Perspectives On Capacity

[Chase723]

I recently purchased a G30sf but not after trolling around quite a bit and one thing I often came across was people saying " If I ever need more than 6+1 then something is seriously wrong" etc. As gun people, I think we need to be careful about saying such things. It's cannon fodder for libs to restrict capacity. I can see it now, "you guys all say it's about shot placement and that something is seriously wrong if you have to shoot more than x rounds." I'd posit that something is seriously wrong if we ever have to pump off even 1 round. That being said, I personally want to maintain the capacity and ability to send as much metal as possible at a bad guy. If I'm going to shoot at someone I feel certain enough about that decision to send 100 at them.

Train like you will fight and shoot as much as you can afford.

Chase

[hghclsswhitetrsh]

The more the merrier!

[00tec]

Yup. As much as reasonably possible. I've been contemplating leaving my G21 mag in the 30 for a few extra. At that rate, I'll have 7 extra rounds for cover fire compared to the 6+1 argument. :D

[Chase723]

The number one thing that saves lives in combat is superior, overwhelming fire power.

[Zundfolge]

"If I ever need more than 6+1 then something is seriously wrong"

Yeah, sometimes things go seriously wrong ... I'd argue if you need to draw you've crossed that line (doesn't mean one shouldn't be prepared for when things go seriously wrong).

[Chad4000]

my first pistol was a poly high cap striker gun. (an xd). I bought purposely in 9mm so that I could have as much as possible..

[Danimal]

No matter what you say, libtards won't get it because they do not function in reality. The truth is that any shot you fire should be to the best of your ability, and you should be adequately trained on how to make that shot, and trained how to use sound judgment before you ever carry a gun. Beyond that extra rounds are just preparation for when something goes wrong, or more than one bad situation is encountered. I am all for carrying as much as you can because you never know what you might face.

[Ronin13]

The FBI trains their agents to shoot until the threat is eliminated- IE Keep firing until the perp goes down. How many is that? Hard to say, could be 3, could be 20...
Good luck.

[Sharpienads]

No matter what you say, libtards won't get it because they do not function in reality.

That about sums it up.

[SuperiorDG]

I've heard of the amount of rounds a person had on them at the time of a defensive shooting being brought up in court to show the defendant's intent was "looking for a war." Why would one need so many rounds on them unless they were looking for trouble? But the fact is you need extra rounds and mags to deal with malfunctions more then actually having to deploy them. One mag with six rounds could easily turn into a gun that doesn't work and no way to fix it.

[JohnTRourke]

here's the difference
if a cop fire off all their rounds, reload 2 or 3 times and keep firing at one guy.
There's an internal investigation, the cop gets a paid vacation and he's cleared 99.99999999999999999% of the time.

if YOU do that in a private citizen, esp at one guy, it's going to be LONG EXPENSIVE court process to prove you weren't a bad guy and even then you still might get railroaded (see zimmerman)

Read Massad Ayoob.

Prepared is prepared and 2 is 1, 1 is none, but you better be DAMN SURE of where and why you fired each of those rounds.

Now, when things go to hell, and the looters/zombies/what have you's are out, all rules are off.

[WETWRKS]

This is the reason I chose the FiveseveN as my carry gun. High ammo capacity. With just the mag in the gun I typically have more ammo than a lot carry with 2extra mags. Even more when I have spare mags with me.

[SideShow Bob]

The number one thing that saves lives in combat is superior, overwhelming fire power.

Ask a Vietnam Vet about that one...........

[FireMoth]

I would submit, for your consideration, that if you can assuredly handle a a conflict situation in 5-6 rounds, without reload, etc., that you MIGHT have just committed murder.

Trained, prepared, and capable professionals don't enter conflicts they choose the timing of that light, why would anyone preparing for the possibility of surprise expect to do better?

So, if you can be certain of getting it done in 6 or less, then you probably could have solved it without breaking leather

[Bailey Guns]

I would submit, for your consideration, that if you can assuredly handle a a conflict situation in 5-6 rounds, without reload, etc., that you MIGHT have just committed murder.

Trained, prepared, and capable professionals don't enter conflicts they choose the timing of that light, why would anyone preparing for the possibility of surprise expect to do better?

So, if you can be certain of getting it done in 6 or less, then you probably could have solved it without breaking leather

Maybe I don't fully understand what you're saying here, but I don't think I really agree with that. Many people that carry a gun carry nothing more that a 5 or 6 shot revolver for their protection. Regardless of the merits of that decision, it is what it is and I'd say it's very common. I seriously doubt the fact they weren't carrying 1 or 2 reloads would have any bearing on any criminal or civil issue they might face.

