Need a little help with hi-cap mag argument

[Ronin13]

Okay, so yesterday I got into a debate with the old man about guns, and he came in today and wanted to chat more about it. And he kinda stumped me, because outside of "because" I couldn't really come up with anything good for it. He said: "What is the purpose of a high capacity (50+ rounds) magazine? Outside of killing a lot of people without reloading what is the purpose?" He then went on to say "What if the gun owners were to compromise, throw everyone a carrot and say 'okay, we'll allow a law that restricts 50+ round magazines and makes them illegal, and that's all.'" Of course on this I said if you compromise on one thing they'll try to get you to compromise on everything, like that whole saying "If you give a mouse a cookie... he's gonna ask for a glass of milk." The Brady Bunch has a no retreat, no surrender policy on taking our guns away.

So, what is a good argument, a solid, rational, logical argument on hi-cap mags (again talking 50+)? I for one am for them, but I can't come up with a good argument supporting it, and I could use some help.
Thanks! [Beer][AR15]

[Great-Kazoo]

Did you fire the liberal secretary yet? Regarding the capacity of magazines, since they are not illegal, there should be no issue owning them.
Would your father "compromise" with clients who only want to pay X amount for ins? Of course not. Remind him with the new health care law this is one of the "slippery slope" thing that could happen to him and the ins industry.
What does your dad drive? Does he need a truck as a hybrid can do the same thing, etc etc etc.
STOP arguing with your dad. Take him shooting. Bring the mags, BUT load each of them to no more than 5-10 tops. See how he likes reloading every 5 minutes.

[DFBrews]

Zombies.

Ask him wetter there should be a governer on cars that limit it to the speed limit only. Or a horse power limit. How about a square foot limit on the size of a home or the amount of land that you can own.

[HBARleatherneck]

delete

[Mazin]

Shooting sports.

[cofi]

Shooting sports.

this is the only decent argument ive seen

[Rucker61]

If the assumption is that high capacity magazines are only for killing lots of people, are reduced capacity magazines any less dangerous? How many people should we allow killers to shoot at one time before it's the magazine's fault and not the shooter's?

[funkymonkey1111]

this isn't russia--you aren't limited to what you need here--it's what you want--and that's damn good enough for me.

[asmo]

So would belts containing 300 rounds be okay but magazines containing +50 rounds not be okay? Makes sense to me.

[dwalker460]

reloading a magazine is not a particularly effective way of stopping people from shooting people. However, reload enough 30-rounders at a day on the range and see how much you start liekling the idea of 100round mags.

Also, hi-cap mags can be a real PITA, they are heavy, take forever to reload, and can be more prone to feed issues, which I guess could be considered a good thing.

How about just responding that if someone is shooting at you, who cares how big a mag he has, shoot back first and check mag size later?

[asmo]

Oh, and the real and correct argument here is: The purpose of the 2nd amendment was to protect the People from the government. Last I checked there were a lot more of them than there are of me -- and they seem to come in packs.

People don't like that argument because it means killing things - and people get all mushy inside when you talk about stuff like that.

If you need something nicer try: During the AWB we limited the size of magazines (say 'clips' so they will understand) and it had absolutely no effect on gun violence.

[Rucker61]

Oh, and the real and correct argument here is: The purpose of the 2nd amendment was to protect the People from the government. Last I checked there were a lot more of them than there are of me -- and they seem to come in packs.

People don't like that argument because it means killing things - and people get all mushy inside when you talk about stuff like that.

If you need something nicer try: During the AWB we limited the size of magazines (say 'clips' so they will understand) and it had absolutely no effect on gun violence.

Columbine's Harris had a 9mm carbine with 10 round mags that he fired 96 rounds from. Evidently it isn't the magazine capacity that determines a criminal's capacity for evil.

[Chad4000]

Oh, and the real and correct argument here is: The purpose of the 2nd amendment was to protect the People from the government. Last I checked there were a lot more of them than there are of me -- and they seem to come in packs.

People don't like that argument because it means killing things - and people get all mushy inside when you talk about stuff like that.

