Satan worship/following, what is this belief all about

[jim02]

This is intended to be a civil discussion, no name calling please. I would like people not to sidetrack this with deliberate comments about why they dislike religion or for people to demean other’s beliefs.
If you can’t do these things please don’t comment.

I want to understand the satan worship belief. If anyone here does or has some personal experience with people who do, please chime in.

What do people that worship satan believes in, what are their core values? Generalized example Christians have the 10 commandments and basically should be trying to be a good person and help others.

Do satan followers acknowledge the belief from some other religions that satan is a fallen angel exiled by God or do they have a different belief of where satan came from?

Most people associate satan with evil; the worse acts of humanity are commonly referred to as being directed by satan. Do people that worship satan embrace these ideals of following the creator of all things evil or do they see things differently?

Are their different followings of satan worship, like different belief systems that are only connected by satan but have different beliefs about who satan is and what he stands for?

Personal experience and reading some post in wiki or a book is not the same. If you want to have this conversation in private please PM me.

[Zundfolge]

Your best bet is to PM Bellavite (http://www.ar-15.co/forums/member.php?u=2390) and ask him ... otherwise I don't see this thread going well.

[jplove71]

Your best bet is to PM Bellavite (http://www.ar-15.co/forums/member.php?u=2390) and ask him ... otherwise I don't see this thread going well.

This.

[jim02]

I did not want to intrude on him and put him in a position that he might feel hes obligated to answer my PM or have a discussion with a person he does not know.
This way anyone is free to join in if they want to or not.

[HBARleatherneck]

delete

[kanekutter05]

So, to sum it up God created satan. God created evil.

First part yes. 2nd part is highly incorrect.

[bellavite1]

I did not want to intrude on him and put him in a position that he might feel hes obligated to answer my PM or have a discussion with a person he does not know.
This way anyone is free to join in if they want to or not.
I am good either way...
Actually I am not the best person to answer your question, since Satanists like myself DO NOT worship Satan (or anything else for that matter).
Satanism is a religion of the self, a form of Atheism.
We do not believe in a Creator, therefore we do not believe in its opposite.
We believe that we only have one life to live and therefore, as long as you don't hurt anybody else in the process, not living it fully is the biggest of all sins.
We believe that children and animals, lacking the loss of innocence we all go through growing up, are the purest and sacrest of all beings.
We believe in meritocracy, intended as nobody is "entitled" to anything and your life is basically what YOU make it.
We believe in a form of Karma: good things come to good people, bad things to bad ones.
We believe that ALL major religions have sistematically tried to eliminate everything that does not conform to their creed, by labeling it as the work of Satan (hence the name).
We do not believe in proselitizing :this is as far as I will go, if your beliefs are right for you, it's not my place to try and change them.
We consider ourselves free from dogmas as our "religion" is more of a system of beliefs than a set of rules.
My advice is for you to read the Satanioc Bible, by LaVey:
http://www.amazon.com/Satanic-Bible-Anton-Szandor-Lavey/dp/0380015390 .
To quote the author "it will not make you something you are not already" and makes for interesting reading, if only out of curiosity.
Me, it simply gave a name to what I believed ever since a was a kid, and I recognized myself in it.
I hope it helps, feel free to PM me.

And thanks for being open minded.[Beer]

[flan7211]

First part yes. 2nd part is highly incorrect.

Ok before we start this flame thrower session. I'm a calvinist and I agree God is the author of evil. He says it many times. God isn't however the author of sin. We are doomed to that ourselves.

[T-Giv]

^ Second that.

[jake]

I'm by no means an expert but I think a lot/most Satanists don't believe in Satan in the same way that a Christian would believe in God, but I can't remember the rest of it because I was distractedly waiting for the goat to be sacrificed so we could start the orgy.

Edit: what bellavite said.

[HBARleatherneck]

delete

[tmckay2]

Ok before we start this flame thrower session. I'm a calvinist and I agree God is the author of evil. He says it many times. God isn't however the author of sin. We are doomed to that ourselves.

Bingo.

[jim02]

Actually I am not the best person to answer your question, since Satanists like myself DO NOT worship Satan (or anything else for that matter).
Satanism is a religion of the self, a form of Atheism.


Well this just blows away the common idea of what most people think and exactly why I asked.

I will check out that book, i'm not looking for a belief system, I am just on a search to better understand my fellow man.

I wonder if anyone else has any other belief structures around satan worship.

[kanekutter05]

Ok before we start this flame thrower session. I'm a calvinist and I agree God is the author of evil. He says it many times. God isn't however the author of sin. We are doomed to that ourselves.


did you not read the verse from the bible? it says so. or do you think the bible is incorrect.

The hebrew word used in this verse is "rah" which can translate to many different words in english including "calamity"...which is used in the NASB translation:

The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these

If you look at this verse in context, it's not referring to evil as in moral evil...but the natural calamaty/distress we experience as humans.

There are also many verses in the Bible that describe the nature of God. One specific one:

Your eyes are too pure to approve evil, and You can not look on wickedness with favor...(Habakkuk 1:13)

This is a huge topic that you could spend months diving into...but what it boils down to is that the nature of God is pure in every sense of the word. Therefore, He could not have created evil. Evil is a byproduct of the freewill God created all beings with.

I wasn't trying to flame anyone...the statement that God created evil is fundamentally flawed in accordance to what is taught in the Bible is all.

[Whistler]

Few of the Pagan religions embraced the concept of absolute good or evil. That concept (Satan) originated with Christianity for the most part. The "Horned God" often associated with Pagan religions was unrelated and the association was formed after the inception of the concept of Satan.

[HBARleatherneck]

delete

[kanekutter05]

The word “disaster” inserted by the New International Version is misleading and purposely ambiguous so that the uninformed reader could conclude that this word refers to natural disasters, such as typhoons, earthquakes and hurricanes. This dubious translation was deliberately forged to conceal the prophet’s original message. As mentioned above, the King James Version correctly translates this verse, and renders the Hebrew word רָע (rah) as “evil.”

How can you possibly prove that? That appears to be a personal bias towards the KJV being the only correct English translation. A quick google search and a quick chat with most spiritual scholars will show that there are issues with the KJV as well.




