View Full Version : Has anyone else lost faith in the "Paper Promise"?
I have recently come to thinking. What if my retirement fund (Roth IRA) is still "worth" the same in 20 years as it is now despite contributing to it for the last 10 years. What if: the bank who I am sending my monthly contributions to my Roth IRA goes under between now (34 YO) and when I need it (65 YO).
30 years????
Do I have faith that the USD will endure that long?
My dilemma. Cash in now and convert it to physical precious metals that I have in my hand and have control over. A quote comes to mind though I cannot place the person who said it along the lines of, "The same amount of dollars will not buy you a loaf of bread 20 years from now as today, but the same amount of silver will buy you a loaf of bread today as will 20 years from now." Or something like that.
What I am realizing is that it is not that the price of precious metals is not going up... it is the value of the USD is in fact going down. (the USD buys less and less daily!)
I have this constant draw to liquidate my Roth IRA to which I have been contributing to for the last 10 years (and bearly seeing the value go above what I have contributed) or waiting it out for the stock market to "go back to what I did not want to get down to"
Any Financial Advisors in the house?
I don't do ira. I do real estate. tangible insurable and you get the income of the rent. if you do it right it can pay itself off after the down payment. the rent is scalable to the current cost of living.
then again I've been managing properties for other peoples investments for a long time.
oh forgot to mention you should be able to make %10 annually with the right choices without too much difficulty. startup costs are a bit high though.
BushMasterBoy
09-02-2012, 09:06
http://silverprice.org/charts/history/silver_10_year_o_usd.png
I started buying in the $5 range. Wish I had more gold! Mostly eBay purchases, some coin shops and thrift stores. Easy to sell & trade silver, and it usually will keep up with inflation no matter what. If I was younger and had to do it over, I would dredge for gold on the upper Arkansas River. If you really want some good advice go to kitco.com and join the forum. I made money buying precious metals and keeping them. It made my net worth go up, when my brand new house value went down. I'm not much on managing rentals as they require too much work! People trash the houses here in Pueblo. I have considered trading my PM's for property, but it would have to be perfect bugout property, preferably close to gold/silver producing areas. As for now it is my savings and has returned a few hundred percent increase in value. Price of precious metals will rise soon if the Federal Reserve puts more paper money in circulation. Only way silver will crash is if a huge mineral deposit is discovered. Just buy a few ounces a month and keep it in your safe...all other investments require way too much work and considerable risk. Don't put your nestegg in an Enron...
Just my .02 cents
Exactly what Wulf said. If you aren't worried about the risk of your IRA funds being lost in a ponzie scheme or another dotcom bubble, then you can keep your money there, but loan it out to people like Wulf. In fact, I'm going to send you a pm.
ChunkyMonkey
09-02-2012, 11:27
Cash out your money and start buying 1. Property tax lien 2. Loan hard money against properties. 3. 25% of your liquidity onto silver/gold.
In 10 years you can expect 3x 4x the original value.
I have recently come to thinking. What if my retirement fund (Roth IRA) is still "worth" the same in 20 years as it is now despite contributing to it for the last 10 years. What if: the bank who I am sending my monthly contributions to my Roth IRA goes under between now (34 YO) and when I need it (65 YO).
30 years????
Do I have faith that the USD will endure that long?
My dilemma. Cash in now and convert it to physical precious metals that I have in my hand and have control over. A quote comes to mind though I cannot place the person who said it along the lines of, "The same amount of dollars will not buy you a loaf of bread 20 years from now as today, but the same amount of silver will buy you a loaf of bread today as will 20 years from now." Or something like that.
What I am realizing is that it is not that the price of precious metals is not going up... it is the value of the USD is in fact going down. (the USD buys less and less daily!)
I have this constant draw to liquidate my Roth IRA to which I have been contributing to for the last 10 years (and bearly seeing the value go above what I have contributed) or waiting it out for the stock market to "go back to what I did not want to get down to"
Any Financial Advisors in the house?While I'm not a financial advisor, I do know it's possible to convert your IRA to physical gold because I've looked into it. A quick Google search will find you info, like this (salesly) article (http://www.usagold.com/ira.html), but there are risks, as highlighted here (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/goldline-witness-tells-congress-lost-60k-turned-ira/story?id=11710054#.UEOXB8FlTqU). (Basically don't let yourself get steered away from buying bullion and into coins). And my other concern is that doing this means someone else holds the physical gold I (theoretically) put my money into - and I just don't trust people and companies enough to hand them my retirement and hope they'll (a) be around when I need it, (b) not abscond with some or all of my gold, and (c) the government will even allow me to have my gold when I need it. The government seizing all physical gold isn't exactly unprecedented historically.
