View Full Version : Fight while carrying question...
So I posed this question in the GD topic "Self Defense?" but it would be appropriate info here if it can be answered...
The scenario is you are somewhere, you are carrying, and unable to deescalate a tense situation and a person wants to get into a fist fight with you, and there is no avoiding it. What do you do? Keep in mind variables like- What if the person is a better fighter than you? Bigger? Stronger? What happens when/if they discover you are armed? What if you are put in a position where you can be disarmed by your assailant? No I don't plan on getting in any fights, but since I carry just about all the time, I'm curious about your options in a case where a fight is unavoidable and flight is impossible.
I'll say it again: A credible threat of serious injury or death justifies a level of force necessary to end the threat(ETA: And no more).
That being said, I'll do what's necessary to avoid a fight, short of sustaining serious injury. With a firearm in my waistband, there's conveniently no room for any ego.
There is always an option to walk away. Being attacked is different. If im carrying i will always find a way to walk away or with as many cell phones out there someone can call for help. Just my opinion.
The scenario is you are somewhere, you are carrying, and unable to deescalate a tense situation and a person wants to get into a fist fight with you, and there is no avoiding it.
Which is about as likely as a meteor, carrying a Martian, landing in my back yard this afternoon.
In 46 years, I've yet to be involved in a fist fight. Common sense goes a long ways.
Anything can be avoided.
BPTactical
10-16-2012, 11:30
There is always an option to walk away. Being attacked is different. If im carrying i will always find a way to walk away or with as many cell phones out there someone can call for help. Just my opinion.
^^^
This should ALWAYS be your course of action, especially if carrying.
Just what are you going to do if the fight turns into a hugging match? Next thing you know you are killed with your own weapon.
Do anything and everything you can to prevent the altercation.
If all of the above fails and you are forced into a physical confrontation I would say keep it as distant and brief as possible and escape.
Well if you can't fight you get your ass kicked.
If you can't draw fast enough your gun is useless..
If you've let a threat get w/in 21' you're fucking retarded.
Or.. you're ronin. [Coffee]
Well if you can't fight you get your ass kicked.
If you can't draw fast enough your gun is useless..
If you've let a threat get w/in 21' you're fucking retarded.
Or.. you're ronin. [Coffee]
I can fight... I can draw pretty fast, and since I'm still (happily?) single, I don't let anyone get within 21". [Tooth]
BPTactical
10-16-2012, 12:29
Well if you can't fight you get your ass kicked.
If you can't draw fast enough your gun is useless..
If you've let a threat get w/in 21' you're fucking retarded.
Or.. you're ronin. [Coffee]
Bitch, meet slap[ROFL3]
Great-Kazoo
10-16-2012, 12:36
I can fight... I can draw pretty fast, and since I'm still (happily?) single, I don't let anyone get in 21". [Tooth]
How's the Colon [ROFL1] ?
How's the Colon [ROFL1] ?
zK9QHWvTCeM [LOL]
I'll say it again too... Disclaimer: This is my own personal thought and opinion.
If a fight is unavoidable, then you meet the resistance with unrelenting self-preservation and merciless vengeance. There is only one viable outcome - they die.
Hopefully, the smart person will see the danger in your eyes and their common sense warns them not to get involved with you...
Unfortunately, our society is not very smart these days.
Grandpa always replied when asked why he carried a gun, "Cause I'm too old to kill idiots with just my hands."
That being said, I've only been in one fistfight in my life that I couldn't walk away from or talk down. Yes, he ended in the hospital for a while. No, he didn't die (as my opinion dictates) as authorities were able to corral/step in in time. (High school, go figure)
Edit: Nowadays with a black belt, you HAVE to find a way to talk/get out of a fight... too many repercussions. It's never to late to talk down, walk away... unless someone is sticking a gun in your face, which it might be too late by then anyways, lol.
I'll say it again too... Disclaimer: This is my own personal thought and opinion.
If a fight is unavoidable, then you meet the resistance with unrelenting self-preservation and merciless vengeance. There is only one viable outcome - they die.
Hopefully, the smart person will see the danger in your eyes and their common sense warns them not to get involved with you...
Unfortunately, our society is not very smart these days.
Grandpa always replied when asked why he carried a gun, "Cause I'm too old to kill idiots with just my hands."
That being said, I've only been in one fistfight in my life that I couldn't walk away from or talk down. Yes, he ended in the hospital for a while. No, he didn't die (as my opinion dictates) as authorities were able to corral/step in in time. (High school, go figure)
Edit: Nowadays with a black belt, you HAVE to find a way to talk/get out of a fight... too many repercussions. It's never to late to talk down, walk away... unless someone is sticking a gun in your face, which it might be too late by then anyways, lol.
I totally understand that- but the last fight I was in (last year- I think about this time too) was the first fight in a very very long time... It was unavoidable as I got into a verbal altercation when he grabbed me and cocked his fist back, PTSD kicked in (flight at this point wasn't in the cards) and I gave him a lesson in 'why you shouldn't grab a veteran who suffers from PTSD' and when people swarmed I let off, and walked away. I walked back to my car and he confronted me again- I told him I didn't want to fight anymore and I was done, tried my best to defuse the situation, he came at me and the fight was pretty much back on. I will try my best to never let something like that happen ever again, but it's not easy for me to "just walk away" when someone provokes me past the point of no return (IE: I don't have a flight sense anymore- thanks Uncle Sam :rolleyes:).
