Sticking to their guns: Marines place $22.5M order for the Colt .45 M1911

[bogie]

Why change a good thing?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/28/marines-pay-22m-to-go-back-to-their-old-guns-colt-45-caliber-pistols/



It’s been called the greatest handgun ever made, and it has barely changed sine 1911, when the legendary John Browning designed it especially for the U.S. Military.
And now, the Colt .45 M1911 is making a big comeback, now that the U.S. Marines have placed a $22.5 million order for the Connecticut-made pistols.
The gun, which has been wielded on film by John Wayne and in real life by Sgt. Alvin York and Maj. Audie Murphy, was the standard-issue sidearm in the military for decades, until it was replaced by the Beretta M9 in 1985.
"It just became an iconic part of military and American history."- Gerry Dinkel, CEO and president of Colt Defense

"It just became an iconic part of military and American history," Gerry Dinkel, CEO and president of Colt Defense, told FoxNews.com.
The gun, one of the most successful pistols ever used at Camp Perry's National Matches, a competition known to be the main world event in artillery sports, has barely changed since it's creation. Dinkel says that shows the gun's "elegant design" just can't be improved on. And firearms experts agree.
"You can’t beat a .45 cartridge," Jack Lewis, firearms director for Cowan's Auctions, told FoxNews.com. "Some things are hard to replace," he said.
Colt Defense, based in Hartford, Conn., will supply as many as 12,000 of the 200,000 U.S. Marines with semi-automatic, tan-colored M45 Close Quarter Battle Pistols, and they will include spare parts and logistical support. The gun has long been the weapon of choice for special operations agents, thanks to its reliability and the stopping power of its massive bullets.
"I'm really glad that they're keeping it in the American economy," Lewis, who used the gun while he was in the armed forces, said. "I was quite upset when they went to the Beretta," Lewis said.
Some reports suggest Marines are not happy with their main Beretta M9s for their lack of accuracy and stopping power. With M1911's now supplying Special Ops, growing interest may lead to a better solution.
"To have the 1911 selected again for U. S. Forces 101 years after its initial introduction is just an incredible testament to the timeless design and effectiveness of the Colt 1911," Dinkel said. "This is truly a gratifying contract award."



Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/28/marines-pay-22m-to-go-back-to-their-old-guns-colt-45-caliber-pistols/#ixzz21wsO8dVS

[Cylinder Head]

I think the HK45 would have been a much better choice but who am I to talk.

[UncleDave]

I think the HK45 would have been a much better choice but who am I to talk.

Heresy!! The H&K is a fine weapon, but it was not handed down from on high by John Moses Browning.

[Flatline]

I think the HK45 would have been a much better choice but who am I to talk.

I think it's good that they are keeping the dollars state side.

Besides, just about anyone can effectively handle a 1911, but some of the women or guys with smaller hands may have difficulty handling a hk45.

[AirbornePathogen]

I think it's good that they are keeping the dollars state side.

Besides, just about anyone can effectively handle a 1911, but some of the women or guys with smaller hands may have difficulty handling a hk45.

This. I'm a smallish guy with smallish hands, and I always had some issues with the M9. I'm much more natural and more accurate with my 1911.

[flan7211]

Terrible idea. Glock would have been better.

[Scanker19]

Terrible idea. Glock would have been better.

(common) People in the Military are too stupid to use a gun with no safety.

[Wiggity]

The 1911 just doesn't have the capacity and is heavy for what it is.


And the part about the M9's lack of accuracy and stopping power is just stupid lol


That being said, I'm glad they are keeping their business with their country

[lead_magnet]

I agree, kinda dumb. The 1911 is a great gun, don't get me wrong. For CCW is fine, though not my cup of tea, but if I'm litterally taking a pistol with me to war, it should hold way more than 7 rounds. To quote the infamous rapper "funk dat!"

[Chad4000]

Capacity is king...

[nisils14]

I think ergonomics is a big part in why I like 1911s so much. The M9 feels beefcake, unless one has have a XL hand, the pistol gets unwieldy for me.
Here's some capacity.[ROFL1]

http://cdn1.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd_images/bgprod/MAG-263.jpg

[Colorado Osprey]

choosing to go back to a design over a 100 years old is just plain... duh. Some military purchaser got nostalgic.

Why not go back to the 1903 Springfield too? The people who claim the M-16/M4 who don't have enough stopping power will be silenced.

There is a reason things change... those that are stuck on the 1911 is just nostalgia. I too went through the 1911 nostalgia stage when I 1st started collecting firearms. Then I realized there are better guns... Hand built 1911's are pieces of art. Most 1911's these days are mass produced plinkers. From the initial tests that put the M9 in the hands of the military, the 9mm was more accurate and reliable than the military 1911 in most people's hands. I'm not talking about hand built tuned accurate 1911's. That is the reason for the big switch. The bonus was magazine capacity.