I'd also say that any time you kill someone you've committed homicide. The question is whether or not it's justifiable.

[Danimal]

I read somewhere that in the average shoot out involving police, the officers involved fired more than 30 rounds each. I don't remember the source so I could be mistaken, but in the average crisis situation in which you are forced to react with lethal force, I would assume you would need to react similarly. Now you have to take into account that you are not a police officer, and have no obligation to bring the criminal to justice. You are only supposed to protect life and your residence from a threat. So if you fire one shot and your assailant heads for cover, get the hell out of there if you have the opportunity. If you need to stay and fight to protect yourself or others, be prepared to handle the situation as best as you can. Training and practice are worth the thousands of bullets, if you train and prepare properly.

[Chad4000]

Point blank.... I like high cap because I assume I'm going to miss.... I'm a pretty decent shot, but I think one in three (or worse for that matter) on target depending on the sitch, would be considered a success..

[The Heretic]

Better to have to many than not enough!

[crashdown]

Better to have to many than not enough!

Better to have too many, than to many.... or was that said to you guys too many times?

+two

[centrarchidae]

I've heard of the amount of rounds a person had on them at the time of a defensive shooting being brought up in court to show the defendant's intent was "looking for a war." Why would one need so many rounds on them unless they were looking for trouble? But the fact is you need extra rounds and mags to deal with malfunctions more then actually having to deploy them. One mag with six rounds could easily turn into a gun that doesn't work and no way to fix it.

When and where did this happen?

[Longnecktipper]

Do you only put in 1 gallon of gas in your car ? Hopefully not , but yes it's possible . Same with handguns . Will a gallon get some jobs done ? Sure , but if I go somewhere I like to get back ! Just my two cents .

[kidicarus13]

I read somewhere that in the average shoot out involving police, the officers involved fired more than 30 rounds each. I don't remember the source so I could be mistaken, but in the average crisis situation in which you are forced to react with lethal force, I would assume you would need to react similarly. Now you have to take into account that you are not a police officer, and have no obligation to bring the criminal to justice. You are only supposed to protect life and your residence from a threat. So if you fire one shot and your assailant heads for cover, get the hell out of there if you have the opportunity. If you need to stay and fight to protect yourself or others, be prepared to handle the situation as best as you can. Training and practice are worth the thousands of bullets, if you train and prepare properly.

That information about 30rds each is way off! I can find reliable sources that say a lot less but I'd like to wager on it before I do [ROFL1]

[45XD]

I recently purchased a G30sf but not after trolling around quite a bit and one thing I often came across was people saying " If I ever need more than 6+1 then something is seriously wrong" etc. As gun people, I think we need to be careful about saying such things. It's cannon fodder for libs to restrict capacity. I can see it now, "you guys all say it's about shot placement and that something is seriously wrong if you have to shoot more than x rounds." I'd posit that something is seriously wrong if we ever have to pump off even 1 round. That being said, I personally want to maintain the capacity and ability to send as much metal as possible at a bad guy. If I'm going to shoot at someone I feel certain enough about that decision to send 100 at them.

Train like you will fight and shoot as much as you can afford.

Chase
Seriously, I love taking my Glock 19 w/ 33 round mag to the range and just blow some stuff up. The fun never ends with 33 rounds....
I wish all of my guns had high cap mags [Beer]

[SNAFU]

The FBI trains their agents to shoot until the threat is eliminated- IE Keep firing until the perp goes down. How many is that? Hard to say, could be 3, could be 20...
Good luck.

Miami shootout comes to mind....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

Bring enough to end the fight,,,,attack through ambushes

[AirbornePathogen]

"If I ever need more than 6+1 then something is seriously wrong"

Yeah, sometimes things go seriously wrong ... I'd argue if you need to draw you've crossed that line (doesn't mean one shouldn't be prepared for when things go seriously wrong).

Amen! If I'm about to shoot somebody, something has already gone seriously wrong. I'd much rather have more rounds than I need to effectively deal with the situation than the alternative.

[Richard K]

At one time the Sheriff and I were discussing what duty handguns we should authorize for
carry. He asked me "when was the last time you ran out of ammo?" I replied that I wasn't worried about the last time, I'm worried about the next time.

