Tankless Water Heater Install

[Bailey Guns]

I'm gonna need a Rheem RTG-64XLP installed in a few days...probably toward the end of this week. Looking for someone from the forum before I start calling numbers from the book.

Should be pretty straightforward. Outside install, I believe water lines are in place/easily accessible, there's already a gas line to the existing unit that's being removed. Might need to have a holding tank removed. All I have is the heater. I do not have permit, shut-off valves, etc...

Also looking to have a propane heater installed in my shop, too.

Give me a PM if you're willing to come to Bailey for work.

Thanks.

[Rooskibar03]

Way jealous. Looked into one a few years back and the plumber told me it would cost me both an arm and leg to have it installed and wasn't worth the cost.

[10mm-man]

I'm gonna need a Rheem RTG-64XLP installed in a few days...probably toward the end of this week. Looking for someone from the forum before I start calling numbers from the book.

Should be pretty straightforward. Outside install, I believe water lines are in place/easily accessible, there's already a gas line to the existing unit that's being removed. Might need to have a holding tank removed. All I have is the heater. I do not have permit, shut-off valves, etc...

Also looking to have a propane heater installed in my shop, too.

Give me a PM if you're willing to come to Bailey for work.

Thanks.


I can give you a hand, and if we need to run gas I have a plumber for that. He is reasonable. If your wanting to pull permit, we will have to make arrangements but it's not a big deal. Easy to do and you will be one happy guy! I love the fact of never running out of hot water....[Beer]

[kwando]

Jealous as well, it's just my wife my son and I so I've been told that a regular 50 gal tank is enough. For large families it's worth it...

Keep us updated on who you use, my house is nearing 11 years and will need to look at replacing appliances

[Bailey Guns]

The Rheem was surprisingly inexpensive from an online source and highly recommended from what I read.

Unfortunately, I don't have the time or expertise to do the install. I could probably "Forest Gump" my way through it but I want it done right.

Got a few PMs I'm gonna follow up on. Thanks for the offers and responses.

[Bailey Guns]

UPDATE: The tankless water heater was installed. The only thing I need to do is install some heat-tape and insulation to the exposed water lines and build a small enclosure to protect them from the elements.

Even with water that comes out of the well at about 50 degrees, the Rheem provides very hot water at more than an adequate flow rate. So far, it's really amazing how well it works.

It turns out I probably could've installed this thing myself. But, not having the tools to thread some black pipe and a few other things...probably just as well I had someone do it. But it really wasn't difficult.

After about 3 weeks I'm very happy with it and would highly recommend looking into one if you need to replace a water heater. I might've done better to get an indoor model...but I didn't want to cut a 4" vent hole in the log wall.

[USMC88-93]

Without researching them, my primary concern would be that the "flow rate" from a tankless is similar to the flow rate from a standard tank, and that the "hot" from a tankless temperature wise is comparable (as good or better) to the temperature settings available on a tank.

I would not want to install one only to discover that I have both a reduced flow rate and a lower max temperature availability. I'm single without any children so the water temp is cranked up to scalding on my tank.

[Bailey Guns]

Flow rate from the one I have is >5gpm at 120 degrees. For the wife and I, that's way more than adequate.

[Ah Pook]

BG, does this unit have any problems heating colder water from the well?

Our well water can get down into the 40˚s in the winter. I really like the tankless idea.

[SNAFU]

BG actually the tankless are pretty easy to install huh?
Done quite a few,,Rinnai,,Bosch,,Rhem
3" hole saw?

Ah Pook got an inside pressure/ storage tank?

[Ah Pook]

BG actually the tankless are pretty easy to install huh?
Done quite a few,,Rinnai,,Bosch,,Rhem
3" hole saw?

Ah Pook got an inside pressure/ storage tank?
Got an outside water closet. The well outlet, water heater and pressure take are all in there. There is a heater inside the closet and lots of heat tape.

[Bailey Guns]

Our water is about 50 degrees right now and so far it's keeping it plenty hot. My fix for if it couldn't heat the well water hot enough was to get a small, electric or propane water heater (like a 20 gallon size) and put it in-line between the well and the tankless heater. I figured I could keep 20 gallons of water in the heater and only pre-heat it to 50 or 55 degrees then send it to the tankless heater. Probably only need to do that for a few months, too. I know it kinda defeats the purpose but I'm guessing this thing is gonna save a lot of propane so it's probably still more efficient than a standard water heater.

And we do have an indoor storage tank from our previous water heating unit. So, the water is generally gonna warm up just a bit over the well temp while sitting in the holding tank. I'm gonna see how that works before I start worrying about it.

We got an outside unit so the only thing I'm worried about is the water supply line freezing when it gets cold. That's why I'm putting the heat tape, insulation and box around the pipes. I didn't want to drill a big hole through our log wall for the vent. And the outdoor type seems to work fine for people in northern Europe...they're pretty popular there.

