View Full Version : What say the COAR herd ?
StagLefty
07-18-2012, 15:04
A couple of weeks ago I received the new rules and regulations for the mobile home park I live in. It requires you read and sign a form that you've read it and agree to them.
Besides the Firearms one below there are several that I don't agree with but this one really pisses me off. I've lived here for 24 years without any major problems and paid the lot rent on time in full for said 24 yrs. I own the home and consider it my castle.
I also find the firearm rule somewhat confusing as it says "not violating any laws" and then proceeds to pretty much say that they are not allowed-period.
My reply to the Mgrs. question about signing and turning in the form-Since when do my Constitutional rights stop at the entrance ? And I won't be signing an agreement I disagree with.
Comments Please
E. [B]No Firearms. You shall not make or permit any use of the Premises which violates any federal, state or local law, rule, ordinance or regulation or which violates,suspends or voids any policy or policies of insurance we may have. Firearms, munitions and ammunition shall not be discharged, exhibited, carried, kept or in any other way used in or at the Premises, the Manufactured Home or the Community. The use of fireworks within the Community is prohibited.
Great-Kazoo
07-18-2012, 15:07
Sounds like the are looking to be sued.
No firearms??? Unfortunately it looks like it's time for a new place to live
They aren't allowed to restrict that. Ask them the name of their attorney who okay'd that to be put out to residents.
blacklabel
07-18-2012, 15:09
Yeah, I'd start looking for a new place regardless of the outcome.
Can they restrict your possession of firearms if it's considered their property?
HBARleatherneck
07-18-2012, 15:10
delete
StagLefty
07-18-2012, 15:14
Unfortunately it looks like it's time for a new place to live
Yeah, I'd start looking for a new place regardless of the outcome.
I own the mobile home I live in outright. Retired on SS and part time job-I don't have the luxury of leaving. [Beer]
AK47 Ranger
07-18-2012, 15:19
Sounds like what they dont know wont hurt them
I challenged something similar at an apt. sign it elvis Presley and stfu.
RCCrawler
07-18-2012, 15:32
They aren't allowed to restrict that.
It's their property, they can create any crazy rules they want, if he doesn't like it his option is to leave.
StagLefty
07-18-2012, 15:37
It's their property, they can create any crazy rules they want, if he doesn't like it his option is to leave.
What about the fact that I own my house ? Even if it's their ground doesn't the 2nd come into play here ? Believe me there's a lot of gun owners here-I think I know every one of them. 365 homes in here !
Great-Kazoo
07-18-2012, 15:41
What about the fact that I own my house ? Even if it's their ground doesn't the 2nd come into play here ? Believe me there's a lot of gun owners here-I think I know every one of them. 365 homes in here !
You own the home, not the property is sits on. In reality you are renting the land.
What about the fact that I own my house ?
It's mobile and parked on somebody else's dirt. It'd be like me driving my wholly-owned vehicle, containing a firearm, onto property that expressly prohibits firearms. Their dirt, their rules.
Mobile home parks, HOA's in normal neighborhoods, Etc. -those sorts of things dictate how the occupants live certain aspects of their lives. Some folks are ok with them, some aren't.
What about the fact that I own my house ? Even if it's their ground doesn't the 2nd come into play here ? Believe me there's a lot of gun owners here-I think I know every one of them. 365 homes in here !
I could run next door and ask the attorney who works in our building... AFAIK this is unconstitutional. It's your domicile, you are the occupant and you own the building itself, thus you have the majority of liability exposure (that's why we carry liability insurance) that the management of the property itself could pass off to you anyway. Regardless, it's not a building owned by another entity, it's you who owns the building itself and your right to protect it with the 2nd amendment... I would seek out a lawyer and just ask them about the legality of this. It still sounds wrong no matter which side is in the right.
DD977GM2
07-18-2012, 15:49
Sounds like what they dont know wont hurt them
This is good advice. Shut your mouth and when you go shooting etc
make sure you load your vehicle quickly so no one sees you etc.
You may not agree with it but in the end their property equals
their rules and even HOAs have power to restrict your rights[Bang][Rant1][Bang][Rant1][Bang][Rant1]
even if its unconstitutional the lawyer fees will be more than the down payment on a house.