[Chase723]

A few comments on the conversation. 1) I've talked to several Vietnam vets, am currently in the Army, and several of my friends are in the military with multiple deployments. Overwhelming, directed firepower works everytime. 2) Zimmerman shouldn't back down, repent, or show any form of remorse. Doing so only weakens his self defense position because it invokes the notion of doubt. If your going engage someone with lethal force there should be zero doubt before or after. 3) about shooting until the threat is eliminated, you're damn right! As an example, an LEO friend was involved in a single cop vs bad guy armed stand off. After the bad guy drew his weapon my friend shot him 13 times in the chest. I.e. he emptied his mag. if it had required more, believe me there would have been no hesitation.

[josh7328]

The FBI says that the average self-defense shooting is 2 rounds, if I recall correctly. That being said, I always have at LEAST 22 rounds of .45 on me. It would really suck to be in a situation where you need ammo and don't have enough. I know through my training scenarios in the military that my reaction to a close range threat popping up is an automatic 3 rounds in the chest. Given what I know about how I react under stress, I am already above that "average" after putting down the first dude. Hope that there aren't more and I decided to carry the "average" of 2 rounds...

[splogan]

Honestly I don't usually carry a lot of rounds because .45 230's get heavy fast but I love the opportunity to carry more if I chose. Mag round count is not the problem, nor is the firearms industry. It is the shift in society values or lack there of that must be addressed.

[Goodburbon]

The more the merrier. However, for a defensive situation such as ccw and HD I would not sacrifice function for capacity. In other words I won't have extended aftermarket magazines, mag tubes, floor plates, springs, extensions etc. that are not near 100% reliable on or in weapons I intend on using if my life depends on it.

[TFOGGER]

My edc is 15+1. Maybe 3 rounds per threat, but threats often come in groups of 3 or 4. I would rather finish the fight with more rounds in the magazine than find myself with more threats than ammo to deal with them...

[Ronin13]

At one time the Sheriff and I were discussing what duty handguns we should authorize for
carry. He asked me "when was the last time you ran out of ammo?" I replied that I wasn't worried about the last time, I'm worried about the next time.

THIS!


The FBI says that the average self-defense shooting is 2 rounds, if I recall correctly. That being said, I always have at LEAST 22 rounds of .45 on me. It would really suck to be in a situation where you need ammo and don't have enough. I know through my training scenarios in the military that my reaction to a close range threat popping up is an automatic 3 rounds in the chest. Given what I know about how I react under stress, I am already above that "average" after putting down the first dude. Hope that there aren't more and I decided to carry the "average" of 2 rounds...
My pistol training in the military taught me, and this drill is still hammered in every time I go to the range, 2 to the chest, one to the head, eliminates the threat 85% of the time without need for any more rounds fired at a single threat. Granted, that 85% factors in ammo choice, penetration, body armor, and if the target is on drugs or not (sometimes a person can survive a headshot and still be combat effective). Carry what you're comfortable with and assume it's never enough.

[josh7328]

THIS!


My pistol training in the military taught me, and this drill is still hammered in every time I go to the range, 2 to the chest, one to the head, eliminates the threat 85% of the time without need for any more rounds fired at a single threat. Granted, that 85% factors in ammo choice, penetration, body armor, and if the target is on drugs or not (sometimes a person can survive a headshot and still be combat effective). Carry what you're comfortable with and assume it's never enough.
I need to train to get that failure drill to become my automatic reaction. During force on force stuff though, it seemed that my automatic reaction was three to the chest.

[Ronin13]

I need to train to get that failure drill to become my automatic reaction. During force on force stuff though, it seemed that my automatic reaction was three to the chest.

Believe me, it took about 20 straight misses to get it so that the transition for chest to head was smooth... Not to mention that little factor known as "Paper doesn't move, but people do." [Coffee]
Muscle memory is a very cool thing! I've trained in transitions from primary to secondary, speed reloads (both with rifle and pistol), and the like and I'm still no where close to where I want to be... what's that recurring theme we tend to have on here? Train, train, train! [Beer][AR15]

[Chad4000]

I need to train to get that failure drill to become my automatic reaction. During force on force stuff though, it seemed that my automatic reaction was three to the chest.


ive wondered about that myself.. everyone says 2 to the chest, 1 to the computer is the way to go.

I have kind of thought that it might actually be hard to get a head shot in the rush of action. I mean hard as compared to putting another one center mass.

[JoeT]

But the fact is you need extra rounds and mags to deal with malfunctions more then actually having to deploy them. One mag with six rounds could easily turn into a gun that doesn't work and no way to fix it.