[van7559]

The biggest issue with tankless water heaters is the ratings you see are typically based of of sea level water temps. Our water temps here in CO are a hell of a lot cooler. Also a lot of the require a 3/4 gas line

[Ah Pook]

Guess I'll follow your progress this winter and see how it works. [Freeze]

[van7559]

Some thankless such as the nevian (sp.) Have buffer tanks built in to help with the cooler water temps

[Skullworks]

I was seriously looking at a Bosche unit at Lowes...

Then I found out - its IMPOSSIBLE to get a permit for one in El Paso County for a manufactured home.

At the time I was living alone and often not home 2-3 days in a row each week so I figured the fuel savings would really add up.

[earplug]

We instaled one when we put in a new furnace. New furnace took a side vent and the new tankless heater used the old roof mounted furnace vent.

[van7559]

All the ones I have installed either ran in 3 inch PVC vent or stupid expensive stainless vent. I am not a huge fan of them though.the savings is there if your situation fits the criteria. You average water heater is 40 k BTU. Where a navien thankless the smallest one I believe is 199 k BTU. Hence the need for a min. 3/4" gas line. So how much are you really saving firing that kinda BTU 's

[hghclsswhitetrsh]

It's silly to heat your water to 120 degrees with a tankless. Use the heated water feature on your dishwasher, set it at 100 degrees and minimal tempering in the shower. There's a mind set change that has to be done with tankless hot water.

[Bailey Guns]

120 degrees is just the thermostat setting. It's probably closer to 107 maybe. Wife wants it just slightly hotter than shower temp cause she likes rinsing dishes with hot water. I was fine with the water temp at about 102.

Women...

[Bailey Guns]

I wanted to revive this thread with an update after using the tankless for a winter season.

We encountered only one problem having the tankless heater and it wasn't really related to the unit at all. Thanksgiving saw heavy use of the kitchen propane-fired stove/oven a lot in conjunction with the Rheem propane water heater. The Rheem unit requires a LOT of propane to fire the 155k BTU burner. The kitchen stove seemed to never really get to the desired heat setting and the turkey came out a bit undercooked. After some thought I figured out why...we were using a lot of hot water in the kitchen and the stove/oven were in heavy use. Apparently the oven was being starved of propane and never reached the correct temp as a result. Next time, we'll know how to compensate for the heavy use. Other than that, no real issues.

But there are definitely pros/cons to the tankless system:

Pros:

They are more efficient at providing hot water in terms of energy use when used properly.
You'll don't run out of hot water.
Very small...takes up little room whether inside or out.
Relatively inexpensive compared to most of the better tank models.


Cons:

You really have to change some habits...like a quick hand-washing. Firing up the 155k burner for just a minute or so several times throughout the day will use more propane than a standard water heater.
Seems to take a little longer to get hot water to the faucet.
With cold well water (our's averaged about 41 degrees during the cold months) the water will only get so hot...probably about 104 degrees, give or take a degree. Plenty comfortable for a shower. But the water doesn't get sufficiently hot for washing some dishes that can't go into the dishwasher. We use a lot of cast iron and other non-dishwasher safe pans and such for cooking. Wife likes a very hot rinse for them which doesn't happen with this unit.

All in all I'm pretty satisfied and cab live with a tankless heater. The wife prefers a standard tank-type unit. But the bottom line is they will work and provide hot water, even in the higher and colder elevations (we're at about 8200 ft). I might be a bit more hesitant if I had a bigger house...or at least look into a bigger unit with stronger capabilities.

[10mm-man]

Cons:

You really have to change some habits...like a quick hand-washing. Firing up the 155k burner for just a minute or so several times throughout the day will use more propane than a standard water heater.
Seems to take a little longer to get hot water to the faucet.
With cold well water (our's averaged about 41 degrees during the cold months) the water will only get so hot...probably about 104 degrees, give or take a degree. Plenty comfortable for a shower. But the water doesn't get sufficiently hot for washing some dishes that can't go into the dishwasher. We use a lot of cast iron and other non-dishwasher safe pans and such for cooking. Wife likes a very hot rinse for them which doesn't happen with this unit.

All in all I'm pretty satisfied and cab live with a tankless heater. The wife prefers a standard tank-type unit. But the bottom line is they will work and provide hot water, even in the higher and colder elevations (we're at about 8200 ft). I might be a bit more hesitant if I had a bigger house...or at least look into a bigger unit with stronger capabilities.


Have you thought about running an under counter water heater- Insta hot? Not sure what they cost but this would prob solve that issue or the issues above.

[Bailey Guns]

Not really. I've heard of people doing that but it's not to the point where we've decided to do it.

[10mm-man]

Not really. I've heard of people doing that but it's not to the point where we've decided to do it.

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=instant+hot+water+dispenser&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=3311494065&hvpos=1s1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4348563191395947742&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&ref=pd_sl_5wshsepjf9_b

[Lurch]

Thanks for the info. I have always wondered about those and how well they did with cold well water.

