View Full Version : Surpised none of you 'conservatives' have freaked out about this yet
http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/07/11/arizona-pastor-arrested-jailed-for-holding-bible-study-in-home-his-wife-says-it-defies-logic/
Arizona Pastor Arrested, Jailed for Holding Bible Study in Home; His Wife Says It ‘Defies Logic’
by Fox and Friends (http://foxnewsinsider.com/author/fox-and-friends) Posted in: Christianity (http://foxnewsinsider.com/tag/christianity/), Michael Salman (http://foxnewsinsider.com/tag/michael-salman/), Phoenix (http://foxnewsinsider.com/tag/phoenix/), Religion (http://foxnewsinsider.com/tag/religion/), Suzanne Salman (http://foxnewsinsider.com/tag/suzanne-salman/)
Bible study leader Michael Salman is sitting in jail today after his home was raided earlier this week by more than a dozen Phoenix, Ariz. police officers and city officials. His offense? The city says people aren’t allowed to hold private Bible studies on their own property.
Salman was sentenced to 60 days in jail, three years probation and received a $12,180 fine for “the crime.” His wife Suzanne spoke with Fox and Friends this morning to express her shock and disbelief at the entire situation. According to Suzanne, the city told her that her husband was essentially arrested because the Bible study was at a private house .. and that essentially, it’s a church. Since they weren’t zoned for church, they were told they were breaking the rules.
“It defies logic, honestly. I don’t understand … that something so small got so large like this,” Suzanne said. “People do it all over the United States all the time.”
John Whitehead of the Rutherford Institute believes the family is being discriminated against because of their faith. “The key is — the Constitution guarantees the right to freedom of religion … the right to assemble and talk to each other wherever you want to be – in public or in your home,” he said. “The thing that I think is so shocking is that you might expect this in Iran or [some place] around the world … but happening in the United States, this is so shocking it’s beyond belief.”
Phoenix City Prosecutor Vicki Hill said in a statement: “It came down to zoning and proper permitting. Anytime you are holding a gathering of people continuously as he does, we have concerns about people being able to exit the facility properly in case there is a fire, and that’s really all this comes down to.”
What do you make of this case? As Suzanne says in the below interview, is this different than a regularly meeting Tupperware group or the like? And if so, how and why?
If it would have been a Muslim holding 'services' in their house the media would be all over this.
KevDen2005
07-11-2012, 19:47
Not really sure why the word "conservatives" has " ' ' " around it. Are you implying that we aren't conservative?
And no I didn't hear about it. But I think it is really messed up.
Sharpienads
07-11-2012, 19:50
Wow. Unbelievable. I don't even know what to say. How did they know he was holding a bible study in his house? And concerned for the number of people in the house for fire reasons? C'Mon... I grew up in the Phoenix area. There are a lot of houses that have a bunch of people living in them.
Not really sure why the word "conservatives" has " ' ' " around it. Are you implying that we aren't conservative?
And no I didn't hear about it. But I think it is really messed up.this^
KevDen2005
07-11-2012, 19:54
Wow. Unbelievable. I don't even know what to say. How did they know he was holding a bible study in his house? And concerned for the number of people in the house for fire reasons? C'Mon... I grew up in the Phoenix area. There are a lot of houses that have a bunch of people living in them.
I have no doubt it was an inside job, probably a mole that was placed there, possibly ATF. It's been done before with other "gangs" (and that is in quotes just in case people can't read through my sarcasm they can rest assured I don't actually think the bible study was a gang)
jackthewall81
07-11-2012, 19:54
I am not totally conservative, none the less, this is dumb.
KevDen2005
07-11-2012, 19:57
I am not totally conservative, none the less, this is dumb.
Well I guess my point is being conservative and upset about this are not mutually exclusive, however, I was just curious why it was labeled that way.
Sharpienads
07-11-2012, 19:58
What about book clubs? Would they be ok? Or having friends over to watch a movie?
jackthewall81
07-11-2012, 19:58
Well I guess my point is being conservative and upset about this are not mutually exclusive, however, I was just curious why it was labeled that way.
Agreed.
Sharpienads
07-11-2012, 19:59
Well I guess my point is being conservative and upset about this are not mutually exclusive, however, I was just curious why it was labeled that way.
