Minimal CCW Training

[abert]

I was all set to get a FL license because my military experience was all that was required and it was unlikely it would get entered in the CO database. Well, with the new CO laws I will need to get the CO license.

My question is - who provides a "minimal" class that will meet the CO requirements. I have no desire to spend a weekend doing live fire drills and spending a few hundred dollars. If I want to take an advanced class fine, but for now I just need a low cost class that covers the letter of the law.

IMHO, while training is good for a first timer, for former military or LEO the training should be optional. The requirement was just something the NRA got into the bill to support $$$ their instructors.

Thanks

[PhL0aTeR]

I was all set to get a FL license because my military experience was all that was required and it was unlikely it would get entered in the CO database. Well, with the new CO laws I will need to get the CO license.

My question is - who provides a "minimal" class that will meet the CO requirements. I have no desire to spend a weekend doing live fire drills and spending a few hundred dollars. If I want to take an advanced class fine, but for now I just need a low cost class that covers the letter of the law.

IMHO, while training is good for a first timer, for former military or LEO the training should be optional. The requirement was just something the NRA got into the bill to support $$$ their instructors.

Thanks

I cant remember the name of the guy i took mine from, but it was only 75 bucks and a few hours on a wednesday night. I'll check y filing cabinet for my certification and get it back to ya.

[HunterCO]

NRA basic handgun course will work.

[rondog]

Yeah, I paid $150 for a CCW class, and it was good, but according to the Douglas Co. Sheriff's office when I applied for my permit, all that's required is a certificate from an "NRA approved gun safety class". There's no requirement for "qualifying", or even proving that you can shoot at all.

Once my application was approved, they just gave me the permit with no kind of training or briefing about what I can and can't do in regards to concealed carry. That still kind of bothers me. Basic stuff like no school property, any place with metal detectors, etc., is very clear. But there's a lot of grey areas I'm not clear about. I was really hoping the SO would have a "new permit holder's orientation class" or something like that.

[PhL0aTeR]

Yeah, I paid $150 for a CCW class, and it was good, but according to the Douglas Co. Sheriff's office when I applied for my permit, all that's required is a certificate from an "NRA approved gun safety class". There's no requirement for "qualifying", or even proving that you can shoot at all.

Once my application was approved, they just gave me the permit with no kind of training or briefing about what I can and can't do in regards to concealed carry. That still kind of bothers me. Basic stuff like no school property, any place with metal detectors, etc., is very clear. But there's a lot of grey areas I'm not clear about. I was really hoping the SO would have a "new permit holder's orientation class" or something like that.


been there, done that

http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4784

[wyzardd]

Rich Wyatt at Gunsmoke does a 4 hour, $100 class on random Mondays. Mostly covers the wide range of accessories available from his establishment, but you get the certificate you need.

To be fair, there's also a lot of political rants as well as random stories.

[abert]

Thanks for all the feedback! I was hoping there were classes that only ran a few hours and under $100.

rondog -
"according to the Douglas Co. Sheriff's office when I applied for my permit, all that's required is a certificate from an "NRA approved gun safety class"
Thanks for the info on Douglas Co., this is where I would be applying.

I hope my post did not come across the wrong way, everyone can learn something new, no one know all there is to know. I do think the minimum basic should be a review of basic gun safety and handling and a good review of CO laws. For the folks who have never fired a gun, then they should look for a more comprehensive class where they do get range time. But for the folks who have had years of "two way" range time; just don't feel like spending time and money to review what is already well known.

PhL0aTeR - that $75 class sounds good!

[Asha'man]

been there, done that

http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4784

So where exactly was your $75 class? I am but a poor college student with way too much to do, and a couple hours for relatively cheap sounds just fine to me.

[Mista Bukit]

Try Dennis Young at the shooting school in Aurora. $85

[Mista Bukit]

Try Dennis Young at the shooting school in Aurora. $85

http://www.theshootingschool.org/index.html

Sorry I forgot the link on the first post

[PhL0aTeR]

So where exactly was your $75 class? I am but a poor college student with way too much to do, and a couple hours for relatively cheap sounds just fine to me.