I totally understand that- but the last fight I was in (last year- I think about this time too) was the first fight in a very very long time... It was unavoidable as I got into a verbal altercation when he grabbed me and cocked his fist back, PTSD kicked in (flight at this point wasn't in the cards) and I gave him a lesson in 'why you shouldn't grab a veteran who suffers from PTSD' and when people swarmed I let off, and walked away. I walked back to my car and he confronted me again- I told him I didn't want to fight anymore and I was done, tried my best to defuse the situation, he came at me and the fight was pretty much back on. I will try my best to never let something like that happen ever again, but it's not easy for me to "just walk away" when someone provokes me past the point of no return (IE: I don't have a flight sense anymore- thanks Uncle Sam :rolleyes:).
Where were you when this happened? Do you still go there?
I hope not.
Be safe.
Where were you when this happened? Do you still go there?
I hope not.
Be safe.
It was a Halloween party- We were friends with someone who knew the person hosting the party, aside from our friend, I haven't been around any of the people from that party. They were all younger anyway (21-23).
BPTactical
10-16-2012, 14:42
It was unavoidable as I got into a verbal altercation
Would not a verbal altercation be avoidable?
....It was unavoidable as I got into a verbal altercation....
....I will try my best to never let something like that happen ever again, but it's not easy for me to "just walk away" when someone provokes me past the point of no return (IE: I don't have a flight sense anymore- thanks Uncle Sam :rolleyes:).
I've highlighted your problem for ya. I've had plenty of people talk shit, and so have a bunch of other people on this forum, the difference Ronin, is that we know that they are just meaningless words and not risking our freedom over. You can either choose to let them affect you, or not, it's up to you. My 9 year old has learned this, and you should too. You can pretty much always get out of a fight. The few times you can't, the person has ulterior motives and probably wants to do serious harm to you, and at that point, you use all force available to you.
SuperiorDG
10-16-2012, 14:49
I totally understand that- but the last fight I was in (last year- I think about this time too) was the first fight in a very very long time... It was unavoidable as I got into a verbal altercation when he grabbed me and cocked his fist back, PTSD kicked in (flight at this point wasn't in the cards) and I gave him a lesson in 'why you shouldn't grab a veteran who suffers from PTSD' and when people swarmed I let off, and walked away. I walked back to my car and he confronted me again- I told him I didn't want to fight anymore and I was done, tried my best to defuse the situation, he came at me and the fight was pretty much back on. I will try my best to never let something like that happen ever again, but it's not easy for me to "just walk away" when someone provokes me past the point of no return (IE: I don't have a flight sense anymore- thanks Uncle Sam :rolleyes:).
You are making a case that people with PTSD should not be allowed to carry.[Bang]
You are making a case that people with PTSD should not be allowed to carry.[Bang]
Not saying that at all- I've never felt the need to pull my weapon, I'm cognizant of my surroundings and do my best to avoid or defuse situations that have the potential to turn ugly. My mind frame while carrying is different than that of while not- I understand that while carrying things can become a bit more extreme, while not carrying if a verbal altercation (which some of you, no offense, need lessons in reading comprehension- I said unavoidable when he grabbed me after it began as a verbal altercation) starts to turn violent, I normally would try to deescalate or defuse or simply attempt to walk away, but in instances where the other party takes it too far and put a hand on me I don't flee... Take that however you choose, but I have yet to unlawfully use force (at any level) and do not ever plan to.
Zundfolge
10-16-2012, 16:42
In 46 years, I've yet to be involved in a fist fight. Common sense goes a long ways.
Agreed.
Considering some of the places I used to hang out, if I could get through my 20s without being close to being involved in a fist fight, then anyone can.
At this point if someone wants to start a fight with me they're going to have to very quickly escalate things to a level where I'd be justified in shooting them anyway.
I pretty much got over fighting in middle school. Verbal altercation? No such thing. If someone starts getting mouthy, I quietly head for the door. Either someone needs to be shot or they don't. Just my two cents.
Good question.
I would say depends on types of Halloween Party.
If it held at CU or some Fast food after work Halloween party, I would probably not go there.
If it is a Halloween party held at church or professional gathering, there are less risk of crazy@ss turd tries to be a martial art/MMA/UFC fighter.
It was a Halloween party- We were friends with someone who knew the person hosting the party, aside from our friend, I haven't been around any of the people from that party. They were all younger anyway (21-23).
Where were you when this happened? Do you still go there?
I hope not.
Be safe.
BlasterBob
10-16-2012, 18:34
Well if you can't fight you get your ass kicked.
If you can't draw fast enough your gun is useless..
If you've let a threat get w/in 21' you're fucking retarded. Or.. you're ronin. [Coffee]
Monky says 21' (feet) and Ronin says 21" (inches).
