Thinking out loud

[Recon]

This whole Virginia Tech thing has me thinking.

I’m just going to throw this out there for comment. I haven’t thought it through, and I haven’t seen this discussed much anywhere, so I’m really looking to brain storm. It’s free-form, random stream of consciousness.

I am not talking about jurisdictions in the U.S. where you can’t carry, concealed or otherwise. Nor am I talking about jurisdictions in the U.S. where you can carry concealed with permits, or without.

I am just talking about jurisdictions where you can carry open. In these jurisdictions, why don’t more people do it?

I’m sure some cops will look at you with a raised eyebrow, at the very least; especially if you don’t look like Joe Clean Cut or a Cop. Is that a deterrent? I’m sure that some civilians will look at you with a raised eyebrow, at the very least; especially if you don’t look like Joe Clean Cut or a Cop. Is that a deterrent?

Are there any other reasons that people don’t carry open when they legally could?

Because I have a sneaking suspicion that “social norms” are such that many people don’t carry open just because they don’t want to be seen as “different” or because they actually care what other people think of them. They don’t want to be seen as gun nuts, or playing cowboy, or paranoid, or whatever. After all, “civilized men” don’t need to carry guns, right? Hell, that was even the case in Dodge City, circa 1870s. It’s even more so now, right?

Well, if this is the case, then I would imagine gun owners are much like some religious, racial, sexual or physical minorities. We must be feeling like they do all the time. But, why should we feel embarrassed about open carry? Why should we feel “out of place.” It’s who we are (isn’t it?) and it’s legal. Why hide? Why Uncle Tom it? Why play the “man’s” game?

We all know we can go pretty much every where, open carry, but we don’t. Everyone looks for a concealed carry permit instead. Why? Are we ashamed? It almost seems like “they” (gun control types) have made us feel like strangers in our own home.

If that is the case, then maybe some jurisdiction somewhere (some part of Texas? Colorado?), needs to “take back the night.” Just like women, afraid of rape, have started “take back the night” programs. Just like homosexual types have parades. And just like some minorities stand up on their hind legs and stick out their chests. Maybe gun owners need to do the same thing.

I suppose some of us feel we are not like “them,” and we don’t run around wearing who we are on our sleeves like “they” do. We don’t rub our guns in people’s faces like “they” rub their status in our faces.

Well, if that is how we feel, and if that is the case, then maybe we need to be prepared to watch our rights slip away. Maybe if we don’t exercise our rights, we will lose them. Maybe if we buy into the social stigma then we are no better than a Black person who bought into it in the 1950s.

If we are a minority (as pro-gun types either are, or seem to be sometimes) and if we don’t carry open when we could, then maybe we deserve what we get.

Now, if it became a trend, and if people started open carry in all jurisdictions where it was legal to do so, and if it became the norm, and if seeing people with guns was second nature, and nobody gave a damn after awhile, and it was like seeing a man wearing a watch, then maybe we’d end up with some better inter-jurisdictional crime statistics for comparison. We could point at the lack of crime compared to other jurisdictions. Then the gun control types would NOT have their argument about inconsistency in jurisdictional laws, and how guns from Wyoming skew the peaceful people’s republic of Massachusetts and that is why they have gun crime.

Sure, we’d be the laughing stock of the national press for quite some time. Sure, cops would have to get used to seeing us at Safeway with an AR over our shoulder or a 1911 on our hip. Sure, mommies would grab kiddies, give us furtive looks, and run for while. But maybe that is the price we have to pay. Blacks paid it. Other minorities paid it.

I’m sure some blacks didn’t like the idea of sitting at certain lunch counters. I’m sure cripples and deformed folks would rather just stay at home sometimes. I’m sure many gays just want to stay in the closet. I’m sure some Jews and Muslims want to hide their religion in certain circumstances. The Cops and the “public” looked at them with raised eyebrows. Did that stop them?

I guess gun owners may want to hide in their own closet. So here we are, reduced to the status of a minority fighting for our rights in court and with lobbying firms, etc. But you know what, that might not be where the real work gets done. The civil rights movement didn’t get traction in court or in congress until AFTER they hit the streets and raised a ruckus. We could just hit the streets. We wouldn’t even have to raise a ruckus. After all, we have guns. What are we afraid of? Are we afraid of “push back” and losing more rights than we already have lost? Did that stop the civil rights movement?