I also do not buy in to the 45ACP is king theory. For those that want superior stopping power need to look at the (full house) 10mm for ammo capacity and energy. It puts the 45ACP to shame in all categories.

[jerrymrc]

And the part about the M9's lack of accuracy and stopping power is just stupid lol



I have a friend that did two tours and had to use his M9 in a real life situation that would disagree with you. ;)

[Bailey Guns]

Capacity is king...

Personally, I'd say reliability is king. And keep in mind it's very easy to get 11 rounds in a single stack 1911 if you (or the military) chooses to go with 10 round mags. That's only a few less than the combat Tupperware guns out there.

I think it's an excellent choice. From a completely nostalgic viewpoint, I think it's fantastic.

[Wiggity]

I have a friend that did two tours and had to use his M9 in a real life situation that would disagree with you. ;)

How would the .45 have performed better? Unless you hit something vital, the difference in stopping power is negligible. 9mm-.45 are just plain shitty for stopping power.

Maybe I should have qualified my post with "compared to the .45" [Coffee]

[J]

I hate the beretta, the ergos and shape just feel awful to me.

For those of you who are saying the M9 has ample stopping power, remember that the Hague convention prohibits expanding ammo. So while we or our police have, IMHO, ample stopping power with 124gr +p hollow points, they shoot FMJs. Might as well stab the guy with a thin ice pick.

That said, if I was I Kandahar, I'd like more than 8 shots. A glock 21 perhaps for me. Better capacity, broad bullet face, and a proven and reliable design. Of course the mil wants a safety, perhaps for $23M gaston could make a custom model for them.

[Scanker19]

FMJs suck in general, Keep in mind they wound not kill.

The Marines aren't known for being especially smart. Single action only sucks, Especially if you need the double action.


Keep in Mind if your using your pistol, as a common ground guy, you're either a tanker in 2003 or in some seriously deep shit.

I like the 1911 but there are better choices for a combat hand gun. "but jordan, its a 100 year old design that works" So was standing in a line and shooting at each other.

[Fist_gonzo]

I hate the beretta, the ergos and shape just feel awful to me.

For those of you who are saying the M9 has ample stopping power, remember that the Hague convention prohibits expanding ammo. So while we or our police have, IMHO, ample stopping power with 124gr +p hollow points, they shoot FMJs. Might as well stab the guy with a thin ice pick.

That said, if I was I Kandahar, I'd like more than 8 shots. A glock 21 perhaps for me. Better capacity, broad bullet face, and a proven and reliable design. Of course the mil wants a safety, perhaps for $23M gaston could make a custom model for them.

+1 deployed with a m9 and hated it, loved getting it back from the armsroom with a layer of rust on it even after coating it with clp. L think the 1911 was a better choice but imo they couldve done better

[J]

Agreed on FMJs sucking Jordan. But if I'm shooting FMJ, I want .45" instead of .36". And I'm a guy who has 6 pistol 9mms and only 2 .45s

I like the 9mm round, but not if I'm forced to use FMJ.

[Wiggity]

I hate the beretta, the ergos and shape just feel awful to me.

For those of you who are saying the M9 has ample stopping power, remember that the Hague convention prohibits expanding ammo. So while we or our police have, IMHO, ample stopping power with 124gr +p hollow points, they shoot FMJs. Might as well stab the guy with a thin ice pick.

That said, if I was I Kandahar, I'd like more than 8 shots. A glock 21 perhaps for me. Better capacity, broad bullet face, and a proven and reliable design. Of course the mil wants a safety, perhaps for $23M gaston could make a custom model for them.

Weird, they feel great to me, but I have monster hands.

Again, its all about shot placement. You hit someone in the face, spine, neck, heart, major arteries, and its over.

[J]

There is a reason they still sell them. Some people must love em. I'm not part of that some people. To each their own.

[DD977GM2]

So many better pistols even American made to have chosen instead. I am a 1911 guy and love CCWing it.

Id go as far as saying the S&W M&P 45 but woul dfirst say the XD45 would have
been the best choice if we are talking American made.

[Fist_gonzo]

So many better pistols even American made to have chosen instead. I am a 1911 guy and love CCWing it.

Id go as far as saying the S&W M&P 45 but woul dfirst say the XD45 would have
been the best choice if we are talking American made.

Not trying to be a dick but arent xd's made croatia? Or are they just the hs2000 design and built in the states?

[Bailey Guns]

Croatia.

[Clint45]

Everyone knows if you shoot a bag guy in the finger with a .45 ACP their head instantly bursts into flame . . . it is much better than a .357 magnum which will only shoot through engine blocks.

That being said, at $1,500 a pop those pieces better be Series 70 with ambi safety, trigger jobs, and match barrels.

[spqrzilla]

There are a lot of opinions on this board about the 1911 buy that seem to not understand the intended enduser and their intended usage.

And I'm blown away by people citing foreign made pistols as American made ...

