View Full Version : PSA/Sales Pitch On Your Home Furnace
Just letting you guys know that there is a new Dept of Energy rule going into affect May 1 2013. Basically it says that CO residents can only install 90% efficient furnaces in your home regardless of situation. https://www.acca.org/archives/industry-resources/government-affairs/hot-air/5808
The problem with this is 90% efficient furnaces cost more to purchase, cost more to install and have very specific problems with installation situations. Basically they have to been vented with PVC which requires the installer to run the pipe and vent it outside of your house. Not a big deal normally, but this can be a SERIOUS problem with condos, attics, garages and FINISHED BASEMENTS. There is nothing worse to spend a bunch of $$$ on your basement and then find out we need to tear a bunch of drywall down from your ceiling..[Rant1]or worse, relocate a furnace/ductwork because your house builder put the furnace in the attic or garage.
If you guys have a furnace thats about ready to bite the dust and you don't want a 90% efficient furnace then you need to do it before May 2013. If your furnace is 10 years old or something along those lines you quite a few more years ahead of you. Normally the 80% furnaces are good for about 18-20 years.
OK, Here comes the sales pitch.....[Tooth]
Many of you know I am a HVAC/R guy up here in northern CO. If you guys need a quote or at least any advise on what you should do then shoot me a PM. I just cleared my inbox.
http://www.ar-15.co/forums/showthread.php?t=20783
scare them into submission![ROFL1]
mine is only 3 years old, so hopefully it is good to go.
how does one go about finding out if it is 80% or 90%?
scare them into submission![ROFL1]
mine is only 3 years old, so hopefully it is good to go.
how does one go about finding out if it is 80% or 90%?
Does it have 2" or 3" PVC coming off of it? If it does its 90%. If it has a metal vent then it is 80%
Great-Kazoo
11-02-2012, 18:30
Who cares, i have a HVAC guy down the block, who owes me:)
Who cares, i have a HVAC guy down the block, who owes me:)
Owes you what??? Other than the $14 for the lapping compound that YOU JUST ORDERED YESTERDAY !!!!! [ROFL1]
scare them into submission![ROFL1]
?
This is the truth... a great way to lie to your customers! Here in the springs there are several companies lying to people! I don't know about any area but the ones I work in but regional building department is just now adopted 2009 codes. So this supposed mandate is not coming as soon as all these fucking companies are claiming. Call your local building department and find out the facts first. I can only speak for my particular areas.. in the original posters arear it may be true. I would suggest if you have doubt call the building department!
Ready Room
11-02-2012, 18:58
"No permits no worry."...this
yeah till you hire a hack and he forgets to properly glue a fitting, or the b-vent is not connected properly and you have carbon monoxide poisioning!
As much as I despise the local building deptment for having their hands in everybodys wallet more than they should... they have a place.
Does this apply to commercial buildings and multi-family like apartment buildings?
gnihcraes
11-02-2012, 20:07
what if mine is pvc and says 93.4% on it? Ok right? :)
what if mine is pvc and says 93.4% on it? Ok right? :)
Yeah. Your fine.
As much as I despise the local building deptment for having their hands in everybodys wallet more than they should... they have a place.
Wow. Debbie downer in this thread. Any direct experiences you can share that everyone else should look out for?
This is the truth... a great way to lie to your customers! Here in the springs there are several companies lying to people! I don't know about any area but the ones I work in but regional building department is just now adopted 2009 codes. So this supposed mandate is not coming as soon as all these fucking companies are claiming. Call your local building department and find out the facts first. I can only speak for my particular areas.. in the original posters arear it may be true. I would suggest if you have doubt call the building department!
You calling me a liar? You better read up. When I first heard about this I called Fort Collins building department. They had no rule about this, but this is coming from Federal, not local. I ignored it for a while since Ft.Collins hadn't heard anything about it. Then I heard Tom Martino talking about it with some other company. Decided to do a little research and haven't found anything debunking this.
I expect an apology for calling me a liar. Here is the Direct Final Rule as they call it.
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/appliance_standards/pdfs/rfrac_hp_effec_dates_drf_oct31.pdf
DATES: The direct final rule published on June 27, 2011 (76 FR 37408) became effective on October 25, 2011. Compliance with the standards in the direct final rule will be required on May 1, 2013 for non-weatherized furnaces and on January 1, 2015 for weatherized furnaces and central air conditioners and heat pumps.
I have heard of possibly a exemption waiver that was pleaded for by certain organizations. I have yet to verify if it was adopted yet or not. As far as I know this is coming down the pipe line.
Since this is just a "rule" and not law its possible that if Romney gets in his people could change the rule.
What makes a PVP pipe a more efficient vent than a metal pipe? Also, please answer my earlier question.