If you believe God has been around forever, and was the first being, who has no beginning or end. If you believe God created all things, Where do you think EVIL came from? Satan didnt invent it, it had to start somewhere. If you think Satan just sinned, then you must believe God is capable of making a mistake.

As I said in the previous post...evil is a byproduct of our freewill that God created all beings with. God gives all the freewill to love him or despise him...because if He only created us to love Him then He would just be an igotistical tyrrant. In Satan's own freewill, he chose to rebel against God.

[HBARleatherneck]

delete

[kanekutter05]

well since Christianity was suppose to be an extension of Judaism.(which it is not). The Old Testament were Jewish scriptures. They have been studied and studied, and studied. There has been countless Rabbis and teachers who have studies and made commentaries on the Scriptures. So, when the writers of the New American, and NIV translated it differently, than the JEWS who wrote it would have. Then it shows they obviously mistranslated it for a reason. It is problematic for some Christians to believe God is all powerful enough to create evil and good.

Even the King James Bible translates it correctly.

Just for your review...research the New American Standard Version. The purpose of that version was to be the most literal translation of the Bible from it's original manuscripts. I am not advocating that the NASB is the be-all end-all translation (as you are campaining for the KJV)...but for academic study of scripture the NASB is the most literal translation.

The reason it's problematic is because God creating evil goes against the very nature of God.

[HBARleatherneck]

delete

[flan7211]

The reason it's problematic is because God creating evil goes against the very nature of God.[/quote]



How so?

[Zundfolge]

The reason it's problematic is because God creating evil goes against the very nature of God.No, God BEING evil would go against his very nature.

God didn't create darkness, he created light ... the absence of light is darkness. Therefore when he created light, he created darkness as well (this works whether you're talking about energy waves/particles or good vs evil).


We're running into the limitations of language and human perception, not limitations of God.


As for Satanism, the term can mean a lot of things to a lot of different people "Classic LaVeyan Satanism" isn't actually worship of Satan. In the most grossly over simplified terms possible, its simple hedonism mixed with some rituals for the fun of it.



I do find it funny that a thread on Satanism quickly turns into a Christian theological debate.

[Great-Kazoo]

Well this just blows away the common idea of what most people think and exactly why I asked.

I will check out that book, i'm not looking for a belief system, I am just on a search to better understand my fellow man.

I wonder if anyone else has any other belief structures around satan worship.


I do not worship Satan. The ideas i copied from bellavite are some of my beliefs being involved with traditional Lakota spirituality. Notice i said SPIRITUALLY. I don't believe or support the "organized" religions. However i also do not condemn anyone for their beliefs. That is what i like about the path i am on, it's non-sectarian and non judgmental.
Here is some of what i believe as copied from B's post.


We believe that we only have one life to live and therefore, as long as you don't hurt anybody else in the process, not living it fully is the biggest of all sins.
We believe that children and animals, lacking the loss of innocence we all go through growing up, are the purest and sacrest of all beings.
We believe in meritocracy, intended as nobody is "entitled" to anything and your life is basically what YOU make it.
We believe in a form of Karma: good things come to good people, bad things to bad ones.
We believe that ALL major religions have systematically tried to eliminate everything that does not conform to their creed, by labeling it as the work of Satan (hence the name).
We do not believe in proselytizing :this is as far as I will go, if your beliefs are right for you, it's not my place to try and change them.
We consider ourselves free from dogmas as our "religion" is more of a system of beliefs than a set of rules.


If you can find it , this book by Peter Ustinov is a satirical look about the relationship between God and The Devil. While humorous and well written for what it is. The book does make you think. it tells the story from a point that God decided one day to "push" Satan/ The Devil out of heaven and how they get together every so often to see what has become of mankind. No Its Not a Primer of any Religion, just something to ponder.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Old-Man-Mr-Smith/dp/0745141072/ref=la_B001H9U1T8_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1343426982&sr=1-2

[kanekutter05]

no, it goes against the very nature of the Christian interpretation of the Jewish God. It is well inline with what the Bible says, and what Jews believed for thousands of years before Christianity was invented.

Again...read Habakkuk 1:13. I haven't even referenced a single New Testament verse nor topic which is where the "Christian interpretation" of the Jewish God was formed.

Let's talk about an example. Clearly from the Old Testament, God is a vengeful and destructive God. Just take the stories of Noah and Job as proof. Did evil things happen to these two and those around him? Yes. Would it be alright to say that evil is unjust in it's very nature? I would think so...

So God is vengeful and destructive and allowed things to happen to Noah and Job ("rah")...but God is JUST. Check out these OT verses:

Job 37:23, Psalm 9:8, Psalm 33:5, Psalm 35:28, Psalm 36:6, Psalm 71:2 ,Psalm 71:15-17, Psalm 71:19, Psalm 103:6, Psalm 119:142, Isaiah 5:16, Isaiah 28:16-17, Isaiah 42:5-7, Isaiah 51:4-6, Jeremiah 9:23-24

If evil is unjust, and God is just...then it's not possible for God to have created evil because it goes against the nature of the just God.

[Irving]

HBAR, I've always wondered how anyone could take seriously the King James Bible. I ask because I am under the impression that it was his interpretation/translation. Knowing thete is a significant difference between a translation, and an interpretation, can you expand on what the KJB actually is/was?

[HBARleatherneck]

delete

[kanekutter05]

God didn't create darkness, he created light ... the absence of light is darkness.

Correct...so darkness was the result of creating light and evil is the result of creating good. God created neither evil nor darkness...but they both exist.