It would be a long, very tough row to hoe. But it’s our CIVIL RIGHT! Is it worth it that kind of struggle? Why not exercise it some place besides the range or our living room?

Well, maybe it’s time we showed some balls like Rosa Parks and other civil rights icons, and started being a little more proud of who we are. It takes real courage to do that.

I don’t know why I should feel stupid shopping at Safeway with an AR over my shoulder, any more than some Black dude should feel stupid trying to join the local country club. But I would feel stupid. Maybe I need to get over that and start packing?

Nah, I don’t have the courage it would take. I’ll just keep pretending that my congressman and some judge will save my ass.

What say you?

[robsterclaw]

I saw a guy carrying a Glock openly into the Loaf n Jug in Fountain last week. He didn't look like a cop. If anything he looked like a cowboy. Cowboy hat and cowboy boots. Basically a normal guy. I did a double take, and just thought wow, you don't see that everyday. No one in LnJ gave the guy more then a glance, and a quick peek at his gun.

My only concern with lots of open carriers would be the scumbag losers that would try to swipe your gun out of the holster and run with it. I'm sure some wannabe gangbanger would try it. That said, I think the risk of that would be small so I don't see a real problem with what you've brought up. My mom says everytime we have a Holiday, she still can't get used to seeing my brothers gun clipped to his belt when he comes over. It's actually funny. He places his gun on the top shelf of some built in shelves. My kids ask is it loaded? Can you unload it and let me see it. They haven't seen a glock before. He said later and they obeyed. I keep a gun out in the living room, and they ask if they can see it. They know they can after I take out the magazine. I believe if you train them right, they'll respect the gun while they fascinate them.

I believe that is true with your idea. If you train the public by open carrying, it'll become second nature to seeing them on people and they will just go on with their day. No one at LnJ looked worried or scared in the slightest.

[Asha'man]

Hard to carry a bag of groceries with an AR slung over your shoulder. :mrgreen:

Not a bad point, though. Honestly, I've been meaning to get my CCW for a while now but had never given a thought to open carry. I'm sure I've got the balls to do it, it's just that it is kind of "against the social norm" as you said, so it really hadn't crossed my mind. And, as anyone who's met me can tell you, I'm definitely not a scruffy-looking person; if my hair's short I've been mistaken for military before and I dress well, if casually. So no "hermit gun nut from the hills" impression here.

I may consider this.

[Recon]

Well, I posted that on another forum and here is what I got from one guy:


Not to long ago a man went into his old doctor’s office to get his medical records to take to his new doctor. Will he was wearing a shoulder holster in the open.
When he checked in with the receptionist she seen he was armed with a weapon. She tell’s the office manager who gets the nurses to start clearing the waiting area and call the police.

Will they get the waiting area and office cleared and the police swat team shows up. They go in and have they guy get down on the ground and cuff him and take him into custody.

Will after talking to him for over 4 hours they let him go and told him not to wear his shoulder holster in public again.

The whole time the man was not threaten any one or acting funny. When the police came into the office waiting area he was reading a book.

The state of Missouri has a open carry law this was a year or two before the CCW was pasted.

The police even said he was legal to carry that way after it was done. But they did it this way because they did not know what he was going to do with it so they had to check it out as if he was going to do something with the weapon.

They man later told the news he knew he was in the right.
But said he also did every thing the police asked him to do and did not resist them any way for he had lived in a state that had a CCW law and knew what to do and not to do.

Somehow we'd have to bring the cops around before trying the open carry idea. Either that or overwhelm them with litigation every time some innocent gun-toter got popped (another civil rights tactic).

[HunterCO]

I open carry sometimes and the reason I don't normally do it really has nothing to do with anything you said. The reason I like to carry concealed is for the element of surprise. If you are out in public and some dirt bag decides to shoot the place up who do you think they are going to shoot first? Logic says shoot the person you see with a side arm once they are out of the way it's a free for all.

That is the great thing about concealed carry the criminals have no idea who is packing and who is not. This puts them at a great dissadvantage as they have no idea who can shoot back.

A few months back I open carried my serbu into the diamond shamrock gas station at C470 and quincy. Nobody seemed to care Marlin and M2MG where with me they can verify that.

