View Full Version : How mature are the Gas Piston AR-15 systems?
Skukripion
09-01-2012, 16:18
I'm just wondering is the gas piston system for AR-15 mature enough? Seem to have problem with carrier tilts.
Skukripion
09-01-2012, 17:11
I posted this in the wrong area, oops.
SideShow Bob
09-01-2012, 17:28
I posted this in the wrong area, oops.
PM a Mod, they will take care of it for you........[Tooth]
kidicarus13
09-01-2012, 20:25
The Stag piston system is good to go.
Moved
If anyone can think of a better forum than this let me know
Great-Kazoo
09-01-2012, 21:11
No issues with my Adams Arms conversion. The early units came with a bolt carrier key replacement, which had some "tilt" issues. Most if not all mfg's new units come with a complete 1 piece key/carrier.
Skukripion
09-01-2012, 21:45
Thanks for moving this thread, i couldn't figure out how to move or remove this myself.
Kaiser.Shooter
09-01-2012, 21:50
I have 2 x Osprey's GP mid-length and 2 x TNW's carbine length systems.
Both systems are retro fit so you don't need a special bulky gas block, just use your existing front sight base or gas block.
They all run like a champs, making your AR a low maintenance rifle .
TNW comes with a gas key replacement strike face and I didn't like it so I purchased a one piece piston bolt carrier.
Skukripion
09-01-2012, 21:53
My dad has a Ruger SR 556, the buffer tube is scratched up really bad, i figure it's due to carrier tilt, he send it to Ruger for repair. It really made me question the overall matureness of piston ARs.
Kaiser.Shooter
09-01-2012, 22:01
http://blackriflearms.com/
these guys found a good carrier tilt solution , I have their carrier and love it!
ChunkyMonkey
09-01-2012, 22:50
The Marine Corps has been firing hundreds of thousands if not millions of rounds through their IAR/HK416.
No scratches on the buffer tubes or one piece bcg on both of my adam arms uppers. No scratches on the tube or bcg of my POF.
It's so nice to have your bcg and chamber clean even after few hundred rounds.
BPTactical
09-01-2012, 23:25
How mature are the piston conversions????
Well I have yet to see one knocked up or needing a shave[Tooth]
In all honesty I feel they are a hardware solution for a software problem. The AR platform is reliable if kept lubed and reasonably clean. I have customers that run courses of 5K rounds per weekend with no issue. They maintain their weapon as a normal course of action and have no problems.
I am sure if Eugene Stoner felt the piston system was best for the platform he would have made it a piston actuated action.
They add weight and mechanical complexity.
Complexity of a mechanical device just adds potential for that much more to fail.
Parts left off cost nothing, parts left off cannot fail.
Bolt tilt is caused by recoil impulses being introduced to the bolt carrier in a way it was not designed for.
When a gas impingement system acts upon the bolt carrier the gas impulse exerts pressure equally in all directions. The bolt carrier moves due to this impulse the only direction it can, straight back in a linear fashion.
With the piston system the recoil rod imparts the recoil impulse strictly on the top of the bolt carrier, this adds a rotational force to the bolt carrier. Now you have the bolt carrier wanting to rotate downward as it travels rearward.
The machine isn't designed for such.
So in essence you have attempted to fix a relatively infrequent problem but have added another problem that occurs on every round fired.
Nothing like taking a step backwards.[Bang]
If you want a piston rifle then get one that was designed that way from the git go, such as a Sig or AK.
rustycrusty
09-02-2012, 00:57
When I was looking at a rifle I really worried about the horrible reliability of all direct impengement guns. I bought an AK74 and it never failed- not a hiccup ever... It couldn't hold the groups that I wanted at 500m so I gave up and pieced together an AR.
I like to know the breaking point of all the guns I own so I won't clean them until I have a failure.
I am somewhere between 2500-5000 rounds and all I have done is take the bolt out, dry it with a paper towel, dip it in ATF, wipe excess and re-assemble.
I have done this once in the life of the rifle.(thank you anonymous source for awesome lube tip)
I also cheated and ran a rod and brush down the barrel once before a competition.
I see no point in messing with a piston conversion
I would avoid them.
Not enough commonality of parts.
10 years from now your brand XXX Piston conversion breaks a part. Brand XXX is out of business and you are screwed.
How mature are the piston conversions????
Well I have yet to see one knocked up or needing a shave[Tooth]
In all honesty I feel they are a hardware solution for a software problem. The AR platform is reliable if kept lubed and reasonably clean. I have customers that run courses of 5K rounds per weekend with no issue. They maintain their weapon as a normal course of action and have no problems.
