View Full Version : Is .40 S&W suddenly uncool?
Is it just my perception or does it seem like a lot of guys have been/are dumping their .40's in the trading post in favor of sticking with 9mm and/or 45?
I can't argue with the logic, just wondered if its just guys wanting focus on .mil cartridges. I also know several cops that started out with .40 because it was pretty new at the time, they've since gone with 45's. I attribute that to them being older and wiser and not feeling like they need the added capacity of a 9mm or .40...
Anyone one else notice this? Maybe I am just confused because the mountains are on the wrong side since I moved?
SuperiorDG
10-21-2012, 15:35
I carry a .40 (G23 or G22), but train with a G17 9mm.
spittoon
10-21-2012, 15:38
it all depends on who you ask
If I didn't reload I would just have 9mm.
.40S&W is sooo last week.
You should just give yours to me. [Neene3]
Scanker19
10-21-2012, 16:12
.40 S&W is 2000 and late.
AirbornePathogen
10-21-2012, 16:15
I carry a 1911 these days, but I still won't part with my SIG 229 .40 cal.
hghclsswhitetrsh
10-21-2012, 16:18
10 mm.
Who chooses ammunition because it is or isn't cool?
Scanker19
10-21-2012, 16:22
9mm. It's a grower, not a show-er.
.40S&W was never cool
If it had ponies on it you would think it was. [ROFL1]
If it had ponies on it you would think it was. [ROFL1]
Like .45 Colt
Or, alternatively...
http://www.armoryblog.com/firearms/rifles/my-little-pony-mosin-nagant/
SideShow Bob
10-21-2012, 16:43
Or This ?
http://images.businessweek.com/ss/06/06/hardees_badthings/image/colt_45.jpg
SideShow Bob
10-21-2012, 16:45
The .40 S&W had it's detractors since it was introduced. Own and carry any caliber that flips your trigger.......... Pun intended..[LOL]
Who chooses ammunition because it is or isn't cool?
I just used the word "cool" to indicate popularity. And wondered if my perceived decrease in popularity is real or imagined?
I like seeing new or reintroduced cartridges come out. 327 Ruger, er Federal Magnum, never really went anywhere. But I hope folks keep trying.
Whistler
10-21-2012, 17:25
Yup .40 is very uncool. No one "older & wiser" uses them anymore but all is not lost I will take them off your hands for a modest fee.
I carry a Glock 23 every day. I think the .40 S&W in the 155 & 165 grain bullets are optimal for personal defense. In fact, shot it yesterday at the all-steel challenge hosted by R.W. Swainson. It runs like a top and always will. Not sure I know anyone who is standing up to volunteer to stand down range and catch my hollow points for me. It's all about preference and I get it. Some people love 9mm and there's nothing wrong with it. The only cartridge I was never a big fan of is .380. But all in all, you have to carry what you're comfortable with.
Some calibers are very well received by the populous while others are not. A few examples of calibers that "could have been but didn't make it" are the .45 GAP, 357 Sig, .400 Cor-Bon, etc. These calibers had great potential and big companies backing them up but they have now been relegated to a "specialty" market. I don't see this being the case with the .40 S&W.
In some Action Pistol sports (such as USPSA), the .40 S&W is still the undisputed king.
At least 40SW can totally feel different based on the weight of bullet.
If I am shooting 40sw, I prefer 180grain. If lower grain, it has too much snap for me.
I happen to really like the 40 but I have found that the recoil on a 45 is much nicer than a 40, so I carry a 45.
Great-Kazoo
10-21-2012, 19:06
From an ammo and personal ownership side, it is still in fad.
From a resale standpoint, they are boat anchors, always have always been.
Post a 9, 40 & 45, same mfg, same full everything etc. You will be sitting on the 40 sometimes long after the 9 & 45 have been sold. When i did a stint in a lgs in noco, they would not take any 40's on trade in unless it was pawn shop super low ball priced. Don't know why or care, it is a caliber while nice for pd and comp is not something i would pick up, with the intent of turning or trading down the road.