[Recon]

To pursue this out a little further, how would you (generically speaking "you") feel if you were in any given public environment and saw a perfectly law abiding citizen with open carry who did not look like the "normal" person from your perspective? Say you were in Carbondale or Rifle or Steamboat Springs and saw a Black man, long dreadlocks, dirty cloths, scruffy beard. Substitute with any appearance you want, just not "cop-looking" or middle-class "harmless" type.

I guess I would make a concerted effort to not get my adrenaline up, just to remain consistent with my philosophy, but I would also have to confess to a little subjective profiling going on in my mind. I'd keep an eye on him. Similar to "nervouse" Arabs on a plane, I guess. I don't know if that is fair, but I'd do it anyway. Would that hurt the effort, making us like the cops in the doctors office?

And then, if you didn't do anything, and the guy did go off, ala Virginia Tech, you'll be second-guessed forever, just like the cops would be if the guy in the doctors office went off.

If everyone would just carry, then after several years, I think things would settle out fine. But in the mean time, there would be some problems, for sure.

[Pistol Packing Preacher]

Does anyone have statistics on Vermont crime? Vermont is and open Carry state where anyone can carry open or concealed with out a permit - as in our constitutional right!!!

Stats anyone???

[PsychoI3oy]

I was gonna say something here about the logical disconnect between being born black or gay or whatever and owning guns, but it'd just start a fight and I don't feel like doing that today.


Suffice it to say that I agree with the concept and I think there's a post around here somewhere about a national-open-carry-at-the-state-capital day that I'm seriously considering joining.

[Recon]

I was gonna say something here about the logical disconnect between being born black or gay or whatever and owning guns, but it'd just start a fight and I don't feel like doing that today.


Sorry, I wasn't looking for a fight either. I was just looking for an analogy to help make the point. I view my RTKBA as a civil right and a civil liberty and I was looking to history for some help, albiet awkwardly.

As to the other question, isn't there a a northern European country where everyone does military service and keeps their weapon? If I recall, they have virtually no crime. I want to say Sweden or Switzerland, but I don't remember.

[PsychoI3oy]

That'd be Switzerland. They are issued a Sig 500 series rifle (FA/burst/whatever) and a set amount of ammo on their completion of service (1-2 years, IIRC). Using said ammo outside of wartime is verboten. They are allowed to practice at ranges with the rifle, but (again, IIRC) they have to buy the ammo there and not take any home.

Yeah, it proves that having a lot of guns around doesn't increase crime, but drawing comparisons between Switzerland and the US is about as fallacious as drawing conclusions based on statistics between Japan and the UK, both of which have similar draconian anti-gun laws but wildly differing crime rates. The cultures are just completely different in all 4 countries.


And for my deleted-before-posting nitpicking (and the second paragraph above) let's just chalk it up to me playing devil's advocate as I agree completely with what you're saying but know how someone else would pick it apart.

[quivvy]

Does anyone have statistics on Vermont crime? Vermont is and open Carry state where anyone can carry open or concealed with out a permit - as in our constitutional right!!!

Stats anyone???

Yes-
Rent (or buy) John Lott's book "More Guns Less Crime" In one of the chapters he breaks down the crime rates in certain states based around CCW laws.

I know Vermont was the 2nd SAFEST state to live in in terms of murder/rape (i cant remmeber which and I can check later when I get home)

Alaska is also a no permit state (carry however without a permit) like Vermont. Alaska, surprisingly, is one of the LEAST safest states to live in terms of Rape (one of the countries highest rape states - top 3 i believe)

One must consider that it is more accurate to look at state statistics, because one bad city may throw off statistics for an ENTIRE state.

RECON-
id like to interject and say i appreciate your thought and i wish we could open carry without funny looks. I've open carried on hikes in teh national forest and just act normal when i see people and no one seems to act any different except glance at the .357 on my hip. unfortunately, i feel that if i open carried in the republic of boulder which i reside, id be tackled and arrested.

also, the analogy of the black/gay/jew thing seems a little extreme and exagerated. i'm in no way trying to start a dispute, i could just see alot of people taking the analogy the wrong way. i fully see your intention though. [/i]

[Chaffee2]

Montana ramblings:

From what I've seen up here is most people who open carry and dress nice are not given more than a passing glance if that.