[funkymonkey1111]

I am good either way...
Actually I am not the best person to answer your question, since Satanists like myself DO NOT worship Satan (or anything else for that matter).
Satanism is a religion of the self, a form of Atheism.
We do not believe in a Creator, therefore we do not believe in its opposite.
We believe that we only have one life to live and therefore, as long as you don't hurt anybody else in the process, not living it fully is the biggest of all sins.
We believe that children and animals, lacking the loss of innocence we all go through growing up, are the purest and sacrest of all beings.
We believe in meritocracy, intended as nobody is "entitled" to anything and your life is basically what YOU make it.
We believe in a form of Karma: good things come to good people, bad things to bad ones.
We believe that ALL major religions have sistematically tried to eliminate everything that does not conform to their creed, by labeling it as the work of Satan (hence the name).
We do not believe in proselitizing :this is as far as I will go, if your beliefs are right for you, it's not my place to try and change them.
We consider ourselves free from dogmas as our "religion" is more of a system of beliefs than a set of rules.
My advice is for you to read the Satanioc Bible, by LaVey:
http://www.amazon.com/Satanic-Bible-Anton-Szandor-Lavey/dp/0380015390 .
To quote the author "it will not make you something you are not already" and makes for interesting reading, if only out of curiosity.
Me, it simply gave a name to what I believed ever since a was a kid, and I recognized myself in it.
I hope it helps, feel free to PM me.

And thanks for being open minded.[Beer]

Then why not just call yourself an atheist? I realize this thread is not about you, nor do you owe anyone an explanation, but if you don't believe in Satan then is it merely a provocative title?

Frankly, this position doesn't seem to make any more sense than calling one's self a Christian but then not believing that Christ is your savior.

[Great-Kazoo]

Upon reading this thread i find it interesting the discourse [ok debating] of what is correct. Which bible is more truthful than the other etc.

[kanekutter05]

so, who created evil?

Satan?

Who created Satan?

God?


Are you saying God screwed up and screwed up bad enough to make Satan? Who according to Christians is the opposite of everything good.

You're not listening (or I guess reading)...God created Satan yes. But God created Satan with the freewill to love God or despise him. Satan chose to despise God because God created Satan with the freewill to make that choice.


I dont think God screwed up. Satan isnt evil. He is one of Gods many angels, who does Gods work, and nothing more. Christians invented the idea of Satan, being evil. So, people would be scared of Satan and hell and convert to their new religion.

If you believe Satan isn't evil and that he's a creation of the church to be used as a tool to scare up membership...then I think I will be bowing out of this discussion. I had assumed we were operating on the same playing field of beliefs, but if you believe that then we are not.

[bellavite1]

Check this out!
We are having an adult, informative discussion and nobody has insulted anyome else yet![Beer]

[Zundfolge]

Which bible is more truthful than the other etc.
When I was growing up, the church I attended (and my parents still attend) had a youth pastor who was a pretty serious scholar and theologian. He was fluent in Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic (haven't spoken to him in years but would love to ask him if he could watch Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ without subtitles :p ).

Whenever we ran into some question about a translation, he'd go back to the source texts and his opinion was that based on everything he'd read that most of the commonly used translations are in line with one another on the important issues of faith, but most are full of mistakes when it comes to little detail things (for example, most English translations of the bible quote Exodus 20:13 and Deuteronomy 5:17 as some variation of "You Shall Not Kill" when the Hebrew is actually "You Shall Not Murder" ... this alone has caused many Christian denominations to embrace stupid things like conscientious objection and pacifism ... Ironically this comes from a Mennonite-Brethren pastor and the official position of the MB church is that of conscientious objection).

I think if one wants to pick nits they'll find all the Translations lacking, but the simple fact is that Christianity is pretty simple and my interpretation of the Bible says that you don't need to get every detail 100% correct as long as you get the basics of salvation God is more interested in what's in your heart and not every little action you take (not going to go into that here though as I've contributed enough to the thread drift here).


Check this out!
We are having an adult, informative discussion and nobody has insulted anyome else yet![Beer]
Heathen! [Beer]

[kanekutter05]

Check this out!
We are having an adult, informative discussion and nobody has insulted anyome else yet![Beer]

It's amazing, if you didn't know any better you'd say that gun owners were rational, mature adults [Flower]

[Ah Pook]

This is intended to be a civil discussion, no name calling please. I would like people not to sidetrack this with deliberate comments about why they dislike religion or for people to demean other’s beliefs.

Best of luck with that. [Luck]

Interesting response, Bellavite1. So, Satanism is similar to Humanism?

[Irving]

Kanekutter, can God create the entire universe without also creating the rules in which it opperates?

[Great-Kazoo]

Kanekutter, can God create the entire universe without also creating the rules in which it opperates?


Depends on which version of a bible you read:)

[sniper7]

I'm curious how anyone that believes in God or Satan truly "KNOWS" that he/she/it is in fact real.

I like the belief that there is something out there greater than ourselves, something to look forward to after "this life", but what if there isn't?

No proof has been shown (to me at least) that there is any life after death, or that you will end up in a firey abyss or a cloudy vacation spot.

I also don't fall into any group that says I must believe whatever is written in a book, a book that has been changed, a book that is interpreted differently by different religions, a book that has caused the death of probably billions of people and continues to be the root of death for hundreds to thousands of people every day.

I grew up in the Baptist church, learned and recited the bible, went to Awannas, then sports took over. I am not bothered by anyone that is religious or atheist, I have close friends who are both. I honestly don't group myself with anyone and in fact have some of my own ideas about our beginnings and our ends.

[StagLefty]

One of the best civil discussions I've ever seen on here. Carry on [Beer]

[Irving]

I want to get into the discussion about believing something that was written in a book, but only have onternet from my phone. So in short, I believe in the Constitution, which is just ideas written onto paper. The important part is that I agree with the ideas presented in said document. Does it matter if it is "true" or not?

[wctriumph]

I am born again in Jesus Christ.

All things come from God and with God all things are possible.

Just me, you are free to believe as you wish, I will not try to convert anyone, simply testify if asked.

God Bless America.

TEA

[wctriumph]

Oh yeah, Chuck Norris and God are on a first name basis.

[ROFL2][ROFL3][ROFL1]

[jim02]

a book that has caused the death of probably billions of people and continues to be the root of death for hundreds to thousands of people every day.

Religious wars have caused far less deaths the non religious acts by man. Someone said this lie to make an argument against religions and it keeps on being used, but its just not true.
Matter of fact socialist, commie, fascist regimes have killled billions upon billions of people.

A book can no more cause a death than a firearm or a bullet, it's man who does that.