Never did like the 40. I always had 9 & 45. I did like the 45 Gap but it just never caught on.
I get .357 SIG issued to me for work. I like it but I am very happy I don't have to pay for it. Given that my issued pistol shoots .357 SIG, I've picked up barrels in .40 S&W for any pistol I have. Carry either caliber with just a barrel swap.
Works for me, but I am definitely not cool [LOL]
Be safe.
Great-Kazoo
10-21-2012, 19:25
I get .357 SIG issued to me for work. I like it but I am very happy I don't have to pay for it. Given that my issued pistol shoots .357 SIG, I've picked up barrels in .40 S&W for any pistol I have. Carry either caliber with just a barrel swap.
Works for me, but I am definitely not cool [LOL]
Be safe.
Not cool but STONE COLD, BABY. STONE........COLD
Troublco
10-21-2012, 19:31
10 mm.
'nough said.
YEAH, baby! (Austin Powers accent used.) Love my 10's.
That being said, use what you're comfortable with. If you like the .40, use it. 10mm is "out" and has been for years, but it's as useful as ever. Same with my .17 Remington AR for varmints.
<MADDOG>
10-21-2012, 19:33
My 2 cents, when LEO's stop carrying it.. I'll get rid of it. Until then, I'll have one in .40.
And I agree with the 9 and .45 philosophy...
I get .357 SIG issued to me for work. I like it but I am very happy I don't have to pay for it. Given that my issued pistol shoots .357 SIG, I've picked up barrels in .40 S&W for any pistol I have. Carry either caliber with just a barrel swap.
Works for me, but I am definitely not cool [LOL]
Be safe.
Plus one
Another reason that I like 40sw.
I can just swap a barrel on most manufacturers to shot 357 Sig.
kidicarus13
10-21-2012, 22:03
.40 is crap. PM me a price of the stuff you want to sell.
Is it just my perception or does it seem like a lot of guys have been/are dumping their .40's in the trading post in favor of sticking with 9mm and/or 45?
I can't argue with the logic, just wondered if its just guys wanting focus on .mil cartridges. I also know several cops that started out with .40 because it was pretty new at the time, they've since gone with 45's. I attribute that to them being older and wiser and not feeling like they need the added capacity of a 9mm or .40...
Anyone one else notice this? Maybe I am just confused because the mountains are on the wrong side since I moved?
This statement is completely and utterly stupid.
Choosing a lower capacity, more expensive, heavier recoiling cartridge that has absolutely no advantage over 9mm or .40 in terms of wounding ballistics has NOTHING to do with being older and wiser.
I darn near picked up another .40 four years ago. When you couldn't find any 9mm or .45 ACP on the shelves because of the big election scare there was plenty of .40 S&W to be found.
NightCat
10-21-2012, 22:55
I stopped shooting .40 about 6 months ago, and I really dont miss it at all.
I found that .40 was a very snappy round and while the recoil and reaction of my weapon was very Linear with 9mm and with 45 just slightly more powerful than 9mm, that my .40 was a parabolic upwards arc and the force slopped up very hard and was not an ideal caliber for me to shoot due to a that and the cost of .40 being that much higher than 9mm.
The Cost, the Recoil and the Availability ( I was having issues finding .40 for a while) is why I switched to 9mm, and 9 is just as good as a defensive round.
I cant stand the "oh well your little 9 wont stop anything compared to my .45", it's a bunch of crap, especially when you ask the guy what he has and he says a .38 spc.....NEWS FLASH DUMB ASS!!! 9mm and .38spc carry the same energy and defensive power.
>_<
*rant over*/
As far as popularity in competition I was lead to believe that it was because they can be loaded to just barely meet the power factor requirements for some competition but can also be loaded light for recoil management in non high power.