Chad4000
07-18-2012, 16:02
I would say dont tell anybody...
then say "youre welcome" when you save some little old lady on the property from being robbed somewhere down the line.... lol
newracer
07-18-2012, 16:09
Is this part of a new lease agreement? I think that would be the only way they could slip this in. Do you sign a new lease agreement every year? I wouldn't sign it and I would wait until the next lease agreement to see if it is included.
newracer
07-18-2012, 16:12
It's mobile and parked on somebody else's dirt. It'd be like me driving my wholly-owned vehicle, containing a firearm, onto property that expressly prohibits firearms. Their dirt, their rules.
Mobile home parks, HOA's in normal neighborhoods, Etc. -those sorts of things dictate how the occupants live certain aspects of their lives. Some folks are ok with them, some aren't.
This is good advice. Shut your mouth and when you go shooting etc
make sure you load your vehicle quickly so no one sees you etc.
You may not agree with it but in the end their property equals
their rules and even HOAs have power to restrict your rights[Bang][Rant1][Bang][Rant1][Bang][Rant1]
HOA's cannot restrict gun ownership. The only thing an HOA can restrict inside your home is a business and only then if it goes against the zoning.
A pointed call to their attorney may be in order. They have absolutely no right to restrict the legal ownership or possession of firearms on property they lease to you (your lot), any more than they would if you were renting a house from them. You can always take a black magic marker and redact the sections which you don't agree with before you sign it(if you choose to sign it at all).
Great-Kazoo
07-18-2012, 16:20
The only thing going for you is how long you have lived there. Perhaps you are grandfathered as others who reside there, prior to this new agreement.
This would be equivalent to them adding a rider to the lease that says "No Mormons allowed". Patently unconstitutional and discriminatory.
A pointed call to their attorney may be in order.
I think that's a great idea. Either that or try and find some free legal advice in your area. I can't imagine that sort of thing would be legal, but the leasing the land component could complicate things.
UncleDave
07-18-2012, 16:37
Just because they own the dirt does not abridge your rights. The supreme court ruled in the 50's that a landowner's rights to control what happens on his property is curtailed when he has opened that property to the public for his own profit. This was discussing first amendment issues, but the principle still applys. If this is language that is new to the lease agreement then either cross out that section and initial it or don't sign it. Sounds like something that someone made up. This is not something that they will want to persue in light of Heller.
Just because they own the dirt does not abridge your rights. The supreme court ruled in the 50's that a landowner's rights to control what happens on his property is curtailed when he has opened that property to the public for his own profit.
As an aside, how does that fly with apartments having no-pet policies?
Great-Kazoo
07-18-2012, 16:53
As an aside, how does that fly with apartments having no-pet policies?
It's a policy, to avoid damage to said apts.
It's a policy, to avoid damage to said apts.
Yep, pets you really can't fully control (goldfish and other aquarium/terrarium bound pets aside), a firearm, by nature, is able to be controlled- they don't just go off when no one is around. [Beer]
UncleDave
07-18-2012, 17:25
Pets are not a right guaranteed by the Constitution. That is the difference.
Yep, pets you really can't fully control (goldfish and other aquarium/terrarium bound pets aside) I keep my pet in my gun safe. You know... extra protection if someone breaks in to the safe.
Pets also aren't technically mentioned in the constitution (I fully concede to not having read it in a long time).
Waywardson174
07-18-2012, 17:30
I hate to say it, but there is absolutely no constitutional protection from this action. With the exception of the 13th Amendment, no constitutional provision restricts private action. The last four places I've rented have anti-firearm clauses (I asked about enforcement and they said not to scare the neighbors).
They are legal. It is a private contract and all its restrictions, except those regarding your servitude, are pretty much valid.
UncleDave
07-18-2012, 17:35
If you sign it it then is an agreement you are bound by. However, if you redacted that section before signing they will have no recourse. You can abridge your own rights, like submitting voluntarily to a search of your home.
Tinelement
07-18-2012, 17:47
Do you ignore "no firearm" signs whilst carrying??
Keep your mouth shut and sign it, or move.
Yeah, I'd start looking for a new place regardless of the outcome.
Can they restrict your possession of firearms if it's considered their property?
I feel like I don't own the land I live on due to the taxes every little bit of government charges me.
