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jhood001
10-31-2012, 15:26
Hmmm.

Court OKs warrantless use of hidden surveillance cameras

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57542510-38/court-oks-warrantless-use-of-hidden-surveillance-cameras/



Police are allowed in some circumstances to install hidden surveillance cameras on private property without obtaining a search warrant, a federal judge said yesterday.
CNET has learned that U.S. District Judge William Griesbach ruled that it was reasonable for Drug Enforcement Administration agents to enter rural property without permission -- and without a warrant -- to install multiple "covert digital surveillance cameras" in hopes of uncovering evidence that 30 to 40 marijuana plants were being grown.
This is the latest case to highlight how advances in technology are causing the legal system to rethink how Americans' privacy rights are protected by law. In January, the Supreme Court rejected warrantless GPS tracking after previously rejecting warrantless thermal imaging, but it has not yet ruled on warrantless cell phone tracking or warrantless use of surveillance cameras placed on private property without permission.
Yesterday Griesbach adopted a recommendation by U.S. Magistrate Judge William Callahan dated October 9. That recommendation said that the DEA's warrantless surveillance did not violate the Fourth Amendment, which prohibits unreasonable searches and requires that warrants describe the place that's being searched.
"The Supreme Court has upheld the use of technology as a substitute for ordinary police surveillance," Callahan wrote.
Two defendants in the case, Manuel Mendoza and Marco Magana of Green Bay, Wis., have been charged with federal drug crimes after DEA agent Steven Curran claimed to have discovered more than 1,000 marijuana plants grown on the property, and face possible life imprisonment and fines of up to $10 million. Mendoza and Magana asked Callahan to throw out the video evidence on Fourth Amendment grounds, noting that "No Trespassing" signs were posted throughout the heavily wooded, 22-acre property owned by Magana and that it also had a locked gate.

U.S. Attorney James Santelle, who argued that warrantless surveillance cameras on private property "does not violate the Fourth Amendment."
(Credit: U.S. Department of Justice)
Callahan based his reasoning on a 1984 Supreme Court case called Oliver v. United States, in which a majority of the justices said that "open fields" could be searched without warrants because they're not covered by the Fourth Amendment. What lawyers call "curtilage," on the other hand, meaning the land immediately surrounding a residence, still has greater privacy protections.
"Placing a video camera in a location that allows law enforcement to record activities outside of a home and beyond protected curtilage does not violate the Fourth Amendment," Justice Department prosecutors James Santelle and William Lipscomb told Callahan.
As digital sensors become cheaper and wireless connections become more powerful, the Justice Department's argument would allow police to install cameras on private property without court oversight -- subject only to budgetary limits and political pressure.
About four days after the DEA's warrantless installation of surveillance cameras, a magistrate judge did subsequently grant a warrant. But attorneys for Mendoza and Magana noticed that the surveillance took place before the warrant was granted.
"That one's actions could be recorded on their own property, even if the property is not within the curtilage, is contrary to society's concept of privacy," wrote Brett Reetz, Magana's attorney, in a legal filing last month. "The owner and his guest... had reason to believe that their activities on the property were not subject to video surveillance as it would constitute a violation of privacy."
A jury trial has been scheduled for January 22.

SuperiorDG
10-31-2012, 15:42
Hmmm.

Court OKs warrantless use of hidden surveillance cameras

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57542510-38/court-oks-warrantless-use-of-hidden-surveillance-cameras/

Just shows how little our forefathers understood how technology would be used in the future. They didn't write it in therefore its free game. Because they didn't understand, today's government can do what they want. [Bang]

Monky
10-31-2012, 15:49
Just shows how little our forefathers understood how technology would be used in the future. They didn't write it in therefore its free game. Because they didn't understand, today's government can do what they want. [Bang]

Pretty sure technology wasn't on their mind, it's not plausible to think they had a clue that we would be capable to have digital video cameras for surveillance. Tech has out paced the law and they are struggling to catch up.

Laws are a lot harder to implement or change to keep pace with tech.

jhood001
10-31-2012, 15:55
While I agree with you both that technology is a big issue and currently resides in a gray area, in this case, trespass was required to get the technology into place.