[Madusa]

Colt Defense, based in Hartford, Conn., will supply as many as 12,000 of the 200,000 U.S. Marines with semi-automatic, tan-colored M45 Close Quarter Battle Pistols, and they will include spare parts and logistical support.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/28/marines-pay-22m-to-go-back-to-their-old-guns-colt-45-caliber-pistols/#ixzz21xkExHw7

1. Are there 200,000 Marines? I thought there was only 3 divisions.
2. $22,500,000 for 12,000 1911's = $1875= I smell kickback

[bogie]

For those of you guys hating on the price the gov't paid, reread this part of the article:


Colt Defense, based in Hartford, Conn., will supply as many as 12,000 of the 200,000 U.S. Marines with semi-automatic, tan-colored M45 Close Quarter Battle Pistols, and they will include spare parts and logistical support.

Who knows exactly what this means in the books, but it's probably considerably more support than just the pistol. It could amount to things like armorers training and kits, etc.

I figured this would stir debate. [Beer]

[Scanker19]

For those of you guys hating on the price the gov't paid, reread this part of the article:



Who knows exactly what this means in the books, but it's probably considerably more support than just the pistol. It could amount to things like armorers training and kits, etc.

I figured this would stir debate. [Beer]

That's usually how contracts work. Parts, accessories, etc....

[DD977GM2]

Not trying to be a dick but arent xd's made croatia? Or are they just the hs2000 design and built in the states?

Croatia......damnit. Nix that one off the list!!!!

[hatidua]

at $1,500 a pop those pieces better be Series 70

Unless it was specifically changed for the Marines, Colt Rail Guns are Series-80.

[Teufelhund]

I hated the M9 I shot in the Corps. It didn't feel good in my hand, and it was an inaccurate POS compared to other pistols I've fired. I know a lot of people like them though; just personal preference.

I agree that reliability trumps capacity any day. The M&P45 or even 40 would have been an excellent alternative, and likely cheaper than Colt 1911s.

[Cylinder Head]

I think it's good that they are keeping the dollars state side.

Besides, just about anyone can effectively handle a 1911, but some of the women or guys with smaller hands may have difficulty handling a hk45.

I have pretty damn small hands and use the large backstrap on my HK45. It's definitely not a USP. Besides these guns are now made in 'Murrica.

[Cylinder Head]

Not trying to be a dick but arent xd's made croatia? Or are they just the hs2000 design and built in the states?

Yes and they suck. Sorry to those who own XD's but you paid double what it's worth.

[Scanker19]

I liked my M9. It went bang every time because I did that thing you do to your guns when your life depends on them.... what it is?.......... oh MAINTAIN them.

I've seen how most people treat their "chow hall" weapon, hell I've seen how they treat their rifle. This goes back to the lack of discipline that is plaguing our nation and Military (I can only speak for the army, but everyone is getting touchy feely).



It's not the best out there, but like I said it shot every time I asked it to. As far as accuracy, if you can shoot the wings off a fly when your gross motor skills go out the window during a high stress engagement, more power to you. I'll aim and hit center mass every time. Again there are better guns than the 1911 and M9 for the military.

[Goodburbon]

I agree

There are better guns.

I have a beretta. I'm partial to it, it's my first pistol. That said, I have to change my grip to drop a mag. The action is slower and clunky compared to my other pistols. It's proven itself to be less reliable, but I tracked it down to a bad magazine and it's now reliable. It is #1 in simplicity of takedown and cleaning, I hate pulling the trigger during disassembly. Accurate enough to hit a plate at 100yds.

I have a 1911, I like it, but as many have stated the capacity is not even half the M9. Takedown is the most complicated, accuracy is good, eats fmj flawlessly. Not my choice for battle though.

XD Yes made in croatia. mine has been 100% minus 1 reload that I suspect had an unseatd primer. Tighter action than the M9 , durble stainless mags this would have been a better choice.

Glock. Why not? safety? reliable, decently accurate, high capacity.

HK ,the weapon I'd have with me if I was given the choice. Cheaper than the 1911 too. The only one I don't have to change my grip to drop a mag. I'm plagued with short thumbs.

I don't have an M&P yet.


Nostalgia I guess. Of the guns listed the 1911 is the last one I would choose to go to war with.

[Bailey Guns]

With 7+1 it is half the capacity of an M9 at 15+1. With 8+1 it's over half.

And I agree with this wholeheartedly:


There are a lot of opinions on this board about the 1911 buy that seem to not understand the intended enduser and their intended usage.

It's intended for MEUSOC. Not your typical grunt.

[ben4372]

I find it a little silly, unless they start using the Willys too. They have been using 1911's for the longest time, certain groups never stopped. I heard they were rebuilding the same units they had before the M9. I also read the cost to rebuild these 30 year old guns was 1-2000 dollars. So this may be a deal. And I cant wait for the M9 spare parts to get thrown away. I'll be dumpster diving.