Staglefty I would contact him and let him know it is unconstitutional and ask him to revise it.
or as others have said cross out the section and send it back.
or don't sign anything and see if they even contact you at all.
spqrzilla
07-18-2012, 18:29
Pets are not a right guaranteed by the Constitution. That is the difference.
The Second Amendment is a restriction on government action. Not private party action. A trailer park that prohibited firearms would not be violating the Second Amendment of the Bill of Rights.
Goodburbon
07-18-2012, 18:33
The Second Amendment is a restriction on government action. Not private party action. A trailer park that prohibited firearms would not be violating the Second Amendment of the Bill of Rights.
incorrect. The first amedment specifies limitations on Congress's power i.e. "congress shall make no law". Whereas the second amendment states "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" specifying no specific entity that can not infringe on that right, thus including any party that would intend to do so.
But then, I'm just a useful idiot.[Tooth]
spqrzilla
07-18-2012, 18:38
Goodburbon, you are unfortunately, wrong. The Second Amendment restricts Federal action, and has been incorporated against the states via the 14th Amendment by Supreme Court decision.
It does not apply to private party action, any property owner may restrict firearms possession without infringing upon the Second Amendment rights.
incorrect. The first amedment specifies limitations on Congress's power i.e. "congress shall make no law". Whereas the second amendment states "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" specifying no specific entity that can not infringe on that right, thus including any party that would intend to do so.
But then, I'm just a useful idiot.[Tooth]
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
The Bill of Rights marks the limitations of government's power. Nothing to do with private organizations.
Goodburbon
07-18-2012, 18:43
Goodburbon, you are unfortunately, wrong. The Second Amendment restricts Federal action, and has been incorporated against the states via the 14th Amendment by Supreme Court decision.
It does not apply to private party action, any property owner may restrict firearms possession without infringing upon the Second Amendment rights.
and you can choose not to go onto their property. Your landlord is allowing you use of his property in exchange for monetary compensation. Any constitutionally protected activity that you may partake in, within the confines of your home has to be protected. Those activities are protected in cars in Louisiana, does Colorado not protect it's citizens rights?
.
spqrzilla
07-18-2012, 18:44
I'm not aware of any Colorado state law that forbids a privately owned trailer park from banning firearms possession by its residents or visitors.
Goodburbon
07-18-2012, 18:45
As I continue to see fellow "like minded" citizens capitulate that they don't have rights, I am more and more reminded of how imprisoned we all truly are. The sickest part is that most of it is voluntary.
spqrzilla
07-18-2012, 18:49
Goodburbon, my point is that a lot of people talk about "rights" that are figments of their imagination, not understanding the actual scope of things like the Bill of Rights.
Goodburbon
07-18-2012, 18:54
I am not a lawyer, didn't even play one on tv, but I would not sign such a document
StagLefty
07-18-2012, 20:15
Do you ignore "no firearm" signs whilst carrying??
Keep your mouth shut and sign it, or move.
WTF-this is in my home [Rant1]
DavieD55
07-18-2012, 20:56
Sounds like what they dont know wont hurt them
+1
So if they can ban guns, can a landowner then legally ban other tangibles such as gas and diesel vehicles? Of course, no one in their right mind would sign a contract with that, but could they be banned? Just wondering.
Interesting line between landowner and civilian rights!
RCCrawler
07-18-2012, 22:33
WTF-this is in my home [Rant1]
Actually it's not a home in the states eyes, it's a vehicle.
I know it sounds weird, but I do have some experience with this, I owned a mobile home park for a few years.
Personally I'd call their bluff and just not sign it and see what happens. Don't make a big stink about it, don't bitch about it to anyone, just act like you never got it.
I don't believe that they have any jurisdiction over your house, just as they don't have any jurisdiction over your vehicle. You can even take a gun onto school grounds as long as it remains in your vehicle.
Actually it's not a home in the states eyes, it's a vehicle.
It's not a vehicle now, nor has it ever been. Lots of things are "mobile" that aren't also "vehicles."
Great-Kazoo
07-18-2012, 22:35
Do you ignore "no firearm" signs whilst carrying??
Keep your mouth shut and sign it, or move.
I ignore No Firearms signs, unless it's a federal building. The worst they can do is ask you to leave. What's that saying?
Concealed means Concealed.