Trespassing and seeing criminal activity on imagery attained from planted cameras is no different than trespassing and seeing criminal activity with their own eyes.

Total bullshit and I don't see how this can stand.

sellersm
10-31-2012, 16:12
While I agree with you both that technology is a big issue and currently resides in a gray area, in this case, trespass was required to get the technology into place.

Trespassing and seeing criminal activity on imagery attained from planted cameras is no different than trespassing and seeing criminal activity with their own eyes.

Total bullshit and I don't see how this can stand.

Agreed.

Sawin
10-31-2012, 16:26
What will scare folks even more is if anything captured on these illegally installed cameras is admissible as evidence in court...

hatidua
10-31-2012, 16:43
IF, one of these cameras was to be destroyed by the land owner, I'm guessing said land owner would be on the hook for that as well?

merl
10-31-2012, 16:48
have fun thinking about this decision in combination with the OK for drones in US airspace.

sellersm
10-31-2012, 16:51
have fun thinking about this decision in combination with the OK for drones in US airspace.

i.e.; the state of Washington! They're battling that very issue right now.

http://www.king5.com/news/cities/seattle/Seattle-Police-Dept-has-permission-to-operate-drones-148339225.html

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2012/apr/30/drones-patrolling-washington-border/

http://nodroneswashington.blogspot.com/

BPTactical
10-31-2012, 17:08
While I agree with you both that technology is a big issue and currently resides in a gray area, in this case, trespass was required to get the technology into place.

Trespassing and seeing criminal activity on imagery attained from planted cameras is no different than trespassing and seeing criminal activity with their own eyes.

Total bullshit and I don't see how this can stand.

"Fruit of the Poison Tree"
I.E. Evidence obtained by illegal means shall be inadmissible.

Great-Kazoo
10-31-2012, 17:24
When RICO was bantered about, prior to becoming law, everyone said, who cares. Once they pass it the feds will be less restricted going after motorcycle gangs.
RICO morphed in to VFW and Knights of Columbus poker nights OOPS

Patriot Act was NO Biggie. Anyone really think the .gov can pull it off. OOPS
Now this.


WE ARE ALL OUTLAWS IN THE EYES OF AMERICA.

Teufelhund
10-31-2012, 21:31
Whenever the legislators endeavor to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people, who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence.
-John Locke

raz-n-co
11-02-2012, 21:44
scary stuff, but I'm sure it would never be used in a bad way.

Skullworks
11-03-2012, 02:08
IF, one of these cameras was to be destroyed by the land owner, I'm guessing said land owner would be on the hook for that as well?

If I found it "abandoned" on my land it would get re-tasked.

legaleagle
11-04-2012, 08:29
The outcome will certainly be interesting. Best thing for the defense to do is get their objections and issues on the record and file an appeal if it does not go their way.

Sounds like BS to me, too. If the cameras were in a public place and could oversee the private property, then I can see this working as the search was done from a legal place without having to access private property without a warrant. This follows the same principles as plain view doctrine. However, seizing the evidence from that search may require a warrant.

I do not recall the case, but there is well established law where officers could not see over a privacy fence. They then obtained a ladder and climbed it next to the fence to look over the top. Search was valid, but seizure of evidence required warrant under 4th.

It may also be that this judge really sees the problem, but does not want to give into the bad guys as being right. So, the judge denies their motions at every turn. Being represented by counsel, presumably competent, the judge justifies his actions by saying they will need to appeal and their lawyer will have to properly preserve the record for appeal. Afterall, it is not frivilous to argue a good faith change in the law. Not saying this is the right thing to do, but plausible. The correct path is to require the prosecution to prove its case beyond reasoanble doubt, subject to evidenciary rules to allow and preclude evidence. If the People want a change in the law, then they should be the ones to appeal for such a change, with doubt being resolved in the favor of the accused.

With the TV shows like CSI, etc., photogrpaic and video evidence in more compelling than testimony of what a person saw. Photos and videos may cause some psychological phenomenon where accusers and juries are more predisposed to believe what they see and allow that prejuduce of their senses to ignore the fact that the accused is innocent until proven guilty. With technological advances today, how many potos have you seen that were doctored or just fake, that you thought were real. Very compelling nonetheless.