I am sure if Eugene Stoner felt the piston system was best for the platform he would have made it a piston actuated action.
They add weight and mechanical complexity.
Complexity of a mechanical device just adds potential for that much more to fail.
Parts left off cost nothing, parts left off cannot fail.
Bolt tilt is caused by recoil impulses being introduced to the bolt carrier in a way it was not designed for.
When a gas impingement system acts upon the bolt carrier the gas impulse exerts pressure equally in all directions. The bolt carrier moves due to this impulse the only direction it can, straight back in a linear fashion.
With the piston system the recoil rod imparts the recoil impulse strictly on the top of the bolt carrier, this adds a rotational force to the bolt carrier. Now you have the bolt carrier wanting to rotate downward as it travels rearward.
The machine isn't designed for such.
So in essence you have attempted to fix a relatively infrequent problem but have added another problem that occurs on every round fired.
Nothing like taking a step backwards.[Bang]
If you want a piston rifle then get one that was designed that way from the git go, such as a Sig or AK.
[Beer]
I thought I wanted to be the cool kid with a piston conversion a year back, but more I talked to people that had one and taking into the account I am a firm believer in Murphy's law I decided it was not worth it.
Your explanation Bert and Hoser's quip on parts later was very good and summed up all the downs..............to ME that outweighed being the in crowd.
Skukripion
09-02-2012, 10:10
As a matter of fact i never bought a piston AR-15, my dad did. a Ruger SR 556. We find it problematique. The bolt group does not get heats up, but part of the piston system above the barrel heats up like a mofo, that part act like a heat sink so hot can melt skin right through. And i noticed the scratch in the buffet tube when i decided to take everything apart and maintain it.
I'm sure the US military choosed HK416/IAR because they were the best piston system designed(German design, surprise, surprise). I have heard very good feed about LWRC's M6. But I just don't think the Ruger design is matured, and makes me question about the other commercial piston AR-15s.
beast556
09-02-2012, 10:11
I dont buy in to the whole piston thing. I have fired and ran AR rifles to the limit before I had kids and had money for cases of ammo. Use top quality parts and good not beat to shit USGI mags and you will be good to go. If the AR was so unreliable the service would of ditched it years ago. Just my 2 cents
LWRC
http://www.lwrci.com/t-technology.aspx
Reading Bert's comments reminded me of a blog post I read a while back: http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/08/27/cleaning-your-ar-15-is-pretty-much-a-waste-of-time/
So many people just assume that ARs need to be surgically cleaned to operate properly and that AKs still run with mud stuffed in the barrel.
They are machines. Clean as needed and keep them properly lubricated. When you are familiar with your particular weapon, it will tell you what it needs. If you don't know what it needs, take it to someone like Bert or Rob and they will tell you and then you will know.
Piston ARs...Why?
Be safe.
BushMasterBoy
09-04-2012, 12:15
Naval Institute read...
http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2010-07/what-really-happened-wanat
PS. Stag arms is same as CMMG when it comes to gas piston systems. Argue all you want, hot gas back to the chamber area is not good.
kidicarus13
09-04-2012, 13:29
Naval Institute read...
http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2010-07/what-really-happened-wanat
PS. Stag arms is same as CMMG when it comes to gas piston systems. Argue all you want, hot gas back to the chamber area is not good.
DI is "mil-spec" and there are a lot of people that will argue that DI is better until the day they die ...or the US military adopts the piston system, whichever comes first.
Ever heard someone say, "If the piston system was better, Eugene Stoner would have made the original with it." Please... the military foot soldiers do not always have the best weapons available, just the most inexpensive that meets their standards.
DI is "mil-spec" and there are a lot of people that will argue that DI is better until the day they die ...or the US military adopts the piston system, whichever comes first.
Ever heard someone say, "If the piston system was better, Eugene Stoner would have made the original with it." Please... the military foot soldiers do not always have the best weapons available, just the most inexpensive that meets their standards.
I agree everything can be improved in time, hell maybe Mr. Stoner would have done a piston system instead of DI now, what ifs????
Upgrading the system to piston is cool but there is too many different versions to do it. Parts are specific to the manufactures' kits. That makes me nervous to find parts in 10 years, which is why I haven't jumped on board the piston revolution. With the proper care and maintenance the DI system works..........
Mick-Boy
09-04-2012, 21:23
Naval Institute read...
http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2010-07/what-really-happened-wanat
The biggest thing people can learn about weapons from what happened at Kahler is that they NEED TO BE WET. Piston guns wouldn't have helped them. Those kids were firing high volumes of ammunition through dry guns. Of course they're going to choke. [Bang]
That bullshit barracks story about not lubing you rifle in the desert causes so many weapons problems I want to throat punch anyone I hear repeat it.