PhL0aTeR - that $75 class sounds good!


The guy's name is Michael K. Holler Number is 719-687-5056

Definitely provides the bare minimum for obtaining your CCW. OTOH he also offers other classes about law and ethics

[TINCUP AL]

Not trying to get off topic or stir the pot but, carring a concealed weapon for personal defense comes with a huge responsibility, and a clear understanding of what you can/can't or should/shouldn't do. Taking a proper in depth class is highly reccomended. From my experience of both shooting with Leo's and helping to train military personel, they can benefit from a good class as much as the private individual if not more in some cases. If you are an active Leo with a current understanding of how the law works concerning concealed carry, then I would agree that a minimal class would be fine. Other than that, you would probably benefit from a good training class. Keep in mind, that all of this is just my opinion. Everyone has one. Good luck

[Atrain]

been there, done that

http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4784

GAHHHH! The past! [AR15][Faint]

[SigsRule]

I was all set to get a FL license because my military experience was all that was required and it was unlikely it would get entered in the CO database. Well, with the new CO laws I will need to get the CO license.

My question is - who provides a "minimal" class that will meet the CO requirements. I have no desire to spend a weekend doing live fire drills and spending a few hundred dollars. If I want to take an advanced class fine, but for now I just need a low cost class that covers the letter of the law.

IMHO, while training is good for a first timer, for former military or LEO the training should be optional. The requirement was just something the NRA got into the bill to support $$$ their instructors.

Thanks


I don't have the regs in front of me but you might want to check again. I thought the rule was written that if you could demonstrate "recent" military experience you didn't need a class. I went into it thinking that and discovered that "recent" was defined to be something like within the last two years - in any case I was retired 5 or more years earlier so wound up taking a course at The Shootist in Lakewood, CO for $150 (I think, it's been awhile ago) to get my CCW in CO.

[Rusty]

I believe Sigsrule is correct on the Military experience.. It would be worth the call to your county Sheriff.

[Jason]

check here

http://cbi.state.co.us/ccw/relatedstats.asp

or

http://cbi.state.co.us/ccw/relatedstats.asp

or here

http://www.coloradocarry.com/forums/

[Ranger353]

I am an NRA pistol and shotgun instructor as well as a certified law enforcement handgun/shotgun instructor. I would be willing to create a course for concealed carry that provides basic to intermediate level training. But, what are the specific focus areas that everyone is looking for?

The places you can't go while packing?

What to do when stopped by a LEO?

How to avoid getting into a situation that culminates into deadly force?

How to and how not to carry a handgun?

Drawing techniques?

Any other ideas?

Rob[Neene3]

[wyzardd]

My personal opinion, Ranger -

Colorado law, including places you can and can't carry

When you can and can't use deadly force
When you should and shouldn't use deadly force (this is probably very subjective)

Carry tips (including holster and weapon suggestions)

Firearm safety (Coopers 4 rules, at least)

Can you cram some draw techniques into a short time? I guess you could give them the basics of a couple and then cajole them to go home and practice, but you might have 20 guys that already know what they're doing and only 1 or 2 that don't.

Maybe what to expect if they actually shoot someone, like how to report it to the police. Also, what to do if they draw and don't shoot.

If you're doing an all day class some range time would be nice, but I think learning how to shoot shouldn't necessarily be part of a CCW class. If someone needs to learn to draw and shoot, that's a bit much for a class that's only going to run a few hours and has people of all skill levels. Should be separate, IMHO.

4 hours seems about right to me.

[abert]

I came across this, low cost and at home!

http://www.highlandsranchfirearms.com/

[Jason]

I came across this, low cost and at home!

http://www.highlandsranchfirearms.com/

I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND that type of class.

These people are the ones that are going to screw it up for everyone. I feel very unsafe with under trained people carrying guns.

If for some reason you need to protect yourself and have to face a lawyer in a court room I can hear it now:


lawyer: What type of training did you receive to carry a firearm?