One guy I know who looks like crap out in public, I.E. dresses in all black, low slung hoslter on his thigh etc. He has had some issues not so much with the cops as far as I know they have never even talked to him. But he has had a few problems with business owners not wanting him their place of business.

I saw a guy in Missoula and I talked to him for awhile about guns and such. He looked like crap, worn clothes, cheap belt and holster etc. He travels the western states alot and has had only one negitive encounter. This was with a kid clerk in a 7-11 type store. She freaked, he talked to her nice and left when she asked him to.

So I guess I'm trying to say if you look "normal" dress nice you probably won't have a problem. I don't open carry in town but I do out in the boonies.

In 44 days when we move home to Co I don't know if I will open carry in the woods or not. I had more encounters with moonbats in Colorado than anywhere else I've ever been. I don't need the hassle so what they don't know won't cause me any problems, most likely I will just carry concealed.

[M2MG]

I open carry sometimes and the reason I don't normally do it really has nothing to do with anything you said. The reason I like to carry concealed is for the element of surprise. If you are out in public and some dirt bag decides to shoot the place up who do you think they are going to shoot first? Logic says shoot the person you see with a side arm once they are out of the way it's a free for all.

That is the great thing about concealed carry the criminals have no idea who is packing and who is not. This puts them at a great dissadvantage as they have no idea who can shoot back.

A few months back I open carried my serbu into the diamond shamrock gas station at C470 and quincy. Nobody seemed to care Marlin and M2MG where with me they can verify that.

Senator, I do not recall this.

M2MG [poke] Hunter

[M2MG]

This whole Virginia Tech thing has me thinking.

I’m just going to throw this out there for comment. I haven’t thought it through, and I haven’t seen this discussed much anywhere, so I’m really looking to brain storm. It’s free-form, random stream of consciousness.

I am not talking about jurisdictions in the U.S. where you can’t carry, concealed or otherwise. Nor am I talking about jurisdictions in the U.S. where you can carry concealed with permits, or without.

I am just talking about jurisdictions where you can carry open. In these jurisdictions, why don’t more people do it?

I’m sure some cops will look at you with a raised eyebrow, at the very least; especially if you don’t look like Joe Clean Cut or a Cop. Is that a deterrent? I’m sure that some civilians will look at you with a raised eyebrow, at the very least; especially if you don’t look like Joe Clean Cut or a Cop. Is that a deterrent?

Are there any other reasons that people don’t carry open when they legally could?

Because I have a sneaking suspicion that “social norms” are such that many people don’t carry open just because they don’t want to be seen as “different” or because they actually care what other people think of them. They don’t want to be seen as gun nuts, or playing cowboy, or paranoid, or whatever. After all, “civilized men” don’t need to carry guns, right? Hell, that was even the case in Dodge City, circa 1870s. It’s even more so now, right?

Well, if this is the case, then I would imagine gun owners are much like some religious, racial, sexual or physical minorities. We must be feeling like they do all the time. But, why should we feel embarrassed about open carry? Why should we feel “out of place.” It’s who we are (isn’t it?) and it’s legal. Why hide? Why Uncle Tom it? Why play the “man’s” game?

We all know we can go pretty much every where, open carry, but we don’t. Everyone looks for a concealed carry permit instead. Why? Are we ashamed? It almost seems like “they” (gun control types) have made us feel like strangers in our own home.

If that is the case, then maybe some jurisdiction somewhere (some part of Texas? Colorado?), needs to “take back the night.” Just like women, afraid of rape, have started “take back the night” programs. Just like homosexual types have parades. And just like some minorities stand up on their hind legs and stick out their chests. Maybe gun owners need to do the same thing.

I suppose some of us feel we are not like “them,” and we don’t run around wearing who we are on our sleeves like “they” do. We don’t rub our guns in people’s faces like “they” rub their status in our faces.

Well, if that is how we feel, and if that is the case, then maybe we need to be prepared to watch our rights slip away. Maybe if we don’t exercise our rights, we will lose them. Maybe if we buy into the social stigma then we are no better than a Black person who bought into it in the 1950s.

If we are a minority (as pro-gun types either are, or seem to be sometimes) and if we don’t carry open when we could, then maybe we deserve what we get.