Anyhow, if you go down this path, consider all this, and don't go all in at once. Diversify diversify diversify as they say. Hope this helps some. [Beer]
I share your concerns, rbeau30. I've converted a a portion of my equity holdings into precious metals holdings. When the dollar tanks because of runaway debt, few investments will hold their value, but gold and silver have a better chance. Real Estate is scary too, because what if they jack taxes up so high you can't afford to pay them? Yep, the government will confiscate it. It's a tough call, as to just what to do. A couple years ago I jokingly told a friend to invest in Spam. Might not be so far from wrong.
Real Estate is scary too, because what if they jack taxes up so high you can't afford to pay them?
Then raise the rent. I don't think tax rates are a legitimate concern.
Then raise the rent. I don't think tax rates are a legitimate concern.
Raise rent, on people who are in just as dire financial straits, and can't afford it as it is? And what if you invested in raw land? No rent to draw on. I don't underestimate the government's desire to survive when it's going broke, and what measures it will stoop to to do so.
Raw land isn't an investment unless you can sell it for more than you purchased it for. If the gov. wants your land, they'll just take it. They won't bother trying to tax people out of the game. They already do that with the death tax.
EDIT: And yes, just raise the rent to cover the taxes. If people can't afford it, they'll move out and people who can will move in.
There's an appeals process for real estate taxes, I did it last year. It's not a really big deal.
If you're talking about income taxes off the property if they're that bad everyone is screwed.
If it's a rental income tax, just LLC quick claim the property and take a draw.
That being said real estate isn't for everyone. If you're scared of the work or the risks move on to something you're comfortable with.
Raw land isn't an investment unless you can sell it for more than you purchased it for. If the gov. wants your land, they'll just take it. They won't bother trying to tax people out of the game. They already do that with the death tax.
EDIT: And yes, just raise the rent to cover the taxes. If people can't afford it, they'll move out and people who can will move in.
Irving, I think you and I are just thinking about different circumstances.
I'm envisioning a catastrophic financial meltdown, where everyone is hurting, unemployment skyrockets, and the dollar tanks severely. If all the worthless cash people have must be used to buy bread, Real Estate values will tank also, because few will have the money to buy it at pre crisis values. The potential market for your Real Estate product will fade away, and with that so will the price you can command for it.
That would be the PERFECT time to buy real estate. Don't get me all hot and bothered.
That would be the PERFECT time to buy real estate.
For sure it would, my friend, couldn't agree more. [Beer]
I am not a financial advisor. This is only a description of my choices. Most of my life savings are in a IRA rollover from 401ks and i worry too. That money is all i have to live on. I cant see that SS will survive this mess. I wish i had never put a penny in my 401s.
I worry that the goverment debt will become so large they will tax, or confiscate ira 401s or convert the ira/401s to treasuries (debt)
A warning with the pms. I think the times are strongly inflationary. I also think there will be liquidity crisis still ahead where pms will get liquidated along with everthing else. Pretty everone is warning about inflation. Usually a deflationary scare comes out of the MSM and the algo bots sell equities when that happens to grab the pms out of the weak hands. If it comes that will be a good time to buy. FRNs aint going away tommorow. I keep some on hand. My rule is dont buy any pms with cash you will need in the next three years. Dont listen to me make up your own mind. But if you do buy pms dont be weak hand. www.comparesilverprices.com (http://www.comparesilverprices.com) and www.comparegoldprices.com (http://www.comparegoldprices.com) are good resources as is http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/Broadcast/Broadcast.html
I know several who have cashed out took the hit and and converted to pms. The hit was substantial. They have recovered the hit with pm appreciation(dollar depreciation). I think the chance of gold confiscation is high. Many knowladgable people say that because of the risk of confiscation pms should not exceed 25% of your portfolio. Silver has never been confiscated not that it wont be in the future. I hold pslv and phys in my IRA. Watch the premiums on these if you choose them, get in low. The premium is the cost of the fund over and above the value of the pms. http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.com/ publishes the premiums often and always when there is a historic low in the premiums. The premiums often reflect other events happening in the PM world like a short holder exiting a position. Unfortunatly the premiums are often high when there is a dip and low when there is a rip. So if the premium is average and there is a dip it might be a good time to get in. On the other just averaging into the pms seems to work well as anything. I think PSLV and PHYS are by far the most honest of the funds and i trust Eric Sprott. They hold physical pms in independent vaults not bank vaults in Canada. Not that that will matter if confiscation occurs. GLD and SLV are not trustworthy IMHO.I could be wrong. Nobody knows at this point. I will be able to withdraw without penalty soon and plan on withdrawing my living expenses each year from the IRA. I know I may be stupid but i just cant get myself to cash out and take the hit. Interesting times eh[Beer]
xring, my fear is that the runaway national spending and debt will demand ever greater printing of money to finance it, driving the dollar down in value to tragically low levels, rendering cash investment/savings holdings of everyone, including that of all us average Joe citizens nill. All the hard work and saving down over people's lifetimes will be deemed virtually worthless in the blink of an eye. It's criminal.
