More work on the M&P

[NightCat]

So, I've already posted up about installing the APEX DCAEK, I found a really cool DIY for guys who dont want to spend the money for the parts kit and are really handy with files and other such hand tools, I'm sure its a repost, but there are some things on here I'm looking to capture and gain some input on.

Here is the link to the Write-up, it's in a nice PDF format.

http://www.burwellguns.com/misc/M&Ptriggerjob.pdf

And just for comparison, here are the parts or some of them at least from my DCAEK, for those who may be interested.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/547314_10152075613145217_1066509451_n.jpg
The bottom Sear obviously is the "fully machined" APEX Sear, and you can see how the over-travel is reduced due to the change in shape and how the over all shape of the sear is smoothed out as well as the back portion.

I am looking into modifying my APEX Sear...however I'm sorta sketch on that due to the fact that it isnt exactly a cheap kit to replace if I fuck up...sure, its better than a new pistol...but eeeh.

I'm mostly just looking into taking some steel wool or maybe my dremel tool with a polishing wheel on it and polishing up some of the surfaces as mentioned in the PDF...

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/527083_10152075617405217_2104234631_n.jpg
Clearly, the APEX Striker block wont need any work for it is already radius'd quite well and really rather smooth and polished.

However, what caught my eye in the PDF is how the Trigger bar was polished where it makes contact with the Sear...I'm really debating dong that with either as I said before, steel wool or a dremel tool, perhaps some 2000 or 3000 grit sandpaper to remove as little material as possible.

I like the DCAEK over the stock trigger a lot, I just still feel like there is something missing...or not quite perfect for my style.

I might go about buying and installing the APEX RAM, its a Reset Assist Mechanism, its supposed to produce a much more tactile reset on the trigger.

Understand I had an XDm prior to my M&P and for anyone wondering, the trigger on it is absolutely phenomenal.

Regardless.... I sold my XDm to put some work into the M&P. I'm debating using my old cheap ass nasty soldering gun to do some Stipple work to the gun.

I don't shoot with gloves and I do feel as though I could do with a little better grip in certain places, and there is a very defined plastic mark on the tang where the weapon was cast. I'll probably sand that down with some fine sand paper.

But I've been looking a lot into stippling and the patterns and the positive response it provides.

And yes, I am debating taking a line out of Travis Haley's book and doing a reference mark on my trigger guard, I dont quite think I'm brave enough for that...

Regardless, what caught my eye on that PDF is on Page 21/46. The polishing of the trigger bar.

I can see how that will help the engagement of the sear and smooth out the pull...so, Im super interested in that but would like to get feedback from anyone who HAS done it first.

Also, the striker polishing is extremely interesting to me, starting on Pg. 25/46. I'm not sure if I fully understand the reasoning behind it, besides the obvious polishing = less resistance, less resistance = smoother pull = easier to stay on target between shots.

The before and after pics dont really show me a lot...Im not 100% sure as to what the guy modified...It doesnt look a whole lot shinier to me...(polished)

So anyone care to chime in?


Regardless, I'm not sure exactly why I made a thread about this...its more so as I'm looking into parts, and other people's M&P's and the More I shoot it, the more I realize the small things I want to add on, or change, or modify to fit my style and my demands.

I'm definitely going to do an indexing point for my reaction hand thumb on my frame by stippling it a little. and I'll probably use (as indicated by a YouTube Video) a PMAG to practice on so if I fuck it up Im not out a $600+ pistol just a magazine..which, oh no...not a PMAG lol.

So, Just looking around the net for some other peoples shit to get some idea's.


So far, all I have done is Trijicon Night Sights and my APEX DCAEK.

The plan is as follows,
Night Sights
APEX DCAEK
Additional Trigger work as needed
Storm Lake 4.95" threaded barrel (yes...I plan on running a suppressor....why? because its my god given right under the constitution...nuffsaid)
Slight Stippling work (where needed)
DuraCoat/SeraCoat FDE (because I can and I like FDE...a lot..)
Extended magazines (Taylor Freelance) just for plinking days.
Surefire X300.

So, I really want to do a lot to this pistol to make it on par with my AR.

Any feedback you guys have or any experience would be much appreciated.

I'm sure it all sounds "tactiCool" but as I shoot this more and more, I discover all the little things that I want to do to get more consistent and improve my shots.