You: Well, I took a self study class over the internet.

lawyer: Did you have any personal instruction to handle a firearm?

You: No, just the online test.

As an NRA Instructor I would recommend you take a class from an Instructor that is not out to make a quick buck.

[Great-Kazoo]

I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND that type of class.

These people are the ones that are going to screw it up for everyone. I feel very unsafe with under trained people carrying guns.

If for some reason you need to protect yourself and have to face a lawyer in a court room I can hear it now:



As an NRA Instructor I would recommend you take a class from an Instructor that is not out to make a quick buck.

while i agree with all you have posted keep in mind a hunter safety card is the min requirement for obtaining a CCW.
i don't feel thats enough (Flame ON)

With that said when i do a CCW class its no more than 2 students ,
classroom and lots of range time. my main concern is, that one who considers getting a CCW think hard about the ramifications of using deadly force.
sure everyone is entitled to own a gun but actually carry one thats a different game.
yes i'll get slammed by the minions for my "belief" but in reality we all know someone who shouldn't own much less be near a gun. should those same folks carry one ?

[Jason]

while i agree with all you have posted keep in mind a hunter safety card is the min requirement for obtaining a CCW.
i don't feel thats enough (Flame ON)

With that said when i do a CCW class its no more than 2 students ,
classroom and lots of range time. my main concern is, that one who considers getting a CCW think hard about the ramifications of using deadly force.
sure everyone is entitled to own a gun but actually carry one thats a different game.
yes i'll get slammed by the minions for my "belief" but in reality we all know someone who shouldn't own much less be near a gun. should those same folks carry one ?

I agree with you 100%... I am also a Utah Instructor and the training requirement is spelled out very nicely.

[BadShot]

Sorry, that pesky Amendment doesn't allow you or anyone to determine who should be allowed to be near a gun. So yeah, as a fellow instructor I've seen students who need MORE training and MORE attention from us.. but short of a serious mental handicap or a fellony, I'll just disagree.

Then again I'm also a strong proponent of train, train and train again and I push that belief on the shooters I instruct.

[Great-Kazoo]

Sorry, that pesky Amendment doesn't allow you or anyone to determine who should be allowed to be near a gun. So yeah, as a fellow instructor I've seen students who need MORE training and MORE attention from us.. but short of a serious mental handicap or a fellony, I'll just disagree.

Then again I'm also a strong proponent of train, train and train again and I push that belief on the shooters I instruct.


i too believe in train/practice practice practice.
it's my certification and my choice (there's a familiar saying) who i decide to teach or not. you can sign off on anyone that ask, i don't. its not the amendment i'm taking issue with. it's the acceptable level of training or lack of, being advertised as YOUR ONE STOP CCW SHOP
come on, get your certificate on line. you condone that?

[wyzardd]

Gotta agree with Karl (although with fewer exclamation points) and BadShot. The individual is responsible for seeking out training if they feel it's necessary, the State should not mandate it.
I'm sure it's purely coincidental, but it seems to me that (aside from liberals) the people who stand to make money from requiring ever more training are the most vocal in proclaiming that John and Jane Q. Public are incompetent.

Of course, we all are highly trained and trustworthy, it's them that shouldn't be allowed to carry. Battered woman needs to defend herself? Better require a 2-day, $2000 class first. And maybe a 5 day waiting period while we're at it, just to make sure she understands the responsibility she's going to take on.

[Great-Kazoo]

those who didn't have the backbone to put through a statewide CCW after Columbine have put us where we are today. while that one wasn't perfect it had more support and less regulation then the current one in place today.
the rights we have vs. the rights we're given are here because the californication of CO has taken us down this path. plus the weak turn out every election year.
how many here vote every election?

yes the individual should seek out instruction if they feel they need it. and not be mandated. thats due to weak gov officials who bend to opinion vs. what their constituitents say. until that time we're stuck with having to get some form of certification before the permit's issued. could be worse. we could be dealing with the shall issue by county sheriff at their whim instead of the statewide system in place now.