Wow. Debbie downer in this thread. Any direct experiences you can share that everyone else should look out for?
My experience with building inspectors has been a joke. Its not about public safety but rather about making money with permit fees. If it was about safety they would make the permits $10 or something like that.....They just want their money.
I do work frequently at a retirement home were they have over a 1,000,000 BTU boiler venting directly out the wall 4' from an entrance and less then 3' from residences windows... The building was built like that about 6-7 years ago..... It passed inspection. [Bang]
USAFGopherMike
11-02-2012, 20:48
What are your thoughts on "on-demand" water heaters? I hear they're very efficient and can save a bunch of money while making the carbon footprint people happy. Is there a tax credit for them?
What makes a PVP pipe a more efficient vent than a metal pipe? Also, please answer my earlier question.
The 90% furnaces have an extra heat exchanger that pulls more heat from the flue gases. What happens is the flue gases are cooled down below their dew point and water condenses from the gases. You have to have a drain nearby to drain the condensate and you have to use a vent that doesn't rust....... PVC doesn't rust.
Second question:
From what I understand it is for any "non weatherized" furnace... So that means one made for indoors. Commercial building that use roof top units don't have to comply...Yet.....
Are your furnaces made for indoors? If so then when it comes time to change them out you will need to upgrade to 90%.
What are your thoughts on "on-demand" water heaters? I hear they're very efficient and can save a bunch of money while making the carbon footprint people happy. Is there a tax credit for them?
On demand water heaters are nice but pricey. They generally require a separate vent due to the amount of BTUs they consume which tends to run the install price up . They can be used for boiler applications as well. As far as Tax Credits, I'm not really sure.
I do some work on boilers and on demand water heaters but they are not my specialty. I know the Rinnai brand is pretty nice and have done some work on them but they are rather expensive and usually require separate venting.
You calling me a liar? You better read up. When I first heard about this I called Fort Collins building department. They had no rule about this, but this is coming from Federal, not local. I ignored it for a while since Ft.Collins hadn't heard anything about it. Then I heard Tom Martino talking about it with some other company. Decided to do a little research and haven't found anything debunking this.
I expect an apology for calling me a liar. Here is the Direct Final Rule as they call it.
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/appliance_standards/pdfs/rfrac_hp_effec_dates_drf_oct31.pdf
I have heard of possibly a exemption waiver that was pleaded for by certain organizations. I have yet to verify if it was adopted yet or not. As far as I know this is coming down the pipe line.
Since this is just a "rule" and not law its possible that if Romney gets in his people could change the rule.
I never called you a liar. I can only speak for my area like I said in my post. I do not work where you do and I do not know the rules and regs there. I can tell you that I have spoke with several inspectors here and they all said that it will be later down the line.the problem I have is people here in the springs using it as a scare tactic to generate sales.
I never called you a liar. I can only speak for my area like I said in my post. I do not work where you do and I do not know the rules and regs there. I can tell you that I have spoke with several inspectors here and they all said that it will be later down the line.the problem I have is people here in the springs using it as a scare tactic to generate sales.
Your right about people using it as scare tactics. I know companies that do that frequently and tell people that their 10 year old furnace should be replaced and better do it now. I don't do that.
The reality is this rule WILL cost people a LOT of money if you have an application that's not applicable for running PVC out the house.
If your furnace is on its last legs and you've thought about changing it out soon, you might as well do it know unless you have no problem upgrading to 90%. If its no problem for you then let the furnace run till it dies.
And for the record this rule applies to the Northern Zone of the U.S. which is the entire state of CO. So this rule applies to you as well.
I absolutely believe a federal mandate is coming.... but not in 2013. Way way to much controversy involved with which a rash decision. 2015-2017 yea maybe. But until it is law it is speculation!
Sorry if it came off as an attack on you and your business practices! That was never my intent. I sure your a stand up Guy. Just another squirrel trying to get a nut.:). The whole thing has been blown way out of the norm down here. Local guys running t.v. commercials saying replace it now or else
Thank you for answering. Sounds like this could be a nightmare if you are having to replace furnaces in a building with 8+ units.
Great-Kazoo
11-02-2012, 21:24
Sorry if it came off as an attack on you and your business practices! That was never my intent. I sure your a stand up Guy. Just another squirrel trying to get a nut.:). The whole thing has been blown way out of the norm down here. Local guys running t.v. commercials saying replace it now or else
I don' think you were attacking bry personally, just using abroad brush. Yes there are scare tactics being used.
Disclaimer: He lives down the block. He also did HVAC related work prior to the whole "hey you like guns too" part of life.
With that out front............................................