I think I'll stick with Monky on this distance.[Tooth]
Mick-Boy
10-16-2012, 19:42
I'm not buying it Ronin. Flight is always an option and PTSD or service overseas isn't an excuse for getting into stupid fights over ego. One of the biggest things I learned that's kept me out of fights is that *no one cares* if you're the coolest kid in the room. You shouldn't either.
I've spent a lot of time around genuinely hard dudes. Guys that have killed more people than cancer and look like an African dictator in their dress uniform. One of the things that these men have taught me is that ego detracts from learning. Cruising into a room with a chip on your shoulder trying to compare dick size with every type A personality in the joint is a sure way to be branded an asshole and probably take a pretty good beating in the process.
Someone trying to start scrap either has an emotional or a financial interest in that fight. Stow the ego. Let them be the coolest kid in the room. It doesn't cost you anything.
So your original question was what to do about fighting while carrying.
Don't.
Getting into a fight with a gun or a knife on your body means that tool is in play.
If they have an emotional investment in the fight, deescalate (It can be done. I promise). If they have a financial investment make the cost/benefit unpalatable by whatever means necessary.
I pretty much got over fighting in middle school. Verbal altercation? No such thing. If someone starts getting mouthy, I quietly head for the door. Either someone needs to be shot or they don't. Just my two cents.
Disagree here. The law says you can meet force or the credible threat of force with sufficient force to end the threat. Someone grabbing my shoulder does not merit a bullet, more likely a quick trip to the ground and some soreness when they sober up. I agree, words don't justify blows, but in MOST cases, a swing doesn't justify a lethal response.http://www.abandonia.com/vbullet/images/smilies/generic/ninja
I dont carry during the day because i know im going to get in a altercation that usually leads to something physical. It Is my job so i cant walk away or backdown. When im off work i walk away everytime even if i know i can take the person. My freedom means more to me than my ego. I have children that depend on me to provide for them, i cant do that in jail. My chip on my shoulder ends at 5pm mon-fri.
I'll say it again: A credible threat of serious injury or death justifies a level of force necessary to end the threat(ETA: And no more).
That being said, I'll do what's necessary to avoid a fight, short of sustaining serious injury. With a firearm in my waistband, there's conveniently no room for any ego.
^ +1[UZI]
So your original question was what to do about fighting while carrying.
Don't.
I will quickly speak from experience here. I have been in a fist fight while carrying. I chose not to draw due to the circumstances and because it wasn't worth it. I got my jaw knocked - big fricking deal. He swung again and I locked him up and the situation quickly de-escalated from there.
More detail for those that care:
When the cops came and questioned everyone the officer asked about my knife in my pocket. I told them that I was carrying, the cop took my gun from me, and then asked why I didn't use it. I told them it wasn't worth the financial cost and all the pain and strife that would go along with killing someone in a bar fight (the other guy was drunk - I was in the bar but not drinking). The cop laughed and gave my gun back to me -- I overheard him telling his partner that I was carrying and his partner lecturing the other guy and his friends that they were lucky none of them were dead.
Everyone around told the cops that I kept trying to defuse the guy and that he took a cheap shot on me. The cop thanked me for my restraint and I went home.
Long and short it takes two people to actually fight.
TFOGGER- I think I may have worded what I said less specifically than I should have. I think you and I are in agreement, the only reason for lethal force is a legit threat of severe harm or death. Some guy calling me names or taking a swing at me doesn't rate. I guess what I meant is that there is either a real threat to my life or there isn't. As to the original question, the last thing I am going to do is allow someone to grab what ever weapon I have on me for something silly like words.
newracer
10-16-2012, 21:11
IMO Ronin you should not carry.
IMO Ronin you should not carry.
What's worse is he wants to be a cop.
anaphylaxis
10-16-2012, 21:39
So I posed this question in the GD topic "Self Defense?" but it would be appropriate info here if it can be answered...
The scenario is you are somewhere, you are carrying, and unable to deescalate a tense situation and a person wants to get into a fist fight with you, and there is no avoiding it. What do you do? Keep in mind variables like- What if the person is a better fighter than you? Bigger? Stronger? What happens when/if they discover you are armed? What if you are put in a position where you can be disarmed by your assailant? No I don't plan on getting in any fights, but since I carry just about all the time, I'm curious about your options in a case where a fight is unavoidable and flight is impossible.
Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy...
If its obvious there's a disparity of force and bad guy demonstrates AOJ, I'm going to equalize matters quickly. If bad guy goes for my gun, I guarantee it isn't to borrow it, I'm going to use it as well.
In any event, I seek to always avoid confrontations, or if involved in one without my choosing, will try to avoid escalation. I always have a less-lethal option available as well, taser C2, OC or (most often) a kubotan.
Great-Kazoo
10-16-2012, 22:10
IMO Ronin you should not carry.
In a backpack @ King Soopers. Remember that tasty morsel of a post, which R13 Was not the OP.