The biggest thing people can learn about weapons from what happened at Kahler is that they NEED TO BE WET. Piston guns wouldn't have helped them. Those kids were firing high volumes of ammunition through dry guns. Of course they're going to choke. [Bang]
That bullshit barracks story about not lubing you rifle in the desert causes so many weapons problems I want to throat punch anyone I hear repeat it.
+1 on the Lube comment.
Piston rifles run much cooler and cleaner than their DI counterpart. From my experience, the lubrication on piston systems tend to last a lot longer than in traditional gas systems. I was very hesitant at first on the piston systems what with the added moving parts and weight, but my personal preference leans towards the piston simple due to lack of stoppages.
TheBelly
09-05-2012, 02:40
The biggest thing people can learn about weapons from what happened at Kahler is that they NEED TO BE WET. Piston guns wouldn't have helped them. Those kids were firing high volumes of ammunition through dry guns. Of course they're going to choke. [Bang]
That bullshit barracks story about not lubing you rifle in the desert causes so many weapons problems I want to throat punch anyone I hear repeat it.
fully agree here. All that's required to keep the rifles running is a heavy dose of ye-olde-gun-lube.
The ORIGINAL M16s that were fielded (without cleaning kits and without chrome lined barrels, IIRC) were touted as not needing to be lubed. The failures then have caused an almost-half-decade of love/hate for the DI ARs.
It's a machine, so keep it wet.
Also, if Mick gets to throat punch, I get to C*** Punt.
Mick-Boy
09-05-2012, 03:08
To answer the OPs question: I would recommend sticking with a quality DI gun. You'll get more for your money with an LMT, BCM or Colt than you will with a piston gun. Just keep it lubed.
Great-Kazoo
09-05-2012, 06:54
Upgrading the system to piston is cool but there is too many different versions to do it. Parts are specific to the manufactures' kits. That makes me nervous to find parts in 10 years, which is why I haven't jumped on board the piston revolution. With the proper care and maintenance the DI system works..........
If you know a machinist you will be gtg if parts are needed. I have an Adams Arms and outside the gas block i can turn everything else down, on my lathe, and i am far from a "machinist".
There are + & - for a piston system, either you like them or you do not. The nicest thing about both systems, is no one is forcing you to run one or the other, comfort level.
Piston rifles run much cooler and cleaner than their DI counterpart.
They run just at hot, they just dump the heat in a different place.
BPTactical
09-05-2012, 09:09
They run just at hot, they just dump the heat in a different place.
You mean at the front of the forearm? Where your off hand is supposed to go?
What's the problem[LOL]
BushMasterBoy
09-05-2012, 12:10
Interesting report right here. I haven't read it all thoroughly.
http://www.ewp.rpi.edu/hartford/~ernesto/SPR/LeBlanc-FinalReport.pdf
Cheap politicians should give these outposts these...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/US_Navy_070825-N-9769P-317_A_Special_Warfare_Combatant-craft_crewman_%28SWCC%29_mans_his_GAU-17_minigun_during_live-fire_patrol_training_along_the_Salt_River_in_north ern_Kentucky.jpg
Mick-Boy
09-05-2012, 13:26
For anyone who cares, I wrote up my experience with piston rifles and posted it here (http://www.ar-15.co/forums/showthread.php?p=614174#post614174).
For anyone who cares, I wrote up my experience with piston rifles and posted it here (http://www.ar-15.co/forums/showthread.php?p=614174#post614174).
Good write up. Thanks for sharing. [Beer]
Kaiser.Shooter
09-05-2012, 14:44
Interesting write up.
Please take a look at the adcor bear :
http://www.adcorindustries.com/wordpress/index.php/products/
I like the idea of the forward charging option and dust wiper/cover.
Mick-Boy
09-05-2012, 22:01
Kaiser.shooter,
I posted a longer reply in the other thread. But just for consistency sake..
That product doesn't come anywhere close to what I would consider "mature". If they do well during the Army's ICC solicitation then continue to produce products with no discernible decline in standards we can talk. Until then *I* wouldn't spend my money to find out if they're any good.
Skullworks
09-15-2012, 17:20
You want a gas piston - get an AR180. The system worked great because it was designed as a system. The BC is different and the springs are in the same plane as the force from the piston - even so there is more bearing surface on the 180 carrier, and it was designed to use steel as the upper receiver material, not aluminum.
Not sure about the current AR180B's - I have only used the original Costa Mesa or Sterling Arms versions.
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