View Full Version : Woods Gun
Colorado Osprey
08-06-2012, 05:23
22 with 100 round box of ammo. Since the chances of being attacked by any animal is so low in Colorado protection, except maybe from a rabid raccoon, it should almost not even be a consideration.
Colorado's small black bears are usually only problem is you haven't prepared your camp/clothing/cooking to keep bears away. A small can of OC (pepper spray) does wonders to drive them off.
Food to keep up your spirits while lost will be the primary use of a gun. Food to sustain you is not needed either unless you are lost for almost 2 weeks. Water is probably a better thing to pack rather than a gun... but I carry both.
Now to mix things up. Should you carry something bigger to protect yourself from big varmints? You know the kind you hear about of the news that are just crazy? There once was a FBI investigation that showed that 90% of hunting accidents where people were shot while hunting were not accidents at all. It's not the bears you should worry about.
I too struggled with the same thing. I have taken everything from 44 mag handguns to rimfire rifles and handguns and everything in between.
While a long arm makes the most sense to me (maybe a lever action in 357 mag?) my current go-to piece is my Springfield XD in 45 ACP.
Why the 45 ACP?
My main fear of predators is of the two-legged variety. At up-close distances I don't feel undergunned with the 45. If I had to take small game I could probably manage to do so as well. I don't fear an attack from a mountain lion or a black bear but if push came to shove having 14 rounds of 45 caliber, 230 grain ammunition available does provide me with a sense of comfort. Finally, the pistol packs and carries easier than any rifle.
Others may disagree with me, but you did ask for opinions, right? [Beer]
In the forest or in the city, it doesn't change my choice. I grab my EDC rig. 16rds of 9mm plus an extra mag.
I agree with Osprey about Colorado's wildlife. The predators here are not out hunting people... they run away before you know they're around 9+ times out of 10. Curiousity is what makes their presence known most of the time. Bears smell your camp food and come'a'lookin. Shoot one in to the ground if you must...but don't shoot the bear just because he's nosing around the camp site. If you're being attacked, then of course, I'm just saying try to scare them off first. A .22lr will make a loud enough noise to send them running too, so if you're thinking you might need to hunt small game and will need a lot of shots, carry a .22lr. You should be all set.
osok-308
08-06-2012, 09:18
Why not go with a shotgun? I mean you can have those different loads, anything from birdshot to buckshot and slugs? I mean, You can go pretty light on the shot for smaller animals, slugs can take deer if need be, and I would feel comfortable against a mountain lion with slugs (comfortable is probably the wrong word) There are also combo rifle/shotguns, able to take some birds, but still have a caliber like .30-30. Just my $.02.
How about a full size .45 ACP with a .22LR slide conversion? I have the EAA Witness with the slide conversion and it would give you the best of both worlds.
Great-Kazoo
08-06-2012, 10:54
How about a full size .45 ACP with a .22LR slide conversion? I have the EAA Witness with the slide conversion and it would give you the best of both worlds.
To much shit to not only carry but keep track of. 1 gun that you feel comfortable with, i like a .357/38 lever action, might even consider the mare's leg in .357 or 44 mag. Although if i was "lost" in the woods, i'd pull a bullet then start small signal fire.
As far as food & water you would be surprised how long you could go if necessary without either. Test yourself one weekend and see how long you could go without either. I'm not saying you're out cutting the grass, doing wind sprints etc, just kick back and see what you can do. I've done 5, the 5th being real tough, 3-4 days no problem.
I've done 5, the 5th being real tough, 3-4 days no problem.
wow 5 days with no food and water jim your a beast!
what about an ar with a .22 conversion that way you have power to kill big stuff and the lil .22 for little stuff
LOL come on guys, the OP is asking about hiking and back country camping, not preplanned long-term survival in the woods. This would imply that lightweight is a fundamental requirement. No one carries a shotgun or combo gun when they go hiking, (maybe ATV'ing) and folks certainly don't fill their day packs with sundry shotgun loads.