I ignore No Firearms signs, unless it's a federal building. The worst they can do is ask you to leave. What's that saying?
Concealed means Concealed.
Aside from federal buildings (and schools) there are "No Firearms" signs?
Funny... I must need my eyes checked, I though any sign with a gun on it was like this:
http://www.mysecuritysign.com/img/lg/K/Lawful-Concealed-Weapons-Permitted-Sign-K-8188.gif
[AR15]
hghclsswhitetrsh
07-18-2012, 22:57
You must not to Jared the jewelry store much huh ronin?
I don't believe that they have any jurisdiction over your house, just as they don't have any jurisdiction over your vehicle. You can even take a gun onto school grounds as long as it remains in your vehicle.
I was thinking along the same lines. I don't see anything wrong with having guns in your home or in your vehicle no matter where they are parked as long as you are legal to own them. the difference is when you walk them from your home to your vehicle.
BPTactical
07-18-2012, 23:10
Is this a gated and secured community? Do they have a means to protect you and ensure your safety and well being?
They do not have the right to deny you the ability to protect yourself.
Instead of a signature I would provide the text of the 2cnd with the caveat of: "what part of "Shall Not Be Infringed" do you not understand?"
Great-Kazoo
07-19-2012, 00:32
Why not have a CO-AR15 meet and greet @ Stag Lefty's some day soon??
It will be like the open carry party we had on Ginsue's front lawn!
It will be like the open carry party we had on Ginsue's front lawn!
When da hell did that happen!?
When da hell did that happen!?
About the same time we voted Ted Nuggent as President. :(
About the same time we voted Ted Nuggent as President. :(
Lol!
streetglideok
07-19-2012, 06:53
I'd suggest, instead of arguing and listening to armchair Perry Masons give their interpretation of the law, contact an attorney on the issue. There is a website online that has a consortium of lawyers that you can submit a question to. Only when you are satisfied with your answer, do you pay like $60. Lots of businesses try to restrict, or infringe on our rights, whether its you as an employee, or as a consumer. Sometimes they are allowed, sometimes they think they can get by with something that they really cant. If this wasn't the case, there would be alot less lawyers.
StagLefty
07-19-2012, 07:19
It's not a vehicle now, nor has it ever been. Lots of things are "mobile" that aren't also "vehicles."
Actually the title is with the DMV and I pay a yearly tax to the DMV [Beer]
Actually the title is with the DMV and I pay a yearly tax to the DMV [Beer]
I stand corrected then. Most mobile homes now are basically just modular homes though right?
Scanker19
07-19-2012, 07:47
Depending on the state how it is arranged. i.e. on axles =vehicle. On the Ground = home with property tax.
StagLefty
07-19-2012, 08:21
I stand corrected then. Most mobile homes now are basically just modular homes though right?
Depending on the state how it is arranged. i.e. on axles =vehicle. On the Ground = home with property tax.
There's 365 homes in here and I believe every one of them has axles,old and new.
Great-Kazoo
07-19-2012, 08:30
Depending on the state how it is arranged. i.e. on axles =vehicle. On the Ground = home with property tax.
Unless an addition has been added, making part of it sitting on a foundation, it is still registered with DMV, axles or not. My old business partner has a mobile home that they built a nice addition on to it, this changed the status.
You must not to Jared the jewelry store much huh ronin?
This may not surprise you in the least, but I've never had a reason to purchase anything from a jewelry store (with the exception of that one time, but that was the Wal-Mart jewelry counter [Tooth])... ever. [Coffee]
Get their attorneys #, see if that shocks them. That someone is actually contesting it. Don't admit that you own firearms, Because like what was said earlier. What they don't know, wont hurt them!
What about the fact that I own my house ? Even if it's their ground doesn't the 2nd come into play here ? Believe me there's a lot of gun owners here-I think I know every one of them. 365 homes in here !
Not trying to be a dick even though I'm highly proficient at it, and I'll also admit I haven't read any responses past this, so maybe it was already mentioned but here's my $.02
You more than likely own the vehicle you drive, but if you park that vehicle on private property that is adamant about maintaining the fact they want no firearms on the property, you have quite the problem there don't you?
A.k.a. if the house has wheels, and you own the house you might want to think about where you park it, especially considering the property owner is a douche bag that doesn't like guns. Just saying.
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