Log in

View Full Version : Different RoE for Normal Joes / Cops Appropriate?



Pancho Villa
09-24-2012, 08:56
This is not an anti-cop thread. If nothing else, our host is a cop and doesn't like it, and I'd rather talk than just see another thread locked.

So, in an earlier thread, it was mentioned that a cop shot a one armed, one legged guy due to pulling a pen. It was most certainly justified - for a police officer - to shoot under those circumstances.

What if you or I had done that, though? I may be wrong, but I am pretty sure if I tried to stop this guy harassing someone, and he pulled a pen and I shot him and defended it with "I didn't know what was in his hand," the prosecutor would immediately turn around and say "So you didn't KNOW your life was in danger and you STILL shot?" and I would be sent immediately to jail.

As a normal joe who has never soldiered or policed, I was taught that you only pull your piece when you want to fire, and you only fire when someone has manifested obvious and confirmed lethal intent to you or someone else nearby, with the ability to carry out that hostile intent.

So, a pulled (confirmed) gun, knife, etc., or just someone trying to beat the shit out of me.

If I did not hold to this standard, I would be held to be an irresponsible yahoo, put in jail and ridiculed for panicking when a guy pulled a pen on me, minus some really extenuating circumstances (night, someone breaks in, advances on me with a pen threatening my life, etc.)

Cops are held to a different standard. Do you think this is appropriate? Why or why not?

My view is that it is inappropriate. You can concoct various scenarios in which someone is shot and killed, or stabbed and killed or whatever, but these scenarios apply equally to regular joes and cops. You can say that cops face these sorts of situations more often, but they also volunteer for it and should be of the level headed mentality that can handle that, arguably.

Our justice system operates on the same principle, or tries to; we have very strict standards for conduct of the prosecutor/detectives, a very high standard to convict, a very harsh penalty when the rules are broken (usually the guy skips out "on a technicality.") This is to protect the innocent from being railroaded or simply put in jail due to inflamed passions or a zealous DA. I think our police should be held to similar standards in terms of when they shoot (and sometimes kill) people. At least to the same standards anyone else is - or at least anyone else who lives in a state that recognizes that a man has a right to defend life, property and dignity wherever he has the right to be.

What do you guys think?

exxonv
09-24-2012, 09:31
Hello Pancho, I think it's a sensitive subject for sure :).
I believe Police Officers are held to the same standards, however the process is different, and maybe that's why there is so much frustration.
The unfortunate situation in Houston is still under investigation, and there is a change the LEO involved will be charged and incarcerated. I don't think we can assume he'll walk free.
The LEO is under investigation for his actions and is home on administrative leave. A non-LEO would be held in jail until he/she could see a judge, and if bail was allowed (and made), then could go home. This is the difference that I see between the two groups.
I don’t know if that’s always best, but I will say that I do believe that if every LEO who was involved in any situation like this were immediately incarcerated until they could go through the investigation, we’d never find anyone who would be crazy enough to put that uniform on in the first place…
I wasn’t there, I have no first-hand knowledge, and thankfully, I won’t be called to make a decision. It is frustrating to see these sort of things happen, that’s for sure.

Great-Kazoo
09-24-2012, 09:32
"I didn't know what was in his hand,"

WRONG see #1. Keep your mouth shut.
ANYTHING YOU SAY CAN AND WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU

You gave the DA a closed case before you were arraigned.


Unless you are the one in said situation where deadly force is used. You will never know what really happened to warrant it. Sure the media and "leaked" reports will hit the airwaves. However until the full police report is accessible you don't know.
With that being said

1) ATTORNEY, ATTORNEY, ATTORNEY

2) IT is you and only you, that was in the position where deadly force at that moment in time was needed. In you mind.
IF YOU HESITATE you will be the victim.
IF YOU JUMP THE GUN (so to speak) and said threat was pulling out a map or other non threatening item. You need to assess in seconds, if that, what is and what is not a threat.

IF you felt deadly force was the only outcome who is anyone to second guess that choice. It was you or them. In you heart and mind that was your only choice, having the support of loved ones, friends and support groups will get you through those times.

One thing to remember handicapped, in a wheel chair old lady, blind person. ALL of them can or could be the one who takes someone's life.
JUST BECAUSE the appearance is one of non-threatening, to some.
CONSIDER anyone a potential threat.
When all is said and done
REMEMBER THIS
IF there is a way out (FLIGHT) Take it!!

dwalker460
09-24-2012, 09:34
It really depends on where you are at, and how good your lawyer is.

mcantar18c
09-24-2012, 09:38
Who says a pen can't be a lethal weapon?

Ronin13
09-24-2012, 09:43
"I didn't know what was in his hand,"

WRONG see #1. Keep your mouth shut.
ANYTHING YOU SAY CAN AND WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU

You gave the DA a closed case before you were arraigned.


Unless you are the one in said situation where deadly force is used. You will never know what really happened to warrant it. Sure the media and "leaked" reports will hit the airwaves. However until the full police report is accessible you don't know.
With that being said

1) ATTORNEY, ATTORNEY, ATTORNEY

2) IT is you and only you, that was in the position where deadly force at that moment in time was needed. In you mind.
IF YOU HESITATE you will be the victim.
IF YOU JUMP THE GUN (so to speak) and said threat was pulling out a map or other non threatening item. You need to assess in seconds, if that, what is and what is not a threat.

IF you felt deadly force was the only outcome who is anyone to second guess that choice. It was you or them. In you heart and mind that was your only choice, having the support of loved ones, friends and support groups will get you through those times.

One thing to remember handicapped, in a wheel chair old lady, blind person. ALL of them can or could be the one who takes someone's life.
JUST BECAUSE the appearance is one of non-threatening, to some.
CONSIDER anyone a potential threat.
When all is said and done
REMEMBER THIS
IF there is a way out (FLIGHT) Take it!!

THIS! I see the two way street here- PD most of the time uses their weapons to defuse a situation (ask how many times they've drawn, then out of those times actually used). I treat my weapon like the Secret Service- it doesn't get drawn unless it is going to be most likely used (not 100% of the time though)... and only if there is no doubt in my mind that immediate harm will come to me or my loved ones if I don't react with at least clearing the holster. And exactly what Jim said, you keep your mouth shut. If you're ever involved in a situation where you have to use deadly force, politely request that you choose to remain silent and will cooperate after speaking with an attorney, and will answer any and all questions only when said attorney is present. The moment you utter "lawyer" or a related term (attorney, legal counsel, etc) you do not have to answer any questions whatsoever without your lawyer present. [Beer]

Irving
09-24-2012, 09:44
Why can't non-leo, be held to same standard as leo, instead of the other way around; as mentioned by Pancho?

Remember the cop that went to tazer the cuffed guy on the train station floor, but shot him in the back and killer him instead? It was an accident, but did that guy just lose his job, or is he in jail?

KevDen2005
09-24-2012, 09:49
Justified lethal force is still justified lethal force.

Why would you talk without an attorney, I wouldn't?

Why would you put yourself on the stand? You aren't required to?

You may not be held in jail, in fact most likely not for a number of reasons, if you don't have a criminal record, along with other circumstances, and you are claiming this was self defense.