Also personally always hated this round. Yeah sure with practice/training you can over come it and get used to is same as anything else. I think it made more sense when .45 standard was 7 rounds, 9mm was 15. These days most double wides are 12-14 in .45 and 17-20 in 9mm. So splitting the capacity these days doesn't give you that 5-6 round advantage anymore. Always found .45 far more pleasant to shoot too, lower pressure so more case longevity for reloaders.
Recently TTAG had this post, ignore the video really and just go through comments. Like 80% feel the same way.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/10/robert-farago/james-yeager-40s-suck/
SA Friday
10-22-2012, 01:25
Fitz, I think, hit on why some don't like 40 S&W. It was designed with modern metallurgy in the guns. The 9mm Luger and 45 ACP were designed during a different era and the metallurgy just wouldn't take the pressure. The 40 cal has a higher SAAMI spec for chamber pressure. With the fast burning powders used in pistol calibers, this translates to a fast, sharp recoil impulse. Comparatively, my basic target rounds in 9mm, 40, and 45 take about a grain less in 9mm and about a half a grain more in 40 than 45 with the same powders with 147, 180, and 230 gr bullets respectively.
It doesn't bother me and I own and shoot all three, but I know many who don't like the snappier 40 cal recoil.
Fitz, I think, hit on why some don't like 40 S&W. It was designed with modern metallurgy in the guns. The 9mm Luger and 45 ACP were designed during a different era and the metallurgy just wouldn't take the pressure. The 40 cal has a higher SAAMI spec for chamber pressure. With the fast burning powders used in pistol calibers, this translates to a fast, sharp recoil impulse. Comparatively, my basic target rounds in 9mm, 40, and 45 take about a grain less in 9mm and about a half a grain more in 40 than 45 with the same powders with 147, 180, and 230 gr bullets respectively.
It doesn't bother me and I own and shoot all three, but I know many who don't like the snappier 40 cal recoil.
BRAVO!
Very well put and spot on[Score]
My next question would be how far have you pulled shots. why I ask is because more pressure = higher velocity= flatter trajectory correct? Hence you should be able to have some tight groups shooting at longer distance than say the 45 acp.
SA Friday
10-22-2012, 01:48
BRAVO!
Very well put and spot on[Score]
My next question would be how far have you pulled shots. why I ask is because more pressure = higher velocity= flatter trajectory correct? Hence you should be able to have some tight groups shooting at longer distance than say the 45 acp.
I've shot all three out to 100 yds on an 18" steel plate. They are all iffy at that distance. I do know one guy that custom builds 45 ACPs for long distance shooting and has put 4 out of 6 on an 18" plate at 400 yards. Then again I've seen a guy shoot a G19 out to a couple of hundred yards too.
Personally, when I start shooting at targets where the flatness of the trajectory comes into play, it better be for a competition. A real life shooting, I'm running away and finding a rifle.
BuffCyclist
10-22-2012, 01:52
I LOVE my Glock 23! Its my EDC and is what I recently taught my fiancee how to shoot with.
While I don't have comparisons for longer range shots in other calibers, I recently had to take a recertification/refresher course for my CCL (stupid NM law) and my instructor asked if I had done any long range shooting with my Glock 23. I hadn't, so he took me out to 50yds with a paper target and had me take my time shooting through a full mag. When we went to check out the target up close, I was shocked to see how tightly grouped they were, if I recall they were all within a 4-6" diameter circle. Granted, they weren't in the center of the target, they were to the left of the target which could be accounted for by either the wind (blowing at me from my right) or from my sights not being properly dialed in. All I can say is that my G23 is more accurate than I had expected and it was kind of a thrill to shoot at 50yds for accuracy, I might have to take it out to 75yds and see how I can do (and compare it with a 9mm conversion barrel).
Regarding recoil, I love the recoil of .40s&w. When I shot my BIL's RIA 1911, the recoil was much more than I was expecting and completely different. Not painful so much as difficult for me to control and get quick follow up shots. With my Glock 23 I can easily empty a mag on a target without having to recover from the recoil after each shot.