The suppressor is more so because I've never ran a suppressed weapon and I've always wanted to...its the ability to shoot without ear pro, and the ability to not make a giant flash in a defensive situation...and yes, the James Bond factor is there haha.

[Fromk]

The Arredondo mag extensions are pretty good and will 5 rounds of 9mm without changing the spring. They're not too expensive either. I'd hold off in any more trigger work until the parts you have are broken in. It'll get better over time.

[Great-Kazoo]

I have about 50 rounds through the 9c i don't mind the trigger, yet as posted and from other sources i'll wait until i have an easy 500 down the pipe before doing anything.
From what i read, tweaking the factory trigger assy is similar to doing a glock. Those are easy to polish here, clean there, i would do a fluff & buff before dumping any money into it.

[grubby669]

APEX FSS

[NightCat]

I already have the DCAEK.....I'm looking into the AEK Trigger. The aluminium one, Im not a fan of the hinged trigger as it comes.


But you all have made a good point about breaking in the gun first, I think I'm around 400-500rnds in right now. Definitely not fully broke in, but I'm trying to get all my work done first so I can break in all the components at once and have it where I want it.

I'm sure I'll see the largest difference when I change barrels.

I'm thinking next for this is the RAM (https://apextactical.com/store/product-info.php?pid44.html) from APEX, and the AEK (https://apextactical.com/store/product-info.php?pid60.html).

[CareyH]

I just got my M&P9(its used with 3k rounds down the pipe) just from finger banging it(LOL) in the garage, I have noticed the "false reset" I have heard about with the m&p's. So I think the first thing I will do is the RAM and some trigger work at home. I am not trying to make it a race(as I already have enough of those) I just want to smooth it out a bit.

nightcat, if you want a suppressor buy it now so you can have it to play with by next summer. I think my next NFA toy will be a 9mm suppressor too.

[SA Friday]

I know Burwell. He's a good guy and has been customizing M&Ps since they first came out for USPSA and IDPA use. Tons of experience with the platform. He's in PA. We worked together as ROs at the last USPSA Summer Blast competition, it was back in... 2008 (I think). Last I knew he was still doing custom jobs on M&Ps.

He's a pretty funny guy too. His last DMV license photo, he shaved the top of his head and left 4-5" of hair ringed around his head before going in for the photo. He made this dorky smirk face in the picture. He looks goofy as hell in it. Told me it's gotten him out of at least a half dozen speeding tickets.

[NightCat]

hahaha good stuff!

I'm just waiting on funds right now to get my AEK and RAM, and then next check that doesnt get eaten by bills I'll get my Barrel...or I'll get my Barrel first and the APEX goodies later..

I'm trying to not get a whole lot of rounds through the pipe because I know I'm going to change it and have to re-break in the Storm Lake Barrel.

Urrrghhhh.....HOBBIES!! Y U SO EXPENSIVE!?!!?!?
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/089/665/tumblr_l96b01l36p1qdhmifo1_500.jpg

[NightCat]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand just another slight update,

Stippled my palmswell and I'm going to be ordering and installing an APEX AEK Aluminium trigger and Reset Assist Mechanism (RAM).

I'm still debating buying an FRE or not...I have no extraction issues with this thing...

Only issues I have sometimes is a failure to go to slide lock upon firing my last shot.

[Fromk]

Only issues I have sometimes is a failure to go to slide lock upon firing my last shot.

Does that only happen with your extended mags? Mine rarely lock the slide back while I'm shooting with my Arredondo extensions. It's not the end of the world when you're ready for it but it was disappointing. What is weird and annoying is it will always lock when I pull the slide back myself.

I know there's an different spring on the market but I don't feel like forking over the cash to upgrade right now.

[NightCat]

Does that only happen with your extended mags? Mine rarely lock the slide back while I'm shooting with my Arredondo extensions. It's not the end of the world when you're ready for it but it was disappointing. What is weird and annoying is it will always lock when I pull the slide back myself.

I know there's an different spring on the market but I don't feel like forking over the cash to upgrade right now.

I dont currently run extended mags, its in the future but not right now.

Happens on regular plain Jane S&W 17 rounders.

Had it happen 3 mags in a row...maybe its cause my M&P doesn't really get cleaned lol

[CMP_5.56]

Just thought I would give a heads up. I purchased and installed the Apex RAM, and Though I don't have quite 500 rounds through my new toy, the RAM was a huge disappointment. Compared to the videos I have seen, the RAM didn't do much at all for me. I can barely hear the reset still, and I can still feel my false reset and not the actual reset at all.