[bigun1962]

Thankfully most of us will never see combat or a life and death situation. Most of the people responding to this forum do not have a clue. However when the crap hits the fan 45 caliber wins every time against something smaller. Got the t-shirt. When you need to, reloading is not an issue. Shooting a threat more than 5 times and still having a threat is a problem.

[glocklp]

Glock all the way.

[Goodburbon]

Thankfully most of us will never see combat or a life and death situation. Most of the people responding to this forum do not have a clue. However when the crap hits the fan 45 caliber wins every time against something smaller. Got the t-shirt. When you need to, reloading is not an issue. Shooting a threat more than 5 times and still having a threat is a problem.

Glock, M&P, XD, HK are all available in .45.


7 is less than half of 15, the basis of my statement. Beretta also has extended mags, I'm not counting extended mags.

[jmg8550]

Just my opinion, and I may be out of line... If you have to pull your pistol in COMBAT I'd say you are screwed anyway. The pistol is a defensive weapon. 7 rounds, 15 rounds, hell it could be 30 rounds, You are still screwed if you have to use it in battle.

[tmckay2]

i think the whole argument about which pistol on a mass scale is stupid anyway. pistols, to me, are very much about the shooter. in this case they don't have a choice, fine, they have to order a large amount of something but everyone saying this is better or thats better really are just speaking from opinion. pistols aren't like rifles, they can be very tricky to shoot accurately and quickly depending on shooting style, hands, etc. the 1911 has ALWAYS felt perfect in my hands. i don't know why. ive tried lots of newer made pistols including ones from springfield, hk, glock and several others. i don't know why but i can't shoot worth a crap with them. i get a 1911 and its natural. i also prefer their triggers. simple, easy and crisp. i feel for people who don't shoot ALL the time, the 1911 trigger allows for more accurate shooting.

but again, in my opinion pistols have so much to do with each individual shooter. no one would ever agree on whats best.

[josh7328]

Pistols serve a tremendous purpose on mounted patrols. Afghans like to try and open your doors to do God knows what once it's open. luckily, people usually keep them combat locked, but in the event that somebody forgot to lock the door, I'd want a quick handling .45 in my hand. Same goes for an open turret gunner. M4 is useless inside of a truck.

[bryjcom]

Interesting data about pistol calibers and their statistics. The .45 did not perform all that much better than the 9mm. Keep in mind that the 9mm statistics are based on 456 people shot while the 45 was at 209

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866


.45 ACP # of people shot - 209
# of hits - 436
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.08
% of people who were not incapacitated - 14%
One-shot-stop % - 39%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 85%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 51%

9mm Luger # of people shot - 456
# of hits - 1121
% of hits that were fatal - 24%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.45
% of people who were not incapacitated - 13%
One-shot-stop % - 34%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 74%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 47%

[Flatline]

Interesting data about pistol calibers and their statistics. The .45 did not perform all that much better than the 9mm. Keep in mind that the 9mm statistics are based on 456 people shot while the 45 was at 209

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

Is that analyzing FMJ rounds only?

[DSull]

It's about time someone listened to the troops the M9 was is and always will be a POS. ooooooorrraahhh for the Corps.

[bryjcom]

I would imagine a multitude of types of bullets where used

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/publicfiles/Ellifritz_Failure_to_Incap.png
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/publicfiles/Ellifritz_Rnds_to_Incap.png

[Bailey Guns]

According to that lower graph I'd better start carrying a .22. Looks to be about as effective as a rifle.

Or maybe I'll just stick to carrying what I like and what I shoot well, and planning to shoot the threat enough to make it stop.

[bryjcom]

According to that lower graph I'd better start carrying a .22. Looks to be about as effective as a rifle.

Or maybe I'll just stick to carrying what I like and what I shoot well, and planning to shoot the threat enough to make it stop.




Thats what it always comes down too.

[josh7328]

So here's the real question: 9mm VS. 45? [Pop]

[spqrzilla]

Imagination is not data.

[spyder]

I think the HK45 would have been a much better choice but who am I to talk.
Extreme reliability, durability, and accuracy for a lot less than a comparable 1911. Keep talkin.

Heresy!! The H&K is a fine weapon, but it was not handed down from on high by John Moses Browning.
If you tear apart a USP, you will see how similar they are to the 1911 (well, till you get to the back). [Beer]

I think it's good that they are keeping the dollars state side.

Besides, just about anyone can effectively handle a 1911, but some of the women or guys with smaller hands may have difficulty handling a hk45.
The size difference between a 1911 and Hk's of the 45 version, are not that different:

1911 with a [B]straight mainspring housing
http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/asrspyder/DSCN2459.jpg
USP Compact
http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/asrspyder/DSCN2460.jpg
USP full size
http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/asrspyder/DSCN2461.jpg
Hk45 with small backstrap
http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/asrspyder/DSCN2462.jpg

The 1911 is 5 3/8" around and the Hk45 is only 5/16" bigger. The main reason why people dislike the USP line is because the grip is kinda square. The 1911's grip is more oblong, oval in shape, big difference in comfort. THe Hk45 is a good change up for Hk here because the grip is a lot like that of the 1911 vs the USP grip shape wise. You can also change out the back strap of the Hk45 if you have bigger hands. Oh, and with the Hk45, you get a highly accurate, and highly reliable gun right out of the box for much less than a comparable 1911.