Yeah, me too. But by the time I finished reading the article I had forgotten about it.
'Conservative' in today's media vocabulary typically implies bible thumping to some degree or another -- or at least a strong religious influence. Hence the quotation marks.
I am anything but "conservative' by the above definition - so according to the media I shouldn't care. However, I find the whole story offensive and down right insane.
Scanker19
07-11-2012, 20:10
My brain hurts.
Goodburbon
07-11-2012, 20:24
I too am not a religious conservative and I find this unacceptable.
theGinsue
07-11-2012, 20:32
And so it begins... The persecution of the faithful.
KevDen2005
07-11-2012, 20:33
And so it begins... The persecution of the faithful.
Yep. My thoughts exactly. Maybe they thought they were violating other parts of the Constitution way too much and thought they would be a little more equal in their violations.
stevelkinevil
07-11-2012, 20:47
Disgusting, I am not a christian and not a "conservative" but as a Liberty loving American this is just one more drop in the evidence bucket that this is far from the free country it was designed to be.
wctriumph
07-11-2012, 20:48
My brain hurts.
Mine is numb but I'm gritting my teeth.
"We're from the government and we are here to ....."
Great-Kazoo
07-11-2012, 21:27
And so it begins... The persecution of the faithful.
Koran reading, Burning of the American flag, effigies of .gov officials, and "illegal" families of 5 or more (unless you're going to college) exempted.
YMMV
gnihcraes
07-11-2012, 21:30
There must be more to the story that is not being told. Too many cars, too many people, continually growing amount of attendees.
Even if it was a zoning issue where was the notices, and last I check they didn't arrest and jail zoning issues but I could be wrong.
argonstrom
07-11-2012, 21:45
"'Satan'" told me to not post.
BushMasterBoy
07-11-2012, 21:54
Surprised that the government is doing bad things to people? Doesn't surprise me in the least. Eventually they will screw over enough people and the people will revolt. I won't be surprised then either.
Did you know 3000 World War II veterans were surgically lobotomised by the VA?
http://www.raven1.net/mcf/news/psychosurgerys-effects-still-linger.htm (http://www.raven1.net/mcf/news/psychosurgerys-effects-still-linger.htm)
Surprised?
Jailing people for conducting Bible study in their homes is a good reason to boycott Phoenix, Arizona.
theGinsue
07-11-2012, 22:16
"'Satan'" told me to not post.
Bellavite1 (http://www.ar-15.co/forums/member.php?u=2390), log off then you can log back in with your own account & quit using TheInternet's account. [Tooth]
keylay31
07-11-2012, 22:20
I'm "praying" that there's more to this story.
There must be more to the story that is not being told. Too many cars, too many people, continually growing amount of attendees.
^^This.
Arizona is a very conservative state and it would take a lot for something like this to happen.
My guess is that this person received several warnings from the city and refused to comply. The warnings were more than likely the result of numerous complaints from neighbors who could not have friends or family visit due to the lack of available street parking that was a result of tons of all the bible studiers.
How would you feel if the story read that the owner of a frat house was in jail for having nightly frat parties after being warned by the city multiple times?
Whether it be a frat party or a bible study a disturbance is a disturbance.
How about the rest of the story-
http://realestate.aol.com/blog/2012/07/07/phoenix-man-sentenced-to-jail-after-hosting-bible-study-in-his-h/27
This has been ongoing from 2007.
Everybody needs to comply with zoning and building codes. I don't care if it's a church or brothel or fishing club.
theGinsue
07-11-2012, 22:43
I'm "praying" that there's more to this story.
Um, are you zoned for that?
keylay31
07-11-2012, 23:29
"Salman then decided to construct a 2,000-square-foot building in his backyard and move the gatherings there."
Ok, now I'm beginning to see the picture...
It's the way he wanted it!
Bailey Guns
07-12-2012, 06:20
I don't think this issue is about "conservatives" or religious freedom.
His church (aka: bible study group) had grown too large for the location and he attracted too much attention. The city gave him the opportunity to make it right...he didn't.