[abert]

When I started this thread it was just a practical question of where I could find the least expensive method to get the "paper" necessary for a CCW.

It seems to have expanded into some very good discussion on rights and responsibilities. In the end it all comes down to what the individual feels they need. Some may need a review of the law, some practical training, some might like some advance training. As far as the law goes if you need to shoot someone, as long as you are in the law you are protected – it doesn’t matter if you never had a class because you are current military (even if you never qualified with a handgun) or took an at home course or spent a full week in classroom studies and running live fire drills in the mud. As far as law goes it's all the same paper certification to cover the CCW requirements. The only two questions you need to ask yourself are do I know the law cold and do I have the skill and resolve to use a handgun. How you answer the questions should point you to what you need to do.

I tend to agree with the posters who feel that once you let the STATE determine requirements then your rights soon become privileges - how long before the requirements change, become more difficult - impossible. It’s only been four years since the new CCW law and we have already lost the use of out of state CCW licenses (FL) - you can just bet more changes are on the way (and not for the better).

As for myself, well this weekend I got lucky as my neighbor, who's son is a Handgun Instructor with the CO State Patrol did a private all day class for a few of us - for free! The best part was the review of the law from a LEO perspective and also picked up a new close quarters technique on the range. It provided some nice extras, but in the end certification is certification and that $50 at home certification would have been just fine with me!

[Roger]

Sorry I'm late as usual.

I'm an NRA Training Counselar, which means not only am I an instructor, but I can train instructors.

Colorado is an intersting place.

1) Be sure you have a real instructor.
2) Get copies of his credential and include them with your application. Make sure the credentials are from an accredited organization, and that they are not expired.
3) Take a real in-person class.
4) Ask for a live fire session even if its not required.
5) Keep your targets and have your instructor sign and date them if possible.

Some counties require the NRA Basic Pistol Class. Some will allow the Home Firearms Safety Class. Since the statute says you must take a safety class. But I would take a handgun specific class that way there is no doubt as to what you took.

I was a Utah instructor as well. Now that Colorado will no longer recognize out of state permits for Colorado residents, I let it lapse. Although Flordia was my personal favorite. It still has value if you're traveling as it has or had some reciprocity that Colorado lacked.

Know that a basic class is just that. You check the box and you can get a permit. It does not necessarily teach you anything about actually using a gun in a gunfight. After you get the required for permit class done, then go take a real defensive handgun class or 'tactical' pistol class. Shoot lots of ammo and learn how to shoot under stress and in wierd places or positions.

Then practice as often as you can. Only then will you really be ready to carry a concealed handgun effectively.

And remember, don't skimp on holsters and magazine pouches. They mean as much or more then the gun sometimes.

[TINCUP AL]

Roger hit the nail on the head. Very few basic classes really teach you anything at all. It satisfies the requirement to get your permit, but you are not really learning anything. Carrying a gun for self defense is a huge responsibility and should not be taken lightly. You owe it to yourself to get some decent training and you definately need to practice and train with your handgun. It is unbelievable to me the number of classes out there that don't even require the student to fire their gun. These types of classes shouldn't even be allowed in my opinion. The bottom line is find a good instructor with a good class and then practice, practice, practice. Good luck.

[ferdelance]

PDSS is an excellent defensive shooting school . they have a private range and for the ccw it is $80.00 time depends on the person taking the class.
They also have a level I and level II a tactical carbine, shotgun,terrorest interdition course. The owner is a retired X Spec Ops army dude.
I took the whole enchiloda. This dude is good. He has multple targets rolling on the ground and he gets your heart pumped up and let me tell you that make a big differance when that happens . This what happens when your adrenaline kicks in.he explains it all
call Ed 719- 659-9858.the best realistic training Ive seen around here.
those cheep class are CRAP

[SigsRule]

This discussion is talking about apples and oranges. Take drivers' license courses. A simple driver's ed course gets you a reduced insurance rate but isn't required to get a driver's license. Then you can spend a lot and go to one of the "racing" schools to get a race car driver's license.

