View Full Version : Are loaded AR Pistols legal in vehicle in CO?
Singlestack
08-25-2012, 11:12
I understand that loaded handguns in a vehicle are legal in CO (I'm a CHP holder), but that loaded rifles are not. Since an AR pistol is not a rifle, would it be legal in CO to have a loaded AR pistol in a vehicle?
Thanks,
Singlestack
I am sure any rifle or shotgun cannot be chambered in the vehicle but having a loaded mag in I am not positive. In Denver your rifle cannot have any mag that holds 21+ rounds.
Great-Kazoo
08-25-2012, 11:37
A pistol is a pistol, is a pistol. Does not matter, to us what it looks like. To JQ public that's another story. The only issue would be if the receiver did not have the PISTOL stamping on it. So if is says Pistol then yes legal. No markings other than caliber and mfg info GFL.
Sorry I missed where you said AR Pistol. I must not be awake yet. I want to say since it is an AR Pistol and is classified as a pistol you could even possible CC it. I am not for sure on this one and hopefully someone here comes along soon that knows for sure.
10mm-man
08-25-2012, 11:39
The only issue would be if the receiver did not have the PISTOL stamping on it. So if is says Pistol then yes legal. No markings other than caliber and mfg info GFL.
Are you sure about this? Could you provide some back up on it? I have several pistols (AR) w/ no markings and I always have it loaded and ready in the car. I have not found anything that says it must be marked "pistol" and if you have, I would like to see it. Want to be legal.....[Beer]
Great-Kazoo
08-25-2012, 13:15
Are you sure about this? Could you provide some back up on it? I have several pistols (AR) w/ no markings and I always have it loaded and ready in the car. I have not found anything that says it must be marked "pistol" and if you have, I would like to see it. Want to be legal.....[Beer]
I mentioned it for a possible LE encounter. Their full knowledge of what is what when it comes to guns is marginal to say the least. There is nothing that says PISTOL marked is the only acceptable config, it's interpretation by the LE on site. AND.......... we know what that means. ask 5 LE's the same question, you get 6 answers. We're a perfect example, the question was asked and no one can site specific C.R.S pertaining to anything.
BuffCyclist
08-25-2012, 14:58
I've got nothing to add other than the hilarious mental image I have of someone concealed carrying an AR15 pistol... [LOL]
The bigger question would be, where would someone get a holster for one?
sellersm
08-25-2012, 15:13
The bigger question would be, where would someone get a holster for one?
Hanging by a sling under a big overcoat of some kind? [Tooth]
A Glock isn't required to say "pistol" on it, why would any other piece of metal/plastic/composite have to?
Now, granted, it would be easier to claim it as a pistol to a firearms noob.
Great-Kazoo
08-25-2012, 15:24
A Glock isn't required to say "pistol" on it, why would any other piece of metal/plastic/composite have to?
Now, granted, it would be easier to claim it as a pistol to a firearms noob.
http://www.tacticalmachining.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/0/10163c_600x600_5.jpg
Some mfg put the pistol designation on the receiver.
Yes Glock does not say Pistol on it However to the lay person it is clearly a Hand Gun. The AR or for that matter AK (Draco) if displayed to the common person and say 30-50% of LE personal screams anything BUT a pistol.
10mm-man
08-25-2012, 16:50
I mentioned it for a possible LE encounter. Their full knowledge of what is what when it comes to guns is marginal to say the least. There is nothing that says PISTOL marked is the only acceptable config, it's interpretation by the LE on site. AND.......... we know what that means. ask 5 LE's the same question, you get 6 answers. We're a perfect example, the question was asked and no one can site specific C.R.S pertaining to anything.
Ok, gotcha![Beer] I understand what you are saying.........
It's also not a CRS issue, it is more of a Fed law in particular BATFE. I don't believe CRS gives a definition of a Handgun, does it? I am only aware of the ATF definition of it. Unless of course you are referring to the original question of it being able to be loaded, which I think you are.
10mm-man
08-25-2012, 16:57
http://www.tacticalmachining.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/0/10163c_600x600_5.jpg
Some mfg put the pistol designation on the receiver.
Yes Glock does not say Pistol on it However to the lay person it is clearly a Hand Gun. The AR or for that matter AK (Draco) if displayed to the common person and say 30-50% of LE personal screams anything BUT a pistol.
