the process that Olympic Arms used to product their 1911’s – and the fact of the matter is – your statement is wrong.
And not only that, you went on to say,
“it would break because it would be too hard/brittle for a part that takes abuse like that.”
You made these statements in a dogmatic fashion as you are making a factual statement. These are not read as guesses, they are not stated to be your assumptions, you made these statements from the point of fact – yet the facts are, you are wrong.
Now that your comments have been “stepped on”, as if I’m the bad guy here, you send a light hearted letter asking questions rather than making apologies. You did not apologize for making false statements on the forum, and you did not apologize for making those statements in this letter to me. All you are doing now, is admitting by intimation, that your method of case color hardening may be different, and that based on these differences, the Olympic Arms product might actually be safe to use, by asking how we do ours.
I made my comments on your forum simply to set the record straight. If you had asked questions regarding the process from the beginning, rather than making false statements as factual ones, while at the same time laying accusations and judgments at the feet of the quality of Olympic Arms products, this would have turned out quite differently. You made your choice to make a statement, I made mine and corrected it.
Now to address your questions, yes, our process is considerably different. It is successful, as it has been for over a hundred years, and involves a controlled chemical heat-bath process that treats, hardens and colors the metals as a by-product. It is the same method that has been used by other major firearms manufacturers over the years in bolt guns and lever action rifles. The process has changed some to improve safety to the gunsmith, while at the same time providing an excellent, strong, and long lasting product.
Humility is a quality that is lost on most men, but is yet the single most important guideline to success.
I’ll close this by saying that the unfettered dissemination of misinformation is the single most contributing factor to the poor reputation that has befallen the firearms industry. We, as a group, not just as manufacturers, but as forum community members, have a responsibility to ourselves, and to the greater community at large, to make certain that every statement we made, is made with the clear knowledge of it being FACT, or OPINION. You made the mistake of stating an opinion (based on the knowledge you had available to you at the time), as if it were FACT. My goal, while certainly biased by the fact that it is my personal responsibility to protect the reputation of the product that the company I work for, is guided by the greater good to make certain that any statement that is expressed as fact and is not, be corrected.
The truth, in the end, is far more important than any other single factor. It is our duty to protect it.
Tom Spithaler
Sales Dir.
Olympic Arms, Inc.
www.olyarms.com (http://www.olyarms.com/)
1-800-228-3471
FAX: 360-491-3447
************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** ***********************
From: spyder
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 11:46 AM
To: tom@olyarms.com (tom@olyarms.com)
Subject: Re: color case hardened 1911
Thomas,
I gather from your email, that you read what I said on the forum wrong. You need to go back and read it again, slowly this time. I did not say that your firearms were in any way defective due to the color case hardening process. I need to make this clear because you seem to be on the defensive right now. The direct link is here: http://www.ar-15.co/forums/showthread.php?t=55763 (http://www.ar-15.co/forums/showthread.php?t=55763) What I think you might be referring to is post #7. In that post, I am quoted, "That would ruin your slide... it would break because it would be too hard/brittle for a part that takes abuse like that." I said that in post #5. I in no way shape or form said that your guns would break. The guy in post #7 was merely quoting me, in a questionable way, as, "if you said this, how can these guys make this 1911". As a matter of fact, I went on to say in post #8, "That is very cool, I wonder why they stopped making them though?", this is my only mistake that I would need to say sorry for because I guess you guys are still making them (I didn't know that). I then went on to post this, post #11, "I just emailed them as a very interested customer... I wanted to know how they were able to pull it off basically. Lets see if they answer." The next post is your post.
I emailed you in a friendly manner because I decided not to take your post as an attack, but merely as a misunderstanding. I hope you will go read the posts again and realize your mistake. I was commenting how the way I was doing it, would ruin a slide. Again, I didn't say that your process, or guns in general were poorly made in any way. I actually expressed a want to know how you were able to do it without sacrificing strength and durability.
Thanks for your time.
Adam
************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** ***************************
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas A. Spithaler <tom@olyarms.com (tom@olyarms.com)>
To: spyder
Sent: Tue, Jul 10, 2012 4:29 pm
Subject: RE: color case hardened 1911
Sorry, but I quoted you in context, no need to re-read them, “slowly this time…”
The only reason that I even addressed the post was because I had several readers email and or call me commenting on your post – all of them thinking their slides and or guns might brake based on your comments. I’m not the only person that interpreted the comments the way that I did.
If you have legitimate questions and desire to learn, I’m here to help. Otherwise, please make certain that your public comments are factual before you post them. If you had posted your questions first, we’d be in a whole different situation.
Tom Spithaler
Sales Dir.
Olympic Arms, Inc.
www.olyarms.com (http://www.olyarms.com/)
1-800-228-3471
FAX: 360-491-3447
************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** ***************************
From: spyder
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 5:29 PM
To: tom@olyarms.com (tom@olyarms.com)
Subject: Re: color case hardened 1911
Wow, I didn't expect such arrogance out of a "professional". Anyway, if you ever feel like taking the time to educate yourself on what was really going on, feel free. I see however you are one of those guys that already knows everything so anything that I might say, will have no effect. Anyway, I owe you no apology as I have said nothing bad. If you're not smart enough to set the readers with questions straight without blindly bashing someone else, I have no use talking with you as most like you are usually ass holes, and I can find the information somewhere else.