I've shot all three out to 100 yds on an 18" steel plate. They are all iffy at that distance. I do know one guy that custom builds 45 ACPs for long distance shooting and has put 4 out of 6 on an 18" plate at 400 yards. Then again I've seen a guy shoot a G19 out to a couple of hundred yards too.
Personally, when I start shooting at targets where the flatness of the trajectory comes into play, it better be for a competition. A real life shooting, I'm running away and finding a rifle.
Yea wasn't thinking in a defensive environment just open shooting. Thanks for the info!
sneakerd
10-22-2012, 07:55
I have no interest in the .40 S&W. Never owned one and never will.
I think that there is a decrease in interest over the last few years. I pick up range brass and there seems to be less and less 40. Less 45 too, and I blame the drop in use on the economy. I used to see about 50% 9mm, 20% 40S&W, and 30% 45ACP. But now I would bet it is about 75% 9mm, 5% 40 S&W, and 20% 45ACP.
If you have to choose a gun for utilitarian purposes, then you must go with the round that is the cheapest that will do what you want it to do. Provided you are trained and know how to use it, a 9mm will kill a criminal dead, a 500 Magnum will kill a criminal dead, so in tough economic times any additional cost above the threshold of performing its designed task people will default towards a cheaper option.
I reload so there is not a huge difference to me, but I can not get my friends to bring anything other than a 9mm or 22lr to the range. Most of them have 40's and were trying to encourage me to get one for a while. I have only shot one 40 that made me want it and that was a Steyr M40. That gun might as well shoot 40 cal lasers, and I felt like I could hit anything.
DD977GM2
10-22-2012, 08:31
I have no interest in the .40 S&W. Never owned one and never will.
Thats complete hogwash, You must own 1 one time in your life. Its on Everyone's bucket list, or so I am told [Stooge]
sneakerd
10-22-2012, 08:33
How dare you sir. My 9 millie against your 40, at dawn!
Great-Kazoo
10-22-2012, 08:53
Thats complete hogwash, You must own 1 one time in your life. Its on Everyone's bucket list, or so I am told [Stooge]
Didn't hear it from me. Not now nor even when it was a "fad" did i desire to own one. Snappy it wasn't for me to shoot, just not a 40 cal-drinker
HBARleatherneck
10-22-2012, 09:04
delete
I buy UNWANTED UNCOOL CALIBER GUNS FOR CHEAP!
I buy UNWANTED UNCOOL CALIBER GUNS FOR CHEAP!THIS^ [Coffee]
sneakerd
10-22-2012, 09:21
I remember the covers on the gunrags at the time- ".40 S&W- The New Manstopper!" [Shock][Puke]
SouthPaw
10-22-2012, 10:00
As Jim said, place a FS ad for a Glock 19, G23, a G21 and see which sell first. I carried a G23 as my first CCW. After slowly but surely shooting 9mm more and more I made the switch and got a G19. My father did the exact oppsoite, G19 to a G23.
My father did the exact oppsoite...
It goes to show why, in today's market, there are there so many caliber choices.
My wife shoots my Glock .40 (Model 23) with no problems and doesn't complain about the recoil.
I'm wondering if those complaining about the recoil on the .40 cal need to revoke their "man card" or go wash the sand out from between their legs. I put a Sprinco recoil reducing guide rod in my Glock 23 and it shaves off just enough recoil for fast fllow-up shots to be accurate and fun. The whole reason for the new guide rod was for firing it one handed in the retention position. I personally love my .45 Kimber and my Glock equally, but it just kills me to hear people whining about the recoil on the .40 cal.
Now, the guys doting on the 10mm, now that's a man's cartridge right there. I fired a friend's Glock 20 not all that long ago and was really pleased at the feel and didn't think the recoil was unmanageable by any means. That being said, I'd love to have a Colt Delta Elite some day.
.40 is only snappy to me in my weak hand.
Now, the guys doting on the 10mm, now that's a man's cartridge right there.
With the right ammunition, even the mighty 10mm can be quite manageable. BTW, this is an outstanding caliber for Bowling Pin pistol matches!