[whitbaby]

Jealous as well, it's just my wife my son and I so I've been told that a regular 50 gal tank is enough. For large families it's worth it...

Keep us updated on who you use, my house is nearing 11 years and will need to look at replacing appliances

Hope the son isn't a typical teenager...they'll stay in the shower until ALL the hot water is gone! ... ALL OF IT!

[Ah Pook]

Thanks for the update. [Beer]

Nothing I didn't expect except for the propane usage problem.

[MarkCO]

I've done 3 fires caused by standard water heaters, and a dozen caused by Tankless. When you run the math, in most cases, they are not worth the trouble. A good commercial high efficiency water heater will cost more, but the fuel costs will be less in the long run. For an average family in a normal sized home, a 90% to 96% efficient tank commercial grade water heater will cost the least over it's lifetime. I have an AOSmith Vertex (only HE choice when we built the house) and we never run out of hot water, but there are now others on the market as well. I have about 50 failed water heaters in my shop at any one time, so I see a lot of them.

You do NOT want your water heater set less than about 120F. Read up on Legionnaires disease before you go telling people to turn their water heaters down to 100F.

[Gman]

I picked up a standard GE branded high efficiency water heater made by Rheem at Home Depot a couple of years ago. It was amazing to see how much larger the same tank size was with all of the extra insulation around the tank. My gas bill noticeably dropped and we have lots of hot water without the trade-offs.

If your fuel source is propane, it would be interesting to see what the overall costs are for a tankless vs. standard .

[dodgefreak8]

I've done 3 fires caused by standard water heaters, and a dozen caused by Tankless. When you run the math, in most cases, they are not worth the trouble. A good commercial high efficiency water heater will cost more, but the fuel costs will be less in the long run. For an average family in a normal sized home, a 90% to 96% efficient tank commercial grade water heater will cost the least over it's lifetime. I have an AOSmith Vertex (only HE choice when we built the house) and we never run out of hot water, but there are now others on the market as well. I have about 50 failed water heaters in my shop at any one time, so I see a lot of them.

You do NOT want your water heater set less than about 120F. Read up on Legionnaires disease before you go telling people to turn their water heaters down to 100F.

Legionnaires isn't "generally" considered a threat in a domestic drinking supply. It is more prevalent in situations such as cooling towers etc where open atmosphere is in contact with recycled water. If you are worried about legionnaires than simply adding cold water to the 120* hot water in a standard system to make 102* water would be just a much a threat to getting the disease.

Tankless water heaters are designed to run at temps around 105*. That is where the energy savings come from and the fact that you aren't maintaining 50 gals of water while not in use. The downsides to tankless are 1) you rarely recoup your installation costs in savings before you have to pay for repair parts. There are A TON of moving and expensive parts in a tankless heater. Also there is maintenance that should be done annually like descaling the heat exchanger. 2) the heater SHOULD give you whatever temp you ask of it but at a cost of flow. Internal valves reduce the flow through the heater in an attempt to reach the desired setting. 3) the savings calculations the manufacturers publish are given in an optimum environment with warmer incoming water temps and minimal usage. I've been a licensed plumber for over 10 years and I won't put one in my own home. There are better choices out there and better ways to improve efficiency within your home. All that being said, a lot of people enjoy them and in some cases like the OP where there are only a couple people in the home and minimal usage they are better than say a 50gal electric WH. But that depends on the cost of natural gas/propane at the time.

[Bailey Guns]

I work for a propane company...I get a pretty good price. :)

[dodgefreak8]

Also to clarify on legionnaires. You can't kill it unless temps are above 140* which MOST tankless WH won't reach unless programmed to do so. Rheems will go to 140 but it is unobtainable with Colorado's water temps.

[newracer]

The new house I am buying comes standard with a tankless water heater. I have two sons (11 and 14) that like to shower, we will see how it works.

[Dunecrazzy]

Legionnaires' disease is a type of pneumonia (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/pneumonia.html) caused by bacteria. You usually get it by breathing in mist from water that contains the bacteria. The mist may come from hot tubs, showers, or air-conditioning units for large buildings. The bacteria don't spread from person to person.
Symptoms of Legionnaires' disease include high fever, chills, a cough, and sometimes muscle aches and headaches. Other types of pneumonia have similar symptoms. You will probably need a chest x-ray to diagnose the pneumonia. Lab tests can detect the specific bacteria that cause Legionnaires' disease.
Most people exposed to the bacteria do not become sick. You are more likely to get sick if you


Are older than 50
Smoke
Have a chronic lung disease
Have a weak immune system

Legionnaires' disease is serious and can be life-threatening. However, most people recover with antibiotics.

I have yet to hear anyone in Colorado ever getting legionnaires for a water heater.
Could happen if you had a long dead end hot line where the water sat in for a log time. As long as there is flow to keep water circulation and you keep the build up of scale from your water heater you will be fine.