Oh, and it's break, not brake.
So, basically, here is the ending to all of this... There is more than one way to color case a gun or metal parts. The way in which I did it, from what I have been told by the people who taught me, is that it would probably ruin the slide (and has ruined other student's slides in the past). Now, how does Olympics color casing work? I have no idea, but it is different than the way I did it. I tried to find out, but you can see where I got. Anyway, there ya have it.
Rattler347
07-11-2012, 08:07
. There is more than one way to color case a gun or metal parts. The way in which I did it, from what I have been told by the people who taught me, is that it would probably ruin the slide (and has ruined other student's slides in the past). Now, how does Olympics color casing work? I have no idea, but it is different than the way I did it. I tried to find out, but you can see where I got. Anyway, there ya have it.
Mr. Adam Rogers,
If you'd had made your earlier dogmatic statements in the manner you did above, you could have avoided this whole discussion. But you did not. You made a positive statement based on your limited understanding, when the reality is, you had no idea how the process used by Olympic Arms works, or how it affects the material upon which the process is delivered. If this has caused you embarrassment, I do apologize, but I quoted in context, and quoted you exactly. Everyone who read your comments understands your earlier remarks are intimating that providing a case color hardened finish to a 1911 slide would (And I quote you again) "ruin it". I did not choose those words, YOU did, and I do not know how they can be misunderstood.
If anyone reading this has any questions with regards to the process, I'll make you the same offer I have made Mr. Adam Rogers, the real author behind the remarks of "spyder", I'm happy to address them. I can be reached at tom@olyarms.com.
kidicarus13
07-11-2012, 08:12
Well, I guess we got that straightened out.
Goodburbon
07-11-2012, 09:05
Mr. Adam [Censor],
If you'd had made your earlier dogmatic statements in the manner you did above, you could have avoided this whole discussion. But you did not. You made a positive statement based on your limited understanding, when the reality is, you had no idea how the process used by Olympic Arms works, or how it affects the material upon which the process is delivered. If this has caused you embarrassment, I do apologize, but I quoted in context, and quoted you exactly. Everyone who read your comments understands your earlier remarks are intimating that providing a case color hardened finish to a 1911 slide would (And I quote you again) "ruin it". I did not choose those words, YOU did, and I do not know how they can be misunderstood.
If anyone reading this has any questions with regards to the process, I'll make you the same offer I have made Mr. Adam [Censor], the real author behind the remarks of "spyder", I'm happy to address them. I can be reached at tom@olyarms.com.
What a wonderful display of vindictive posting from a manufacturing rep. who apparently lacks reading comprehension skills.
IBTL
So, I taught a class today on color case hardening. I used a Sears .410 that I am going to end up rebarreling in .223 most likely. Anyway, here is my project receiver that I did today along with two test plates:
Nice!
That is awesome!
Pretty cool. Next time you are really bored you could try that with a 1911 slide. [Awesom]
That would ruin your slide... it would break because it would be too hard/brittle for a part that takes abuse like that. I didn't do it to the hammer that goes to the gun because the last one I did, broke on my classmates gun. I am working on other process though to get some really nice colors that don't take too much heat to make. [Beer]
Those look great!
I had no idea. I just remember Olympic Arms used to offer a case hardened 1911 and I always thought it was kind of cool.
That is very cool, I wonder why they stopped making them though?
Volkmann also does case hardening for 1911s...
Oly still makes them. They come in 3 sizes
I just emailed them as a very interested customer... I wanted to know how they were able to pull it off basically. Lets see if they answer. [Beer]
.....................................
Mr. Adam [Censor],
If you'd had made your earlier dogmatic statements in the manner you did above, you could have avoided this whole discussion. But you did not. You made a positive statement based on your limited understanding, when the reality is, you had no idea how the process used by Olympic Arms works, or how it affects the material upon which the process is delivered. If this has caused you embarrassment, I do apologize, but I quoted in context, and quoted you exactly. Everyone who read your comments understands your earlier remarks are intimating that providing a case color hardened finish to a 1911 slide would (And I quote you again) "ruin it". I did not choose those words, YOU did, and I do not know how they can be misunderstood.
If anyone reading this has any questions with regards to the process, I'll make you the same offer I have made Mr. Adam [Censor], the real author behind the remarks of "spyder", I'm happy to address them. I can be reached at tom@olyarms.com.
tom i don't know spyder and have no dog in the fight but its pretty obvious spyder was speaking with what knowledge/technique he has/uses. it appears he had no idea of your products or any other 1911's with color case hardening or your process. after reading your emails back and forth you come off like a really big dick and instead of treating potential customers respectfully and understanding that he may not know everything about every technique. you probably lost some customers with your action, after all people were commenting on how cool the hardening looked and how it would be great on a 1911, then a picture of your product was posted with people interested in your product. a truly embarrassing moment for oly arms. fail
What a wonderful display of vindictive posting from a manufacturing rep. who apparently lacks reading comprehension skills.