Fentonite
10-17-2012, 00:55
I'm not buying it Ronin. Flight is always an option and PTSD or service overseas isn't an excuse for getting into stupid fights over ego. One of the biggest things I learned that's kept me out of fights is that *no one cares* if you're the coolest kid in the room. You shouldn't either.
I've spent a lot of time around genuinely hard dudes. Guys that have killed more people than cancer and look like an African dictator in their dress uniform. One of the things that these men have taught me is that ego detracts from learning. Cruising into a room with a chip on your shoulder trying to compare dick size with every type A personality in the joint is a sure way to be branded an asshole and probably take a pretty good beating in the process.
Someone trying to start scrap either has an emotional or a financial interest in that fight. Stow the ego. Let them be the coolest kid in the room. It doesn't cost you anything.
So your original question was what to do about fighting while carrying.
Don't.
Getting into a fight with a gun or a knife on your body means that tool is in play.
If they have an emotional investment in the fight, deescalate (It can be done. I promise). If they have a financial investment make the cost/benefit unpalatable by whatever means necessary.
That may be the most wisdom in a single post. Ever.
While I agree walking away is always possible and the best option, lets assume Ronin's scenario is unavoidable. Is letting the aggressor know you're armed, either verbally or an "accidental" peak, be "wise". In the OP's "unavoidable" situation is a possible "brandishing/menacing" charge worth it?
Great-Kazoo
10-17-2012, 08:04
While I agree walking away is always possible and the best option, lets assume Ronin's scenario is unavoidable. Is letting the aggressor know you're armed, either verbally or an "accidental" peak, be "wise". In the OP's "unavoidable" situation is a possible "brandishing/menacing" charge worth it?
No warning. That may get turned around to a He threatened me with a weapon and I acted, scenario
IMO Ronin you should not carry.
Molon Labe...
What's worse is he wants to be a cop.
I say this with all due respect... but you don't know me, you base your opinion on what I post here, but have you really ever taken the time to get to know me? I'll answer that for you, no. I really don't understand your hostile and unwelcome nature towards me... I guess you really don't like me, BFD, I don't care. I will say Jim and I have had our spats, and I realize that most of the time he is ribbing (the way he does it may be rough, but hey, thick skin needed around him). YOU on the other hand, you just never let up... I should just hit that ignore button... but sometimes you have valuable input in some of the discussions... I'll ask politely to please stop making false assumptions about me- your negativity is getting annoying.
To everyone else- situations dictate response... Not every situation you can just walk away. Without going into too much detail, this guy started an argument with me (subject doesn't matter), got in my face to where I had my back against a window, I asked him to get out of my face and that I didn't have time to have a pissing match with him. His two friends were on his right and moved to a position on my left flank. My defense mode came into play, and I asked him again to back off, I was done with the argument. That's when he grabbed me, I had no where to go, and I acted as trained. I knew from the get-go the guy was looking for a fight that evening (hindsight), my friends all were in agreement that it was a lose-lose situation and I handled it correctly.
Where things did get out of hand was when he confronted me at my car outside. I guess he wanted retribution for my reaction to his grabbing me. Again, I attempted to defuse the situation, he wasn't hearing it, and there was again no where to go. Should I have avoided the argument? Yes. But when someone makes a firm decision to have a problem with you, and they don't want to back down (verbally or physically, doesn't matter does it?) and they want to pursue the issue (in this case alcohol was involved- 1 drink, so leaving was not an option at that time) I ask how can you really be proactive in avoiding the situation? Lock myself in my car? Call 911? C'mon, let's be realistic here. [Beer]
ChunkyMonkey
10-17-2012, 10:46
A responsible grown up should not put him/herself in that position in the first place. Take it as a lesson and move on.
I dont know how many times I apologized and moved on when someone pumped his chest over the silliest thing. Who give a fvck - when I am carrying, I am calmer more than ever.
Goodburbon
10-17-2012, 10:58
Molon Labe...
I say this with all due respect... but you don't know me, you base your opinion on what I post here, but have you really ever taken the time to get to know me? I'll answer that for you, no. I really don't understand your hostile and unwelcome nature towards me... I guess you really don't like me, BFD, I don't care. I will say Jim and I have had our spats, and I realize that most of the time he is ribbing (the way he does it may be rough, but hey, thick skin needed around him). YOU on the other hand, you just never let up... I should just hit that ignore button... but sometimes you have valuable input in some of the discussions... I'll ask politely to please stop making false assumptions about me- your negativity is getting annoying.
To everyone else- situations dictate response... Not every situation you can just walk away. Without going into too much detail, this guy started an argument with me (subject doesn't matter), got in my face to where I had my back against a window, I asked him to get out of my face and that I didn't have time to have a pissing match with him. His two friends were on his right and moved to a position on my left flank. My defense mode came into play, and I asked him again to back off, I was done with the argument. That's when he grabbed me, I had no where to go, and I acted as trained. I knew from the get-go the guy was looking for a fight that evening (hindsight), my friends all were in agreement that it was a lose-lose situation and I handled it correctly.