Now, if it became a trend, and if people started open carry in all jurisdictions where it was legal to do so, and if it became the norm, and if seeing people with guns was second nature, and nobody gave a damn after awhile, and it was like seeing a man wearing a watch, then maybe we’d end up with some better inter-jurisdictional crime statistics for comparison. We could point at the lack of crime compared to other jurisdictions. Then the gun control types would NOT have their argument about inconsistency in jurisdictional laws, and how guns from Wyoming skew the peaceful people’s republic of Massachusetts and that is why they have gun crime.

Sure, we’d be the laughing stock of the national press for quite some time. Sure, cops would have to get used to seeing us at Safeway with an AR over our shoulder or a 1911 on our hip. Sure, mommies would grab kiddies, give us furtive looks, and run for while. But maybe that is the price we have to pay. Blacks paid it. Other minorities paid it.

I’m sure some blacks didn’t like the idea of sitting at certain lunch counters. I’m sure cripples and deformed folks would rather just stay at home sometimes. I’m sure many gays just want to stay in the closet. I’m sure some Jews and Muslims want to hide their religion in certain circumstances. The Cops and the “public” looked at them with raised eyebrows. Did that stop them?

I guess gun owners may want to hide in their own closet. So here we are, reduced to the status of a minority fighting for our rights in court and with lobbying firms, etc. But you know what, that might not be where the real work gets done. The civil rights movement didn’t get traction in court or in congress until AFTER they hit the streets and raised a ruckus. We could just hit the streets. We wouldn’t even have to raise a ruckus. After all, we have guns. What are we afraid of? Are we afraid of “push back” and losing more rights than we already have lost? Did that stop the civil rights movement?

It would be a long, very tough row to hoe. But it’s our CIVIL RIGHT! Is it worth it that kind of struggle? Why not exercise it some place besides the range or our living room?

Well, maybe it’s time we showed some balls like Rosa Parks and other civil rights icons, and started being a little more proud of who we are. It takes real courage to do that.

I don’t know why I should feel stupid shopping at Safeway with an AR over my shoulder, any more than some Black dude should feel stupid trying to join the local country club. But I would feel stupid. Maybe I need to get over that and start packing?

Nah, I don’t have the courage it would take. I’ll just keep pretending that my congressman and some judge will save my xxx.

What say you?



I think you have some strong points, when I went to college in Gunnison many years ago, my roommate and I would bring our 12ga's into class after duck hunting in the morning. The only questions we ever got were "how many did you get"? A gun in Gunnison, just wasn't a big deal.

I've been thinking for a few months about how we can "break in" the public to the idea of open carry. I've been reading a lot of post on the FALFILES.com by one of the Mod's, W.E.G. he's also the President of the VCDL (Virginia Citizens Denfence League). He was the driving force behind the bill that would have allowed students and staff on college campus in VA that had a CCW to carry. This bill was killed in only a few days before the VT shooting. VCDL has done a very good job of getting out the word about open carry in Virginia. Try to get over to the FALFILES.com and checkout W.E.G.'s threads.

As for us in COLO, maybe with the summer coming up we could plan some open carry b-b-q events in a park that it's legal to open carry in. Make it a family event with the kids, the other half, and some vollyball nets, horseshoes, brats and a soda.

Maybe if we included a raffle for gun as the event, the word would get around quick.

What do you think?

M2MG

[HunterCO]

Downtown sounds good to me. :twisted:

[Recon]

I'd be willing to participate, but I don't have time to organize.

I also think that a "day" would be good, where everyone went open carry in their own AO. The cops and the media, statewide, could be given the heads-up, just so they'd know when the calls started coming in.

God forbid anything bad happened on that day. In fact, you might have to worry about sabatage from the gun control crowd.

But I think that idea might be an opportunity to start some dialogue, laying the foundation for a 24/7/365 open carry "norm."

On the other hand, I think we all have to admit we have our 10% that could screw the pooch. You know the media would focus on the Rambos, Skin Heads and others that would come crawling out of the wood work.

The more I think about it, the more I like the concealed carry thing. But I can't help but feel we forfiet something by not going open carry. I've already expressed those feelings above.

[Obiwan]

"if he isn't intimidated all he has to do is disarm you first"

A very real threat...and not just because he may want your wallet

Think about it...who open carries all the time...everywhere?

The police...and look at the stats on how often they are shot with their own weapon.