IBTL
[ROFL1] agreed.
i think my 2 month old daughter has better reading comprehension skills.
Interesting to see a "Rep" coming out on a very public forum and potentialy harming his Business by insulting / degrading a potential customer / customer base. I sincerly hope that this "Rep's" supervisor does not find out that he just alienated their companys customer base. I for one will not be spending any of my hard earned money on any Olympic arms product and will reccomend others to do the same.
Thanks Tom!
And this is his last email which I found a couple minutes ago in my email:
Adam,
Sorry that the facts in the case leave you wanting. My lack of professionalism in your mind is sound exposition of fact and truth on mine. You are of course welcome to your opinion, but your comments were, and still are, very off base, and founded in a limited understanding of the process of which you questioned, and this industry as a whole. I do not need further education on a process that this company has been using successfully for nearly ten years, and that I understand perfectly well, and you sir, clearly do not.
My comments, both public and private, stand firm on their merit alone – I do not need to back-peddle or try to submit them in the err of altered context to be properly understood. Again, if you have questions, I’m happy to address them.
Tom Spithaler
Sales Dir.
Olympic Arms, Inc.
www.olyarms.com (http://www.olyarms.com/)
1-800-228-3471
FAX: 360-491-3447
Ya, at this point, I'm done with it, I guess we'll agree to disagree about this... [Bang]
Goodburbon
07-11-2012, 15:23
That is one impressive display of douchebaggery. I want to print this thread, frame it and put it on my wall.
I'm dumbfounded as to how this all went down.
10mm-man
07-11-2012, 15:38
Mr. Adam [Censor],
If you'd had made your earlier dogmatic statements in the manner you did above, you could have avoided this whole discussion. But you did not. You made a positive statement based on your limited understanding, when the reality is, you had no idea how the process used by Olympic Arms works, or how it affects the material upon which the process is delivered. If this has caused you embarrassment, I do apologize, but I quoted in context, and quoted you exactly. Everyone who read your comments understands your earlier remarks are intimating that providing a case color hardened finish to a 1911 slide would (And I quote you again) "ruin it". I did not choose those words, YOU did, and I do not know how they can be misunderstood.
If anyone reading this has any questions with regards to the process, I'll make you the same offer I have made Mr. Adam [Censor] the real author behind the remarks of "spyder", I'm happy to address them. I can be reached at tom@olyarms.com.
I know not to deal with Oly and glad he came on to show his true un professional attitude. This is an example of why companies like that usually go out of business. Instead of being professional and taking the high road he just let his ego get the best of him. Hopefully the company gets smart and gets rid of this guy.
I would forward on to a higher up and invite them on the forum. I don't think you did anything wrong Spyder....
Wakesurfer
07-11-2012, 15:45
Wow, just wow. I can honestly say that I will never give Olympic Arms any of my hard earned money, and they have Tom to thank for that.
Agreed. Lets start a count of how many here will not buy from them anymore.
1 here.
68Charger
07-11-2012, 15:47
Spyder,
Based on the title of Sales Dir., I'll go out on a limb and say you never got technical answers about how their process works because he has no clue how it's done, he's just trying to protect their precious name.
And you in no way insinuated anything about their products, you were speaking about the process that you used. If he bothered to read the thread from the beginning, he'd see that.
his behavior reminds me of the saying:
“Samson killed 1,000 Philistines with the jawbone of an ass. Every day 1,000 sales are killed with the same instrument.”
jackthewall81
07-11-2012, 15:54
I know not to deal with Olympic Arms and glad he came on to show his true un professional attitude. This is an example of why companies like that usually go out of business. Instead of being professional and taking the high road he just let his ego get the best of him. Hopefully the company gets smart and gets rid of this guy.
I would forward on to a higher up and invite them on the forum. I don't think you did anything wrong Spyder....
Count me in for avoiding oly arms from now on. Now my list has grown to two.
Wow, just wow. I can honestly say that I will never give Olympic Arms any of my hard earned money, and they have Tom to thank for that.
Ditto! Seriously, at first I was like "Damn, that 1911 looks great! I want one" and now I'm like... "HUH? Wow, this guy talks from HIS experience with the process which is completely different from Olympic Arms and he is being 'dogmatic' and 'bad-mouthing' the company??? No, I believe Tom did that all by himself." I think I'll just stick with Colt, Springfield, Kimber, Glock, S&W and Sig Saur for my pistol needs... And a few others. But due to one employee I'm thinking I'm never going to purchase anything from Olympic. Bravo Tom, Bravo! Way to misread a situation and be a huge dick about it!
ETA: Spyder, in regards to your ORIGINAL post- Well done, that looks fan-effing-tastic and I would love to one day employ your services... well when I get a weapon you could do that to! [Beer]
Whistler
07-11-2012, 15:57
Think he could take time away from vehemently protecting them from an imagined slight and insulting customers to see if he can help get the backorders out? I finally cancelled an Oly upper I've had on order for months and based on this exchange will look elsewhere. In my opinion he completely misunderstood the thread and and blatantly ignored the "out" you gave him. Half expected a Gilda Radner-esque "Never mind". [Tooth]
10mm-man
07-11-2012, 16:01
Olympic Arms?
