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Ah Pook
10-10-2012, 14:56
I don't follow road cycling but I can name one, and only one, cyclist. I'm not in favor of cheating but it sounds like the USADA is trying to close the barn door after all the animals have escaped.

11 teammates testified case against armstrong (http://news.yahoo.com/11-teammates-testified-case-against-armstrong-153604592--spt.html)

Lance Armstrong challenged the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency to name names and show what it had on him.
On Wednesday, it did.
The anti-doping group released a report on its case against Armstrong — a point-by-point roadmap of the lengths it says Armstrong went to in winning seven Tour de France titles USADA has ordered taken away.
In more than 150 pages filled with allegations, USADA names 11 former teammates — George Hincapie, Tyler Hamilton and Floyd Landis among them — as key witnesses.
It details the way those men and others say drugs were delivered and administered to Armstrong's teams. It discusses Armstrong's continuing relationship with and payments to a doctor, Michele Ferrari, years after Ferrari was sanctioned in Italy and Armstrong claimed to have broken ties with him.
It presents as matter-of-fact reality that winning and doping went hand in hand in cycling and that Armstrong's teams were the best at getting it done without getting caught. He won the Tour as leader of the U.S. Postal Service team from 1999-2004 and again in 2005 with the Discovery Channel as the primary sponsor.
The report also uses Armstrong's own words against him.
"We had one goal and one ambition and that was to win the greatest bike race in the world and not just to win it once, but to keep winning it," the report reads, quoting from testimony Armstrong gave in an earlier legal proceeding.
But, USADA said, the path Armstrong chose to pursue his goals "ran far outside the rules." It accuses him of depending on performance-enhancing drugs to fuel his victories and "more ruthlessly, to expect and to require that his teammates" do the same.
Armstrong did not fight the USADA charges, but insists he never cheated.
His attorney, Tim Herman, called the report "a one-sided hatchet job — a taxpayer funded tabloid piece rehashing old, disproved, unreliable allegations based largely on axe-grinders, serial perjurers, coerced testimony, sweetheart deals and threat-induced stories."
Aware of the criticism his agency has faced from Armstrong and his legion of followers, USADA Chief Executive Travis Tygart insisted his group handled this case under the same rules as any other. He pointed out that Armstrong was given the chance to take his case to arbitration and he declined, choosing in August to accept the sanctions instead.
"We focused solely on finding the truth without being influenced by celebrity or non-celebrity, threats, personal attacks or political pressure because that is what clean athletes deserve and demand," Tygart said.
Some of the newest information — never spelled out in detail before Wednesday — includes USADA's depiction of Armstrong's continuing relationship with Ferrari. Like Armstrong, he has received a lifetime ban from USADA.
Ferrari, long thought of as the mastermind of Armstrong's alleged doping plan, was investigated in Italy and Armstrong claimed he had cut ties with him after a 2004 conviction. USADA cites financial records that show payments of at least $210,000 in the two years after that.
"The repeated efforts by Armstrong and his representatives to mischaracterize and minimize Armstrong's relationship with Ferrari are indicative of the true nature of that relationship," the report states. "If there is not something to hide, there is no need to hide it and certainly no need to repeatedly lie about it."
In some ways, the USADA report simply pulls together and amplifies allegations that have followed Armstrong ever since he beat cancer and won the Tour for the first time. At various times and in different forums, Landis, Hamilton and others have said that Armstrong encouraged doping on his team and used banned substances himself.
While the arguments about Armstrong will continue among sports fans — and there is still a question of whether USADA or the International Cycling Union (UCI) has ultimate control of taking away his Tour titles — the new report puts a cap on a long round of official investigations. Armstrong was cleared of criminal charges in February after a federal grand jury probe that lasted about two years.
Tygart said evidence from 26 people, including 15 riders with knowledge of the U.S. Postal Service team's doping activities, provided material for the report. Other cyclists interviewed by USADA included Frankie Andreu, Michael Barry, Tom Danielson, Levi Leipheimer, Stephen Swart, Christian Vande Velde, Jonathan Vaughters and David Zabriskie.
Tygart said the evidence shows the code of silence that dominated cycling has been shattered.
"It took tremendous courage for the riders on the USPS Team and others to come forward and speak truthfully," he said. "It is not easy to admit your mistakes and accept your punishment. But that is what these riders have done for the good of the sport."
In a letter sent to USADA attorneys Tuesday, Herman dismissed any evidence provided by Landis and Hamilton, calling them "serial perjurers and have told diametrically contradictory stories under oath."
Hincapie's role in the investigation — not confirmed until Wednesday's report — could be more damaging, as he was one of Armstrong's closest and most loyal teammates through the years.
"Two years ago, I was approached by U.S. federal investigators, and more recently by USADA, and asked to tell of my personal experience in these matters," the cyclist said in a statement published shortly after USADA's release. "I would have been much more comfortable talking only about myself, but understood that I was obligated to tell the truth about everything I knew. So that is what I did."
Hincapie's two-page statement did not mention Armstrong by name.
Written in a more conversational style than a typical legal document, the report lays out in chronological order, starting in 1998 and running through 2009:
— Multiple examples of Armstrong using the blood-boosting hormone EPO, citing the "clear finding" of EPO in six blood samples from the 1999 Tour de France that were retested. UCI concluded those samples were mishandled and couldn't be used to prove anything. In bringing up the samples, USADA said it considers them corroborating evidence that isn't necessary given the testimony of its witnesses.
— Testimony from Hamilton, Landis and Hincapie, all of whom say they received EPO from Armstrong.
— Evidence of the pressure Armstrong put on the riders to go along with the doping program.
"The conversation left me with no question that I was in the doghouse and that the only way forward with Armstrong's team was to get fully on Dr. Ferrari's doping program," Vande Velde said in his testimony.
— What Vaughters called "an outstanding early warning system regarding drug tests." One example came in 2000, when Hincapie found out there were drug testers at the hotel where Armstrong's team was staying. Aware Armstrong had taken testosterone before the race, Hincapie alerted him and Armstrong dropped out of the race to avoid being tested, the report said.
Though she didn't testify, Armstrong's ex-wife, Kristin, is mentioned 30 times in the report.
In one episode, Armstrong asks her to wrap banned cortisone pills in tin foil to hand out to his teammates.
"Kristin obliged Armstrong's request by wrapping the pills and handing them to the riders. One of the riders remarked, 'Lance's wife is rolling joints,'" the report read. Attempts to reach Kristin Armstrong were unsuccessful.
In addition to Armstrong and Ferrari, another player in the Postal team circle, Dr. Luis Garcia del Moral, also received a lifetime ban as part of the case.
Three other members of the USPS team will take their cases to arbitration. They are team director Johan Bruyneel, team doctor Pedro Celaya and team trainer Jose "Pepe" Marti.
Armstrong chose not to pursue the case and instead accepted the sanction, though he has consistently argued that the USADA system was rigged against him, calling the agency's effort a "witch hunt" that used special rules it doesn't follow in all its other cases.
The UCI has asked for details of the case before it decides whether to sign off on the sanctions. It has has 21 days to appeal the case to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.
USADA has said it doesn't need UCI's approval and Armstrong's penalties already are in place.
UCI President Pat McQuaid, who is in China for the Tour of Beijing, did not respond to telephone calls from The Associated Press requesting comment.
The report also will go to the World Anti-Doping Agency, which also has the right to appeal, but so far has supported USADA's position in the Armstrong case.
ASO, the company that runs the Tour de France and could have a say in where Armstrong's titles eventually go, said it has "no particular comment to make on this subject."