[The Heretic]

I am good either way...
Actually I am not the best person to answer your question, since Satanists like myself DO NOT worship Satan (or anything else for that matter).
Satanism is a religion of the self, a form of Atheism.
We do not believe in a Creator, therefore we do not believe in its opposite.
We believe that we only have one life to live and therefore, as long as you don't hurt anybody else in the process, not living it fully is the biggest of all sins.
We believe that children and animals, lacking the loss of innocence we all go through growing up, are the purest and sacrest of all beings.
We believe in meritocracy, intended as nobody is "entitled" to anything and your life is basically what YOU make it.
We believe in a form of Karma: good things come to good people, bad things to bad ones.
We believe that ALL major religions have sistematically tried to eliminate everything that does not conform to their creed, by labeling it as the work of Satan (hence the name).
We do not believe in proselitizing :this is as far as I will go, if your beliefs are right for you, it's not my place to try and change them.
We consider ourselves free from dogmas as our "religion" is more of a system of beliefs than a set of rules.
My advice is for you to read the Satanioc Bible, by LaVey:
http://www.amazon.com/Satanic-Bible-Anton-Szandor-Lavey/dp/0380015390 .
To quote the author "it will not make you something you are not already" and makes for interesting reading, if only out of curiosity.
Me, it simply gave a name to what I believed ever since a was a kid, and I recognized myself in it.
I hope it helps, feel free to PM me.

And thanks for being open minded.[Beer]

Hear Hear Bellavite! Very well summarized.
One simple phrase that has always stuck in the forefront of my mind is "Evil spelled backwards is Live!" Live your life like YOU want to. This doesn't mean run around like a maniac. You must show respect to all! This includes man, animal and mother earth. I believe this all has strong ties to Native American beliefs.

The cheesy line from Roadhouse always makes me think of the flip side though. " Be nice, until it's time not to be nice"

By the way, Im really diggin' the open mindedness and thirst for knowledge on this forum....after years of trolling it looks like I've found the right community![Beer]

[bellavite1]

Then why not just call yourself an atheist? I realize this thread is not about you, nor do you owe anyone an explanation, but if you don't believe in Satan then is it merely a provocative title?

Frankly, this position doesn't seem to make any more sense than calling one's self a Christian but then not believing that Christ is your savior.

I see your point, but truth is that I recognized myself so much in the Satanism beliefs that obviously this makes me a Satanist.
There are also other elements of esotherical nature, which I will not discuss here, that set it definetely apart from plain Atheism.
And yes, the core beliefs of Satanism are quite similar to Humanism (with the capital H).

[Clint45]

For a few years I studied what most of the worlds' religions had to say. Just as there are many denominations and sects of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and Buddhism, there is also much division amongst Pagans, Heathens, Wiccans, Animists, Atheists, and Satanists.

I've met a lot of people who self-identified as "Satanist", as well as some who rejected that label but were into something very similar. Half of them were decent enough folks who, like Bellavite, were something along the lines of an Atheist with a unique philosophy. The other half were bad people, typically following some sort religious practices they made up themselves. As far as I've seen there are no organized groups who claim to worship Satan . . . although many fundamentalist Christian sects are quick to make that accusation towards Wiccans and Unitarians.

Myself, I'm an Agnostic. A few things that my Buddhist friends believe seem valid, and a few things that my Native American friends believe seem valid, and a few other things I've learned over the years seem valid -- but I've never found any religion that I was in complete agreement with. I have, however, seen hundreds of cases of very "pious" and respected religious folk doing horrible things to people, using the fact that their victims had different beliefs as justification for that.

[jackthewall81]

This is what makes America beautiful, diversity, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and civility.

Myself being Agnostic.

[bellavite1]

...And this is where it goes downhill...[ROFL1]

[jackthewall81]

...And this is where it goes downhill...[ROFL1]

I will edit my post. No need for conflict.

[argonstrom]

...And this is where it goes downhill...[ROFL1]

Did you get your sign back, or has the detective assigned to your case updated you about the progress of the investigation?

[bellavite1]

Did you get your sign back, or has the detective assigned to your case updated you about the progress of the investigation?

Nope
But I got me a new one and a trail cam...

[argonstrom]

Nope
But I got me a new one and a trail cam...

Right on.

[hatidua]

I am good either way...
Actually I am not the best person to answer your question, since Satanists like myself DO NOT worship Satan (or anything else for that matter).
Satanism is a religion of the self, a form of Atheism.
We do not believe in a Creator, therefore we do not believe in its opposite.
We believe that we only have one life to live and therefore, as long as you don't hurt anybody else in the process, not living it fully is the biggest of all sins.
We believe that children and animals, lacking the loss of innocence we all go through growing up, are the purest and sacrest of all beings.
We believe in meritocracy, intended as nobody is "entitled" to anything and your life is basically what YOU make it.
We believe in a form of Karma: good things come to good people, bad things to bad ones.
We believe that ALL major religions have sistematically tried to eliminate everything that does not conform to their creed, by labeling it as the work of Satan (hence the name).
We do not believe in proselitizing :this is as far as I will go, if your beliefs are right for you, it's not my place to try and change them.
We consider ourselves free from dogmas as our "religion" is more of a system of beliefs than a set of rules.
My advice is for you to read the Satanioc Bible, by LaVey:
http://www.amazon.com/Satanic-Bible-Anton-Szandor-Lavey/dp/0380015390 .
To quote the author "it will not make you something you are not already" and makes for interesting reading, if only out of curiosity.
Me, it simply gave a name to what I believed ever since a was a kid, and I recognized myself in it.
I hope it helps, feel free to PM me.

And thanks for being open minded.[Beer]

More than I knew before. Nothing in there I disagree with. :)

[Byte Stryke]

I wont cite scripture because I don't remember it all.
I have always held that in the creation of all things there must be balance
Day and Night, Hot and Cold, life and death, and of course, good and evil.

The Lord Created the heavens and the earth... surely he created good and evil. if only as a balance.

