anti gun defense tips and suggestions

[alxone]

there seem to be a lot of people attacking the 2nd and our way of life . i figured id start this thread so we can come up with a few ideas for an educated response to to anti gunners out there . ill start with a few quotes that have helped me so far

from the peaceful community
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." -Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

from the founding fathers
“Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who didn't.” - Ben Franklin

form the music community (hip-hop)
"understand it is the consciousness behind the gun That determines if the gun is positive or negative So let's not blame it on no pistols, no guns, no gats Let's blame it on the consciousness of the mind holding the gat" -krsone

[alxone]

you know you have won an argument when to other guy answers with "whatever dude" [ROFL1]

[Bailey Guns]

Whatever, dude.

[Coffee]

[alxone]

Whatever, dude.

[Coffee]smart ass [Tooth]

[DD977GM2]

smart ass [Tooth]
Dude Whatever[Stooge]

[Cylinder Head]

The anti's have not put together a single sound argument that I can think of. It's always "look at Europe!" or "why do you need x gun with x ammunition in the 'clip'". Everything is emotional with them.

[pdr240]

Thanks for starting this thread axlone! Don't have any words just now but I'll think on it. I do think this'll help us stay calm when up against the emotions like cylinder said.

[Whistler]

This is lengthy and wordy but an interesting read that might help you authoritatively dispel misrepresentation characterizing the bulk of anti-gun proponent talking points or at least understand them.

GUNS, MURDERS, AND THE CONSTITUTION

A Realistic Assessment of Gun Control (http://www.guncite.com/journals/gun_control_katesreal.html#h7.2)

[lifeon2]

I try to explain to people that a tool should not be blamed for what its owner does.

[TEAMRICO]

KRS One!!!!
Have not heard that name in a long time!

Nice one! ....but what ev's dude!

[Chad4000]

I think that the greater point is that the argument is rediculous.

anybody taking the anti gun position literally doesnt know what they are talking about. there is not one shread of evidence out there to support the claim that gun control works. the idea of gun control is only a pawn in political power.

to convince somebody that they aren't thinking straight on this, takes a long time. it takes a certain amount of perfectly timed sarcasm, the proper amount of wit, tone, and real world examples.

we need to be able to relate (yeah I know it's stupid lol) to the opposition to affectively change opinion. remember we have to debate on a different level, with different people sometimes. if you arent getting anywhere with the person you are debating, simply remember, that you are not trying to change that one mind, that you are going for the minds sitting next to him or her.

everyone go watch "thank you for smoking".. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW87GRmunMY

(somebody can imbed that if you want).

it sucks to think about sometimes, but there are minds that we wont be able to change... but there are more impressionable minds watching that interaction. so how you come accross to those people is of great importance. everybody willing to have this debate with people should know a little about psychology. if you dont, look some stuff up.

remember this simple phrase that I have used before. "I promise, any bad guys hearing this would rather be in a room with you then me ;) "

delivered with the proper smirk, tone, (maybe directed at the cute girl of the group) etc.. can be very persuading..

[Byte Stryke]

if gun control works? Why are there so many Slaughters in gun free zones?

[Ronin13]

I'm surprised you'd quote KRS-One... he's pretty cool!
I'd say in the words of Earl "DMX" Simmons (since we're quoting hip hop here):
"Guns don't kill people, people kill people!"

There are so many logical, and well thought out arguments that state how guns are not to blame, but I've yet to see any reasonable arguments supporting making us like the UK... For one, I think Uncle Ted put it very bluntly on CNN:
"Where you have the most armed citizens in America, you have the lowest violent crime rate. Where you have the worst gun control [meaning more of it!] you have the highest violent crime rate." Facts, right there! But Anti's hate that dreaded F-word!
OzJbpA8_wl4

[speedysst]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-gzg734hoTdk/T9adigxz-TI/AAAAAAAAG5I/PQRpDg2D1xU/s400/charlton+heston.jpg (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-gzg734hoTdk/T9adigxz-TI/AAAAAAAAG5I/PQRpDg2D1xU/s1600/charlton+heston.jpg)

[Chad4000]

if gun control works? Why are there so many Slaughters in gun free zones?

problem with these is that if you are talking to somebody who knows anything, they will have stats of some sort too.... (yeah stupid ones, but you wont be able to fact check them while you are standing there).

what about relating it to something that is important to a liberal?