I use to just carry with 7 rounds (full mag and 1 in the pipe), an acquaintance of mine (a friend of a friend) was found stabbed to death. In his hand was his pistol with the mag floor plate missing and ammo and spring on the floor.

would a second mag have saved his life? I don't know...but it might have

I now carry an extra mag, and in my car are 2 more (extended) mags

[Ronin13]

ive wondered about that myself.. everyone says 2 to the chest, 1 to the computer is the way to go.

I have kind of thought that it might actually be hard to get a head shot in the rush of action. I mean hard as compared to putting another one center mass.

You are right, under pressure and speed take a lot of practice, but also remember in trained hands and at the average distance you would engage a hostile a headshot is not as hard as one would think (video games are to blame as they give extra points for the oh-so-difficult headshot). Within a few hours we had young privates who barely made a 27/40 on their M4 marksmanship putting holes in the paper heads with an M9 Beretta at 5-10M.

[Chad4000]

You are right, under pressure and speed take a lot of practice, but also remember in trained hands and at the average distance you would engage a hostile a headshot is not as hard as one would think (video games are to blame as they give extra points for the oh-so-difficult headshot). Within a few hours we had young privates who barely made a 27/40 on their M4 marksmanship putting holes in the paper heads with an M9 Beretta at 5-10M.


I suppose thats true.. how should the normal everyday person think about it do you think? Im not military myself, but have shot for a very long time. I could get up to speed on triple taps or 2+1 really quick..

like in a home defense situation, should I be looking to the 2+1 idea? or just put as many in the bad guy that I can? I know that these are all extremely hard judgement calls.

[SouthPaw]

Better to have it and not need it; than not have it and need it.

[josh7328]

I recently bought some body armor on amazon. A couple clicks, and bam, you have armor at your door. I really should start practicing the failure drill. Body armor isn't just for the cops anymore.

[josh7328]

I suppose thats true.. how should the normal everyday person think about it do you think? Im not military myself, but have shot for a very long time. I could get up to speed on triple taps or 2+1 really quick..

like in a home defense situation, should I be looking to the 2+1 idea? or just put as many in the bad guy that I can? I know that these are all extremely hard judgement calls.
I use my AR for H/D. Keep nailin' them until they are no longer a threat. Even 5.56 vmax rounds penetrate soft armor. Plus with the AR a quick headshot is alot easier (for me) than with a pistol.
[AR15]

[Chad4000]

I recently bought some body armor on amazon. A couple clicks, and bam, you have armor at your door. I really should start practicing the failure drill. Body armor isn't just for the cops anymore.


ya know, that's not a horrible point either.. looks like I get to practice some headshots lol...

[Richard K]

Most who posted here have been fixated on there being one assailant and placing 2 to the chest and one to the head. I'm more concerned about there being multiple assailants. I once heard a dispatch tape of an off-duty San Diego County Deputy who pissed off a motorcycle gang and was chased into a vacant building. He had a (then new) S&W with a fourteen or fifteen round capacity. On the tape he was telling the dispatcher that fourteen or fifteen had him cornered, hold on, bang, one more down. Please call my sergeant at (number) and tell him, hold on, bang, there's another one down, tell him I'm going to be late for my shift. Tell my back-up that things are getting kind of tense here, I'm down to my last 5 ir 6 rounds. He was nicknamed the Ice Man.

[Chad4000]

Most who posted here have been fixated on there being one assailant and placing 2 to the chest and one to the head. I'm more concerned about there being multiple assailants. I once heard a dispatch tape of an off-duty San Diego County Deputy who pissed off a motorcycle gang and was chased into a vacant building. He had a (then new) S&W with a fourteen or fifteen round capacity. On the tape he was telling the dispatcher that fourteen or fifteen had him cornered, hold on, bang, one more down. Please call my sergeant at (number) and tell him, hold on, bang, there's another one down, tell him I'm going to be late for my shift. Tell my back-up that things are getting kind of tense here, I'm down to my last 5 ir 6 rounds. He was nicknamed the Ice Man.


Sorry to bring this thread back,, but any chance you have a link to that? that would be an awesome call to listen too... (unless maybe you mean it was like an internal thing or something)

[jmg8550]

Point blank.... I like high cap because I assume I'm going to miss.... I'm a pretty decent shot, but I think one in three (or worse for that matter) on target depending on the sitch, would be considered a success..

So those other two "misses' could be potential murder charges. The right state of mind would be to not take the shot unless you are sure you will hit your target.
Remember, a pistol is a DEFENSIVE weapon. If you are truly in combat, you shouldn't be using a pistol.