[NightCat]

Wow...

What other work do you have done to your M&P?

I can tell you that with the Hard Sear it makes the reset a lot more tactile, but still not what Im looking for.

[Great-Kazoo]

Just thought I would give a heads up. I purchased and installed the Apex RAM, and Though I don't have quite 500 rounds through my new toy, the RAM was a huge disappointment. Compared to the videos I have seen, the RAM didn't do much at all for me. I can barely hear the reset still, and I can still feel my false reset and not the actual reset at all.

My DEAK kit is in transit, lets see how it changes anything next weekend. The stock trigger is slushy with no "reset' feel to it, very nice shooter either way.

[NightCat]

My DEAK kit is in transit, lets see how it changes anything next weekend. The stock trigger is slushy with no "reset' feel to it, very nice shooter either way.

The Sear in the DCAEK really helps with reset, you can see it if you pull the slide off and run the reset by manually moving the trigger bar after the break. You can really see how much it helps as well as how it feels much better.

Hopefully next friday or so I'll order my AEK and my RAM

[NightCat]

Couldn't wait...haha, Ordered my RAM and AEK Trigger :D

$105.40 shipped direct from APEX :D

I Might Polish my feed ramp tonight...

[CMP_5.56]

Wow...

What other work do you have done to your M&P?

I can tell you that with the Hard Sear it makes the reset a lot more tactile, but still not what Im looking for.

The RAM is the only part I have in the trigger assembly. I want to go for the DEAK and AEK trigger. But if you go through YouTube, every video on the RAM shows it making a world of difference. And honestly, it was barely noticeable to me. I will definitely keep the M&P around, but I'm thinking about getting back into the XDm again.

[NightCat]

The RAM is the only part I have in the trigger assembly. I want to go for the DEAK and AEK trigger. But if you go through YouTube, every video on the RAM shows it making a world of difference. And honestly, it was barely noticeable to me. I will definitely keep the M&P around, but I'm thinking about getting back into the XDm again.

I also came from an XDm and its hard to shoot other handguns afterwards, the XDm has such a nice refined trigger with an awesome reset.

Try it with the DCAEK, or maybe just the Fully Machined Sear (Hard Sear)

I have a decent amount of feel for reset on just the DCAEK.

I'm excited, yet skeptical to see what the RAM will do in mine.

[NightCat]

Goodies Arrived! :D
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/578989_10152241250450217_147164440_n.jpg

[NightCat]

I'm not sure exactly who is even reading or posting in this thread, appears to be mostly just me :P

But, Took my M&P Down to its bare frame again...,yes again haha, in order to install my new goodies.

Initial thoughts...
the RAM is extremely easy to install..it's very obvious if you have a manual safety or magazine disconnect M&P to look at exactly why it doesn't work in those..otherwise, install was super easy in mine... Simple remove the Sear Housing block, and to make that easier, I find pulling the trigger and then lifting it up and out helps as opposed to not pulling the trigger...

AEK, It looked very well made, seemed simple enough, I did have some concern about the loop on the trigger bar not properly engaging my Sear as Randy Lee had mentioned in the install vid..which btw, giant props to Randy for those idiot proof guides.

Removal and Installation.
Removing all the old parts was quite simple for my friend assisting me and myself..we were already familiar with the inner workings of the M&P, fore we had not too long ago installed my DCAEK.

M&P disassembles incredibly easy, lock slide to rear, disengage sear, rotate take down pin. Remove slide.

Rotate take down pin up just above the frame and fanagle it out of the frame..The trigger pin comes out really easily with little to no force and Im inclined to say that a punch isnt even needed, just push it out with your take down tool, or you could use a punch, but no hammer needed.

Front coil roll pin drives from Take down lever (left) side to the right with an 1/8th inch roll pin, same for removing the sear housing block roll pin.

Be sure to take the locking block out at an angle for it rides on groves in the slide like a train, at which point you can just pull the trigger up and there shouldn't really be anything flying away or falling off. The Sear housing block if you've never removed it before may be a bit stiff, but as I may have mentioned, I find pulling the trigger while you still have that assembly in place aids in removal.. otherwise, a small screwdriver can be put behind the steel lips for the slide to ride on, and the frame and gentle prying force should remove it..