It's an analogous situation to the discussion about levels of classes for CCW. Except having a driver's license isn't a right supposedly guaranteed by the Bill of Rights while having firearms is supposed to be a right. Yet the "pivilege" doesn't require a class while the "right" does. Seems backwards.

I'm with the group that says the minimum class requirements per law to qualify for the CCW should be enough. High-Speed-Low-Drag shooters, just like the race car driver equivalent, should get the best follow-on training they can afford. Note the key use of the term follow-on training. No one should be required to take a LFI course or anything similar to qualify for what should be a right in the first place.

[Roger]

Well I won't argue the point. But, that being said, know this.

If you as a private citizen carry a gun, and are required to shoot someone, there will be an investigation. You and your level of training will be torn to shreds. And regardless of wether or not it was a good shoot or not, you still can be sued in civil court. Even police officers can be sued in civil court even though they are not prosecuted criminally or found at fault in an internal affairs investigation. I have seen it happen.

Often times the difference in the outcome of a civil liability suit rests with your ability to defend yourself to a bunch of people who know nothing about guns. Or to law enforcement investigators who are not sympathetic to your cause. As a result I would suspect that a person who meets the minimum requirements, just enough to check the box as they say, will stand a better chance of being sued.

Training is part of being prepared. Just like carrying a gun is part of being prepared. If you want to walk the streets of life with a minimal amount of training that's fine. But if and when you encounter something other then a static paper target, you may find you are not up to the challenge. And its as much about mind set and mental toughness as it is about firearms training. Additional and or advanced training may also prepare you for how to talk to police, or lawyers should you be involved in an incident. The NRA has acknowledged this fact by stating that there must be a legal liability section in the personal protection classes. Those sections must be taught by a lawyer or a certified police officer who can teach on liability issues.

Its not about being a high-speed operator, its about training enough to be alive at the end of the day.

Nobody is required to train above the basic level. Nobody will force you to do so. So do what you feel you should. And hopefully it will be enough.

[SigsRule]

As a result I would suspect that a person who meets the minimum requirements, just enough to check the box as they say, will stand a better chance of being sued.

There's no disagreement with everything you said except the quoted part above. You're going to be in danger of being sued no matter what level of training you've had. In fact, an aggressive lawyer could argue that getting more training shows you have an aggresive mindset and are deliberately going out looking for trouble. Lawyers can twist anything and you can be completely in the right and still be sued.

Still, I agree with you about training. I'm a believer in all the training you can afford coupled with plenty of practice. There's a half dozen well-thumbed books or more on my shelf by Ayoob, Suarez, and others on the preparation, mindset, and surviving a deadly force encounter. I shoot IDPA whenever I can (yes I know it's not real, but it is practice drawing and shooting under some stress). I'd love to go to some real life-based training like Suarez's. But more importantly I recognize my limitations when I carry for personal protection and operate in condition yellow avoiding rather than confronting situations that are iffy.

[Ranger353]

There's no disagreement with everything you said except the quoted part above. You're going to be in danger of being sued no matter what level of training you've had. In fact, an aggressive lawyer could argue that getting more training shows you have an aggresive mindset and are deliberately going out looking for trouble. Lawyers can twist anything and you can be completely in the right and still be sued...I recognize my limitations when I carry for personal protection and operate in condition yellow avoiding rather than confronting situations that are iffy.

I do not agree that more formal training makes you more at risk for being sued, it is your actions or inactions that set the circumstances for the encounter. Although under Colorado law you do not have a duty to retreat, the fact that you know this and still choose retreat as your first course of action will make a difference. Only after you choose retreat and the threat to you or others has not subsided can you say you were left with no other options. I understand that retreat is not always available and each person will have to make that decision themselves if, God forbid you have to make that decision.

Here's the bottom line: The last thing you need to be thinking about when you draw your weapon is "am I going to be sued?" If you have received solid formal training, like Roger is referring to, then when you do have to draw your weapon it is because there is a bona fide life or death fight at hand and you have to react fast. If you hesitate it may cost you more than the price of a training class.