[Nix]

I've looked at a lot of the worlds religions and have never found one that I can completely agree with and thus can't truly call myself any denomination. One thing i can say is that (from what I recall - apologies if I am remembering incorrectly, it's been a couple of decades) Wicca, Satanism, Cherokee and even Buddhism share some commonalities.

For example they each say (paraphrasing)

do whatever makes you happy, so long as you do not hurt anyone else in the process.

respect all life (human as well as animal)

There is no 'God' or 'Satan', no heaven and no hell.

They are not truly religions per se (in my opinion), more a list of beliefs and ideas. No real structure except for what you want to take away from it - and no threat of punishment if you don't (fill in the blank), like wise, no offer of reward if you (fill in the blank) short of a happy and fulfilled life.

If you really want a good idea about Satanism, check out the Satanic Bible by Anton Lavey (I think Bellavite mentioned it as well).

[Byte Stryke]

all different views of the same lake.

[spyder]

did you not read the verse from the bible? it says so. or do you think the bible is incorrect.

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Isaiah-45-7/


I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
I decided to go look in the bibles we have (six total), and none of them have the same wording.... None have exactly what you have above either. However all of them say basically that he created the good, and the bad, but none said evil. If I slap you, that's bad, if I kill you, that's evil. I think there's the difference for the other sides arguement.

Upon reading this thread i find it interesting the discourse [ok debating] of what is correct. Which bible is more truthful than the other etc.
Like I said, we have six here, and all are different. Then, there is how you take the wording they use and apply it to todays views. Depending on who you are, and how you take things, you can get some very different concepts from each of the books. This is one of my biggest problems with the "bible", which one is correct, and how do you prove it? Of course, each side has their own facts about why theirs is correct, it is just something that always bothered me.

I'm curious how anyone that believes in God or Satan truly "KNOWS" that he/she/it is in fact real....

This is where the best arguement I have heard to date is, how do you know love is real? How do you know you love your kid/spouse? You can't see it, you can't touch it, so how do you know it is real? You can feel it emotionally, and that is the best arguement I have heard for how people can believe in god, they can feel him in their hearts or something like that.

[Storm]

I took a Philosophy of Religion class in college in which we studied discussed a number of different things. The operative definition we used for evil in discussion was that, "Evil is the unnecessary suffering of another being".

A few other things we discussed were:
The ontological proof the the existence of God.
The cosmological proof the the existence of God.
The teleological proof the the existence of God.
God being the Judeo-Christian God.

Amongst others, the Judeo-Christian God is seen as having three attributes: Omniscient (all knowing), Omnibenevolent (wholly good), and Omnipotent (all powerful).

Of the discussions we had, one of the most interesting was "The Problem Of Evil". Which is, if God is wholly good and all powerful, then why does evil exist.


Note: I'm not trying to push a religious agenda here (I'm an agnostic/atheist), I think reading and understanding this stuff is enlightening and fascinating.

[Dr_Fwd]

I am so freaking proud of all of you! Having 5 pages in religion discussion thread without calling each other names!
I LOVE THE MEMBERS OF THIS SITE! [Beer][Beer]

[sniper7]

I am so freaking proud of all of you! Having 5 pages in religion discussion thread without calling each other names!
I LOVE THE MEMBERS OF THIS SITE! [Beer][Beer]

Its only 2 pages if you change your view settings! I guess I just like to see things different![ROFL2]

[rocktot]

Well, then let me help out. There is no meat on the bone here, lots of fluffy talk. The pentagram was used alot in Europe as Christianity took over, but I would say there are differing types of Satanists also. There is a dark side to that religion, and you all are glossing over it, which is fine by me. There is also a dark side to human behavior which we also gloss over. Fine by me.
This is just a tidbit on the pentagram:
This goes back to the earliest subjugation of Christianity in Europe:
No meat here.

http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/pentagram/farm_family.jpg

[rocktot]

Another interesting pentagram tidbit (Not Satanist per se)- I mean, check it out! :
http://www.zoence.com/useruploads/image/Maps/600_grai_kingdom_pentagram.jpg

[Great-Kazoo]

Well, then let me help out. There is no meat on the bone here, lots of fluffy talk. The pentagram was used alot in Europe as Christianity took over, but I would say there are differing types of Satanists also. There is a dark side to that religion, and you all are glossing over it, which is fine by me. There is also a dark side to human behavior which we also gloss over. Fine by me.
This is just a tidbit on the pentagram:
This goes back to the earliest subjugation of Christianity in Europe:
No meat here.

http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/pentagram/farm_family.jpg


And there is no darkside of Christianity, or any religious belief ?

[Whistler]

I missed where the pentagram came into the conversation however the use of that symbol predates Christianity by thousands of years. The same is true of the Swastika and many other "symbols", the idea of those symbols as representations of evil is a fairly recent invention.

[rocktot]

Right, but its tied into 'Satanism', as well as other aspects, which are tied in together. Its also tied into the power structure of Western European countries, etc. The pentagram is heavily used. All this stuff is actually known by higher ups in the Catholic church for example. Anyway, good discussion, but its not for public websites.

[sniper7]

Religious wars have caused far less deaths the non religious acts by man. Someone said this lie to make an argument against religions and it keeps on being used, but its just not true.
Matter of fact socialist, commie, fascist regimes have killled billions upon billions of people.

A book can no more cause a death than a firearm or a bullet, it's man who does that.

What about the crusades, the French wars of religion, the muslim conquests, reconquista?
palestine and israel
pakistan and india
ethiopia and somalia
the nigerian conflict
buddhist uprising

The Thirty Years way Killed an estimated 11,000,000 people which was over 2% of the worlds population at the time
The French Wars of Religion killed an estimated 4,000,000 which was about 1% of the worlds population

Today the terms may have changed, but I would almost go as far to as to say 9/11 was a religious attack. Now we are killing thousands in the middle east although they are defined as terrorists instead of it being a religious was.
The killing of almost 6,000,000 Jews during the holocaust supposedly has mixed reasons such as hitler believed the Jews were aligned with the Bolshevik revolution in Russia making them communists, he blamed them for the loss in WWI, he did not like their beliefs.

I agree that other factors are responsible for more deaths, but the numbers definitely don't lie.