Brycom has been stand up in my personal and business dealings with him. EVERYTHING he has done for our family to make sure our HVAC equip is in top shape he did, with out wanting an arm and a knee. He never at anytime implied we "needed a furnace right away" or there were issues he found, while doing a service on the unit.
His prices have been competitive if not below the majority of quotes we received from "The Experts"
Do i trust him, yes Would he try and "pull the wool over your eyes" to make a buck, no.
You can go with his recommendations or not. Doing homework regarding said codes / laws i would if i needed a new furnace. Now watch, my heat craps out @ 2 in morning after posting this.
Thank you for answering. Sounds like this could be a nightmare if you are having to replace furnaces in a building with 8+ units.
That is the type of situation that is the problem. Apparently the DOE was made aware of these types of problems but they don't care. In my opinion this is the problem with different agencies. They can rule by regulation with no law. Basically a bunch of idiots behind desks need to feel important about their lives and they come up with this crap.
I could understand new construction but to include retro fits is down right insane.
Could you imagine having a $2800 furnace install on top of $2000 of plaster repair??? Alot of people can barely afford the furnace!
Sorry if it came off as an attack on you and your business practices! That was never my intent. I sure your a stand up Guy. Just another squirrel trying to get a nut.:). The whole thing has been blown way out of the norm down here. Local guys running t.v. commercials saying replace it now or else
Yeah.... I got a little butt hurt earlier. No hard feelings.
Same type of thing happened years ago with the 13 seer A/C mandate. I made people aware of it and told them if they are thinking about replacing it, do it now before the cost goes up $800. We sold a lot of A/C units but I never tried to scare them. I just informed them of the situation so they could make an educated decision.
thanks for the information, im in the process of buy a new construction house and i request the upgrade of a 92% efficiency furnace for another $900, i don't do it because any rule, i do it for the economy in the gas bills.
i dont thinks that the installation of a 90%+ is a big deal in normal houses, remember, the only good thing is not the rule, is the economy in your bills.
thanks for the information, im in the process of buy a new construction house and i request the upgrade of a 92% efficiency furnace for another $900, i don't do it because any rule, i do it for the economy in the gas bills.
i dont thinks that the installation of a 90%+ is a big deal in normal houses, remember, the only good thing is not the rule, is the economy in your bills.
I actually tell people they should get the 90s. Problem is they cost more, require more maintenance and generally crap out in about 15 years... Except the old Amana 90s. Those ones lasted for ever.
thanks for the information, im in the process of buy a new construction house and i request the upgrade of a 92% efficiency furnace for another $900, i don't do it because any rule, i do it for the economy in the gas bills.
i dont thinks that the installation of a 90%+ is a big deal in normal houses, remember, the only good thing is not the rule, is the economy in your bills.
Also if they give you the option, DON'T put the A/C in. The generally charge about $5k for an A/C when you can get a local company to put one in for $2500 or less.
I actually tell people they should get the 90s. Problem is they cost more, require more maintenance and generally crap out in about 15 years... Except the old Amana 90s. Those ones lasted for ever.
require more maintenance? in a simple words, why?
require more maintenance? in a simple words, why?
They create water due to their efficiency so they have drain it somewhere. Gaskets will tend to leak water after some time, have plugged up drains, they have an extra pressure switch and sometimes their venting gets plugged up with snow.
Generally a 90% will have more service calls than a 80%.
If you get your furnace serviced regularly then you should be good to go.
Damn I miss the Rheem criterion II. With spark ignition ... bullet proof design as long as you keep the flame sensor clean
Damn I miss the Rheem criterion II. With spark ignition ... bullet proof design as long as you keep the flame sensor clean
I've always liked the spark ignition. Hardly ever failed. If I remember right, the Criterion had the modulating gas valve and it would try to match the heat loss of you house so it hardly ever cycled on/off.
The company I worked for in IL put in alot of Rheem furnaces.
We were a rheem dealer for 12 years, Ave been installing trane for the last 3 . I like there equipment extremely service friendly. What primary brand do you install?
We were a rheem dealer for 12 years, Ave been installing trane for the last 3 . I like there equipment extremely service friendly. What primary brand do you install?
I do more commercial refrigeration now with the company I work for. The company I work for does some residential HVAC but not a ton. We mostly put in goodman or payne that we get from the insurance work we get.
I just have a little side business that I do to put food on the table. Usually I put in Goodman. They have been a pretty decent furnace ever since they sold to Amana.
Back in IL the company I worked for was the largest Amana dealer in the state during the 90s. Then they sold Rheem for a while and then switched to Trane. I liked Trane but the 90% were leaking in the first year. Turns out I was the first guy in IL to find out that the factory wasn't using self tapping screws in the recoup transition recepticle and it was cracking the plastic and causing them to leak. It was a pain in the ass.
Maybe the replacement should be coal furnace!
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