Some say 40S&W guns wear out faster. They claim the higher pressure moving parts faster ect. The 40 does have more of a snap to it, but I've never broken one. One other thing, Hodgdon load data shows 9mm using the same pressure as the 40? If this was true wouldn't the 9mm be snappy and wear the same as the 40?
I don't think (with current ammo choices) that it really matters. Here's a 9mm (center bullet) and some various .45's. Presumably, .40 would be similar in terms of expansion. My paper targets can't seem to tell the difference:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/hatidua/459_zps900da35f.jpg
SouthPaw
10-22-2012, 13:14
Did you take that picture?
I think that the .40 cal works just as good as any other caliber of round when your life depends on it. I don't care for the battle of caliber so much but rather the function and feel of the weapon that fires that projectile.
Did you take that picture?
I was two feet from the camera when the photo was taken by a forum member here who has already posted in this thread. He can opine if he chooses. The photo was taken two weeks ago.
sneakerd
10-22-2012, 13:39
I would like to know what each bullet was and what medium was used for testing.
I would like to know what each bullet was and what medium was used for testing.
9mm (middle bullet) is a Federal HST 147, shot into a jugs of water stacked end to end (stopped in third gallon). The .45's weren't mine and my memory isn't what it could be. I know there's a Winchester Ranger among the .45's but the other person involved would have to weigh in on what .45's he was shooting.
kidicarus13
10-22-2012, 14:12
I would like to know what each bullet was and what medium was used for testing.
My crystal ball tells me that whatever the "test method" and medium used, it will not be realistic or scientific enough to satisfy anyone but it will bring the internet gun experts to their keyboards for another rounds of arguements about how the comparison test should have been completed and what the results should have looked like. I seriously doubt the person taking the picture is trying to mislead anyone on purpose.
I believe the photo should be used to support the idea that caliber (9 vs 45) is not as important as shot placement and follow-up shots as needed. Over a large sample of newer generation hollowpoints, 9mm expands (assuming there is expansion) marginally smaller than .45ACP but it also produces less recoil.
For background info: I shoot and carry 9/40/45 so all of my dogs are in this fight. Choose your weapon and ammo and then practice, practice, practice.
I think that the .40 cal works just as good as any other caliber of round when your life depends on it. I don't care for the battle of caliber so much but rather the function and feel of the weapon that fires that projectile.
You make an excellent point. I know a police officer who formerly worked at Northglenn PD. He shot and killed a knife weilding suspect with a 9mm Hydrashok - 1 shot, center of mass, dropped the guy like a sack of potatoes right where he stood. As many have posted before me, it's all about shot placement. That being said, however, I seen the autopsy of an assailant who was shot by Pennsylvania PD officers at 25 feet with 180 gr. Speer Gold Dots and that round failed miserably. The assailant was ultimately taken down with 75 gr. Hornady TAP rounds from an AR. I'll post the pic below of the round that hit the assailant in the neck and failed to penetrate or expand properly.
http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i445/TangoDownPro/SpeerGoldDotFAIL_zpsc4f9f5a4.jpg
Now, the guys doting on the 10mm, now that's a man's cartridge right there. I fired a friend's Glock 20 not all that long ago and was really pleased at the feel and didn't think the recoil was unmanageable by any means. That being said, I'd love to have a Colt Delta Elite some day.
A 10mm wheelgun is extra cool.
kidicarus13
10-22-2012, 14:23
You make an excellent point. I know a police officer who formerly worked at Northglenn PD. He shot and killed a knife weilding suspect with a 9mm Hydrashok - 1 shot, center of mass, dropped the guy like a sack of potatoes right where he stood. As many have posted before me, it's all about shot placement. That being said, however, I seen the autopsy of an assailant who was shot by Pennsylvania PD officers at 25 feet with 180 gr. Speer Gold Dots and that round failed miserably. The assailant was ultimately taken down with 75 gr. Hornady TAP rounds from an AR. I'll post the pic below of the round that hit the assailant in the neck and failed to penetrate or expand properly.