As to your comparing a book to a gun there is a great difference. The book is a guide how to live your life, how to raise your children, how to treat your wife, how to treat your neighbor, etc etc. The gun or bullet does not give you a guide for your life it is simply a tool that can be used for good or evil.

[sniper7]

This is where the best arguement I have heard to date is, how do you know love is real? How do you know you love your kid/spouse? You can't see it, you can't touch it, so how do you know it is real? You can feel it emotionally, and that is the best arguement I have heard for how people can believe in god, they can feel him in their hearts or something like that.

I will argue this one. If you have a feeling of love or care for something or someone other than God, you can feel and touch that person or you have a real memory of them (dead pet or grandparent for example). You see and touch and feel your wife and kids almost every day. Love is the emotional part but there is a physical object to that love.

You can love your church or your bible (insert other worshiping place or book here) because it is physical, but to say that you love Jesus or Allah or anything else is where I get lost. I have yet to meet someone who has met any of those people, have seen them (other than an interpreted picture).

I can see the point where people will believe in something soo much that they feel they can see it, but then I ask where the line is drawn? The taliban believes they should kill the western civilization and follow their faith to do so and even kill themselves in the name of their "leader".
My previous post showed the religious wars (some of the more major ones), where millions were killed off because their beliefs were contradictory to others beliefs.

I am still searching for my "group" I guess I will say, I may or may not ever find it. I admire the people who have found their group to believe with, but I have many questions still and I am curious to see the responses. I'm glad this thread came up so we can "talk" about it, as I have found it extremely hard to have a discussion with anyone without there being some bad words or emotions come out.

[Whistler]

Right, but its tied into 'Satanism', as well as other aspects, which are tied in together. Its also tied into the power structure of Western European countries, etc. The pentagram is heavily used. All this stuff is actually known by higher ups in the Catholic church for example. Anyway, good discussion, but its not for public websites.

This country also via the Free Masons. I don't think the pentagram was generally associated with Satanism or the Occult until the 19th century.

I'm afraid I don't understand the last bit about public websites, if someone objects to the discussion they are free not to participate.

[spyder]

I am still searching for my "group" I guess I will say, I may or may not ever find it. I admire the people who have found their group to believe with, but I have many questions still and I am curious to see the responses. I'm glad this thread came up so we can "talk" about it, as I have found it extremely hard to have a discussion with anyone without there being some bad words or emotions come out.
I'm not religious in any way, I might be called spiritual by a few though.... Anyway, I loved the quote from Flight of the Phoenix, "Spirituality is not religion. Religion divides people. Belief in something, unites them."

[bellavite1]

What about the crusades, the French wars of religion, the muslim conquests, reconquista?
palestine and israel
pakistan and india
ethiopia and somalia
the nigerian conflict
buddhist uprising

The Thirty Years way Killed an estimated 11,000,000 people which was over 2% of the worlds population at the time
The French Wars of Religion killed an estimated 4,000,000 which was about 1% of the worlds population

Today the terms may have changed, but I would almost go as far to as to say 9/11 was a religious attack. Now we are killing thousands in the middle east although they are defined as terrorists instead of it being a religious was.
The killing of almost 6,000,000 Jews during the holocaust supposedly has mixed reasons such as hitler believed the Jews were aligned with the Bolshevik revolution in Russia making them communists, he blamed them for the loss in WWI, he did not like their beliefs.

I agree that other factors are responsible for more deaths, but the numbers definitely don't lie.

As to your comparing a book to a gun there is a great difference. The book is a guide how to live your life, how to raise your children, how to treat your wife, how to treat your neighbor, etc etc. The gun or bullet does not give you a guide for your life it is simply a tool that can be used for good or evil.

I must dissent:
All of these wars (and all wars as far as I am concerned) are not about religion.
They are about money and power.
Religion is the reason that the rulers offer to the masses in order to fire them up.
People will not fight to make their rulers richer (if they can avoid it), but touch their God and they are willing to die.

[sniper7]

I must dissent:
All of these wars (and all wars as far as I am concerned) are not about religion.
They are about money and power.
Religion is the reason that the rulers offer to the masses in order to fire them up.
People will not fight to make their rulers richer (if they can avoid it), but touch their God and they are willing to die.

Is religion as well not about money and power to a degree? What would the catholic church be without money? Where would they be if the followers of that religion had not fought the holy wars so their ruler(s) would have the power and money to run a country, to allow those same people to keep their religion and build churches and teach others the way of their religion while forcing the losers of the war to join the religion?

On a smaller scale what about the local churches and places of worship? How many people would follow their religions if they had no place to join others who felt the same way? How would they hear the word of their God through the preacher if there was no money to provide for him and his family, for the church to pay the bills, to provide books and activities for the children?

My point is that religions are about money and power and the wars that were fought for money and power were also about religion. The freedom to express themselves and share their religion, to expand the religion and teach those who they conquered the religion.

[TFOGGER]

People do not start wars, governments start wars.

[hatidua]

People do not start wars, governments start wars.

A handful of non-government guys flying airplanes into several tall NYC buildings sure stirred up a mess.

[Clint45]

A handful of non-government guys flying airplanes into several tall NYC buildings sure stirred up a mess.

It was very convenient how ready the government was to spring the Patriot Act, Homeland Security, and TSA on us immediately after it happened.

[Whistler]

But don't you feel safer? [Bang]

[Great-Kazoo]

It was very convenient how ready the government was to spring the Patriot Act, Homeland Security, and TSA on us immediately after it happened.


You not another truther are you?

[Clint45]

You not another truther are you?

Nope . . . those guys are nuts. I'm just pissed off that we suddenly lost the right to privacy and the right to travel unmolested in order to "fight terrorism" . . . and it has been 10 years and it still does not look like we'll be getting those rights back anytime soon.

[rocktot]

This country also via the Free Masons. I don't think the pentagram was generally associated with Satanism or the Occult until the 19th century.

I'm afraid I don't understand the last bit about public websites, if someone objects to the discussion they are free not to participate.