I believe that when it is marked "pistol" this is the only acceptable configuration. Correct? Thus an FFL must transfer it as a "Pistol" but if it isn't marked than it can be transferred as a rifle and configured and built in any capacity.
I still 100% don't understand these rules and laws.... Time to break out the handbook I guess....
I believe that when it is marked "pistol" this is the only acceptable configuration. Correct? Thus an FFL must transfer it as a "Pistol" but if it isn't marked than it can be transferred as a rifle and configured and built in any capacity.
I still 100% don't understand these rules and laws.... Time to break out the handbook I guess....
Pistols can be turned into rifles but rifles cannot be turned into pistols
10mm-man
08-25-2012, 17:18
Pistols can be turned into rifles but rifles cannot be turned into pistols
Yes, while that is true; an AR lower is logged as a rifle and it can be configured as either.........
Circuits
08-25-2012, 17:21
I believe that when it is marked "pistol" this is the only acceptable configuration. Correct? Thus an FFL must transfer it as a "Pistol" but if it isn't marked than it can be transferred as a rifle and configured and built in any capacity.
I still 100% don't understand these rules and laws.... Time to break out the handbook I guess....
No. It doesn't matter what the receiver says. It could say "nucular bom", etc.
If it's in a pistol configuration (one grip, no stock, no 2nd forward grip, has a rifled barrel) then it transfers as a pistol
If it's in a rifle configuration (stock, rifled barrel) it transfers as a rifle
If it's a lower-only, it transfers as "other", because to be a rifle it has to have both a stock and a rifled barrel.
You can take a lower marked "pistol" and build a rifle out of it, if you want. Or you can build a pistol.
The fun part starts with how it was initially assembled: If you bought or assembled it as a pistol, you can then put a long barrel and a stock on it, and make it into a rifle. Then later take the stock off, and make it back into a pistol again. However, if you bought or assembled it as a rifle, first, then you could not legally take the stock off and make it into a pistol. Ain't ATF rulings fun?
Circuits
08-25-2012, 17:24
Yes, while that is true; an AR lower is logged as a rifle and it can be configured as either.........
Sorry man, but no. A lower is an "other" You really need to review your handbooks.
Yes, while that is true; an AR lower is logged as a rifle and it can be configured as either.........
Your an sot and ffl. So I know you know your stuff but I had always been told a lower could be registered as a rifle a pistol or other and if it was sold as a rifle initially it couldn't be turned into a pistol.....am I totally wrong here???
Great-Kazoo
08-25-2012, 17:36
Your an sot and ffl. So I know you know your stuff but I had always been told a lower could be registered as a rifle a pistol or other and if it was sold as a rifle initially it couldn't be turned into a pistol.....am I totally wrong here???
ALRIGHT, ALRIGH,T ENOUGH ALREADY Who the $%^& keeps coming up with this REGISTERED SHIT??????????????????
There is no gun registration in CO Not now, Ti the best of my knowledge (which isn;t saying much) Never has been. UNLESS YOU HAVE A NFA item. Then it is documented, registered what ever the $%^& with the atfE.
The only thing that happens when you buy a gun and do a 4473 is the ffl calls CBI gives name DOB, SSN (if written) CODL Long Gun. Hand Gun, OTHER
No serial number name, of gun anything.
Sorry COFI seeing registered, to me, is like some (fanatics) fliping out over the word CLIP, after the op was informed they are MAGAZINES!!!!!
I'm sure you meant something else when you wrote registered.
Back on track. Hand gun in to a long gun LEGAL. It can also be returned to its orig config LEGAL
Long gun in to a pistol ILLEGAL.....UNLESS you do a Form 1 and wait for approval from the atfE
Other for a stripped receiver?? I have seen ffl's write it as long gun, pistol or other.
AND As i posted before a pistol is a pistol etc. The knowledge or lack of by an LE on scene is what can throw a wrench in to your legally carried,LOADED as they should be, CCW AR PISTOL. whether it says Pistol on the receiver or Not.
Circuits
08-25-2012, 19:03
Other for a stripped receiver?? I have seen ffl's write it as long gun, pistol or other.