Cool photo. A bullet coming to rest near your spine is never going to amount to a good day for the guy being shot.
Somewhat off topic but the fly shop in Boulder on Arapahoe has a chest X-ray like that of what a (fishing) fly looks like when a shop attendant accidentally swallows it, barb and all :eek:
SA Friday
10-22-2012, 14:39
I would like to know what each bullet was and what medium was used for testing.
IDK, but I'll take an educated guess at them.
From left to right:
-Ranger STX,
-Golden Saber (or maybe a Gold Dot, I would have to see a side shot of the bullet to really tell),
-PMC El Dorado Starfire,
-Don't know...
-Furthest right (a guess, might be wrong) a Corbon.
Please keep in mind that most reloading charts will show similar/equal chamber pressures for 9mm and 40, but there is a significant difference in momentum as the 40 cal bullets are heavier. Mass x Velocity is momentum. In determining recoil, Newton's 3rd law relates the mass times the velocity of the bullet will equal the mass times the velocity of the gun during recoil. So, the gun being shot does come into play as to the "snappiness" of the recoil, but consistently there will be more overall momentum from the bullet's momentum. Secondly,
Madusa (Medusa spelled with an a? ); I confess, SAAMI chamber pressures for 9mm and 40 are the same, 35,000 psi, but the smaller diameter of the 9mm allowed for more metal to be used in the older barrels without having to make a gun the size of a brick. The webbing in a 9mm vs a 40 are very different too assisting in controlling the pressure. The 9mm webbing to diameter ratio is higher rendering more strength to the chamber when fired. 40 cal cases are thinner in the webbing thus the whole "guppy brass" issue.
Ultimately, there is a lot of truth in this thread. It all really points to the fact that firearms technology has plateaued. There is now very little difference mechanically in modern firearm design and modern ammunition design. Pick one and practice. I personally have more 40s than anything, but that is because 40 cal is king in action pistol sports. It drove my choice. I am running a very very close 2nd with 9mm pistols. They are simply cheaper to shoot. With the rising price of lead and copper, I have drastically thinned out my 45s. .40 cents a round for decent factory target ammo is pretty brutal, and even reloading costs are significantly higher. 10mm ammo prices? No thank you.
sneakerd
10-22-2012, 14:39
I agree totally with kidicarus and Squeeze. I tell people almost every day at work that it's not the size of the pill you send downrange, it's if you can hit a soft spot. I was curious about the medium because there are many different bullets I would like to test and keep- for my own purposes.
IDK, but I'll take an educated guess at them.
From left to right:
-Ranger STX,
-Golden Saber (or maybe a Gold Dot, I would have to see a side shot of the bullet to really tell),
-PMC El Dorado Starfire,
-Don't know...
-Furthest right (a guess, might be wrong) a Corbon.
There's always an outside chance the third one was a Federal HST...
SA Friday
10-22-2012, 14:48
I agree totally with kidicarus. I tell people almost every day at work that it's not the size of the pill you send downrange, it's if you can hit a soft spot. I was curious about the medium because there are many different bullets I would like to test and keep- for my own purposes.
Water jugs or soaked newspaper/phonebooks is the easiest. A 55 gal barrel filled it with water or a shotbox filled with about 6-7 feet of cut and stacked cotton works too. Ballistic gel is a PITA, and I don't recommend it. Heating, mixing, keeping it refrigerated, having it turn to liquid when it's hot outside... Just a pain.
SA Friday
10-22-2012, 14:50
There's always an outside chance the third one was a Federal HST...
Ya, I was typing when he posted... I haven't seen a HST expanded before. I have seen a lot of Starfires and they look just like that. I'm thinking Fed liked the design...
Ya, I was typing when he posted... I haven't seen a HST expanded before. I have seen a lot of Starfires and they look just like that. I'm thinking Fed liked the design...