I have not had any problems with Adams Arms, just hoping to clear up your post.
Count me in for avoiding oly arms from now on. Now my list has grown to two.
I will correct!
Guess I won't be buying that 10mm upper from them now.. Wow is all I can say.
I have to say my favorite part was the grammar lesson you gave him at the end of your email....still laughing[ROFL1]
blacklabel
07-11-2012, 16:17
I hope this spreads to other boards. That rep is a grade A d-bag. Wow.
jackthewall81
07-11-2012, 16:21
Arfcom already doesn't approve of Oly arms soooo.
I would forward on to a higher up and invite them on the forum. I don't think you did anything wrong Spyder....
+1
it wasnt even one douchy message that u could attribute to a bad day.. it was like 5+.
Agreed. Lets start a count of how many here will not buy from them anymore.
1 here.
1 plus
Protecting ones name and product is one thing but the goal of good customer service is even after having to correct some misinformation, is then to win them over as a customer. Hence the term "customer is always right" even if they were wrong it is you bread and butter to have customers of your product.
I for one was definitely not won over with those responses.
Sharpienads
07-11-2012, 16:54
I have to say my favorite part was the grammar lesson you gave him at the end of your email....still laughing[ROFL1]
Yeah, me too. If he would have added "Oh, and it's break, not brake, dick" that would have been awesome.
I'll never buy anything from Oly Arms, that's for sure. All the guy had to say was that maybe the process you use makes some parts brittle, but the more advanced process we use is safe for 1911s. That's it.
Thanks for enlightening us all, Tom.
Wait... So does the case hardening hurt or not?! HA!
What I gathered from this...
Case hardening unequivocally hurts:
What is being decided is whether it hurts the slide, or just your reputation [Beer]
I won't be buying from them either, but had never planned to. Seen their prices?
argonstrom
07-11-2012, 17:23
Thanks for taking the time to register on our site and responding to the question - that speaks volumes about your company.
I'm ashamed now to own a Constable - while it is quite nice, the pride of ownership is now gone because of the people that made it.
Updated.
Zundfolge
07-11-2012, 17:35
What I gathered from this...
Case hardening unequivocally hurts:
What is being decided is whether it hurts the slide, or just your reputation [Beer]
Its also clear to me that what Oly does probably isn't actually color case hardening but is instead some sort of metal treatment "faux finish" that looks like color case hardening (which isn't a bad thing).
The other thing that's clear to me is that the public education system in Olympia Washington is just as bad as it is everywhere else (at least when it comes to reading/writing skills).
New slogan: Olympic Arms: Designed by geniuses, produced by craftsmen, marketed by idiots.
Fentonite
07-11-2012, 18:21
Humility is a quality that is lost on most men, but is yet the single most important guideline to success.
Interesting advice, from someone sorely lacking in the quality.
May it also be noted that Kimber produced a 100 Year Commemorative model 1911 with a Case-color hardening finish as well.
Thanks for the advice! I'll stick with Kimber.
I hope this moron's superiors see this thread and what a bad representative he is for their company. Add me to the list of folks who will never buy an Oly, due solely to the attitude of its employees.
DD977GM2
07-11-2012, 18:49
I didn't need this thread to know Olympic Arms sucked but
Now it is 110% now for me. I'd rather vote for nobama then
Ever own any crap from them. Tom you are A1 number one awesome
And can thank your douchebagger for it. Hope you guys go out of business !!!!!!
DD977GM2
07-11-2012, 18:51
New slogan: Olympic Arms: Designed by geniuses, produced by craftsmen, marketed by idiots.
[ROFL1][ROFL2]
[ROFL3][LOL]
theGinsue
07-11-2012, 18:53
Interesting to see a "Rep" coming out on a very public forum and potentialy harming his Business by insulting / degrading a potential customer / customer base. I sincerly hope that this "Rep's" supervisor does not find out that he just alienated their companys customer base. I for one will not be spending any of my hard earned money on any Olympic arms product and will reccomend others to do the same.
Thanks Tom!
As "Sales Director", my guess is that he only answers to the President & CEO. The information I've been able to dig up on their company clearly shows Tom as the head of company sales. Pity that the executive "Sales Director" is better at turning customers/potential customers AWAY from their products than turning people ON to their products.
Olympic Arms is a family owned and operated business by the Schuetz family. The father, Robert, serves as the current President and CEO. The son, Brian, is the Vice President in charge of R&D (Research & Development) as well as Production. And Roberts daughter, Diane, is the CFO.
Robert Schuetz, President & CEO
CEO@olyarms.com
General Corporate Phone: 360-456-3471
Olympic is the second company (after Colt) to produce the AR and they do offer a lifetime warranty on their products which tells me they are well made.
Wow, just wow. I can honestly say that I will never give Olympic Arms any of my hard earned money, and they have Tom to thank for that.