Where things did get out of hand was when he confronted me at my car outside. I guess he wanted retribution for my reaction to his grabbing me. Again, I attempted to defuse the situation, he wasn't hearing it, and there was again no where to go. Should I have avoided the argument? Yes. But when someone makes a firm decision to have a problem with you, and they don't want to back down (verbally or physically, doesn't matter does it?) and they want to pursue the issue (in this case alcohol was involved- 1 drink, so leaving was not an option at that time) I ask how can you really be proactive in avoiding the situation? Lock myself in my car? Call 911? C'mon, let's be realistic here. [Beer]
When I was a Mental health tech we had a really Hot nurse that would work nights with me. One time a patient decided he had the hots for her. He waited until she was alone on the unit, walked up and physically blocked her into the nurses' station. No way out. He told her he was going to have his way with her. She said, "ok I've got to pee." and walked right past him. Crisis averted. Situation completely defused.
Your situation was avoidable with creativity.[Beer]
Great-Kazoo
10-17-2012, 12:09
When I was a Mental health tech we had a really Hot nurse that would work nights with me. One time a patient decided he had the hots for her. He waited until she was alone on the unit, walked up and physically blocked her into the nurses' station. No way out. He told her he was going to have his way with her. She said, "ok I've got to pee." and walked right past him. Crisis averted. Situation completely defused.
Your situation was avoidable with creativity.[Beer]
Redirection, diffuse and move on, or out of the way. If in a bar, they have these things called bouncers.
Anyone can be a man, a real man tries to avoid the situation in the first place.
Feel the need to measure dicks great, you're more of a man than i am, again move on or redirect.
newracer
10-17-2012, 14:06
Molon Labe...
I am not going to take it from you, but that statement in this context just strengthens my opinion. By your own admission you have PTSD and problems with making correct decisions and staying out of trouble. You should be man enough to seriously consider not carrying.
I am not going to take it from you, but that statement in this context just strengthens my opinion. By your own admission you have PTSD and problems with making correct decisions and staying out of trouble. You should be man enough to seriously consider not carrying.
Wow... did I ever say I have problems making correct decisions and staying out of trouble? Nope... but hey, it was nice of you to try to put words in my mouth. I said I have PTSD and when a situation gets too far I no longer have the flight instinct, only fight- but not making "correct decisions." Funny, you sound EXACTLY like those asshat people on "Obama's team" who would think that returning combat veterans are potential terrorists. I had ONE (I bold the parts so maybe your very poor reading comprehension can absorb the info) instance that got out of hand, and for the most part was difficult to avoid or defuse. You should be man enough to not read things wrong and suggest from (again) ONE situation that I should lock away the most effective means of self protection and exercise of my 2nd Amendment right... Fuck you, your opinion is too similar to the Brady Bunch for my tastes.
Well... this is getting exciting...
Walk away boys.... walk away.
Redirection, diffuse and move on, or out of the way. If in a bar, they have these things called bouncers.
Anyone can be a man, a real man tries to avoid the situation in the first place.
Feel the need to measure dicks great, you're more of a man than i am, again move on or redirect.
I would have to go with this....
I don't know what originally got you into that situation Ronin, but whatever the arguement was, you could have easily said "you're correct, my bad..." and left it at that. Is that something that you are going to want to say since it might make you look like a pussy/idiot to others? No, you won't want to say it, but who gives a crap about "others" in the grown up world man. Think back to what started the pissin match and think about where you could have eaten crow, and gotten out of the situation in the first place. I've learned to stay away from immature crowds, those were for my foolish "young" days, some day, you will reach that point also.
Now, to the point where they had you pinned... You should have tried walking to his left or right before the friends surrounded you. If he tried to forcibly restrain you while you were trying to get away, put him on the floor.
Like everyone has said, you should not have put yourself in that position to begin with. Something happened somewhere in that night's timeline that made him come to you, it was at that point that you should have diffused the situation and not let it go any further.
Goodburbon
10-17-2012, 21:31
Wow... did I ever say I have problems making correct decisions and staying out of trouble? Nope... but hey, it was nice of you to try to put words in my mouth. I said I have PTSD and when a situation gets too far I no longer have the flight instinct, only fight- but not making "correct decisions." Funny, you sound EXACTLY like those asshat people on "Obama's team" who would think that returning combat veterans are potential terrorists. I had ONE (I bold the parts so maybe your very poor reading comprehension can absorb the info) instance that got out of hand, and for the most part was difficult to avoid or defuse. You should be man enough to not read things wrong and suggest from (again) ONE situation that I should lock away the most effective means of self protection and exercise of my 2nd Amendment right... Fuck you, your opinion is too similar to the Brady Bunch for my tastes.
You cant take things like this personally and make a good cop. A serious self re-evaluation is in order
newracer
10-17-2012, 22:56
Wow... did I ever say I have problems making correct decisions and staying out of trouble? Nope... but hey, it was nice of you to try to put words in my mouth. I said I have PTSD and when a situation gets too far I no longer have the flight instinct, only fight- but not making "correct decisions." Funny, you sound EXACTLY like those asshat people on "Obama's team" who would think that returning combat veterans are potential terrorists. I had ONE (I bold the parts so maybe your very poor reading comprehension can absorb the info) instance that got out of hand, and for the most part was difficult to avoid or defuse. You should be man enough to not read things wrong and suggest from (again) ONE situation that I should lock away the most effective means of self protection and exercise of my 2nd Amendment right... Fuck you, your opinion is too similar to the Brady Bunch for my tastes.