I foolishly sold off all my Starfire's years ago when I ditched 9mm for a spell. Sadly, I sold it cheap too. Starfire's were pretty accurate for me as well as expanding nicely.
SideShow Bob
10-22-2012, 17:43
How dare you sir. My 9 millie against your 40, at dawn!
Make it Noon and 10 paces starting back to back........[LOL]
You sure did drool over a EMP 40 that I showed you once, then went and bought one in 9 mm.
Choose your weapon and ammo and then practice, practice, practice.
Your statement makes too much sense for the Internet. [Beer]
I have .40 and .45 for my daily carries.. w/ a .380 for a trip to the store. I don't like the 9mm. I have only ever owned one 9mm and while the M&P was a sweet shooter.. I much more enjoy my .40 and .45.
It doesn't matter what round you use. The bottom line is shot placement. If you shoot someone in the leg w/ a .45 it's not going to do as much good as a 9mm to the center cavity, or the head.
TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN.
Everytime I go shoot at paper it's offhand, and malfunction drills. I had a double feed on my sig last go round.. it would not clear. I was only 200 rds into my break in. No problems for the next 300 rds beyond. You better believe I was loading empty brass into my mags.
I actually impressed myself..
SA Friday
10-22-2012, 21:18
Your statement makes too much sense for the Internet. [Beer]
'Pick one and practice' - Flexmoney.
'Pick one and practice' - Flexmoney.
Yeap!! I can almost hear Flex's voice like a resounding echo in the back of my mind...
Makes me so happy that Gold Dots are our required carry ammo for my company.
You make an excellent point. I know a police officer who formerly worked at Northglenn PD. He shot and killed a knife weilding suspect with a 9mm Hydrashok - 1 shot, center of mass, dropped the guy like a sack of potatoes right where he stood. As many have posted before me, it's all about shot placement. That being said, however, I seen the autopsy of an assailant who was shot by Pennsylvania PD officers at 25 feet with 180 gr. Speer Gold Dots and that round failed miserably. The assailant was ultimately taken down with 75 gr. Hornady TAP rounds from an AR. I'll post the pic below of the round that hit the assailant in the neck and failed to penetrate or expand properly.
NightCat
10-23-2012, 01:43
Not saying I cant shoot .40...I just prefer not to.
It IS Snappy, and more expensive...and despite the awesome carrying capacity on my XDm (16+1) its nice to have 17+1....cause no one likes doing mag changes lol.
It's just one data point, but I can share why I haven't gone gaga over .40 S&W: It's simply too far into the middle of the spectrum to be distinctively fun.
I like that 9mm is extremely cheap to shoot, can be stacked tall, and available in +P loads that seem to get the job done.
I like that .45's are nice heavy bullets that still pack a decent punch even with subsonic loads. Perhaps I've been reading a bit too much Tom Clancy, but the notion of a .45 with a suppressor and subsonic loads is about as close to a whisper gun as I can imagine. Also, the venerable 1911 just isn't the same in any other caliber.
.40 S&W, to me, seems like the worse of both worlds, with snappy recoil as an additional detriment.
If I were picking a caliber solely for defensive capabilities, I can think of no advantage that .40 S&W has over 10mm. (Am I missing something?)
My two cents...
~Omni~
My CCW is an M&P 40c and I love it.
kidicarus13
10-23-2012, 10:37
If I were picking a caliber solely for defensive capabilities, I can think of no advantage that .40 S&W has over 10mm. (Am I missing something?)
My two cents...
~Omni~
Recoil and cost
hghclsswhitetrsh
10-23-2012, 10:41
My m&pc 40 has more recoil than my glock 20(10mm) However it is bigger and heavier as well. If you reload the cost is damn near the same.
I enjoy the tactile feedback of .40 S&W.
SideShow Bob
10-23-2012, 18:05
I can think of no advantage that .40 S&W has over 10mm. (Am I missing something?)
My two cents...
~Omni~
Missing your shot, children in the adjacent room, close neighbors and over penetration. Know what is behind your intended target.............