I stick by my earlier answer that a smaller load like 9mm is sufficient for this scenario without burdening oneself with a bunch of unnecessary weight. The last thing I'm taking when I go on a hike or couple day backpacking trudge is a shotgun. If we were in Alaska, this would be a different conversation. :)
I agree with just about everything Sawin said. Seems he and I have the same ideas. The only difference is my preferred caliber is .45 and he favors the 9mm. But, that's just personal preference. [Beer]
Whistler
08-06-2012, 13:22
Wheel gun in .357, pack a few .38 and shot for the snakes & smaller stuff.
Wheel gun in .357, pack a few .38 and shot for the snakes & smaller stuff.
That's a very good option. [Beer]
wrestler034
08-06-2012, 16:16
Like Sawin I pack my EDC. It is a little different though... I carry a Glock 29sf... nothing compares to the fire power it packs. 10+1 of 10mm ammo that makes as much energy as a 41 mag (~700lb/ft+). Does not get any better than that in a handgun imho.
Like Sawin I pack my EDC. It is a little different though... I carry a Glock 29sf... nothing compares to the fire power it packs. 10+1 of 10mm ammo that makes as much energy as a 41 mag (~700lb/ft+). Does not get any better than that in a handgun imho.
Not to bash your 10mm, but it won't even come close to a hot .41 mag load. Buffalo Bore lists a few 10mm loads at just over 700 ft. lbs. of energy. They also list several .41 mag loads at over 1,000 ft. lbs. of energy.
Don't get me wrong, the 10mm is one of my favorite semi-auto cartridges and is an excellent option for a "woods gun". But to compare it to the .41 mag is unrealistic.
[Beer]
wrestler034
08-06-2012, 17:14
No, it is not a "hot" 41 mag. In its hottest form the 10mm is similar to a mild 41 mag. I would much rather have 11 rounds of mild(If 700 lb/ft can be called that) that I can easily control in rapid fire. YMMV.
Great-Kazoo
08-06-2012, 17:27
wow 5 days with no food and water jim your a beast!
what about an ar with a .22 conversion that way you have power to kill big stuff and the lil .22 for little stuff
Yeah it was a very interesting experience.
When we hike in to camp!
I carry a 1911 with 2 extra mags, and have an AR-7 22lr in my pack.
-21 rds. of 45
-2 10 rd. mags tuck away in the rifle, I also carry 75 rds. in an old pill bottle.
The .45 is definitely for 2 and 4 legged critters!
Just my .02[Tooth]
Zombie Steve
08-06-2012, 18:29
Wheel gun in .357, pack a few .38 and shot for the snakes & smaller stuff.
This is what I typically do... minus the .38's.
No, it is not a "hot" 41 mag. In its hottest form the 10mm is similar to a mild 41 mag. I would much rather have 11 rounds of mild(If 700 lb/ft can be called that) that I can easily control in rapid fire. YMMV.
I wasn't knocking your choice. Like I said, the 10mm is one of my favorite rounds. Too bad the large Glocks just don't suit me with my smaller hands. When (or if) Springfield chambers their XD for it I will probably make that my "go to" gun.
There is just a common misconception that the 10mm is the balistic equal to anything you can get in a .41 mag. Just like to correct that misconception if I get the chance. [Awesom]
BushMasterBoy
08-06-2012, 19:46
If you are going to have to shoot your food, I feel there is only one choice. My choice would be a breakdown .22LR rifle. Rabbit, squirrel, birds etc. are hard to hit with a handgun, especially when they are moving. You shoot a 10mm at a squirrel and miss, I doubt you get another shot. Pick a AR7, Marlin Papoose or breakdown 10/22. Don't starve yourself with a combat pistol...
yardsells
08-06-2012, 20:43
There is just a common misconception that the 10mm is the balistic equal to anything you can get in a .41 mag. Just like to correct that misconception if I get the chance. [Awesom]
I agree.
I'm a .41 guy with a 10 and 40. I hear that 10mm / .41 comparison a bunch and I always chuckle.