If carrying concealed is a great responsibility, carrying open raises the bar even further. A bad guy with a tire iron has just walked into an outdoor gun store and all he needs is one gunowner that is distracted
and he will walk away much better armed

Public perception is also a problem

Even where legal you run the risk of someone panicking

There are plenty of stories of CCW holders accidently flashing their weapon and having the police called

I am all for passive resistance...but I am not real thrilled with having guns pointed at me on anything like a regular basis...as we saw this week...even the Secret Service can have an accident

Someone earlier said it well...there needs to be some education to go along with an efforts like this

[M2MG]

I'd be willing to participate, but I don't have time to organize.

I also think that a "day" would be good, where everyone went open carry in their own AO. The cops and the media, statewide, could be given the heads-up, just so they'd know when the calls started coming in.

God forbid anything bad happened on that day. In fact, you might have to worry about sabatage from the gun control crowd.

But I think that idea might be an opportunity to start some dialogue, laying the foundation for a 24/7/365 open carry "norm."

On the other hand, I think we all have to admit we have our 10% that could screw the pooch. You know the media would focus on the Rambos, Skin Heads and others that would come crawling out of the wood work.

The more I think about it, the more I like the concealed carry thing. But I can't help but feel we forfiet something by not going open carry. I've already expressed those feelings above.

I thought a little bit about the sabatoge possibility or some dumb asses showing up. The best way I can think of is if a few of US bring our video cameras to document the event.

If this is going to work, we have to think through the issues. Keep the ideas coming.

M2MG

[shrapmetal]

im sure if we all gathered with open carry we would meet our local LEO's really fast. then the media would follow and do a piece on us that would be all twisted around with us surronded by cops. it would be hard to get good PR out of this. i'm sure they would say we were insensitive to the recent shooting. the chances of us getting to speak our minds is slim to none.

[Recon]

im sure if we all gathered with open carry we would meet our local LEO's really fast. then the media would follow and do a piece on us that would be all twisted around with us surronded by cops. it would be hard to get good PR out of this. i'm sure they would say we were insensitive to the recent shooting. the chances of us getting to speak our minds is slim to none.

Yep. Unfortunately true.

Too bad we couldn't find all the examples of a rightous shoot and then make a hero of the shooter, saying "He/she saved 40 innocent lives today! Men, women and children." Then, when the media says "What do you mean?" We say, "Well, had this person not been capped, they were going to kill 40 more people across town." When the media says "How do you know that?" We say "See our dilima, you moron?" :mrgreen:

[M2MG]

im sure if we all gathered with open carry we would meet our local LEO's really fast. then the media would follow and do a piece on us that would be all twisted around with us surronded by cops. it would be hard to get good PR out of this. i'm sure they would say we were insensitive to the recent shooting. the chances of us getting to speak our minds is slim to none.


Maybe not, if we did this is MUST be organized right. First we must be a legal area, a County area, not in a City unless we're SURE of the law. Second, the event itself can't be threatening, that swhy I suggested a BBQ. If LE shows up, offer them a hot dog and a soda, same with the media. Make sure we have our kids eating ice cream, hell I'll be eating ice cream. All the time OUR video cameras are running. Low key, family event, having fun, just with open carry.

M2MG

[shrapmetal]

im sure if we all gathered with open carry we would meet our local LEO's really fast. then the media would follow and do a piece on us that would be all twisted around with us surronded by cops. it would be hard to get good PR out of this. i'm sure they would say we were insensitive to the recent shooting. the chances of us getting to speak our minds is slim to none.

Yep. Unfortunately true.

Too bad we couldn't find all the examples of a rightous shoot and then make a hero of the shooter, saying "He/she saved 40 innocent lives today! Men, women and children." Then, when the media says "What do you mean?" We say, "Well, had this person not been capped, they were going to kill 40 more people across town." When the media says "How do you know that?" We say "See our dilima, you moron?" :mrgreen:

what about that mall shooting not so long ago. wasn't it a off duty cop that put and end to it? almost to bad it wasn't just some average joe. funny how that story went away so fast. Glen Beck had an ok show today. i only caught the last half but he only blamed the shooter and had someone on saying we should stop coddeling our kids so the can take care of themselves.
i'm going to stop watching the news for a few days so i can get the taste of vomit out of my mouth.