I can see it now. 20 or 30 people at "bible study", building burns, people get killed or injured. The first place the lawyers are going to look are into the deepest pockets...the city's pockets. And the first question they're going to ask is, "Why did the city allow this to happen. Don't we have zoning laws to protect us from this sort of thing?"
bellavite1
07-12-2012, 06:57
Oh well...
Aside from all religious things, if you defy a legal order, wheter you agree or not with it, shit will happen.
Just because you perceive to be doing the work of God it does not put you above the law.
Should I receive a legal order to take down our yard decorations (say for a pubblic safety issue), I would comply the same day, although I wouldn't like to.
But this is not about what you like, you live in a society, you follow the rules.
Goodburbon
07-12-2012, 06:59
With the size of the fines and the jail time associated, is he now a felon? Did the state just take away his right to keep and bear arms for having a "church" in his back yard?
true Americans, whether they are atheist, muslim, jewish, or a believer in the flying spaghetti monster, should be outraged by big brothers over reach. this is complete BS. it may start with one religion, but it will soon come to you and your religion/lack there of religion.
[quote=SAnd;539644]How about the rest of the story-
http://realestate.aol.com/blog/2012/07/07/phoenix-man-sentenced-to-jail-after-hosting-bible-study-in-his-h/27
[quote]
[Beer]
OneGuy67
07-12-2012, 08:37
Apparently, there is more to the story...
From The Tucson Citizen:
The story is shocking on its face: a Phoenix man sentenced to 60 days in prison for holding Bible studies in his home for family and friends.
But Phoenix prosecutors, neighbors and a handful of judges have all agreed that the services he held were not just for family and friends — they were for dozens of congregants at the Harvest Christian Community Church, and his sentence had nothing to do with what was going on inside the building. However, it had everything to do with the size of the structure and its lack of exit signs, fire sprinklers and doors.
Michael Salman’s dispute with Phoenix dates to at least 2007, when, he claims in a video posted online, the city began harassing him and his wife as they tried to build a 2,000-square-foot game room adjacent to their home on their 1.5-acre property near 35th and Northern avenues.
“The only people who came to our home were family and friends,” Salman said in a video posted online before he reported to jail this week. “Our home was not open to the public; it was private.”
Information presented at Salman’s criminal trial directly contradicted his claim, however. For example, a private investigator testified that he was not acquainted with the Salmans when he attended the church and saw 40 or 50 people in attendance during regular services and 20 or 30 additional worshipers for special occasions such as baptisms.
Salman and his wife have not paid taxes on the property since an inspector from the Maricopa County Assessor’s Office approved Salman’s request to have the property classified as a church in 2008.
When the inspector visited the home, a sign outside the property included the name of the church, according to court documents, and the inspector found a podium, folding chairs and other items that allowed him to grant the property tax-exempt status.
At its heart, the case is about relatively mundane issues such as zoning, fire codes and construction codes, not the fact that Salman was conducting church services in his home, Phoenix prosecutor Aaron Carreon-Ainsa said.
“It has to do with whether there’s an exit sign over the door, or with the number of doors,” Carreon-Ainsa said of the game-room-turned-sanctuary, which contained more than 100 seats and a single door. “It’s an assembly-use case. What people have called us about is: ‘How can we do this with a person holding Bible studies with his family and friends in the living room?’ That’s not the case; that never has been the case.”
Salman’s lawyer, John Whitehead of the Washington, D.C.-based Rutherford Institute, plans to take the case to federal court with claims that Phoenix violated Salman’s rights to assemble, to free speech and to religious freedom.
Whitehead said he also plans to look at other religious groups in the area — Lutheran, Baptist, Nazarene and Vietnamese Catholic churches are among the houses of worship in the area — to determine whether they were treated in a similar fashion as the Salmans. Another video Salman posted shows police officers in protective gear approaching his home in summer 2009.
“They’re going to do to what they’re going to do,” Whitehead said. “They’re committed to their beliefs. The question for the government is: ‘What are you going to do with those types of people?’ I have a blueprint for them, and what you don’t do is send police into their home. I think that’s an issue here: How far can the government go to regulate this kind of activity?”
It’s a fair question, prosecutors concede.
The city’s conflict with Salman began even before he and his wife decided to build the game room onto their home, when concerns about the use of the property were beginning to emerge. Salman’s addition was approved by the city with the caveat that the property not house a business or church, among other uses.