ATF has sent every FFL several open letters on this subject. An FFL who transfers a receiver as anything but "OTHER" is doing it wrong, and has been for years. A receiver without a barrel is not a handgun and not a rifle, whether it has a stock on it or not.
Circuits
08-25-2012, 19:08
Your an sot and ffl. So I know you know your stuff but I had always been told a lower could be registered as a rifle a pistol or other and if it was sold as a rifle initially it couldn't be turned into a pistol.....am I totally wrong here???
You have the concept correct, but are completely wrong about "sold as".
A receiver cannot be sold "as a pistol" or "as a rifle". It is neither until it has been assembled.
If it is built into a rifle, it cannot later be made into a pistol, because ATF considers any weapon "made from a rifle" to still be a rifle, even if you've taken the stock off.
If it is built into a pistol, it can later be made into a pistol "configured" as a rifle, and return to its original pistol configuration later.
Singlestack
08-25-2012, 19:37
Thanks for all the responses, guys - that was a good education on AR lowers and form 4473. Back to my original question: it sounds like in CO I can legally have a loaded and chambered AR pistol in my vehicle. Does anyone know if this is legal in Denver, as well?
Thanks,
Singlestack
Great-Kazoo
08-25-2012, 20:05
Thanks for all the responses, guys - that was a good education on AR lowers and form 4473. Back to my original question: it sounds like in CO I can legally have a loaded and chambered AR pistol in my vehicle. Does anyone know if this is legal in Denver, as well?
Thanks,
Singlestack
Again a pistol is a pistol. We agree it's a pistol and providing you are not a resident of the city & cty of denver you are good to go, with of course a CCW:)
I an understanding that a stripped lower can be built into either pistol or rifle. What I am confused on how can it be legal to build a pistol and configure it as a rifle later turning it back to a pistol but illegal to turn a built rifle into a pistol. Aren't they basically doing the same thing but in reverse order? How would anyone even know? Sorry if I missed this earlier in the replies but I am just curious. Is it legal and illegal in the above only if you buy it as a complete pistol or rifle or if you build it one way yourself as well?
Sorry to sway off the OP's original question but since we were on this topic I thought I'd jump in.
Great-Kazoo
08-25-2012, 21:25
I an understanding that a stripped lower can be built into either pistol or rifle. What I am confused on how can it be legal to build a pistol and configure it as a rifle later turning it back to a pistol but illegal to turn a built rifle into a pistol. Aren't they basically doing the same thing but in reverse order? How would anyone even know? Sorry if I missed this earlier in the replies but I am just curious. Is it legal and illegal in the above only if you buy it as a complete pistol or rifle or if you build it one way yourself as well?
Sorry to sway off the OP's original question but since we were on this topic I thought I'd jump in.
NFA section for info. If you make it shorter than MIN OAL you have now violated NFA act for illegal modification. How the feds came to any conclusion is beyond my pay grade.
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf
As for knowing,
I will say from personal experience the "average" street cop couldn't tell an SBR from a PBR. Having shot with a moderate amount of LE's Unless you mention , "Yeah this is my 10" SBR" Really what's the difference? Thats how the majority of conversations go.
spqrzilla
08-25-2012, 21:51
I an understanding that a stripped lower can be built into either pistol or rifle. What I am confused on how can it be legal to build a pistol and configure it as a rifle later turning it back to a pistol but illegal to turn a built rifle into a pistol. Aren't they basically doing the same thing but in reverse order? How would anyone even know? Sorry if I missed this earlier in the replies but I am just curious. Is it legal and illegal in the above only if you buy it as a complete pistol or rifle or if you build it one way yourself as well?
Sorry to sway off the OP's original question but since we were on this topic I thought I'd jump in.
Does not matter if it makes sense, its the law. The NFA has a lot of provisions that make no sense. Does not matter.
Pistol --> Rifle --> Pistol = legal
Rifle --> Pistol = Federal felony
The Mare's leg "pistols" being sold are an example. Cut down a lever action rifle to one is a Federal felony. Build one from a scratch set of parts and receiver never assembled before, legal.
Does not matter if it makes sense, is the NFA of 1934.
quondom fremd
08-25-2012, 22:24
Make sure that if you are carrying an AR pistol loaded, that it has a barrel not exceeding 12 inches, as stated in (C.R.S. 18-12-101(1)(e.5)), I think that a barrel longer than 12 inches means it's classified as a class 1 firearm.