:disclaimer- the following statement is a devils advocate position that you might consider using to persuade retards. yes the follow statement is sarcastic in nature, and abbreviated for attention spans lol: "would you be in favor of stricter legislation on free speech? I believe that restricting free speech would allow for a more controlled debate. humans are by nature, reactionary beings, and as tensions mount, violence makes its way in".

liberal says "omg,,, that's retarded!!! that's one of the most basic human rights!!!"

normal person (still sarcastic.. but sell it) - "well of course, but I want safety to be paramount. if we are willing to give up basic human rights for safety, then I think the first amendement should be the highest priority."

liberal- "Well I would rather give up safey then my most basic human rights!"

normal person - "ahhh... then I actually think we are on the same side of this argument. because I totally agree with you... sometime it's more important for the country to have these basic human rights in place then it is for us to be "safe", wouldnt you agree?"

liberal - "well I believe that we can have both, safety and the most basic human rights" (now you have cracked the safe... keep working)

normal person - "absolutely, i agree."

liberal - "so you would be in favor of more gun control?"

normal person - "well no... I thought we agreed that it would benefit the country to have basic human rights intact?"

liberal - "wait.. so you think that owning a gun is a basic human right?"

normal person - "protecting yourself and your family is a basic human right is it not?"

liberal - "lol omg here we go,, now you are going to say that owning an AR-15 with a 1000 round clip (lol) is a basic human right bla bla bla liberal goes nuts"....

normal person calmly looks over at the people watching this interaction.... liberal going nuts, nobody paying attention to him.. everyone thinking about what you just said....

[dwalker460]

When I am encountered with an anti-gun fact spouter I turn the tables and go emotional. I ask, in all seriousness how they would feel if they were out with their loved ones and some nutjob criminal opened fire on a crowd and the guy next to them or thier wife or husband or child was shot. How would they feel knowing that they have no way of protecting themselves from this person because they chose to go about unarmed. That because they backed anti-gun laws none of the law-abiding citizens in the crowd were armed and so this criminal, who may or may not have acquired his weapon legally, can fire away without fear from his targets. I ask them how guilty they would feel about knowing that had they supported gun ownership the entire incident might have been averted as generically, criminals do not pick fights with armed citizens, instead specifically targeting those that they KNOW are likely to be unarmed.
Obviously they will initially spout off that if no one had guns blah blah blah, but then I point out to them that in the UK guns have been outlawed and yet look at how many innocents have died in shootings, bombings, etc.? In the cities in this country where guns are heavily regulated there is more gun and violent crimes than in areas where citizens are more likely than not to own and possibly even be carrying firearms.

They talk about "assault weapons" and magazine capacity and why would someone need so much ammo etc. and how it just has to be controlled and so I point out that no matter what, if someone wants to have something or do something, they are gpoing to do it. Drugs are illegal and yet nothing stops them.

Now the intelligent anit-gunner will make some arguments about gun ownership, dangers to children in the home, etc. etc. and how we must "protect" each other from such inherent evil. The most useful thing there is to ask if they have alcohol in the home? Do they support legalized drug use? These are things that definitely present a danger to children in the home and no matter how responsible you are as an adult, are very easily abused by others. Since many anti-gunners are supporters of legalized drug use and "personal freedoms" I find it very satisfying to use this argument against them, as gun ownership, no matter whether it is a .22 pistol, an airgun or a full-on "assault rifle" is a personal freedom.

I also enjoy watching anti-gunners squirm a bit when asked to define or identify an "assault rifle", since many of them have no idea and just pick the black gun with attachments.

I do all this with a serious but congenial tone. I have always found that if you are on the offensive most of the anti-gunners will just get all pissy and whine and shut down and just end up more convinced they are right. Add a little brevity, maybe a laugh or two while still being serious and many will sway a tiny bit. I also offer to take them out shooting so they can answer the question of "why" for themselves.

[Chad4000]

I do all this with a serious but congenial tone. I have always found that if you are on the offensive most of the anti-gunners will just get all pissy and whine and shut down and just end up more convinced they are right. Add a little brevity, maybe a laugh or two while still being serious and many will sway a tiny bit. I also offer to take them out shooting so they can answer the question of "why" for themselves.


totally agree....