I only offer some sensible advice and you respond with "Fuck you," again your posts only make my opinion about you stronger. And remember it is just that, my opinion. I just feel that you may make a mistake one day that will cost you dearly.
I only offer some sensible advice and you respond with "Fuck you," again your posts only make my opinion about you stronger. And remember it is just that, my opinion. I just feel that you may make a mistake one day that will cost you dearly.
Sensible advice? I'm not going to apologize because I feel that you went a little too far with the "be a man and don't carry" comment. Had you said "It is my honest opinion, from what I've read in this topic, you may want to consider leaving your gun at home when going to parties and other places where alcohol is involved..." I would be perfectly fine with that, and agree, as that is something I already do. I do apologize about the fuck you comment, that was a little too much, but the tone you took I found to be over the line.
Goodburbon, I understand what you're saying, and I try to not take things personally- especially not in a professional setting, but the "be a man don't carry" is a little too much for me to not take personally... It's one thing to make a comment like I stated above as a great alternative, it's another to insinuate that I lack the maturity and self-control to be armed in one person's opinion.
And finally, any mistake I make in life, that's mine to deal with, and it's my responsibility to be accountable for it. I try to keep a level head and rational demeanor about all decision, big or small, and in one instance things got out of hand- but I will tell you that I have not been in really any fights since my freshman year of high school (with the exception of the one I explained) and haven't been in any since this instance... Yes, avoidance and walking away is the best policy- but for my OP, what about that 1 in 100 where it's not? That's all I was asking, because there is a very rare possibility where there is no avoiding it...
Mick-Boy
10-18-2012, 11:09
If there is just no avoiding it you must never, ever forget that there is at least one gun in play.
Learn how to fight smart. Stay on your feet and stay conscious.
Some of the things you can get away with in the gym will get you killed when there is a gun or knife involved.
Practice for when things really go sideways. Find some guys and start rolling in your CCW gear. Try to access the gun mid-fight. Try to keep your opponent from accessing your gun. Learn how to make enough space to disengage safely.
Seek additional training. BJJ or MMA is great but something that includes the use of tools (guns/knives) is much, much better. If you have any friends in Group, find a guy that is a SOCP instructor. Greg Thompson knows his shit. Check out the ECQC course from Shivworks too.
If there is just no avoiding it you must never, ever forget that there is at least one gun in play.
Learn how to fight smart. Stay on your feet and stay conscious.
Some of the things you can get away with in the gym will get you killed when there is a gun or knife involved.
Practice for when things really go sideways. Find some guys and start rolling in your CCW gear. Try to access the gun mid-fight. Try to keep your opponent from accessing your gun. Learn how to make enough space to disengage safely.
Seek additional training. BJJ or MMA is great but something that includes the use of tools (guns/knives) is much, much better. If you have any friends in Group, find a guy that is a SOCP instructor. Greg Thompson knows his shit. Check out the ECQC course from Shivworks too.
Thanks for that- but I would add- when sparing in ccw gear- use those blue training guns [Coffee]
But yeah I really do want to work on a self-defense class and get better at hand-to-hand as well as shooting- especially if I try to get on JCSO.
Mick-Boy
10-18-2012, 12:05
Thanks for that- but I would add- when sparing in ccw gear- use those blue training guns [Coffee]
I like the blade-tech training barrels (http://www.blade-tech.com/RUSH-7-9-DAYS-Training-Barrel-pr-1018.html) because you can still mechanically work the gun but whatever.
I like the blade-tech training barrels (http://www.blade-tech.com/RUSH-7-9-DAYS-Training-Barrel-pr-1018.html) because you can still mechanically work the gun but whatever.
For $14, this seems like the right answer. My only question is what type of material they use, and how durable it would be for dry firing.
I like the blade-tech training barrels (http://www.blade-tech.com/RUSH-7-9-DAYS-Training-Barrel-pr-1018.html) because you can still mechanically work the gun but whatever.
Hell yeah, that's way better than the blue guns we had for disarming training in my PSD course... Weight comparison was kind of an issue- We found a fully loaded M9 vs an M9 blue gun was a tad bit different- plus the metal vs plastic decreased realism -maybe for good, since we got a little rough a few times and a metal gun would probably be cause for some minor cuts and bruises- but train how you fight! [Beer]
There are a lot of great posts in this thread. I agree whole heartedly that common sense will win by helping you avoid the confrontation to begin with. I know there are rare circumstances when you cannot avoid the confrontation. My EDC tools include; firearm, spare magazine, fixed blade knife, and an LED G2 flashlight. Flashlight is a great defensive tool and can buy you time to distract the douche waffle long enough to possible exfil out of the area. If not, it can help in going on the offensive if need be.