If you need something nicer try: During the AWB we limited the size of magazines (say 'clips' so they will understand) and it had absolutely no effect on gun violence.


exactly... [Beer]

[Whistler]

They are legal so the point is moot. There is no empirical evidence to conclude so-called "hi-cap" magazines have resulted in or predicated any increase in civilian violence. As much as it "sounds" logical that you could perpetrate greater harm with such an accessory the reality is it simply minimizes reloading though as has been pointed out the trade off is in weight and reliability. Why do we need additional restrictions where no evidence an issue exists and the motivation is fear-based what-if scenarios?

[DD977GM2]

Definatly stop argueing with your Dad. Id throw some facts about firearm murders and assualts etc and compare pistols to rifles and your answer is that.

Rifles are used in very few murders and robberies and assualts etc compared to pistols.

[Ronin13]

All very good points, plus I just kinda stated that it's far easier for me (as equipment dictates) to carry 12 30-round PMAGs for my AR than it is to carry even 3 50-round drums. [Beer]

But today wasn't really an argument, it was a healthy discussion (and I've learned now that the tyranny argument shouldn't be brought up because he uses words like "Conspiracy nut" and "the right wing version of those Greenpeace freaks"). Yes it's very unlikely that we will have our government turn against us, but I prepare in the back of my mind. I honestly will never have a need for mags bigger than 30rnds, as I've learned and continue to train in tac-reloads and speed-reloads with said standard issue 30-rnd PMAGs. [Beer]

[Great-Kazoo]

The most important thing to point out to him regarding magazine capacity is this.

Suggest to him we make murder illegal, when he blinks say, see dad that how stupid the mag debate is.

[WinterBoarder]

What is the purpose of factory vehicles that have 400, 500, 600, even almost 700 horsepower from the factory? What is the purpose of a car that goes from 0-60 in 3 seconds? What's the purpose of taking a truck that never goes off-road and putting a 4 inch list kit and 40 inch mud tires on it?

The answer... there is no real purpose, but people in America like things bigger, faster, louder and quicker.

[bellavite1]

The most important thing to point out to him regarding magazine capacity is this.

Suggest to him we make murder illegal, when he blinks say, see dad that how stupid the mag debate is.
Nice [Beer]!

[WillysWagon]

Suggest to him we make murder illegal, when he blinks say, see dad that how stupid the mag debate is.

I like this !!!!

[Ronin13]

The most important thing to point out to him regarding magazine capacity is this.

Suggest to him we make murder illegal, when he blinks say, see dad that how stupid the mag debate is.

That's awesome! I already closed it off with him before he left for the day this morning by saying- Why does it matter how big his magazine is? He could have dozens of smaller capacity magazines and still shoot the same amount of ammo. It doesn't matter- what matters is, as stated by Rucker, is his capacity for evil. I hate to use the term, but unfortunately on that day there were no sheep-dogs in that theater.

[akumadiavolo]

What is the point of allowing cars that can exceed every speed limit in 5 seconds? Whats the point of allowing fatty foods with little to no no nutritional value? What's the point of allowing houses that have more space than you will reasonably need?What's the point of allowing people to drink alcohol as it has no practical purpose? What's the point of allowing expensive clothes when cheap ones will do just fine.

Last I checked we don't have to have a practical reason for the freedoms and rights we have.

[CrufflerSteve]

32,885 traffic deaths in the US 2010. We'd cut that dramatically by limiting the speed limit to 25. We could also cut it by limiting engine size to tiny little two cylinders.

Here's a set of government stats on deaths: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm

Lot's of these could be limited by regulation. The 'Fat Police' could get to work.

While we're limiting things - let's limit the press. They've been living in Aurora since the massacre and will be there for a year. Limit the amount of coverage and ban use of the monster's picture.

There's lots of things that cause more damage than mag capacity but people don't even want to hear about it.

Steve

[tmckay2]

What's the purpose of alcohol? Relaxation? Give me a break there are hundreds of other ways to relax. So what is it purpose? To kill people? There isn't much difference really, it's a freedomso we should be able to enjoy it. The real question is on a semi auto rifle why NOT have a large mag? Does it really give that much of an advantage to a mass murderer? The answer is no.