The Installation was no stranger to us from our past experience with my DCAEK...The entire trigger assembly with the AEK gets put back together via a 1/32" roll pin punch on the trigger retaining pin, and then you just drop the entire trigger assembly with the trigger bar back into the frame..APEX Makes life extremely easy by providing the slave pin for the trigger pin.

From here, its a matter of lining it up and just pushing (I used my thumb) the Trigger pin from the non take-down lever side (right) to left with minimal pressure and pop...in it went. At this point, you're DONE with the front part of the frame and can reinstall your coil roll pin with your 1/8th inch punch.

To the back...At this Point I installed the RAM and opted NOT to install the spring that came with the AEK. The RAM simply sits in its bore in the sear housing block and you know you have the correction upwards orientation when you just think about where the trigger bar rides..

As far as not installing the new Sear spring...I actually installed it and reassembled the gun to feel the pull weight...and It was too heavy for my liking, APEX Claims 5.0lbs..., the stiffer spring is to make up for the additional leverage on the AEK Trigger...but I didnt like it so I put my old DCAEK spring back in..

Back to the install...
Compressing the spring by hand, push your sear housing block back into the frame, you can then use a longer punch, or in my case, an allen key as a slave pin to make sure everything is aligned, and then drive your coil roll pin in about half way..Then reassemble the gun as normal.

Randy shows in the install video the different loops on the M&P trigger bar and how different revisions may require light modification..well, mine did, I didn't use feeler gauges because I had none available and didnt care to dig them up..so we went off feel. After the first time of it not firing, we discovered a very simple way to tell if you have made enough adjustment to allow the striker to fall.

As you look at your Sear as if you were to engage a target, from the beaver tail forward...you will see that with your Sear engagement lever in the disengaged position the Sear will sit at a certain location, at this location it shows just a little bit of the back of the sear and you can eyeball the height between the block and the Sear. With the lever in this position, this is the location where the Sear will want to be and the height it will want to be upon a complete trigger press to the rear.

So...we kept adjusting the loop distance with a flat head screw driver and reinstalled the block until we found we had the correct height at the back of our sear...and then went to reassemble the gun, still with the rear coil roll pin partially out incase we were wrong.. and then, test fired the gun to ensure proper function and reset..

That a about sums up the install...once you get your striker to fall and perform a proper functions check, you can button up our M&P and go test it out..

Thoughts after installation...
First off I want to say that this trigger is an absolute godsend! despite having any range time with it (obviously...) it feels much better..best thing I can compare it too is what I know, and I will say that with the trigger AND the RAM, it feels very similar to the XDm trigger..

Keep in mind I have 3 sets of parts from APEX in this gun, I have the Duty Carry Action Enhancement kit which includes the Fully Machined Sear (hard sear - shown above to compare to stock), Trigger Return Spring, Sear Spring, Ultimate striker block, and striker block spring. This alone was a great improvement but still didnt fit my need.

Between the Sear and the striker block the reset was absolutely more defined and the pull 110% smoothed out over factory..

then the other two components are those just reviewed..

So, with my Combination of the Duty Carry Enhancement Action Kit, AEK Aluminium Trigger, and the Reset Assist Mechanism I do believe I am finally happy with the trigger on my M&P and honestly believe this is the quality it should've been from the factory...

Now to the good stuff...
The front end parts..
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/578509_10152243580810217_1019186985_n.jpg

Test fitting the AEK trigger assembly (without the slide lock mechanism attached as it should be when actually installed)
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/550307_10152243579530217_143537344_n.jpg

The bore I speak of where the RAM is installed.
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/560725_10152243656420217_323894948_n.jpg
Somethin missing? lol
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/66588_10152243578195217_371610695_n.jpg

All said and done..
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/229855_10152243290035217_1976234825_n.jpg

And oh yea...btw....my friends M&P soon to get some APEX goodies and probably a custom stippled backstrap from yours truly.
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/391631_10152243577195217_1404659353_n.jpg

For anyone wondering, the AEK Sear Spring in a Stock M&P makes the pull significantly heavier...we got bored and figured " if I aint using it, lets see what it does to yours " lol

aaaaaaaaaaand here she is...
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/598730_10152243664080217_313654489_n.jpg

Enjoy!

Hope it wasn't too much of a ridiculously long post

Big Thanks to Randy Lee and Jon at Apex tactical specialties.

[wyome]

Great write up!
I just want a reset on the trigger I can feel, and trust...which part would help with that?