That's why this coming election is so crucial. Might be our last chance to change course. Obama is going to steam roll us to the above end.
xring, my fear is that the runaway national spending and debt will demand ever greater printing of money to finance it, driving the dollar down in value to tragically low levels, rendering cash investment/savings holdings of everyone, including that of all us average Joe citizens nill. All the hard work and saving down over people's lifetimes will be deemed virtually worthless in the blink of an eye. It's criminal.
That's why this coming election is so crucial. Might be our last chance to change course. Obama is going to steam roll us to the above end.
It does seem to be accellerating rapidly doesnt it? Particularily telling to me was the ecbs announcment to buy bonds and the bernanks qe4eva coming within a week of each other. It seems somewhat surreal to me. And yet others are blissfully ignorant- qe what?
i am far from a financial advisor and really just got to the point of life where i make considerable money. heres my take though, its might not be a bad idea to own things as soon as you can, such as a house, car, etc. pay them off quick. i know some people say keep the debt because rates are low and if the market goes a certain way the debt could be even easier to pay off, but to be honest i think we are headed to some uncharted waters and personally id want to own my home and other things so that worst comes to worst i can sell what i need to without some beaurocratic bs.
as others have said i think you need a considerable amount in tangible assets, the easiest being precious metals. land is doable as well, but takes a bit more saavy and is a tiny bit higher risk if you consider the ways the government can bone you on that. metals are fairly easy to conceal and not leave a trace.
ill tell you one way people are making money back in illinois. with the death tax, a lot of poor famring families (who happen to have a crap ton of land just no cash) can't keep their parents land when they die due to the tax. so often times they sell it fairly cheap and its usually hunting or farming land. i know some people that have made considerable money purchasing land like that. its a bit risky but its very useable land.
with the company i work for they match up to 5% of your salary in your 401k. so if i put in around 6500, theyll match it. now the question i haven't asked yet is what all i can do with that money because if i can invest it in previous metals or other tangible assets, it could prove very useful. but sadly the days of simply having a big old nest egg for retirement are over. it would be a shame to put in so much cash and be left with virtually nothing.
I echo this sentiment as well. About 18 months ago, I bought my first silver bullion... Wish I would have started sooner, but I can't help but wonder if you'd be entering the metals game now, if you're a bit too late to reap enough benefit to go "all in".
Take a look at www.coin-rare.com and others, to order bullion. It ships fast and doesn't have an outrageous % over spot, and definitely stick with bullion. IMHO, there's no reason to pay a premium just because that 1 oz coin is a "collectable".
HoneyBadger
09-17-2012, 08:56
I echo this sentiment as well. About 18 months ago, I bought my first silver bullion... Wish I would have started sooner, but I can't help but wonder if you'd be entering the metals game now, if you're a bit too late to reap enough benefit to go "all in".
Take a look at www.coin-rare.com and others, to order bullion. It ships fast and doesn't have an outrageous % over spot, and definitely stick with bullion. IMHO, there's no reason to pay a premium just because that 1 oz coin is a "collectable".
Those are the best online prices I've seen in a while. I've been wondering if it's too late to go in on something like silver, but according to the gold/silver ratio, silver ought to be priced around $140 an ounce. I'm not sure why there's such a disparity, but I might try to get in on it!
Those are the best online prices I've seen in a while. I've been wondering if it's too late to go in on something like silver, but according to the gold/silver ratio, silver ought to be priced around $140 an ounce. I'm not sure why there's such a disparity, but I might try to get in on it!
Yes Sir. I started looking for a good resource to buy bullion right after the bubble popped late last spring and the price plummeted. coin-rare.com was the best price I was able to find, and they have everything from 1/10th of an ounce coins (about the size of a dime) upward. I like having some of the little stuff and 10oz ingots, and not having a difference in price based on it's weight.
OK, I know this thread is old, but it's the first one I saw that kind of discussed what I wanted to ask about. I saw on Doomsday Preppers someone using the 1 gram gold pieces to barter with and I was wondering if anyone here had bought any or had ideas about if they are worth it or not.
hollohas
01-10-2013, 17:12
Yes Sir. I started looking for a good resource to buy bullion right after the bubble popped late last spring and the price plummeted. coin-rare.com was the best price I was able to find, and they have everything from 1/10th of an ounce coins (about the size of a dime) upward. I like having some of the little stuff and 10oz ingots, and not having a difference in price based on it's weight.
What do they charge for shipping?
I am partial to buying local with cash so there is no record.
Edit: I found the shipping costs. For 1oz Silver rounds, unless you are buying 6 or more and pay by bank wire (which comes to $2.79 over spot) you can buy locally for cheaper. Anything more than 6 you are getting a darn good deal.