In regard to the 21' rule as mentioned earlier, that is one of the reasons for the knife. Still a tool, but everyone knows that when the line is crossed and swords have met, the man with the gun is of little use. The knife also serves as a tool if someone were to see that I was armed (which in that case I've failed) and were to go for my gun. All in all, it boils down to situational awareness. Keep your eyes & ears peeled, and keep you nose out of your iPhone. [Beer]
Check out the ECQC course from Shivworks too.
Southnarc will run you absolutely ragged - but god damned was that an incredibly excellent class. I just wish I had taken more notes - hard to remember everything when so much good info is coming at you so damn fast.
There are a lot of great posts in this thread. I agree whole heartedly that common sense will win by helping you avoid the confrontation to begin with. I know there are rare circumstances when you cannot avoid the confrontation. My EDC tools include; firearm, spare magazine, fixed blade knife, and an LED G2 flashlight. Flashlight is a great defensive tool and can buy you time to distract the douche waffle long enough to possible exfil out of the area. If not, it can help in going on the offensive if need be.
In regard to the 21' rule as mentioned earlier, that is one of the reasons for the knife. Still a tool, but everyone knows that when the line is crossed and swords have met, the man with the gun is of little use. The knife also serves as a tool if someone were to see that I was armed (which in that case I've failed) and were to go for my gun. All in all, it boils down to situational awareness. Keep your eyes & ears peeled, and keep you nose out of your iPhone. [Beer]
Damn good advice- I usually pack a knife as well- and I need a new pocket flashlight (mine's a blue LED and it isn't as effective). Good thing I don't have an iPhone huh? [Coffee]
Eggysrun
10-18-2012, 22:12
I had a guy show me was packing a gun when he thought it'd be a good idea to start a fight over a parking spot. I was carrying at the time too, in a tense moment like that I simply asked if he thought he was a faster draw then me. Some people out there think they're the only people packing so they can do dumb shit. I wish I could have walked away from that one but he decided to block me in my spot with his giant pickup truck. Long story short I called the police, moron was in the process of drawing his gun when I got my phone out of my pocket :(
Lex_Luthor
10-19-2012, 00:16
^^ yikes! That's one thing that's incredibly lame, but way more scary than I'd like. The last thing I'd want to encounter is a gunfight over a stupid parking spot. Some people's kids...
^^ yikes! That's one thing that's incredibly lame, but way more scary than I'd like. The last thing I'd want to encounter is a gunfight over a stupid parking spot. Some people's kids...
Yeah, that does sound scary... That's part of that gray area- if you feel absolutely threatened then hell yeah, shoot him, but best course of action, if he won't budge and insists, get the po-lice on the horn and let them help deal with the dumb shit. [Beer] It's people like that who make me believe in retroactive abortions.
Eggysrun
10-19-2012, 10:37
Yeah, that does sound scary... That's part of that gray area- if you feel absolutely threatened then hell yeah, shoot him, but best course of action, if he won't budge and insists, get the po-lice on the horn and let them help deal with the dumb shit. [Beer] It's people like that who make me believe in retroactive abortions.
Yeah it was definately one of those moments I thought to myself "jesus christ, after everything I've been through (iraq) I'm gonna get shot over a freaking parking spot"
It's funny when people think it's more dangerous overseas, when in reality there's more ass clowns back home than over there lol
Yeah it was definately one of those moments I thought to myself "jesus christ, after everything I've been through (iraq) I'm gonna get shot over a freaking parking spot"
It's funny when people think it's more dangerous overseas, when in reality there's more ass clowns back home than over there lol
Well I'd rather walk alone at night in 5 points than I would almost anywhere in Afghanistan... But yeah, here people are less predictable. And yes, that would be pretty freaking stupid to be shot over something stupid and petty- but there are people like that. [Bang]
Mick-Boy
10-20-2012, 07:59
“Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.”
― Robert E. Howard (http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/66700.Robert_E_Howard)
whiskeyjack
10-20-2012, 10:45
Well if you can't fight you get your ass kicked.
If you can't draw fast enough your gun is useless..
If you've let a threat get w/in 21' you're fucking retarded.
Or.. you're ronin. [Coffee]you let me in your house[Tooth]
jackthewall81
10-21-2012, 02:40
Man up and fight the guy like a man. If you get your ass beat, so be it. It is not worth killing someone over.
Now, once they pull a knife or any other weapon on you, then it is okay to pull your gun out.
This thread is slightly frightening. Way to many people advocating killing over a simple fist fight.
Man up and fight the guy like a man. If you get your ass beat, so be it. It is not worth killing someone over.
Now, once they pull a knife or any other weapon on you, then it is okay to pull your gun out.
This thread is slightly frightening. Way to many people advocating killing over a simple fist fight.
Perfect way to be shot with your own gun.