Edit: Also, I think that federally speaking, the pistol must have an overall length less than 26 inches
10mm-man
08-25-2012, 22:45
Sorry man, but no. A lower is an "other" You really need to review your handbooks.
I am glad you said something, I had a few lowers transferred and the FFL at the time did em as rifle lowers. I said I thought they were supposed be done as other and he said no. I didn't argue it was his books but now I am going to have to break out the handbooks and read![Beer]
Your an sot and ffl. So I know you know your stuff but I had always been told a lower could be registered as a rifle a pistol or other and if it was sold as a rifle initially it couldn't be turned into a pistol.....am I totally wrong here???
I sometimes think I know my stuff until I bought a dozen lowers and the FFL transferred them as a rifle. I need to read the handbooks prob more than anyone else. Then again I will not be transferring anything for a while, The little I will be transferring with be silencers.
10mm-man
08-25-2012, 22:49
You have the concept correct, but are completely wrong about "sold as".
A receiver cannot be sold "as a pistol" or "as a rifle". It is neither until it has been assembled.
If it is built into a rifle, it cannot later be made into a pistol, because ATF considers any weapon "made from a rifle" to still be a rifle, even if you've taken the stock off.
If it is built into a pistol, it can later be made into a pistol "configured" as a rifle, and return to its original pistol configuration later.
Glad you chimed in! Good info right there...... No need to read my handbook now![Beer]
If you are purchasing a used lower with the intent to build into a pistol, how to do you go about checking what it was originally sold as?
Singlestack, I believe you are legal to have a round chambered in an AR pistol in your vehicle, however, along the lines of what Jim has said, I would avoid doing so. I think it'd be a case of you getting cited, or worse, and having to fight it after the fact.
Circuits
08-25-2012, 23:53
If you are purchasing a used lower with the intent to build into a pistol, how to do you go about checking what it was originally sold as?
A fair question, and one which ATF has not addressed. If the lower is sold to an FFL they dont know how it has been previously configured, and should just record it as a receiver. Customer who buys it will have no idea what its been before.
rockymtnrifleman
08-26-2012, 08:29
No. It doesn't matter what the receiver says. It could say "nucular bom", etc. 100% correct!
If it's in a pistol configuration (one grip, no stock, no 2nd forward grip, has a rifled barrel) then it transfers as a pistol Buffer tube "cannot readily accept a stock" meaning use a pistol buffer tube, modify a regular one to not accept a stock or wrap the buffer tube in 550 chord... key for "readily" interpret at your own risk. ATF also stated you cannot have a verticle grip, however hand stops and the AFG are 100% ok.
If it's in a rifle configuration (stock, rifled barrel) it transfers as a rifle
If it's a lower-only, it transfers as "other", because to be a rifle it has to have both a stock and a rifled barrel.
You can take a lower marked "pistol" and build a rifle out of it, if you want. Or you can build a pistol.
The fun part starts with how it was initially assembled: If you bought or assembled it as a pistol, you can then put a long barrel and a stock on it, and make it into a rifle. Then later take the stock off, and make it back into a pistol again. However, if you bought or assembled it as a rifle, first, then you could not legally take the stock off and make it into a pistol. Ain't ATF rulings fun?
SouthPaw
08-28-2012, 10:52
No to ad to the fire but where does stripped lowers fall? I purchased a RRA stripped lower so can it be configured either way?
Circuits
08-28-2012, 11:00
No to ad to the fire but where does stripped lowers fall? I purchased a RRA stripped lower so can it be configured either way?
Yep, either way.
Sticking point for many new builders is that stripped lowers, or even complete lowers, cannot be sold by an FFL to someone under 21 - even if they intend to build it into a rifle. FFLs can only transfer complete rifles and complete shotguns to 18-20yr olds.
Thanks for all the responses, guys - that was a good education on AR lowers and form 4473. Back to my original question: it sounds like in CO I can legally have a loaded and chambered AR pistol in my vehicle. Does anyone know if this is legal in Denver, as well?
Thanks,
Singlestack
you can have a loaded and chambered pistol in your vehicle in any city in co. denver has a mag capacity ban for residents.
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