Personally, I'd say reliability is king. And keep in mind it's very easy to get 11 rounds in a single stack 1911 if you (or the military) chooses to go with 10 round mags. That's only a few less than the combat Tupperware guns out there.


I think it's an excellent choice. From a completely nostalgic viewpoint, I think it's fantastic.
If reliability is king, I hope they would go with STI or something that is actually reliable in a 1911... Out of the box, the RIA's are reliable, shoot them enough though without cleaning, and you run into problems. Same with most 1911's. Their dependability goes down hill fast unless they're maintained. At least mine all did (RIA, Kimber Raptor II, SA), my Nighthawk was like a champ, but the cost of the damn thing...... You could buy two Hk45's and you are getting the same reliability and accuracy.





...I have a 1911, I like it, but as many have stated the capacity is not even half the M9. Takedown is the most complicated, accuracy is good, eats fmj flawlessly. Not my choice for battle though.

XD Yes made in croatia. mine has been 100% minus 1 reload that I suspect had an unseatd primer. Tighter action than the M9 , durble stainless mags this would have been a better choice.

Glock. Why not? safety? reliable, decently accurate, high capacity.

HK ,the weapon I'd have with me if I was given the choice. Cheaper than the 1911 too. The only one I don't have to change my grip to drop a mag. I'm plagued with short thumbs.

I don't have an M&P yet.


Nostalgia I guess. Of the guns listed the 1911 is the last one I would choose to go to war with.
You think it is easier to take apart your M9 than a 1911? I just had to ask.


I'm an Hk lover all the way of course. I figure though when you are shopping for a carry gun that you carry because your life might have to depend on it, why settle? I think that is one thing you wouldn't settle on, your life. I've owned a ton of guns (kinda a gun whore), and the Hk's (for me) have shown the best reliability. Any gun should run clean, it's when you get into the rounds when you start to see the flaws that gum guns up. If you are in the military, or anywhere that your gun might get grime in it.... well, you had better not have a finicky gun on your hip. I want one that has proven to go bang every time and so far, that has only been a few. There has been a 1911 in that mix also, but like I said, it was pricy as hell. Oh, and my FNP did nice also. [Beer]

[Guylee]

That's interesting, seeing as the army appears to be leaning towards the glock 17. I wonder if the difference between services will cause problems.

[Ah Pook]

This quickly turned into "your gun is poop par deux".



[Pop]

[Goodburbon]

[Beer]
You think it is easier to take apart your M9 than a 1911? I just had to ask.



I'm talking field level strip to clean up and oil. Something you'd trust a grunt to do, not 100% takedown. Yes,with the beretta I can do it blindfolded with one hand.

[Troublco]

I was never particularly fond of the M9, although I always qualified expert. I like the M11 I qualify with now better than the M9, but I'd rather have something more than a 9mm. If things get ugly enough that I really need to be using a pistol, I'd rather have the .45...unless I could have a 10mm.

[tmckay2]

I'm talking field level strip to clean up and oil. Something you'd trust a grunt to do, not 100% takedown. Yes,with the beretta I can do it blindfolded with one hand.

1911 takedowns are incredibly easy. It's one pin and requires no tools.

[Scanker19]

I'm just curious on what people think it take to Field strip an M9? The M9 has no pin to lose, M9 can be taken down in a few seconds.

[bigun1962]

Like the old boy said, "when you get down to your pistol you could be in a world of hurt". I will take my chances with the Colt 45 any day over the 9mm. Been there done that. Got the t-shirt and very thankful for the Marines that rolled up and especially the one with the big 50.

[Goodburbon]

1911 takedowns are incredibly easy. It's one pin and requires no tools.

All I'm saying, is that compared to the M9 field strip it's rocket surgery, Not that it's hard in itself.

[jerrymrc]

All I'm saying, is that compared to the M9 field strip it's rocket surgery, Not that it's hard in itself.

I do have to say that back in the day I had many a Doc bring their 1911 to me in a box in pieces. They just could not figure out how to put it together.

This was 81-84. [Beer]

[Circuits]

They wanna live in the past, reissue nothing but 03A3s, BARs and 1911s

Not arguing with their caliber choice (which was a NATO thing), but their platform choice.

[Aloha_Shooter]

You think it is easier to take apart your M9 than a 1911? I just had to ask.

I think the Marines made an excellent decision and got a decent price given the extras that contract includes but yes, it's a lot easier to take the M9 apart for field cleaning than the 1911.