LOL come on guys, the OP is asking about hiking and back country camping, not preplanned long-term survival in the woods. This would imply that lightweight is a fundamental requirement. No one carries a shotgun or combo gun when they go hiking, (maybe ATV'ing) and folks certainly don't fill their day packs with sundry shotgun loads.
I stick by my earlier answer that a smaller load like 9mm is sufficient for this scenario without burdening oneself with a bunch of unnecessary weight. The last thing I'm taking when I go on a hike or couple day backpacking trudge is a shotgun. If we were in Alaska, this would be a different conversation. :)
man im from jersey id feel undergunned in the woods out here with just my ar im thinking .308 battle rifle at least[Beer]
http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/ppppp_desktop_rossi_ranch_hand-tfb.jpg
Rossi Ranch Hand .357/.38 Special. Stock photo of course- I don't have any pics of mine.
I love this gun. Sweet shooter...
Consider a 38 spl. In a survival mode its not to hot to shoot small game and with a decent cast SWC it will kill large game.
If your trying to live off the land etc. and legal issues are not important a 38 will work for most needs.
A alloy model 638 weighs less about a pound. a model 60 with a three/four inch barrel would be almost ideal.
Yes you can shoot .357 in the newer guns. If you think your going to swap out rounds while chasing rabbits I want to watch.
Great-Kazoo
08-07-2012, 02:51
I suggested a .357/.38 lever before. I'm getting ready to load some .357 see how it does in my lever.
Whistler
08-07-2012, 07:10
Consider a 38 spl. In a survival mode its not to hot to shoot small game and with a decent cast SWC it will kill large game.
If your trying to live off the land etc. and legal issues are not important a 38 will work for most needs.
A alloy model 638 weighs less about a pound. a model 60 with a three/four inch barrel would be almost ideal.
Yes you can shoot .357 in the newer guns. If you think your going to swap out rounds while chasing rabbits I want to watch.
In my experience SWC (semi-wad cutters) are a low power round designed for target shooting. It will expand very little and typically has nominal velocity to begin with. There are higher velocity SWC available (around 1100FPS) however due to limited expansion they would not be my first choice for large game.
Federal 125gr JHP in S&W 686 4":
.38 = 923 FPS
.357 = 1436 FPS
A .357 (except the new aluminum frame .38s) weighs about the same as a comparable .38 and are roughly the same size. You should not shoot a .357 in a .38, even it it could stand the much higher pressures the .357 COAL is greater (1.550" vs 1.590)" and will usually prevent the cylinder from rotating in a properly functioning revolver. Example 125gr JHP sample load data - .38=15600 CUP vs .357=41200 CUP. Typically if a .38 revolver will chamber a .357 it is either substantially worn or has very loose tolerances, e.g.; cylinder gap. The disadvantages of a .357 over .38 are primarily recoil and muzzle flash. There may be a slight accuracy loss when using .38 in a .357 due to the slight gap between the bullet and the forcing cone as well as the lower velocity.
If you know what you put in it (and direction of rotation) doesn't take a lot of time to pull the hammer back partially and rotate the cylinder a couple rounds.
Or you could practice until you can do this (see :31 sec mark). [Coffee]
GWSvjgNOJyo
I vote 357 as well. I usually shoot 158 grain WFN bullets hand cast with love, in 38 special cases. I do load these to 38+P levels. Penetrates old rock hard 4x4's with ease. Won't do 8 inchs but close. Wide Flat Nose explodes milk jugs of water like no 38 should. I'm confident in the power.
Gun is a Smith&Wesson 2.5 inch 686+ 7 shot. This gun ammo combo makes head shots on rabbits possible out to 20 yards. Probably the most accurate pistol I've ever owned. Doesn't seem to mind the jump.
Everyone has their taste, and this works for me. I tried my 1911 with a rail one year and it let you know it was there. Felt like a boat anchor by the time we got back to camp. Was the last trip out of camp for that gun.
Great-Kazoo
08-07-2012, 10:32
man im from jersey id feel undergunned in the woods out here with just my ar im thinking .308 battle rifle at least[Beer]
You only have 15 rounds being from joisey, would you be able to hit anything? Those chipmunks and bluejays are very territorial.