Goodburbon
10-23-2012, 18:15
My stocked pistol caliber is .40. It's a compromise for me between the capacity of the 9mm and the energy of the .45. I only have a few boxes of the other two.
I also have 9's and .45's, and personally like to shoot them all. The Sub compact .40 isn't horrible to shoot at all. (the sub compact .45 was and it went away).
I'm the opposite. 9mm for self defense, .45 because there's a lot of cool guns only available in .45
I try to limit my calibers, so I am sitting on 5 in stock right now.
I love majority of calibers out there in the market.
Only thing with having too much caliberS FOR ME IS THAT I put pressure more/less depends on a calibers. Some may argue it may create inconsistentcy.
Great-Kazoo
10-23-2012, 22:02
I'm the opposite. 9mm for self defense, .45 because there's a lot of cool guns only available in .45
I try to limit my calibers, so I am sitting on 5 in stock right now.
5 guns???? Do you really need that many:)
5 guns???? Do you really need that many:)
Good start. [UZI]
http://whysoblu.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/boondock-saints-il-duce-whysoblu.jpg
5 guns???? Do you really need that many:)
I *think* he may have meant 5 calibers
I'm the opposite. 9mm for self defense, .45 because there's a lot of cool guns only available in .45
I try to limit my calibers, so I am sitting on 5 in stock right now.
.40 S&W, 10mm, 10mm magnum, 40 super, and 400 corbon?
Just kidding...22, 38spl, 9mm, 45acp, 44 mag. Probably something like that.
I *think* he may have meant 5 calibers
I meant 5 calibers:
9mm
45ACP
5.56x45
7.62x51
22LR
Not sure what my next caliber would be.
There is some relevance to a lot of the issues raised herein. But some of it is pure marketing as well.
When the .40 S&W came out, there were two factors driving the .40 S&W bus, USPSA competition and heavy marketing to LEAs. Those choices and rules drove people to those calibers. Now, you have IDPA, USPSA Production and the VAST majority of 3gun (Read PRO shooters) shooting 9mm and thus there is some shift back to 9mm.
Cost is also a major factor. In the 70s and 80s, people did not practice, compete or take classes, so ammo cost was insignificant. Now we are looking at a multi-million dollar industry in competition and classes! Shoot more, look for cost savings and the paper don't care.
The CCW craze of the last 15 years also drives to the 9mm both from a cost and carry perspective. The .380 is fun to carry, but not fun for target practice and the ammo cost is higher. There are not suitable .380 full sized guns in the US either. Smart gun company would make a full sized .380...would sell like hotcakes if they could get an ammo producer to sell bulk ammo cheap. The 9mm pistols carry lighter than the .40s, but have more punch than the .380s.
Then, we have ballisitcs. As the general population has started to understand more about terminal ballistics, they also see better projectile design coming from the bullet manufacturers making the 9mm closer to the .40 and .45 in terms of actual effectiveness.
Last, accumulation has an effect. The "gun culture" is maturing (knowledge, not age) in their knowledge base and the average "gun guy" now knows more than the average "gun journalist". As a result, their marketing influences are minimalized. If you are an average "gun guy", you are in your late 30s to late 50s, own 6 to 7 handguns including a 9mm, .40 and probably a 1911 in .45. Thus you have first hand experience with a variety of calibers and platforms. You chose your first gun based on a gun rag, or a local cop, or maybe what dad had. NOW, you are the expert influencing buying selections of the majority of first time buyers utilizign a personal connection. Instead of say 12 gun rag experts, we have a more educated, more experienced population influencing the newbies. In the 1980s, gun journalists who ventured to a match would typically place in the top 1/3. These same guys are now in the bottom 1/3 which also marginalizes their influence since the "average" competitor beats them. Yes, there are expections, and this is not meant to degrade the gun journalists, just offering observations.
All of these factors have reduced the elixir of the .40 S&W as the end all be all, and rightly so. Not that the .40 S&W is bad, it is just one of several options that each much weigh for each gun for each purpose.
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