Do you mean this country is free via the Masons? I think the pentagram goes back way further than that. It was associated with the old nature religions, so it was 'anti-Christian' by nature. Thats why in France they went with Mary as head of the churches, to ease in from the pagan-female worship religions. This goes back to the Greeks by the way, 4000+ years ago, the struggle is still the same, pagan/nature vs sky-god/agricultural/domestic.
Satanism was around in ancient Greece also. He was called Pan, etc...(God what horrible edits on this, not Bernini!)
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Mythology/Images/PanDaphnisAltempsInv8571.jpg
- The power structure uses forms of "anti-Christianity" to induct their members, that has been going on since Christianity came to be a political force. Basicly religion has been about controlling power, after the fall of the Roman Empire. It replaced the emperor system with Kings and Religion. Christianity was guarded because it wanted to maintain the power structure to itself of course, just like major pharmaceutical companies want to ban herbals and vitamins.

Problem with the Crusades? The Crusades was about power and money. They did raid Solomon's temple, there are some obscure Jewish connections here, but it was about the gold. Then they made it a tourist destination, and made more money, until the King of France pulled the trigga on em. Going against Muslims? Yawn. yea, which side are ya on there bud?

Christianity provides social stability and masculine power structure. Satanism/ etc is more of a nature religion in its pure form, but it has a real dark element to it also, people seeking power etc. It is also used in various forms in the power fraternities to separate from the subservient but dominant Christian masses, that's been going on for a long time, since the middle ages.

Nature religions vs Sky god post agricultural religions is not the way to look at this though. Nature religions are still pagan in nature and as in Rome, no-one believes in them after a certain amount of material wealth is gained anyways. etc... I mean, we do have human sacrifice, the death penalty, for certain criminals, not for babies or virgins.

[rocktot]

Nope . . . those guys are nuts. I'm just pissed off that we suddenly lost the right to privacy and the right to travel unmolested in order to "fight terrorism" . . . and it has been 10 years and it still does not look like we'll be getting those rights back anytime soon.

Yea, they want all those truthers on the list, so tell the truth.

[rocktot]

What about the crusades, the French wars of religion, the muslim conquests, reconquista?
palestine and israel
pakistan and india
ethiopia and somalia
the nigerian conflict
buddhist uprising

The Thirty Years way Killed an estimated 11,000,000 people which was over 2% of the worlds population at the time
The French Wars of Religion killed an estimated 4,000,000 which was about 1% of the worlds population

Today the terms may have changed, but I would almost go as far to as to say 9/11 was a religious attack. Now we are killing thousands in the middle east although they are defined as terrorists instead of it being a religious was.
The killing of almost 6,000,000 Jews during the holocaust supposedly has mixed reasons such as hitler believed the Jews were aligned with the Bolshevik revolution in Russia making them communists, he blamed them for the loss in WWI, he did not like their beliefs.

I agree that other factors are responsible for more deaths, but the numbers definitely don't lie.

As to your comparing a book to a gun there is a great difference. The book is a guide how to live your life, how to raise your children, how to treat your wife, how to treat your neighbor, etc etc. The gun or bullet does not give you a guide for your life it is simply a tool that can be used for good or evil.

Ever hear 'Sympathy for the Devil' by the Stones? Jagger and thems rockers really got into Satanism back there in the 60's.

http://www.traditioninaction.org/Cultural/D003cpKnighthood.htm

http://www.illuminati-news.com/satanic_roots.htm

[Irving]

Sniper7, you believe in freedom right? What about truth, justice, etc. What tangible ways have you experienced any of those concepts?

[sneakerd]

Soooo Clint- just what rights did we lose? List them. Or are you just beefing about the TSA? Get over it.

[Great-Kazoo]

Ever hear 'Sympathy for the Devil' by the Stones? Jagger and thems rockers really got into Satanism back there in the 60's.

http://www.traditioninaction.org/Cultural/D003cpKnighthood.htm

http://www.illuminati-news.com/satanic_roots.htm


What???? The only thing the stones were in to were groupies, heroin and the occasional issues hiring security for their concerts.

http://www.illuminati-news.com/satanic_roots.htm
And Marilyn Manson was the reason Klebold & Harris shot up columbine. Focus dude, focus.

[Whistler]

Do you mean this country is free via the Masons? I think the pentagram goes back way further than that. It was associated with the old nature religions, so it was 'anti-Christian' by nature.

Thats why in France they went with Mary as head of the churches, to ease in from the pagan-female worship religions. This goes back to the Greeks by the way, 4000+ years ago, the struggle is still the same, pagan/nature vs sky-god/agricultural/domestic.

Satanism was around in ancient Greece also. He was called Pan, etc..

No I mean the pentagram was a sacred symbol to the Freemasons in which many of our Founding Fathers held membership. One theory holds the streets of Washington D.C. beginning from the White House intersect with various landmarks to form a pentagram by design or connecting the outer points of a pentagram form a familiar shape - the pentagon, etc. Wild pentagram theories abound and I believe I said "the use of that symbol [pentagram] predates Christianity by thousands of years". There are indications in was in use in ancient Mesopotamia as early as 3500BC.

The "old nature religions" or Paganism existed before the recorded concept of Christianity and if anything the inverse would be more accurate. If you consider Judaism the recored history indicates Christianity to have originated about 2000-2200BC but did not become a dominant religion until well into the 4th century and in its current form is thought to have originated about 50AD.

The Greek God Pan had nothing to do with Satanism and was the God of nature, hunting and shepherds and such.

I'm not able to formulate a reasonable response to the rest of that and now return this thread to regularly scheduled programming.

[two shoes]

Well, then let me help out. There is no meat on the bone here, lots of fluffy talk. The pentagram was used alot in Europe as Christianity took over, but I would say there are differing types of Satanists also. There is a dark side to that religion, and you all are glossing over it, which is fine by me. There is also a dark side to human behavior which we also gloss over. Fine by me.
This is just a tidbit on the pentagram:
This goes back to the earliest subjugation of Christianity in Europe:
No meat here.

http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/pentagram/farm_family.jpg

Uh, there is a bit of difference between the pentacle pictured and a pentagram... Pentacle is used typically by Pagens, Wiccans... Pentagram is more associated with Satanism.... Depending on whom you ask, they are not interchangable...