Agreed
All the guy had to say was that maybe the process you use makes some parts brittle, but the more advanced process we use is safe for 1911s. That's it.
Thanks for enlightening us all, Tom.
I think Spyder gave him plenty of opportunities to gracefully do just as you suggested.. Spyder NEVER stated anything about possible problems with Olympic products, but Tom has clearly shown us that there are major problems with Olympic's staff.
What I gathered from this...
Case hardening unequivocally hurts:
What is being decided is whether it hurts the slide, or just your reputation [Beer]
Well played.
Another +1 for never purchasing an Olympic product. I didn't actually count, but that's somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 of us so far. There is an old sales/customer service adage that for every bad experience with a customer, they will tell 7 of their friends about this experience. This was developed long before online forums andsociual media were conceived. These days, such poor behavior on behalf of a company is likely to reach THOUSANDS in short order. I'll certainly do my part as this "Sales Director" has most definitely offended me.
I'm not banning his account, but in my personal eyes he is persona non grata.
Bailey Guns
07-11-2012, 19:20
Oh...now I know why I don't own anything (or ever will) from Olympic Arms.
Tom must've learned his stellar customer relations skills from the experts at H&K.
King-sized peckerwood.
Byte Stryke
07-11-2012, 19:32
I am still trying to figure out how Oly uses a coloring process to, what I can only guess is, decelerate the slide...
The only reason that I even addressed the post was because I had several readers email and or call me commenting on your post – all of them thinking their slides and or guns might brake based on your comments. I’m not the only person that interpreted the comments the way that I did.
and +1 on not buying from Oly...
Here is how it SHOULD have gone...
Oly: usually you would be correct in that most processes do created a brittle slide. However, our unique process of blahblahblah creates the desired coloration and visual effect without compromising the material or weapon quality.
Us: Cool!
instead we got
http://www.google.com/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://sfcmac.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/asshat.jpg?w=570&sa=X&ei=ACn-T97JCMirrQH_9sSLCQ&ved=0CAkQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNFlQRT1qkpgXcBaGYonMvW80pWxzA
Byte Stryke
07-11-2012, 19:36
Olympic Arms: Designed by geniuses, produced by craftsmen, marketed by idiots.
Love it
Byte Stryke
07-11-2012, 19:55
Contact US!
# Name Position Phone Mobile Phone Number Fax
1 Nolan (http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_contact&view=contact&id=10:nolan&catid=26:customer-service-team) Sales (800) 228-3471 (360) 491-3447
2 Lee (http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_contact&view=contact&id=9:lee&catid=26:customer-service-team) Retail Storefront Sales
3 Tom (http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_contact&view=contact&id=3:tom&catid=26:customer-service-team) Sales Director (800) 228 - 3471
4 Andy (http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_contact&view=contact&id=4:andy&catid=27:product-technical) Returns & Repairs
5 Justin (http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_contact&view=contact&id=7:justin&catid=26:customer-service-team) Law Enforcement & Government Sales/ Renewal FFLs (800) 228 - 3471
Agreed. Lets start a count of how many here will not buy from them anymore.
1 here.
another 1 here. not that I would of anyway, but for sure not now.[Luck]
well, that is one way to get fired I guess.
keylay31
07-11-2012, 20:33
Wow, just wow. I can honestly say that I will never give Olympic Arms any of my hard earned money, and they have Tom to thank for that.
This. Adding them to the list.
NitroxBoss
07-11-2012, 21:15
Guess I won't be buying that 10mm upper from them now.. Wow is all I can say.
Count me as a NON-Customer also!
BPTactical
07-11-2012, 21:35
Always considered them a lowest rung firearm....never saw my dollar, never will.
As mentioned earlier, Spyder's operation is true case hardening which imparts the mottled color.
Very nice.
Oly's process is just coloring to imitate case hardening.
Very not nice.
Holger Danske
07-11-2012, 21:43
i won't be buying from Oly based on this thread.
Holly crap! Sales Director?! Guess what Sales director - you've just lost another customer!
ChunkyMonkey
07-11-2012, 21:52
This sucks, because.. I actually think their products are good and affordable. I will never recommend Olym anymore. What an ass!
I hope Oly Arms guys are reading this:
I really hope you guys are realizing that our board has about 5k registered users, let's say 1500 of those users are more or less active here (actually post from time to time), let's say 750 of those 1500 users will read the thread, and finally let's say just 200 out of those 750 say "fuck Olympic Arms, I'm not spending my money there any more".... Can you really afford this just because of one guy's stupidity?!
P. S. Oh, and thanks to Internet, things like this are spreading REALLY FREAKIN FAST.
blacklabel
07-11-2012, 22:26
Throw me on the list of people that will never buy from them. This guy could teach a class on how to insult your customer base.
Another turned away customer here, good job Tom.
I personally want to know how a company with the wherewithal to find a thread like this on a local shooters forum not only hire this moron but allow him internet access.
funkymonkey1111
07-11-2012, 22:56
I always knew Olympic sucked--this guy proves it.
Wonder how is boss would view this thread.