DD977GM2
10-10-2012, 14:58
I wanna say I read somewhere that the USADA has no solid evidence or proof of his doping.

roberth
10-10-2012, 15:06
I wanna say I read somewhere that the USADA has no solid evidence or proof of his doping.

Yup, they got nothing. This is a witch hunt propelled by envy and jealousy.

DD977GM2
10-10-2012, 15:39
Yup, they got nothing. This is a witch hunt propelled by envy and jealousy.


Thats what I always have thought.

Irving
10-10-2012, 15:48
If it was shown that Neil Armstrong was blood doping, would that mean that he wasn't the first man to walk on the moon?

UncleDave
10-10-2012, 16:19
Nope Buzz gets the nod.

Ah Pook
10-10-2012, 16:22
If it was shown that Neil Armstrong was blood doping, would that mean that he wasn't the first man to walk on the moon?
No there would just be committees formed to bitch about it. "Buzz" Aldrin was probably doping also, he couldn't take the title.

BigDee
10-10-2012, 22:00
If he was doing steroids who really gives a shit? You think he's the only athlete who some titles doing steroids? I'll bet you everyone who finishes in the top 20 of the Tour De France does steroids.

I hope he didn't do it but even if he did oh well. He won 7 titles and just because some dumb ass commission says he didn't doesn't change the fact that he did.

sniper7
10-10-2012, 22:13
I don't care any more. Maybe they should just level the playing field and say ANYTHING GOES!

tmleadr03
10-10-2012, 22:31
I am just happy to say I now have won as many Tour de Frances titles as Lance has.

Delfuego
10-10-2012, 23:01
Lance Armstrong is the most ever drug tested individual in the world. He has pass over 500 drug tests! USADA does not even have the authority to strip his Tour titles, only the International Cycling Federation can do that.