FWIW, I like the feel and natural POA of the 1911 much better than the Beretta M9 or a Glock. I like the S&W M&P series much better than either Beretta or Glock as well but it DOES feel different. Having twice the capacity doesn't mean squat when it takes three times as many rounds to do the same job.

Some of you all might want to talk to the intended customers and find their reasons for buying new 1911s before criticizing the purchase. You just might be surprised at how much sense this contract makes.

[ruthabagah]

I agree for the 45 round (well overdue), and I thing that the 1911 is probably the best design ever made and I enjoy shooting mine..... But it had it's primetime. Why using a 100 year old design with only minor change, when you can get 21st technology (striker, polymer, high cap mag, ...)?

I agree with Alex: Lets bring back the 1903!

1800$ a piece? Probably 700$ for the gun itself, and 1100$ for the daily dose of lubricant.

[Ashton]

All I've got to say is if I was in a situation where my life was at stake and I needed a gun I would want the most reliable gun. With that being said I haven't EVER had a malfunction from my XD45 Tactical and have thousands of rounds through it.

[Veritas]

I have mixed feeling about this. Have been in the military I never had a problem with the M-9 or M-11. I also love my 1911 and got rid of my Glock 19 for it. I think my only issue is capacity. An eight round mag isn't much on the battlefield. Then again the 1911 has been carried by servicemen through how many wars? I'm torn...

[AR_ART]

I'm pretty much in agreement with the majority here. I really like the way the 1911 fits in my hand, I like the way it shoots, but for combat, I'd want something with a bit more capacity.

[Mick-Boy]

USMC - 237 years of tradition unhampered by progress.

[PSS]

During the assault, six German soldiers in a trench near York charged him with fixed bayonets. York had fired all the rounds in his M1917 Enfield rifle, but drew his .45 Colt automatic pistol and shot all six soldiers before they could reach him

Magazine capacity didn't seem to limit Sgt. York.

[Scanker19]

Magazine capacity didn't seem to limit Sgt. York.

Not every fighting man is Alvin York.

[PSS]

My argument would be to raise the abilities of the fighting man then. If a man is not good with a pistol with 8 rounds then 7 rds more would make that big of a difference?

[ruthabagah]

My argument would be to raise the abilities of the fighting man then. If a man is not good with a pistol with 8 rounds then 7 rds more would make that big of a difference?

Here you are touching the age old discussion / Argument between accuracy and fire rate.

What is better: A one shot kill, or saturate your target with enough lead that you don't have to be accurate?

now please remember that in 1918 few soldiers were carrying body armor, and the average German soldier height was only 5ft 4 1/2 in, with a weight of 140 lbs. Yes, one round would do.

We are in a different era, and I am totally for an increase to 45, but the lack of mag capacity is a serious concern for me.

[PSS]

Here you are touching the age old discussion / Argument between accuracy and fire rate.

What is better: A one shot kill, or saturate your target with enough lead that you don't have to be accurate?

now please remember that in 1918 few soldiers were carrying body armor, and the average German soldier height was only 5ft 4 1/2 in, with a weight of 140 lbs. Yes, one round would do.

We are in a different era, and I am totally for an increase to 45, but the lack of mag capacity is a serious concern for me.

On top of all the facts is the fact I'm an armchair quarterback. My opinion is worth what you paid for it. I'm a fan of the 1911 and don't feel it's an inferior weapon when I'm punching holes in the target in preparation of the day it may be used in the defense of life. I find it accurate and hard hitting. Those steel plates drop and don't move when I hammer em with a 230 grain bullet.

Maybe some of the ones that have played in the sandbox can comment. But 5'4" 140 pounds seems to represent the last few combatants the US has been up against in the last 20 years. Somali, Iraqi, Afghans. Most third world countries seem to have smaller people than developed countries.

[PSS]

.
What is better: A one shot kill, or saturate your target with enough lead that you don't have to be accurate?


Another point. When I first starting shooting pistols just pointing the weapon at the target and blasting away at 25 yards was a good way to completely miss the target. A pistol is wildly inaccurate in undisciplined hands compared to a rifle in the same situation.

I would assume tho that the situation being a trained military force that the 1911 vs a pistol with more capacity argument would give the advantage to the pistol with a lot of rounds and good reliability/accuracy. It's still awesome that a classic design is found worthy of duty.

[Sharpienads]

My argument would be to raise the abilities of the fighting man then. If a man is not good with a pistol with 8 rounds then 7 rds more would make that big of a difference?