The reason: Specific zoning and safety requirements would otherwise apply. Such concerns include adequate parking, emergency exits, Fire Department access and other measures intended to protect the safety of large numbers of people who might congregate there.
When city officials discovered Salman was using the game room as a sanctuary, prosecutors initiated a civil action against the Harvest Community Church, resulting in a fine of about $180,000, Carreon-Ainsa said.
That fine did not deter Salman from pursuing his calling.
“When we talk about (Neighborhood Services Division) investigations and the thousands every year, very, very few of those cases turn into criminal cases,” Carreon-Ainsa said. “We had the option of filing another set of civil cases. Why would we do that if a person consistently disobeys the law and we’ve tried the civil avenue and that doesn’t cause him to change his behavior? We then look for another tool in the toolbox, and in Phoenix, it’s a criminal case.”
Phoenix Municipal Judge Sallie Gaines levied the 60-day straight sentence, going against the recommendation of prosecutors who had initially requested a series of weekend stays to account for the time Salman needed to serve.
“Everyone is entitled under the United States Constitution to worship as they please,” Gaines said in her ruling. “But there is a reason for the codes, and that is for public safety. And that, I believe, is all that the state is asking, is that the code violations be rectified.”
Salman denied an interview request Wednesday after initially welcoming the opportunity.
The stint behind bars will not be his first.
Salman was sentenced to six years in prison in 1993 for shooting into an occupied home in Phoenix a year earlier. The victim told the judge that she felt one of the bullets from Salman’s gun go through her hair and barely miss her head, according to court documents.
A witness in that case told prosecutors that Salman had used a gun to threaten a man in a Paradise Valley mall one month before he was indicted in the shooting, that Salman had participated in other drive-by shootings and that he carried a gun in a concealed holster.
Prosecutors also alleged that Salman told former County Attorney Rick Romley’s son in December 1992 that “he and his father were willing to pay top dollar, or whatever it takes, for (Romley) to help him,” according to court documents.
Salman wrote to the judge that the shooting was selfish and immature.
But Phoenix prosecutor John Tutelman recounted Salman’s criminal history and allegations by neighbors and concluded in court: “This is a man who does what he wants, when he wants, and nobody can stop him.”
There is almost always more to the story...I find it interesting that someone felt the need to throw out a snippet to get a rise out of people on this board..almost trolling for responses if you will...
ChadAmberg
07-12-2012, 09:43
Wow. Unbelievable. I don't even know what to say. How did they know he was holding a bible study in his house? And concerned for the number of people in the house for fire reasons? C'Mon... I grew up in the Phoenix area. There are a lot of houses that have a bunch of people living in them.
Apparently they knew because the Pastor registered his house with the Government as a Church, and started taking the tax benefits for it.
jhood001
07-12-2012, 10:42
I can see it now. 20 or 30 people at "bible study", building burns, people get killed or injured. The first place the lawyers are going to look are into the deepest pockets...the city's pockets. And the first question they're going to ask is, "Why did the city allow this to happen. Don't we have zoning laws to protect us from this sort of thing?"
Get this man a chicken dinner.
Sharpienads
07-12-2012, 11:00
Yeah, makes more sense now.
What if he volunteered to upgrade to flame retardant bibles and LED candles?
What if he volunteered to upgrade to flame retardant bibles and LED candles? [ROFL1][ROFL2]
TEAMRICO
07-12-2012, 12:25
I prefer to use my " "'s " when referring to "Liberal Douche Bags"........
Thanks for playing the "Lets label every single American game".
The first requisite for the happiness of the people is the abolition of religion. Karl Marx
mevshooter
07-12-2012, 13:02
Well, the guy broke the law. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Now how about all of those illegal immigrant homes where there are 20 or more people living there, NOT paying their mortgage, thrashing the home for over 18-22 months, devaluing not only their property but the entire neighborhoods, and making it unbearable and unsafe for not only themselves but their surrounding neighbors?
No?
Nothing?
Oh wait, they aren't in the system... lets just go after the registered citizens, much easier to get to.
I should have given birth to my daughter at home, no paperwork, no social security number. Much greater financial benefits for those types these days.
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