[One Shot]

whats wrong with the arguement that people just want to own them and have them because its a part of their hobby? I need a hi-cap magazine because I want one and I can have one.
Why do people need a car that can exceed the legal speed limits...? Because they want one and because they can..
Buy a couple extra hi-cap magazines and stock up if you think its going to be an issue to where you cant get them..

[One Shot]

Just dont get in the arguement with Piers Morgan about it..he's so one sided it makes me sick.

[Song Dog]

My brother thinks high cap mags are for people who can't shoot...I say they are for people who don't want to reload as much and shoot more. 6 to 1, half dozen to the other. Let them ban hi cap mags......looks like it's time to invest in a belt fed!

[Bailey Guns]

this is the only decent argument ive seen

Then you haven't been looking very hard.

There are several good arguments:


They're legal. Period. We don't limit beer to 12 packs or 24 packs or 36 packs. Alcohol kills FAR more people every year than do guns
Part of the 2A is to have a defense against a tyrannical government. Even in the US v Miller case the supreme court said (paraphrased) that it couldn't be proven the short-barreled shotgun was typically used in military service, therefore it could be regulated by the government. In other words, military style guns should be available to the average citizen. From the court decision:
"The significance attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. 'A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline.' And further, that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time."
There have been several cases where so-called "high-capacity" magazines have been used in defense: LA riots, Katrina aftermath, etc... I've never heard anyone who's been in a gunfight complain that they brought too much ammunition
Sporting events...which includes recreational shooting
Ask your father why on earth he would willingly compromise his constitutional rights? Should he be allowed to say only certain things? Worship in certain churches? Be free from some unreasonable searches/seizures?
It's pretty much a false dilemma anyway. A trained shooter with 3 20 round magazines can probably fire and reload twice in only a slightly longer amount of time than the same shooter could fire 50 rounds from a single magazine. So what difference does it really make?

[KevDen2005]

So your old man's view of high capacity magazines are more than 50 rounds? Jesus, what is shooting?

[Ronin13]

So your old man's view of high capacity magazines are more than 50 rounds? Jesus, what is shooting?

That was thrown in as a definition for the argument, actually he accurately called it "50-round drum magazines"... He's not an avid firearms fan, he supports 2A but he knows nothing outside of the M4 carries 30-round magazines when used by our troops. He knows military, but he's not familiar with hi-cap mags (and I had to warn him that my glock carries what used to be illegal hi-cap mags- 15rounds). [Beer] I'm learnin' the old guy, but he can be stubborn.

[KevDen2005]

I would say that if he is okay with 49 round magazine limits than I'm okay with that. But that is such a slippery slope. Why would we want to make any cut off, really? By allowing precedence for 49 round capacity magazines than soon it will be 39, than 29, and so on. Give no ground. Also, someone pointed out earlier, bringing ammo to your fight without multiple magazines is important. But ask your dad, what his thought process is on limiting the amount of ammo per magazine. Does he think this will deter crime, and why? What is a valid explanation of this. Some lib may argue this with no real reason as to why this would somehow deter crime and violence. Face it, the majority of the time a gun is fired in self-defense or crime, it is much less than 10 rounds so what is the potential accomplishment of taking higher capacity mags off the street? Nothing. That means that someone who wants to do harm will either break the law (which is not uncommon for criminals to do) and have larger capacity magazines, or have to change magazines multiple times.

This is your right and these type of limitations are invalid reasons to stop or deter crime.

[Rucker61]

Face it, the majority of the time a gun is fired in self-defense or crime, it is much less than 10 rounds so what is the potential accomplishment of taking higher capacity mags off the street? Nothing.

Reagan assassination attempt - six round .22LR revolver
Gerald Ford aassassination attempt - 7 round .45 ACP
Robert Kennedy assassination: 8 round .22LR revolver
JFK assassination: 6 round internal magazine rifle.

[Mtn.man]

Besides the fun of shooting with one, I agree ZOMBIES you can never tell if there are alot breaking in or not so don't go un-ammoed.

[Chad4000]

The most important thing to point out to him regarding magazine capacity is this.

Suggest to him we make murder illegal, when he blinks say, see dad that how stupid the mag debate is.

fugging awesome lol... [Beer]

[Adawg38]

I wanted to chime in here but so many people already posted so many good points.