[cofi]

Why do 100 round mags need to be legal?
Why would we allow our citizens to own military weapons?

Been hearing those a lot recently

[Chad4000]

Why do 100 round mags need to be legal?
Why would we allow our citizens to own military weapons?

Been hearing those a lot recently


well because the military has them....

I mean the origins of the 2nd werent so much to protect yourself from your neighbor.....

[ChunkyMonkey]

A tad off course.. Beck's The Blaze has compiled a list of recent moments that were blamed to conservatives but were completely wrong.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/six-moments-where-the-media-has-wrongly-blamed-conservatives-for-violence/

[dwalker460]

Why do 100 round mags need to be legal?

Why would they need to be illegal? with a mag change taking less than .5 second to swap even GI 30 round mags, is a 100 round mag really going to make much difference? We are not talking about a full-auto weapon in this case, so rate of fire is not going to change by much. Capacity is really pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Really more of a distraction tactic used to scare folk with the mental picture of some nutjob running around blasting away at full autoburn.


Why would we allow our citizens to own military weapons?

Been hearing those a lot recently

The weapon in question most are concerned with is not a military weapon, it is a military style weapon and there is a difference. I firmly believe the 2ND amendment protects the citizens right to be at least as well armed as the military. It helps to make sure those asking these questions understand that NO LEGALLY BOUGHT full-auto weapon has ever been used in a commission of a crime in this country since the passing of the law controlling them. It also helps if you can gently explain to them that owning a machine gun is absolutely legal, assuming you purchase the Tax Stamp as required by law and follow the procedure for purchasing.

Have found it helps if you gently remind them that much like a woman will do with shoes or handbags etc. many collect firearms in the same way. Asking a woman why she needs 100 pairs of shoes that all look the same to many people will get you not much more than a funny look and a "because I like them" etc. I personally have 400 or so 1/32 slot cars and a 100 foot track in my basement, and when asked why I reply pretty much the same, I like them and they are one of my hobbies. A gun enthusiast is no different, so why the need to explain why one may have guns they have never fired, or a whole rack of historic military or western or whatever guns? I am sure theres a guy out there that has a wild hair to own at least one of every polymer pistol produced and has a collection that would make no sense to many, and you know what? THATS HIS EFFIN RIGHT. And you know what else? Until he decides to pick one of those pistols up and commit a crime the law supports his right to do so and as an AMERICAN citizen it is the duty of every single American to support and protect that right, with just as much or more effort as protecting free speech or religious freedom or any other right that might seem less dangerous or make more sense to you personally.

[Mick-Boy]

I usually use the Socratic method.

Who is responsible for your safety? (police)

Have you ever heard of Castle Rock V. Gonzales? (no)

So if not the police then who is responsible for your safety? (uncomfortable silence)

I don't look to "win" an argument with a person who hates guns. They don't think logically enough to be swayed by rational argument. Just leave them with that awkward feeling of being exposed and vulnerable that makes then re-examine their position.

[Ronin13]

dwalker,
can I just say dammit I'm glad you joined! Well said. Why does my neighbor need to collect rocks from all over the world where he's gone climbing? Why do we do anything? Because it's our right and we're free to do so. People need to stop asking why for all this. Really the way I see it, you will never be able to fully prevent bad people from doing bad things. If John Doe is a law-abiding, sane, rational person and he goes out and buys a gun nothing will stop him from using that gun in an evil way. He has no history of mental illness, no history of violent crime, and there is absolutely no way to stop him from committing an evil act. Even if you took away guns and the legal right to own them, he'll find a way to do bad things... hell he might, as one said here the other day, hijack a bus and drive it off a cliff! The only way to prevent crime, really as far as I can tell, is to arm the good people and help persuade the bad that what they're about to do is a bad idea.

Ooops, I'm sorry, I used logic... don't tell the left! [Coffee]

[MED]

How about we ban movies with violent content (because we obviously can't handle it)?


How about we ban games with violent content (because we obviously can't handle it)?


How about we ban news media with violent content (because we obviously can't handle it)?


This guy was obviously obsessed with a fictional character outside of reality. Does this mean we should censor all content because it might give somebody an idea? It is obvious to a rational person that you can't change human behavior by eliminating an object or an idea, and I doubt people want to start eliminating things that they enjoy because some people can't handle them.