One Shot
07-11-2012, 23:53
What a douche... The Sales Director who contracts case hardening out. Wont be getting my business..
patrick0685
07-11-2012, 23:58
it sad because they made what seemed like nice pistol cal uppers, guess i wont be getting one now
I only read page one. Can't you give the guy a brake? ;)
Colorado Osprey
07-12-2012, 06:54
I'm sorry, but Tom has always been great source of information to me and someone who I can actually call/email/pm at a manufacturer and get answers. My involvement was to get information on how Oly case hardens without ruining a slide. Apparently there are different methods... who knew?.. I didn't.
For those that now hate Oly, please PM me if you are selling those guns cheap. I'd love to have them :)
+1 another that will never buy a Oly firearm. thats a shame i like to support family owned companies too.
on a different note.. if anyone is currently unemployed i heard there is a new director of sales position open. im sure that pays fairly well
Want to thank Tom aka "Rattler" for stopping in and setting it straight.
Funny how he didn't actually do this though... He didn't do anything but make himself look like an ass. I tried to make nice, even that didn't work. I am still however wanting to know how companies that do that get their colors. Sadly, he will not be the one who helps out on the subject.
I'm sorry, but Tom has always been great source of information to me and someone who I can actually call/email/pm at a manufacturer and get answers. My involvement was to get information on how Oly case hardens without ruining a slide. Apparently there are different methods... who knew?.. I didn't.
For those that now hate Oly, please PM me if you are selling those guns cheap. I'd love to have them :)
You know, I sent an email before all of this even started (you can see that on the top of page two) and got no response. The only time anyone got back to anything, was Thomas getting all bent out of shape due to a miscommunication (reading comprehension skills) on his part. This could have gone a very different way, but, didn't.... [Bang] This wasn't an attitude problem, people getting snippy like Hk does sometimes, but rather an employee being a complete dick because he was avidly trying to be a dick. Suprisingly I've still decided not to point this out to his superiors though. He should thank me..... and get grammar/spelling lessons.
Beprepared
07-12-2012, 08:23
Here is how it SHOULD have gone...
Oly: usually you would be correct in that most processes do created a brittle slide. However, our unique process of blahblahblah creates the desired coloration and visual effect without compromising the material or weapon quality.
Us: Cool!
^^ This ^^
Sounds like an over educated (grammar aside) sales exec, who forgot to turn off the "director" and turn on the "customer service," before talking down to a bunch of forum yahoos.
Whistler
07-12-2012, 08:23
I'm sorry, but Tom has always been great source of information to me and someone who I can actually call/email/pm at a manufacturer and get answers. My involvement was to get information on how Oly case hardens without ruining a slide. Apparently there are different methods... who knew?.. I didn't.
For those that now hate Oly, please PM me if you are selling those guns cheap. I'd love to have them :)
Personally I don't "hate' Olympic Arms but rather am put off doing business with them due to this interaction. It's a shame too I really like their pistol caliber uppers. I don't just find money laying around I work hard for it and prefer to spend it with companies that work equally hard to earn my business. Ego is a bitch sometimes.
funkymonkey1111
07-12-2012, 09:45
I'm sorry, but Tom has always been great source of information to me and someone who I can actually call/email/pm at a manufacturer and get answers.
For those that now hate Oly, please PM me if you are selling those guns cheap. I'd love to have them :)
congratulations--maybe call him and advise him the damage he's done and let us know how that goes.
and, those turds were pretty cheap to begin with, weren't they?
hghclsswhitetrsh
07-12-2012, 09:51
Won't get my business either.
mevshooter
07-12-2012, 13:34
I honestly had never really even heard of the company before this thread, but after reading it in its entirety, they have no chance of getting a single penny from me.
ha, way to go.
hollohas
07-12-2012, 14:59
This Sales Director F'd this up big time. Spyder NEVER said anything bad about Oly Arms. Put me on the boycott list simply because I don't stand for any company to come on a public forum and outright badmouth, attack and question someone's integrity, especially when that individual never committed any offense against the company.
That is at least until they fire this guy and hire a replacement. I vote for Byte as the replacement because he gave the very best, A+ customer service and positive marketing response.
Here is how it SHOULD have gone...
Oly: usually you would be correct in that most processes do created a brittle slide. However, our unique process of blahblahblah creates the desired coloration and visual effect without compromising the material or weapon quality.
Us: Cool!
Byte, if you're not interested in being a Sales Director, perhaps you're looking for some contract work? I suspect Oly Arms will be looking to hire someone to put on a "How to provide great customer service" seminar soon.
Looks like Mr. Sales Director needs to put the Thesaurus down. Using big words to impress people doesn't go over well with me. Especially when using them just because. Pompous A$$hole. I'll buy a DPMS over Olympic Arms. DPMS' Customer Service and Repair Dept. is shit also. They used to be on the bottom of my list. Now it's Oly Arms.
XC700116
07-12-2012, 18:20
Yeap another one here that won't be spending any of my hard earned $$$ with them. Unbelievable, he could have come out looking like a shining star and gained business but does this instead, what a jackwagon.