+1 [Weight]

[CO Hugh]

The argument is that it is just one more step toward tyranny and magazine restrictions, regulations are pushed by ivy league idiots who want to control everyone's lives, as Mussolini stated "everything the state, nothing beyond the state"

If it were about saving lives for instance tobacco would be banned. But our government at all levels is dependent on the tax revenue so no tobacco prohibition.

The statists will start with 50 rounders, then it will be something else, "sniper rifles" by feinstein, "Saturday night specials" and so on, because people don't need them for whatever activity our dear rulers (who couldn't shoot a gun without help, and protected by armed guards) decree, and then you won't even be left with a 22lr.

The thought occurred to me that if God endowed us with free will to run our own lives, what man should endeavor to dictate free men, when God decided against it.

Frankly I think the NFA should be repealed allowing full autos: it would be the greatest economic stimulus ever. Furthermore, if i want to buy high capacity magazines to use as an out house, that is no one's business. Don't give any more power to the government.

[TFOGGER]

Limiting the number of rounds a magazine holds to reduce fatalities is exactly the same reasoning that says limiting the size of a fuel tank on a car would make it safer. A car with even 1 gallon of gas in the tank can still be driven through a crowded shopping mall.

[sniper7]

tell him because you can. this is america and we don't limit ourselves in pretty much every category and every interest.

[Great-Kazoo]

Reagan assassination attempt - six round .22LR revolver
Gerald Ford aassassination attempt - 7 round .45 ACP
Robert Kennedy assassination: 8 round .22LR revolver
JFK assassination: 6 round internal magazine rifle.


Aug 1 , 1966 16 Killed 32 injured.
Texas tower Charles Whitman. 6mm remington Bolt action. M1 Carbine .357 revolver. pump action 35cal , semi auto shotgun. Not one of the guns used has a magazine, tube or cylinder capacity of more than 15rds (M1 carbine)
Yet he did a good amount of damage before being taken down, by a LE with a ...............Revolver.

[bogie]

This is America, home of the Whopper and the Big Mac. Besides, It's not the size that counts, it's how you use it...

[theGinsue]

Very interesting thread.

I got into a similar discussion today with coworkers and hadn't seen this thread yet.

I used many of the arguments that have been expressed here.

One of my coworkers, the guy who claims to be a conservative but has views like "I think we should have to pay a higher percentage in taxes since things cost more" responded like this:
Yes, cars should have governors on them to limit their speed.
No one (outside of the .gov) should be allowed to own semi-auto firearms because they don't serve a practical purpose.
There is no such thing as a semi-auto shotgun
The Constitution doesn't say you can have 'those types of guns'
"Common Sense gun laws" would make us safer
Oh, it's fine for people to put 20" spinner rims on their cars just because they want them, but....
.
.
.

I finally just turned away muttering something about how the blind deserve what they get. What's really depressing is that the other 2 people in the room basically agreed with everything he said; and all 3 of them are retired military as I am.

Remember, you CAN'T FIX STUPID no matter how hard you try.

[ChunkyMonkey]

^ wait, despite the high paying mod position here, you still work somewhere else?? [Tooth]

[theGinsue]

It's because of all of those unwed mothers that I gave a start to in college. <joke, only 2 kids from me -that I know of & both from my wife>

ETA: A brutha's gotta eat.

[Great-Kazoo]

Remember, you CAN'T FIX STUPID no matter how hard you try.


More like.
You can lead a person to Knowledge
BUT you can't make them THINK.

One of my coworkers years ago AND his client while on the subject of stopping a threat, could not understand why i would not try and shoot them in the knee, to stop them.
Good thing i was going on a break.

[SA Friday]

Because it doesn't matter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hgdq1FBYTUE

[KevDen2005]

Reagan assassination attempt - six round .22LR revolver
Gerald Ford aassassination attempt - 7 round .45 ACP
Robert Kennedy assassination: 8 round .22LR revolver
JFK assassination: 6 round internal magazine rifle.

I have been told, however I have never looked it up, that the average LEO gunfight is 3 shots

[KevDen2005]

^ wait, despite the high paying mod position here, you still work somewhere else?? [Tooth]

LOL! Good one! [ROFL1]