As a lot of people said before - do everything you can to avoid the fight because when you're carrying a gun - IT IS NOT A FIST FIGHT ANYMORE, THERE'S A GUN INVOLVED.
ronin13
i dont know you personally but i know your posts .don't take this the wrong way but go back a read everything and you will see why some of us see you as a spoiled kid who needs to grow up .im sure you are just fine in person but damn , if you really need advice on how to act then you should not carry .
bigun1962
10-21-2012, 05:14
If you carry a lot like you say you should already have this scenario figured out. The first guy gave you a pretty good answer. You will have to articulate what ever you do.
bigmyk2k
10-25-2012, 12:32
That ECQC course looks really solid. Anyone who's been through it have insight on the value, and cost?
YammyMonkey
10-25-2012, 12:47
That ECQC course looks really solid. Anyone who's been through it have insight on the value, and cost?
Craig will be back out here June 7-9 next year. The cost will be $450 for the whole combo. I have we're probably doing In Extremis Knife on Friday night and then ECQC on Sat & Sun. Friday night is most likely going to be in Englewood, and just off Hamden & Broadway and ECQC will probably be down in Elizabeth.
Until you've done something like ECQC you just don't realize how quickly a scenario can go from talking to fighting to fighting over the gun to shooting.
Not looking to justify fighting, but there are situations that you can not get away from. I was in Seattle at the Denver Seattle game (preseason) a few years ago and I was wearing my broncos hat. My buddy, a Seahawks fan and I decided to get a drink at a bar as we walked back towards the ferry. I ordered a beer and before it got there this guy, short bastard, grabbed my shoulder and said "I seen the way you been eye'n me". I did not even get a chance to respond and he punched me in the neck. It didn't really hurt but it caught me completely off guard. I could tell that he was drunk and was winding up for another shot so I squared up and hit him harder than I have ever hit a punching bag before. I think that it was the nerves but I am pretty sure I broke his jaw. I did not really have time to think or process the situation and it was a pure reflex. He was screaming and rolling around on the floor and my buddy and I just got the hell out of there. Had he been a more formidable opponent it could have been way worse.
I was not carrying for any of it, but I think of it now when I am carrying. It was still light outside, normal downtown area and there was no warning no time and no way out of it. It was a pretty nice bar too, not some run down place shady place. Just a drunk guy wanting to hit someone.
With all that said, I think that I have developed my situational awareness since then and I might have been able to see it coming a little sooner now than before. In a situation like that there is no time or justification for pulling your weapon. If you have time to think about pulling your gun, you have time to run out the door, call for help or get out of the situation. At no point should drawing your weapon even be a thought unless you are sure that you or someone else is going to die. It takes two to fight, and most people are in it to make you look inferior, and I am fine with looking inferior. I know who I am and what I want in life. I carry to save lives, not to save face.
I carry to save lives, not to save face.[Beer]
Mick-Boy
10-26-2012, 09:39
That ECQC course looks really solid. Anyone who's been through it have insight on the value, and cost?
It's a good class and well worth the time and money. I'd say it's exactly the kind of uncomfortable wake-up call that most people who CCW need.
trlcavscout
10-26-2012, 11:30
In my younger days I did some scrappin, now I am old enough and wise enough to know I have the biggest dick so theirs no need to measure. I could give 2 shits what teen age gang bangers say, which at work seems to be the biggest problem I deal with. I DONT CARE! They can say or do what ever they want. Now if its an unsolicited attack and they physically start a problem I would have no problem ending it as quickly and stearnly as possible useing "ANY" tool that I can get my hands on. If I had to beat them with a toilet seat it would not matter to me if thats all I could grab, that being said I dont carry most of the time and when at work I am not allowed to carry anything to protect myself.
JMBD2112
10-26-2012, 17:34
Jan. 20th 2012, i was downtown at my fiance's christmas party. She works for a law firm and the owners were out of town for the holidays so they took the employees out to freshcraft for dinner and drinks. i knew that i woud have a beer or two so i left my sidearm in the car. well we go to leave and two thug trash pieces of shit (excuse my language) were walking adjacent to us and one of them stepped over and shoulder checked me for what reason i don't know. jess, my fiance, told the guy to fuck off. bieng the man he was, he pushed her so hard she fell down, i socked him once and he went down like a sack of potatoes. his friend came torwards me and i got him down on the ground and got a few good licks in when all the sudden jess started screaming and pulling back on my shoulders. i stood up and she told i had been stabbed. i didn't even feel it, the first guy came from behind me and stabbed me with a 10 inch blade right underneath my right lung. almost went all the way through but my ribcage stopped it. their were two guys behind us that saw it happen, and they tried to stop the them, but were unsuccessful. the were gone by the time the police arrived. i remember getting on the ambulance on my own, but io passed out as soon as i layed down on the gurney. i woke up the next morning in denver health, and the doctor told me i was lucky to be alive, i flatlined twice. not a day goes by where i dont run that "what if" scenario in my head. i just lost it cause he pushed my fiance' down. some of you guys are saying fight or take the assbeating, or walk away. ronin here's one thing you can count on, you never know what the other person is capable of or willing to do to you. defusing the situation is the way to go if at all possible. i wish i could have swallowed my pride and walked away, but thats not the way i was raised.
YammyMonkey
10-29-2012, 14:22
That is one hell of a way to learn that lesson.
We don't necessarily get to control when it's just a fight and when it's a fight for our lives.
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