I just wanted to let you guys know (and hopefully the "good folks" at Oly arms, too) that this thread has already made it to Louisiana and will continue to spread.
http://www.bayoushooter.com/forums/showthread.php?85750-Olympic-arms-rep-pays-ar-15.co-a-visit
BTW, awesome forum. You guys have WAAY better smilies than we do.[Beer]
ChunkyMonkey
07-12-2012, 23:16
I just wanted to let you guys know (and hopefully the "good folks" at Oly arms, too) that this thread has already made it to Louisiana and will continue to spread.
http://www.bayoushooter.com/forums/showthread.php?85750-Olympic-arms-rep-pays-ar-15.co-a-visit
BTW, awesome forum. You guys have WAAY better smilies than we do.[Beer]
Welcome! Stick around!
Lex_Luthor
07-13-2012, 00:20
Hadoken. http://vagary.tv/wp-contentnew/2012/04/hadoken.jpg
onebadfx4
07-13-2012, 09:53
What a clown. Way to look retarded in a forum of gun nuts and prevent any of us from buying your firearms.
jackthewall81
07-13-2012, 10:42
Wonder when it will spread to arfcom.
I'm sorry, but Tom has always been great source of information to me and someone who I can actually call/email/pm at a manufacturer and get answers. My involvement was to get information on how Oly case hardens without ruining a slide. Apparently there are different methods... who knew?.. I didn't.
For those that now hate Oly, please PM me if you are selling those guns cheap. I'd love to have them :)
I liken this to Gunsmoke, if you've been there and had a bad experience (like I did) you pretty much write them off as a place you will no longer take your business and urge your friends based on your bad experience(s) to do the same. Poor Osprey hasn't had that happen, yet, in this case with Oly, but don't you fret none, I am sure eventually it'll happen to you too! [Coffee]
Colorado Osprey
07-14-2012, 06:54
I work in an industry where I need to acquire parts from manufacturers daily. I deal with manufacturers and reps daily as well. I do get and have had many bad experiences.
Experiences like them not calling you back or ignoring emails. Communication/support is key to getting things done. Without it a manufacturer will die quickly because you can not get support on a purchased item... and will not make future purchases. Bad experiences do not keep me from doing business with a company.
If that happened I would have to just sit in a dark closet some where and wait to die.
I also understand that manufacturers make errors and sometimes things are overlooked as well as things break. This is the nature of the beast. It is gonna happen in every industry.
That said... I own Olympic Arms products and am very happy with everything I own. I am not a Kool-Aid drinker and don't need a chart to tell me what to buy. I have used firearms to save my life and trust all my firearms to function as close to 100% as possible or it gets sold/traded.
I'm not here to defend Tom's statements.. but I understand where he is coming from.
Olympic has continually been trashed in web forums and Tom usually has to start from a defensive position on forums. But again he is communicating. He is out there to be contacted. He was stating that Oly's case hardening will not ruin a slide although it was clearly stated in the original lines that case hardening will ruin a slide. I see Tom's statement as trying to keep wrong information from getting out about Olympic's case hardening on their 1911's.
Could it have been said more diplomatically? Probably.
Will I continue to use Oly products? You bet.
Many of their unique designs are the best in the industry.. and attempted to be copied by most of the "tier chart" assemblers.
Lastly Oly Arms are made in the USA... not just assembled here. Many of the "chart" guns are using parts now imported... thanks but no. Olympic Arms started in Colorado Springs. It is an American owned and run business that is not part of CERBERUS.
EDIT: Still no PM's on cheap Oly's for sale???
Whistler
07-14-2012, 07:51
I work in an industry where I need to acquire parts from manufacturers daily. I deal with manufacturers and reps daily as well. I do get and have had many bad experiences.
Experiences like them not calling you back or ignoring emails. Communication/support is key to getting things done. Without it a manufacturer will die quickly because you can not get support on a purchased item... and will not make future purchases. Bad experiences do not keep me from doing business with a company.
If that happened I would have to just sit in a dark closet some where and wait to die.
I also understand that manufacturers make errors and sometimes things are overlooked as well as things break. This is the nature of the beast. It is gonna happen in every industry.
That said... I own Olympic Arms products and am very happy with everything I own. I am not a Kool-Aid drinker and don't need a chart to tell me what to buy. I have used firearms to save my life and trust all my firearms to function as close to 100% as possible or it gets sold/traded.
I'm not here to defend Tom's statements.. but I understand where he is coming from.
Olympic has continually been trashed in web forums and Tom usually has to start from a defensive position on forums. But again he is communicating. He is out there to be contacted. He was stating that Oly's case hardening will not ruin a slide although it was clearly stated in the original lines that case hardening will ruin a slide. I see Tom's statement as trying to keep wrong information from getting out about Olympic's case hardening on their 1911's.
Could it have been said more diplomatically? Probably.
Will I continue to use Oly products? You bet.
Many of their unique designs are the best in the industry.. and attempted to be copied by most of the "tier chart" assemblers.