FWIW... I don't care what your beliefs are... It comes down to:
1. Are you a man of your word?
2. Can you be trusted?

I would expect the same questions asked of me...

[sniper7]

Ever hear 'Sympathy for the Devil' by the Stones? Jagger and thems rockers really got into Satanism back there in the 60's.

http://www.traditioninaction.org/Cultural/D003cpKnighthood.htm

http://www.illuminati-news.com/satanic_roots.htm

Never heard of that song. then again I was born in 85![Tooth]

[sniper7]

Sniper7, you believe in freedom right? What about truth, justice, etc. What tangible ways have you experienced any of those concepts?

Of course I do. Gun ownership is freedom, my asking questions about religion and faith is most certainly freedom, my decision if I want to go to work, how many kids I have the woman I married...all freedom.
truth is simple as well. Telling the truth and expecting the truth back as well as the freedom to question people who claim they are telling the truth. I.e. the govermemt or a religion
justice can be the simplest form on a personal level such as winning a court case or watching a corrupt elected official stripped of power and put in prison.

[Irving]

Great answer. Everything you listed is subjective to how you specifically feel about though.

I am trying to answer your question about people believing in the Bible since it may, or may not, be "true." My answer is, "People believe in the concept, so the actual truth of the events described, or words quoted, are irrelevant to what they believe in. Similar to how people "believe" in the content of Atlas Shrugged, even though John Galt never lived, and is entirely fictional."

I haven't been trying to trap you or anything, just answer your question. I have wanted to make this point for a while as I often hear people make similar statements, yet never qualify what their own beliefs are based upon.

[jim02]

What about the crusades, the French wars of religion, the muslim conquests, reconquista?
palestine and israel
pakistan and india
ethiopia and somalia
the nigerian conflict
buddhist uprising

The Thirty Years way Killed an estimated 11,000,000 people which was over 2% of the worlds population at the time
The French Wars of Religion killed an estimated 4,000,000 which was about 1% of the worlds population

Today the terms may have changed, but I would almost go as far to as to say 9/11 was a religious attack. Now we are killing thousands in the middle east although they are defined as terrorists instead of it being a religious was.
The killing of almost 6,000,000 Jews during the holocaust supposedly has mixed reasons such as hitler believed the Jews were aligned with the Bolshevik revolution in Russia making them communists, he blamed them for the loss in WWI, he did not like their beliefs.

I agree that other factors are responsible for more deaths, but the numbers definitely don't lie.

As to your comparing a book to a gun there is a great difference. The book is a guide how to live your life, how to raise your children, how to treat your wife, how to treat your neighbor, etc etc. The gun or bullet does not give you a guide for your life it is simply a tool that can be used for good or evil.

I dont belive the root of those wars was religion, it was power, money, conquest. It was not because you are Catholic and I am Baptist and we must hate each other. Now I would agree that we are in a global war today with one side fighting based on religions beliefs and that would be Islam, which is waging a global war on all those who are not.

Belief systems are usually written in books and they also can be a tool used for good or evil depending on it's interpertation, that is why I compare it with a gun.

[Clint45]

Ever hear 'Sympathy for the Devil' by the Stones? Jagger and thems rockers really got into Satanism back there in the 60's.


Actually, a lot of celebrities associated with LaVey and C.O.S. during the late 60s and early 70s . . . but it was just a stupid fad and LaVey didn't seem to take what he was doing very seriously anyway. Satanism was just considered another way of rebelling against what was considered a corrupt system led by traditional Judeo-Christian values and was done for shock value more than anything else. Young people did a lot of stupid stuff during the late 60s and early 70s . . . and then in the 80s most of them ended up getting haircuts and wearing ties.

[Clint45]

Soooo Clint- just what rights did we lose? List them. Or are you just beefing about the TSA? Get over it.

Mostly I'm just pissed off about the TSA. Did you know they even have them at train stations and bus terminals now?

As for what "rights" we lost, they were not specifically detailed in the Bill of Rights and I am hardly a Constitutional scholar, and electronic data and wireless communication is not deemed "papers" and falls into a grey area under the 4th Amendment right to be free from warrantless searches, so we may not have actually lost any "rights" at all. All of that was being done since wireless phones and the internet began, but no-one ever talked about it and it was inadmissible as evidence . . . but now they officially acknowledged that it is perfectly legal to read people's emails and hack into files on their computer . . . as long as you're working for a government agency rather than a newspaper. I don't care so much that they're doing it, it is the fact that they publicly say that there is nothing wrong with doing it that I'm pissed off about. And now, using that as a precedent, Customs and even some state police at highway checkpoints are asking citizens to hand over smart phones so they can access the files on them, for no apparent reason other than because they can.

But mostly I'm just in a bad mood about my broke ass car. [Rant1]

[rocktot]

Actually, a lot of celebrities associated with LaVey and C.O.S. during the late 60s and early 70s . . . but it was just a stupid fad and LaVey didn't seem to take what he was doing very seriously anyway. Satanism was just considered another way of rebelling against what was considered a corrupt system led by traditional Judeo-Christian values and was done for shock value more than anything else. Young people did a lot of stupid stuff during the late 60s and early 70s . . . and then in the 80s most of them ended up getting haircuts and wearing ties.


That was in reference to war in general. But those sites are pretty good info, on some deviations of Satanism, they even mention the tie in with Alexter Crowley.

Gee, no comments on my statement on how 'Satanism' goes back to the Greeks, over 4000 years ago? C'mOOOOOOOOoooooon! [Weight]

[Great-Kazoo]

Customs and even some state police at highway checkpoints are asking citizens to hand over smart phones so they can access the files on them, for no apparent reason other than because they can.

If the general public during a traffic stop hands over ANYTHING that is legal to own, they deserve what they get.
Sir may i look at your phone, Ummmmmmm Sorry officer no you may not.
We can detain you until a drug dog gets here. No problem, my attorney lives about 10 minutes from here. I'll ask him to bring some dog treats.

Only the sheep believe it's in society's best interest to comply.