Most people today don't understand why the founders sacrificed and died in a revolution. YES, I said REVOLUTION where the citizens took up arms against an oppressive government. These same ignorant people have no comprehension that this can happen again and we may need to fight for our rights again someday. That being said, the majority of the world's population don't live as we live. A socialist mindset is not capable of seeing that this country might not be wealthy in the future, and training and weapons is what is needed to defend a man's family.


Additionally, the cultural point should be stated. For many people, the AR-15 and rifles similar are used in rifle clubs and competition. Why should people give up what they enjoy because a few bad people misuse a tool. People misuse vehicles resulting in deaths every day with far more fatalities. This can be said for numerous items. The actual number of deaths resulting from firearms is actually pretty low.


Ultimately, a person who is set on killing people is going to kill people regardless of how it is done. If, and that is a big IF, gun access was restricted, a person bent on doing harm will find a way.


Finally, I find it ironic and kind of sad that 12 people dead because of a madman is a national tragedy (because guns were used) where people are pushing for the end of our freedoms and the loss of 14 people in one car accident barely hits the news when a truck was misused. Six more died in a chain reaction crash in NY. Right before this happened, Israel children were killed with a bomb. Even if gun grabbers could grab guns, do we want a madmen learning how to make IEDs that actually work; I would rather deal with the small arms fire. I remember Europe in the 80s. It was a monthly if not weekly occurrence that a bomb exploded and killed numerous people.


It is the responsibility of people to protect their family, and people should be honest with themselves about friends and family. If somebody I know is going off the deep end and is a threat to others, I will do something about it.


My question is always this when people talk about Gun Control...what do you hope to accomplish? You ASSume these people would be alive; you don't think something else would be used? What if they started throwing grenades into the crowd?

[Chad4000]

I usually use the Socratic method.

Who is responsible for your safety? (police)

Have you ever heard of Castle Rock V. Gonzales? (no)

So if not the police then who is responsible for your safety? (uncomfortable silence)

I don't look to "win" an argument with a person who hates guns. They don't think logically enough to be swayed by rational argument. Just leave them with that awkward feeling of being exposed and vulnerable that makes then re-examine their position.


I like that too....

[Ronin13]

MED,
I won't quote you, but very well said! I have some bad news for people... in the last week more people died at the hands of the evil Taliban in Afghanistan than Americans to guns in the past MONTH. More people died from starvation in the Darfur Region of Sudan in the past month than Americans from guns in the last YEAR. Where is the outcry over these atrocities? Closer to home, more are being killed by the Cartels in Mexico than Americans by guns. Still nothing. People have some very fu*ked up perceptions and motivations.

[CrufflerSteve]

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks. (Thomas Jefferson, Encyclopedia of T. Jefferson, 318 [Foley, Ed., reissued 1967])

Look at the death toll over time from riots at sporting events outside the US. US sports nuts are relatively peaceful.

Most anti's have no global perspective. Just the last few weeks in Iraq, Syria, Sudan Halfghanistan are not cheerful.

Steve

[Mtn.man]

I may need a hearing aid, but on 9news they just went over the gun laws nation wide by most restrictive state, most relaxed state.
CO falls some where in the middle, we have the most restrictive on machine guns and full auto.
And the part where I think I need hearing help
The news anchor some young guy say well it's comforting to hear the TRUE facts on our state. Pretty sure he was in agreement with just leave it alone.

[Chad4000]

quick, no time to search (in a debate and leaving work lol)

link for stats on gun related murders per year?
maybe a link for murders in other developed countries where gun laws are strict?

had somebody tell me that there are 10000 gun related murders per year, more then all the other devolped countries combined..

[TFOGGER]

I've found the best way to convert antigun evangelists is to take them to a well run shooting range and teach them the basics of safety. Point out the other responsible gun owners following all the safety rules. Fear comes from ignorance, if you remove the fear, then logic can creep in.

[sniper7]

i just ask people if they blame the car for the accident, the beer bottle for the drunk, or the spoon for making someone fat.

[alxone]

ill start asking this of libs
if you want more gay rights , less censorship and more freedom then why try to take away my freedoms ?