Whistler
08-07-2012, 12:27
Man that video is nuts. I doubt that I would ever get to that level, but here's to tryin'[Beer]
I have shot several 38's and a couple .357's over the last few years, and I have to say that the new light weight ones kick my ass. Normally shooting .45 or 9mm from my semi-autos I can shoot all day, but I shot one of those Ruger LCR in .357 and I was done after 20 rounds. My wrist hurt and it felt like my thumb was going to fall off. And I know what that feels like being that I nearly tore it off in 2008 and needed 2 surgeries, 6 pins and a plate to hold it all together. I would like a solid 4" or better steel frame gun if I am going to be at all accurate and reliable with it.
I think if I practiced for 10 years or so I still couldn't load that fast in my dreams.
What i usually carry is my springfield xd 45 acp with 2 extra mags in a backpack. I mainly carry it just in case something happens and i do get lost i can fire shots off to alert people to my location. I also carry bear mace, a couple good knives, survival kit, and something to purify water. I carry the 45 acp just in case in a rare situation something does happen and i do use it even though i probably could only get a couple rounds off if something charges me it should do the trick. The trick if you do get lost is to have a good survival kit and most important know how to use it. I know this may be off topic but at minimum make sure you have a whistle, 3 different ways to start a fire) i usually carry 2 lighters, a bunch of strike anywhere matches, magnesium fire starter, little coleman fire starter sticks, compass usually 2, 100 feet of para cord, a couple splace blankets, fish hooks and line, 2 big black trash bags, gps(learn to navigate w/out it and use it as a last resort dont soleyon them I've had to look for lost people and when found them they said their gps broke and they had no clue where to go), flashlight, enough food to last me a couple days( nothing fancy like a few cans of tuna), extra batteries for everything i have, TP and baby wipes probably most important unless you want swamp ass, and a couple of glow sticks. I use a medium size ziplock and i can fit everything in it. Hiking in the back country as far as animal attacks isnt as near as dangerous as city folk think. Most problems are man made. If i remember correctly from my survival class a person can live 2 hours w/out shelter 2 days w/out water, and 2 weeks without food ( granted conditions do apply to this). But anyways back to the main question i carry a 45 acp. If you have any questions pm me.
In my 45 i switch from my home defense loads to FMJ's that i load up for better penetration. Glad you are ok after your encounter, I have seen many bears in the woods but a long time since i have seen one with a cub. Just glad my fiance hasnt seen one with me because she is starting to get into hunting/ hiking in the back country with me. I think one hand would be holding her to keep her from running and the other one would be on my gun just in case the bear charges...
The Civil War era Cap and Ball guns were roughly the power of lower end 38 spl. loads Many gun fighters were excellent killers with such guns.
A lead SWC will do fine. Elmer Kieth who helped develop the 44 REM MAG ws a SWC advocate.
Whistler
08-08-2012, 08:55
The Civil War era Cap and Ball guns were roughly the power of lower end 38 spl. loads Many gun fighters were excellent killers with such guns.
A lead SWC will do fine. Elmer Kieth who helped develop the 44 REM MAG ws a SWC advocate.
No argument with either statement except we're discussing a pack gun not gunfights and 44 mag wasn't in the mix. I'd rather have my semi-auto if it's a gun fight.
Just a couple of thoughts:
If a 4" .38 and a 4" .357 are roughly the same size/weight why not allow myself the option of substantially greater range & penetration with the .357 considering I could shoot any of the available .38 rounds also?
I don't think many folks carry SWC for SD despite being reasonably effective in a large caliber but I agree a hole is a hole.
The .38/.357 debate is well covered even here (http://www.ar-15.co/forums/showthread.php?t=4330) not likely much I could add.
Make you a deal; I'll let you watch me swap rounds chasing rabbits if you let me watch you go against a bear with .38 wadcutters. [Beer]
I get to choose the bear. Ever see what a SWC does to a stuffed Panda?
Whistler
08-08-2012, 09:47
I get to choose the bear. Ever see what a SWC does to a stuffed Panda?