Just FYI for those that want to buy in smaller quantities. ;)
EDIT #2: I have ZERO faith in the dollar. Your investments based in dollars (401k, IRA, etc) might grow over the years, but the buying power of those dollars will be SIGNIFICANTLY less when you retire. That said, I still have those types of investments specifically because my company matches a portion...
kidicarus13
01-10-2013, 17:16
You people that bought gold/silver years ago and are now selling it for large profits are GOUGING- it's not right! Never mind that I didn't buy it back then, I want some now!
(Meant to sound like every tenth post over the last 3 weeks. Freakin' whiners)
ChadAmberg
01-10-2013, 19:05
Anyone purchase from APMEX? http://www.apmex.com/
They handle IRA retirement accounts in gold/silver/etc also.
Anyone purchase from APMEX? http://www.apmex.com/
They handle IRA retirement accounts in gold/silver/etc also.I've bought physical gold and silver from them several times, and they've always been excellent.
You people that bought gold/silver years ago and are now selling it for large profits are GOUGING- it's not right! Never mind that I didn't buy it back then, I want some now!
(Meant to sound like every tenth post over the last 3 weeks. Freakin' whiners)
-you forgot to add: "I'm going to remember who is selling SAE's (silver american eagles) now for more than they cost in 1986 and not buy from them when this frenzy is over" [ROFL2]
EDIT #2: I have ZERO faith in the dollar. Your investments based in dollars (401k, IRA, etc) might grow over the years, but the buying power of those dollars will be SIGNIFICANTLY less when you retire. That said, I still have those types of investments specifically because my company matches a portion...
As do I now. More so than when I started this thread. With the rampant printing of money to pay debt, it is just a matter of time. And ohh don't forget the Treas Dept wanting to manufacture a Trillion dollar coin to pay the debt down?
hollohas
01-11-2013, 17:02
And ohh don't forget the Treas Dept wanting to manufacture a Trillion dollar coin to pay the debt down?
I still can't wrap my head around how that makes sense.
centrarchidae
01-13-2013, 02:44
I still can't wrap my head around how that makes sense.
It doesn't, really.
But here's the logic:
1) Congress has the power to "coin money."
2) Congress has authorized the Treasury to make platinum coins, in whatever denomination. The intent was to make novelties for coin collectors, but the coins will still be legal tender - at face (not metal) value.[1]
1 + 2 = 3) It's legal for the Treasury to make a one-ounce platinum coin and stamp it "One trillion dollars." Or, $1,600 in metal and $999.999,998.400 in seigneurage.[2]
4) The Treasury then deposits that coin at the Federal Reserve and writes checks or other disbursements against the trillion dollars that they suddenly have in their account.
Take away the smoke and mirrors, and it's the coin version of running the printing press.
[1] We already see this with pennies. They're "worth" a cent in face value, but actually have something like 1.4 cents' worth of zinc, each. They would literally be worth more, hammered flat and sold as scrap.
[2] Literally, means the right of a sovereign to profit from making coins. In context, it's a polite word for "inflation."
hollohas
01-17-2013, 16:20
Check this silver bullion out
http://silverbulletbullion.com/images/509.jpg
http://silverbulletbullion.com/images/products/45acp6-large.jpg
http://silverbulletbullion.com/ (http://silverbulletbullion.com/)
I would like to pick it some silver but not sure in what form. What are you guys buying coins, rounds or bullion?
losttrail
01-18-2013, 09:24
I lost faith in the USD and our government decades ago.
I would like to pick it some silver but not sure in what form. What are you guys buying coins, rounds or bullion?
Mixing it up depending on what I can find and where. I have some silver maples, eagles and 1 ounce bars, plus a few 1 gram gold "bars" in plastic containment. Watch financial market pages and see what gold and silver prices are and see what is closest and has the best shipping and handling options. Try to buy right after a few days of losses since some sites can lag a day or two while others lag a few seconds. Just make sure what you are buying is certified .999 or .9999 silver or gold from a reputable site. I have had good dealings with Westminster and Apmex.
I buy everything from 90 percent to 10 oz 999 bars in silver also like the old Mexican 2 peso coin about 20th of an oz gold as well as other gold coins
Thank you for your replies! I've been looking at Westminster and Apmex website and that is why I was curious as to what everyone was buying. Looks like I start buying 5 or 6 coins per paycheck.
look at 90% silver too pre 65 dimes quarters halfs etc $1 face value is around 22 23 bucks if you are short on funds
look at 90% silver to pre 65 dimes quarters halfs etc $1 face value is around 22 23 bucks if you are short on funds
I prefer pre-1965 coins because they are portable, are easily recognizable, and if S did ever HTF, It would be easier to utilize pre-'65 coinage.
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