Yeah, but making room for range time and actual good training would limit the amount of time we have to do other equally if not more important training, like repeal of DADT training, bystander intervention training (what to do if you see somebody getting raped), human trafficking training, why you shouldn't leave your ID card lying around or why you shouldn't surf porn on government computers, anti-terroism training (not nearly as cool as it sounds), why black people and white people and other minorities are the same, celebrating Asian-Pacific Islander-American heritage month in March (or is it May? (yes, that is a real thing)), filling out paperwork to request to go do some normal job based training, filling out paperwork to explain what type of normal job based training your going to do, making sure you're not using a "limited use area" on a military range so that you don't disturb the habitat of an "endangered" (read: unable to adapt and useless) species, filling out paperwork after normal job based training stating what kind of normal job based training was accomplished, reading all the threads on AR-15.co, typing ridiculous replys on AR-15.co, filling out forms on a website when you need an annual physical, filling out the same exact form while getting a physical, trying to understand why the military thinks you're overweight when you're 5'8" and weigh 170lbs., wondering if you really are an alcoholic like the military says you are or live in denial because during a normal week you might have 1 or 2 alcoholic drinks 3 times during said week, filling out post-deployment health assessments online, filling out the same exact post deployment health assessment when you get a post deployment health assessment, telling doctors that you don't have emotional trauma, telling family and life consultants contracted by the military that you don't have emotional trauma, going to staff meetings, scheduling meetings, training meetings, etc. only to try to explain that if you didn't have to go to so many gd meetings maybe you could actually get some work done... the list goes on and on.

But, I would much rather have a 1911 than an M9. But if I had a choice, I would carry my M&P 45.

[DocMedic]

I'll shoot what ever is issued.

[Fist_gonzo]

Im for the .45 over the 9mm, but capacity wise there are better options. Im for something like glock 21 sf, 13+1 capacity, also wieght should be a factor. The g21sf is around 26oz vs 38oz unloaded(not sure if the marine versions will be lighter). I know my ass would stay up at night thinking of ways to shed some wieght when I was deployed, all the the cool accesories add up when doing dismounted patrols in 120+ degree weather.

[hatidua]

This quote is from another forum but is one of the more accurate assessments I've read on this topic:


It seems that suddenly everyone on the internet knows more about what the Marine special forces should be using for sidearms then the actual special forces guys themselves.

[bellavite1]

This quote is from another forum but is one of the more accurate assessments I've read on this topic:
Amen to that![Beer]

[lead_magnet]

People always think that having higher capacity equates to a requirement to spray and pray. You can still be accurate and delibrate with a pistol that has a higher capacity. If the arguement is of the "nothing will do but .45 acp" nature, then use a pistol that shoots .45 but has higher capacity.

Think of it this way(I'll stay away from 9mm for the sake of arguement)

Glock 22 (.40 cal) - One mag in the gun, two spare = 46 rounds of .40 cal

Glock 21 (.45 acp) - One mag in the gun, three spares = 53 rounds of .45

You would have to carry 5 spare magazines for the 1911 to have a similar round count (of 49, if you are using 8 round mags), it just doesn't justify itself.

Not to mention...if I may, that they could issue Glock 22's, and the 9mm conversion barrels to them, giving them more options should they have to scrounge for ammo. Might not be a big deal now, but if we were ever at war with another country that uses/issues 9mm nato ammo it might come in handy. Just sayin...

[Byte Stryke]

"but jordan, its a 100 year old design that works" So was standing in a line and shooting at each other.

Ummm... you suck at history
[ROFL1]

[Scanker19]

Ummm... you suck at history
[ROFL1]

Huh? I know for a fact Ronald Reagan led the Air force division that liberated the Polish from the British at the Battle of the Bulge.

[mcsurveyer1361]

my buddy carries this gun as a masoc guy. he loves it.

[Chief_of_Scouts]

Well, these 1911s are not your dad's, granddad's or even great-grandad's 1911. They are certainly going to be better made than the M1911 I was issued back in the 1980s.

I remember the excitement and controversy caused by swapping out our old pistols for the M9 Beretta. It seemed that many of the troops were pleasantly surprised by the accuracy and fewer magazine changes. We were also less than happy with the excessively high rate of failures due to the cheap magazines we were issued in the early days.

I have carried and own both .45 ACP and 9mm. I am currently carrying a Glock 19 (9mm) in a combat zone. Based on my experience, I think that the Glock 9mm is my favorite weapon for capacity, reliability and accuracy. I also agree with the statements others have made; my pistol is a backup to my rifle.

As one wise man said; Show your .45 to your friends, but show your 9mm to your enemies.

[Flatline]

This quote is from another forum but is one of the more accurate assessments I've read on this topic:

One of the wisest statements here.

When it comes down to it I'm sure the marines didn't just decide on the 1911 because it looked pretty.

[Byte Stryke]

$-$

Could have got the job done with less than $1,900 a pop. Government doesn't need to waste money unnecessarily, including mil.

And ya, if I had a choice I'd want a $2,000 gun instead of a $400 one, but that doesn't make it the right choice!

I think you missed the part where the cost included support, parts, training etc and we were unsure of the actual per unit costs.

given the logistics of civilian support these days, I wouldn't be at all surprised if it broke out to be a $500 weapon and $1400 in training, parts and support. For example, did you know that Contracting companies have to pay hundreds for each CAC card their employees hold...even as part of their job requirement.