[CHA-LEE]

I have done about 30 - 40 M&P trigger jobs. You can make the triggers on these guns really bad ass without swapping any parts but instead optimizing what is there.

[wyome]

I have done about 30 - 40 M&P trigger jobs. You can make the triggers on these guns really bad ass without swapping any parts but instead optimizing what is there.

Tell me more....pm as needed

[NightCat]

Tell me more....pm as needed

Yea....Like this lol.

First link in the thread.

http://www.burwellguns.com/misc/M&Ptriggerjob.pdf

Only problem is, IF you fuck up...you have nothing to fall back on.

I went with my APEX parts because I dont want to find myself in that situation and dont trust myself to shave off my sear with a file and all that noise.. I might polish some more stuff inside, such as the contact surface between my striker block and trigger bar, and my sear and trigger bar...but Im not removing material from nothing... Seems like a great way to ruin your gun if you mess up.

[CHA-LEE]

Tell me more....pm as needed

I am not going to list the step by step trigger job process here or in a PM. NightCat has already posted a good link to a step by step process on doing a basic trigger job. I actually used that same procedure as a benchmark when I first started doing M&P Trigger jobs. But If you want to get the maximum potential out of the trigger job there are a few extra things that can be done.

I do modify the existing parts when doing a trigger job and there is the possibility of screw up and ruining parts, then have to replace them. But that is always a risk when doing custom trigger jobs. This is why getting a trigger job isn't "Free".

I don't want to take any business away from local gunsmiths that work on guns to keep food on the table or the lights on. But if you want a trigger job done on an M&P I can do it for you for a modest fee.

If you want to do it yourself with drop in parts so you don't have to manually modify the parts you can use the APEX components. They are good parts but you will spend a decent chunk of change going that rout. That and the APEX parts still need a little bit of work done to them to work to their maximum potential.

You really can't compare a drop parts trigger job to a custom trigger job. A custom trigger job will always yield better results. At least when I am doing them. I can't speak for all gunsmiths out there as I have seen some absolute butcher jobs being pawned off as "Custom" trigger jobs.

[NightCat]

I'm probably going to accentuate some of my APEX Parts, not because Im dissatisfied with them, however simply because as CHA-LEE Said, to extract their full potential.

Mostly what I'm talking about is some polishing, on the Sear itself, a little on the trigger and perhaps on the striker....yet, Im not really interested in pulling the striker out..

So probably just the Sear and Trigger. Just to get a smooth engagement, I'm not looking to remove any weight from my pull, just utilize what I already have. I am VERY Happy with my gun as it is right now with the current modifications from APEX..however, I'm a big fan of a smoothness and the small little unique touches that make each gun fit its owner.

Regardless, I cannot speak highly enough of APEX Parts, I wont argue that a custom trigger job feels better, because I've honestly never had a custom job done by a reputable smith..so I have no grounds to compare to, but this trigger does feel very very good, the new sear smooths out the pull a LOT, as well as the Ultimate Striker block, very nice pieces from Apex, I think I'll measure the thickness of the OE sear vs the Hard Sear just to get some data out there based off the .pdf I linked to for the trigger job without replacing parts.

If anyone has any questions about dimensions, or weights, or any closer pictures of certain components please let me know and I'd be happy to get that info for you guys.

I have NOT put a pull gauge on my gun since these modifications, however my local gun store guy and very knowledgeable shooter (Dan @ Tri-Lakes Shooting Supply) has "finger tested" my weight to be about 3.5 lbs. We used as Rock Island 1911 as a comparison, knowing that they usually run around 4.0lbs.

Some may say that 3.5lbs is too light to carry...I say fuck you...if that gun comes out of the holster, It's for a damn good reason, and I'm gonna be smokin that trigger and working it for everything its got..

[NightCat]

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/581641_10152634174720217_1566932518_n.jpg
Got a little crazy with the iron.

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/72659_10152632126190217_463567341_n.jpg
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/382186_10152632125230217_2005088884_n.jpg

[mestes]

Looks great. I used the fss kit on my full size and did my own job on the compact with a ram. I actually prefer the fss kit but I like the feel of 1911s more. Either way I think s&w should have done more to these triggers from the factory.

[COeskimo]

Great read! I bought a M&P 9c and have all the same mods from APEX and like you am very pleased with the results. I liked your input on the trigger pull. Ha I feel the same way.