Lastly Oly Arms are made in the USA... not just assembled here. Many of the "chart" guns are using parts now imported... thanks but no. Olympic Arms started in Colorado Springs. It is an American owned and run business that is not part of CERBERUS.
EDIT: Still no PM's on cheap Oly's for sale???
Not to be pedantic but it was clearly stated that it would ruin the slide because of too much heat:
I am working on other process though to get some really nice colors that don't take too much heat to make. I don't see anywhere in there that the "chemical bath process that Olympic uses is bad too". Most responses on this thread have had little to do with the quality of their products and everything to do with an inappropriate (and frankly rude) exchange from a Company rep in a public forum over a misunderstanding. If at any point he would step down from the ego, admit that he misread/misinterpreted the post and make nice I might be on your side of this issue. Unfortunately that did not happen though the OP gave him a number of opportunities. His behavior is indefensible despite your assertions regarding the product quality.
Would I buy an Oly? Sure, on the secondary market.
Would I buy it from them? Not until they learn a little common courtesy.
You talk about your daily experience and I think you would admit each of us smiles at a shitbird through clenched teeth because that's what it takes to get the job done but I don't see the relevance, unless that means "cut him some slack everybody picks on him." Even if he had been right it was poorly handled and one would imagine customer relations to be his purview.
And finally
he is communicating. He is out there to be contacted How's that working?
What cracks me up is he has been checking in this thread daily but without comment. Yes it shows the last time you logged in under your profile Tom.
I understand CO comment about him having to respond to negative comments on public forum all the time but he was even thanked for joining and for his sudo explanation of OA's process for coloring. But he doesn't try to correct himself when his error is constantly pointed out to him, I would hope even if its for the sake of the company he represents he would do so but to date he has only viewed this thread trying to be anonymous.
The shooting community is very tight in certain aspects and ANY negative comments or reviews about a company will cause some damage to its customer base even if just one person decides not to buy because of what they "Heard" then it damages the company. It just looks like ego was all that drove him to register here and try to treat a senior member like he was a fool. Well it back fired so good luck in containment like I said the shooting community is a tight nit group.
BTW Welcome to our Brothers from the Bayou. [Beer]
Oh BTW I have seen other members get chastised way worse than this for not owning up to a mistake or comment so why should he be treated any different?
I work in an industry where I need to acquire parts from manufacturers daily. I deal with manufacturers and reps daily as well. I do get and have had many bad experiences.
Experiences like them not calling you back or ignoring emails...
^This isn't something simply like ignoring emails. I also get having to deal with companies, reps, sales people, directors, and everything inbetween as my job as a Sales Manager, and later on in life as a Foreman both made me have to seek other companies information in one way or another. Toms attitude and disrespect are the issue here, nothing else.
... Bad experiences do not keep me from doing business with a company.
If that happened I would have to just sit in a dark closet some where and wait to die.
^Simple bad experiences, no, but having to deal with people like Tom at a company, yes. This is why companies fire people for making their companies look like asses just as Tom has. Believe me, as a past Sales Manager, I've fired plenty of reps based on their attitudes towards potential customers.
If you give someone a good experience, they will tell 3 people on average about it, the info trickles down from there. If you give someone a bad experience, they tell 7, and bad news travels a lot faster (<average something rather anyone in sales will tell you).
I'm not here to defend Tom's statements.. but I understand where he is coming from.
^So you defend this guy being a complete dick? I'm sorry, but there is no other way to put it, he tried, tried to be an ass! That is the part that gets me.
Olympic has continually been trashed in web forums and Tom usually has to start from a defensive position on forums. But again he is communicating. < He has done a piss poor job at it I might add. He is out there to be contacted. He was stating that Oly's case hardening will not ruin a slide although it was clearly stated in the original lines that case hardening will ruin a slide. I see Tom's statement as trying to keep wrong information from getting out about Olympic's case hardening on their 1911's.
^Again, this is where he needs to go back to school and learn how to read correctly (a class on manners wouldn't help either). Nothing, nothing was ever said about Olympics hardening process. As a matter of fact, as I have pointed out before, I even stated that I would like to know how they did it. Tom has no excuse for his BS in this thread, none, and everyone can see that plain as day.
Many of their unique designs are the best in the industry.. and attempted to be copied by most of the "tier chart" assemblers.
^The point is not about their products, but attitude of the guy that works for them.
Lastly Oly Arms are made in the USA... not just assembled here. Many of the "chart" guns are using parts now imported... thanks but no. Olympic Arms started in Colorado Springs. It is an American owned and run business that is not part of CERBERUS.
^This is another remark about something that has nothing to do with the complete ass Tom made of himself.
Not that Tom give's a shit about anything that I think, but maybe owning up and thinking about his own advice "Humility is a quality that is lost on most men, but is yet the single most important guideline to success." would do him some good. I'm not passing this thread onto his employer, but I'm almost positive that it will get there sooner or later. Also, following that note, I actually listened in on a conversation about this thread brought up by people at the NRA courses here at TSJC (nationally known event). The word is spreading, funny how that works.
irishmtnmn
07-16-2012, 17:33
What a GREAT thing to do to a few wall hangers I have laying around!
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