So in addition to finding trainers and armorers, paying for their BCI/Investigations for clearances, there is a running cost with the government.


just an FYI

[Chad4000]

People always think that having higher capacity equates to a requirement to spray and pray. You can still be accurate and delibrate with a pistol that has a higher capacity. If the arguement is of the "nothing will do but .45 acp" nature, then use a pistol that shoots .45 but has higher capacity.

Think of it this way(I'll stay away from 9mm for the sake of arguement)

Glock 22 (.40 cal) - One mag in the gun, two spare = 46 rounds of .40 cal

Glock 21 (.45 acp) - One mag in the gun, three spares = 53 rounds of .45

You would have to carry 5 spare magazines for the 1911 to have a similar round count (of 49, if you are using 8 round mags), it just doesn't justify itself.

Not to mention...if I may, that they could issue Glock 22's, and the 9mm conversion barrels to them, giving them more options should they have to scrounge for ammo. Might not be a big deal now, but if we were ever at war with another country that uses/issues 9mm nato ammo it might come in handy. Just sayin...

totally agree here...

[Chad4000]

This quote is from another forum but is one of the more accurate assessments I've read on this topic:


do we know that it was the actual Special forces guys that made the call? Im sure that one or two high level guys were consulted, but normally doesnt thing this go to polictians who decide what's best for the guys on the ground?

shit,, if they talked to chris kyle, and he said 1911... then hell yeah....

I just get the impression that they dont actually talk to the guys on the ground much about this sort of thing.

[Chad4000]

another question on the topic. does anybody have stats on what the special forces guys actually carry. I dont know what Im talking about here, but shouldnt they be allowed to choose whatever they want (within reason)? or are even seals, and recon guys required to carry standard issued sidearms?

i can see requiring normal enlisted guys (up to a certain rank or something??) to carry all the same stuff.

[lifeon2]

I'm gonna go with the fact that there are better platforms out there and I'm pretty sure the guys on the ground had little to nothing to do with the choice.

[C Ward]

MARSOC has been running 1911's pretty much from their inception . These pistols are to replace the worn out ones that cant be rebuilt cost effectively any more .

[Wiggity]

The .45 ACP. The god-stopper. Makes the enemy implode on impact simply because it starts with a 4. The elephant hunter's 1st choice in back up.

It has a 7 round capacity because that is all you need in any situation ever. If you might possibly need more, you deserve to die because you suck at life. Your enemies will tremble at the size of the barrel and run away at the beauty of the 1911.


I think this is why the military chose this instrument of death.

[Sharpienads]

another question on the topic. does anybody have stats on what the special forces guys actually carry. I dont know what Im talking about here, but shouldnt they be allowed to choose whatever they want (within reason)? or are even seals, and recon guys required to carry standard issued sidearms?

i can see requiring normal enlisted guys (up to a certain rank or something??) to carry all the same stuff.

I've seen all kinds of secondary weapons, including Glocks, Sigs, 1911s... It might be different depending on the unit.

[spyder]

From the guys I have known (recon, seals), they carried what they wanted. These were not Deagles or anything like that, one carried a sig, a few carried Hk's, and others carried (don't remember, didn't care).

[Chad4000]

^^ yeah thats what I was thinking.... They might as well carey whatever they want...

[hatidua]

MARSOC has been running 1911's pretty much from their inception . These pistols are to replace the worn out ones that cant be rebuilt cost effectively any more .

This thread is long and deals as much with people wanting to recreate various versions of said pistol. That said, it shows that the people this new Colt is intended for are hardly transitioning to a new platform:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_49/86667_The_MEU_SOC___45__ICQB__and_M45_Close_Quarte rs_Combat_Pistol___Updates_to_OP.html

[spyder]

Found this little thing....

The Marines recently awarded Colt with a contract to supply new 1911s for use with the Marine Corps Special Operations Command (MARSOC) units, and it is apparent that of the handguns tested, a majority of them incurred critical damage to their frames and slides as well as other parts.
You can read more here...
http://www.guns.com/marines-colt-rail-gun-failures-damage-cracked-frames-slides-spring-plugs-10420.html

[RonMexico]

another question on the topic. does anybody have stats on what the special forces guys actually carry. I dont know what Im talking about here, but shouldnt they be allowed to choose whatever they want (within reason)? or are even seals, and recon guys required to carry standard issued sidearms?

i can see requiring normal enlisted guys (up to a certain rank or something??) to carry all the same stuff.

At 4th Force we gave our 1911 to MARSOC, so we had supressor ready m9. MARSOC also uses g19 for concealed carry.
Current unit uses supressor ready m9 and g19.
Team leader will dictate what type of firearm individuals will carry but everyone carried the same pistol to standardize ammo/mag