[ROFL1]
Whistler
08-08-2012, 13:15
I should have been paying more attention. It was a big patch of those little red berries that the bears like. Red Currant is what I think they are, but anyway as I was walking towards the patch I thought that I heard something like three times but I just figured it was squirrels or something running around and I wanted to make time getting up the valley. Had I stopped and paid attention I would have seen the cub because it was not in that much cover. In the end it turns out it is a bad idea to scare a bear cub.
I hear what you guys are saying about the .357 / 38 argument, but that is settled for me because if I buy the .357 I have both. [Beer]
How much ammo do you guys with .357's carry? I think that 12 rounds of .357 and maybe 20 .38 special would be sufficient to get out of most Colorado survival situations and it would not be that heavy.
Besides a full cylinder maybe 3-4 speed loaders should be more than adequate even with starting a couple fires or signaling.
Test yourself one weekend and see how long you could go without either. I'm not saying you're out cutting the grass, doing wind sprints etc, just kick back and see what you can do. I've done 5, the 5th being real tough, 3-4 days no problem.
Man, talk about not having anything better to do. LOL! [LOL]
Wheel gun in .357, pack a few .38 and shot for the snakes & smaller stuff.
This.
My 3" Smith M60 is the ultimate in versatility, convenience and practicality for me when hunting elk around the ranch.
That said, for backpacking excursions into the high country, lighter is better. I'll usually carry a Diamondback DB380 with CorBons or my Kahr P9.
DavieD55
08-17-2012, 08:23
I will say a 12 Gauge with an assortment of slugs, buckshot, and 71/2s. Along with a .357 mag.
dwalker460
08-17-2012, 23:45
I am a little confused by the specific need-
If you are talking about a weapon to have in a survival kit in the case you are daypacking and somehow get lost for several days, then I actually would go with either a .22 pistol along the lines of a Ruger MK2/browning Buckmark and similar that can signal, take small game and would be effective against 2-legged varmits.
If we are talking what to take on a multi-day backpack trip out into the hinterlands- I would personally take a sidearm in .45acp, and a lightweight rifle- in my case these days that would be an AR, but I used to hike with a Spanish Mauser carbine in .308. Yeah, I know about ultralight backpacking stuff, but if I am going to purposefully be out in the wild for more than a day or two then I am bringing some firepower along. The qualifications are along the lines of relatively short- I hate snagging on every bush I pass, lightweight- Because I am the one carrying it, and preferrably in a caliber capable of taking medium sized game at a reasonable range. There are a LOT of guns that suit the need- the camp carbines from Marlin in 9mm and .45, various lever action rifles in .44mag, 45LC, .357MAG, .30/30, bolt carbines in any caliber you can think of, the RUGER carbines in .44mag, .223, etc., and one of my old favorites but just horrible to find these days, the M1 Carbine in .30 carbine, excellent "woods gun" stuff there. As mentioned above, the AR platform in 5.56 or .300AAC either one would fit the bill, especially in CAR format with a 16" pencil barrel and probably even a composite lower. A 16" pencil barrel with liteweight components and a composite lower would be super light, pack lots of firepower, and will go bang when you pull the trigger. Very compact and easily lashed to a backpack or broken down to fit inside one, there is a lot of flexibility there.
encorehunter
08-18-2012, 06:05
What about a single six with a 22lr and 22mag cylinder. It is easy to carry a box of each and have the little extra power with very little weight issue. Your not going to stop a charging bear, but a 22 mag will easily work on 2 legged predators. I like the 38/357, but it does add considerable weight.
A charging bear will take a LOT to stop. Last year I shot a bear with a 45-70 at about 10 yards, and he was not charging. It still took 3 shots in the vitals to put him down.
I usually carry my Colt .22 pistol when backpacking. It is lightweight and easy to carry for long distances. The biggest things I have shot with it was a bobcat and a coyote, both dropped the first shot.
Maybe look into a PMR-30 if you can find one. I don't know how reliable they are, but 30 rounds of 22 mag should make about anything want to change location.
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