This is more about one man's crusade than it is about cheating in sports. Why do we always try to destroy our heroes? Who wins if Lance is disgraced?

Please dont get me started on this subject, as I do give a shit about cycling. And people sometimes tend to spout ignorant shit around here about subjects the know very little about.

Delfuego out...

spyder
10-11-2012, 00:34
If it was shown that Neil Armstrong was blood doping, would that mean that he wasn't the first man to walk on the moon?


No there would just be committees formed to bitch about it. "Buzz" Aldrin was probably doping also, he couldn't take the title.
They would just say the lander won. [Beer]

GilpinGuy
10-11-2012, 01:32
It's a big deal? No.

Not really. To the vast majority of folks anyway.

Kinda funny now when I see all of those guys in the Canyon trying to be Lance. Got 1 nut and a bunch of drugs? You got a chance! [ROFL2][ROFL1][ROFL3][LOL]

rockhound
10-11-2012, 05:45
they have been after him forever, they are retesting blood from 1999 really?

how many other athletes have blood samples on file from 1999?

test it test again and when you are done test it again,

there is no way an american wins our race 7 times

speedysst
10-11-2012, 05:59
The report also uses Armstrong's own words against him.
"We had one goal and one ambition and that was to win the greatest bike race in the world and not just to win it once, but to keep winning it," the report reads, quoting from testimony Armstrong gave in an earlier legal proceeding.

Yeah well what the hell else would his goal be? He wouldnt be much of a team leader if he wanted everyone to come in 5th now would he?

Delfuego
10-11-2012, 09:04
there is no way an american wins our race 7 times The French love Lance, and the ICF dont really want to deal with this. This is one American USADA guys personal crusade.

DD977GM2
10-11-2012, 09:08
I am just happy to say I now have won as many Tour de Frances titles as Lance has.


When is the celebration party?[Beer]

DD977GM2
10-11-2012, 09:09
The French love Lance, and the ICF dont really want to deal with this. This is one American USADA guys personal crusade.

Makes me wonder what Lance didnt do for that individual, such as not have time for an autograph or some speaking engagement or fund raiser etc and the one guy is all butt hurt from that one time.

Delfuego
10-11-2012, 09:20
Trying to make his career on this one...

sniper7
10-11-2012, 09:43
Trying to make his career on this one...

Pretty pathetic, I hate to see these guys go through this crap. Somebody is trying to justify their jobs, make a name for themselves, or has a personal vendetta.

TFOGGER
10-11-2012, 09:54
If the US Justice Department can't find enough evidence to indict him in 27 months and after spending 9 million dollars, I find it curious that the USADA and Travis Tygart can fabri---er-- "uncover" all of this evidence. Their attitude of "physical evidence is unimportant, we have TESTIMONY" is astounding to me. Never mind that much of that "testimony" was obtained via threats, coercion, and sweetheart deals from admitted serial liars and cheats.

Fried Chicken Blowout
10-11-2012, 09:54
Any true competitior wouldn't want to accept the title if they stripped it from Lance. The whole thing is totally lame and goes to show you that there are people that want to control everything we do at any level

By the way I use performance enhancing steroids, but I will never win any forum posting titles so i don't have anything to fear a decade from now!

Delfuego
10-11-2012, 10:03
By the way I use performance enhancing steroids, but I will never win any forum posting titles so i don't have anything to fear a decade from now! * Asterisk please!!!!

Fried Chicken Blowout
10-11-2012, 10:14
Okay not being a high performance poster, I'm out of the loop on the asterisk call. What's that about?

Delfuego
10-11-2012, 10:54
Its a MLB (Baseball) reference about players who used steroids. They get in the record books, but with a asterisk next to their name.

jasonh*

sniper7
10-11-2012, 11:01
Okay not being a high performance poster, I'm out of the loop on the asterisk call. What's that about?

your post count will forever have an * next to it.

Fried Chicken Blowout
10-11-2012, 12:39
your post count will forever have an * next to it.

Funny stuff... I deserve it, I've got meds on the USADA prohibited list... Bad news, guess it doesn't pay to have arthritis... Now that I admitted it will I be banned for 6 months like the tattle tales that blew the whistle on Lance?

The stuff on the list is supprising...
http://www.usada.org/uploads/wada_prohibited_list_2012.pdf

Jer
10-11-2012, 13:55
Edited as my rant my take this thread off topic. I will say that Lance Armstrong has been successfully railroaded and anyone involved with this should be ashamed. I started a new thread here (http://www.ar-15.co/forums/showthread.php?p=672991#post672991) in case anyone wants to discuss the original post I had here.