View Full Version : F**K everyone that voted for ocare
buckshotbarlow
11-05-2012, 13:08
The small biz that I work for just said our new premiums go up 13.5% for HC because of that garbage legislation. I'm so frigg'n pissed off i'm looking a new job. Who else has the same problem? This hits me hard as it impacts my bad habit of buying and shooting. No more big pheasant hunts because of this...
kidicarus13
11-05-2012, 13:22
The small biz that I work for just said our new premiums go up 13.5% for HC because of that garbage legislation. I'm so frigg'n pissed off i'm looking a new job. Who else has the same problem? This hits me hard as it impacts my bad habit of buying and shooting. No more big pheasant hunts because of this...
Only 13.5%?! Hell, sounds like you made out better than most with Obamacare.
ChunkyMonkey
11-05-2012, 13:24
Sorry to hear that. As discussed before, the Obama care is designed to hit people's pocket book after the election. Only few have gotten their premium increase notice. 14% is almost 3x the typical inflation year.
14% is almost 3x the typical inflation year.
and about double the standard rate of health care inflation if I remember numbers correctly.
Hell dude 12% - 18% was normal before ocare. Now wait and see what it does... We are getting a sh!tty high deductible/health savings plan next year where you have to shell out $3000 before they start kicking in.
My HC actually got better in my opinion... Still a $2500 deductible before 80/20, BUT preventative care is covered 100%. My wife and I are expecting our 2nd one in Feb so that helps us out ALOT. The first year we had our son, we paid over 8k in premiums and HC costs.
bigmyk2k
11-05-2012, 14:25
I was on a personal plan. As a relatively young, and healthy male, my premiums got bumped 50% right away. Almost entirely because they weren't allowed to bias premiums based on sex. So, I was paying a premium based on the risk that someone my age would get pregnant.
As a guy, I was paying more because I might get pregnant.
Nice.
I own my own business, I just got hit with about a 15% increase in premiums.
I was on a personal plan. As a relatively young, and healthy male, my premiums got bumped 50% right away. Almost entirely because they weren't allowed to bias premiums based on sex. So, I was paying a premium based on the risk that someone my age would get pregnant.
As a guy, I was paying more because I might get pregnant.
Nice.
Are your parents at least excited to maybe be grandparents?[ROFL1]
I've seriously thought about dumping my work owned health care and just not having any and pocketing the cash for emergency services... then I realized that would be idiotic with my health problems.. guess I'll HAVE to bend over.. not happy. Mine is also raising above 15%.
Mine went up over 20% for 2012 and another 13% for 2013.
Eggysrun
11-05-2012, 16:26
Tricare is rumored to go up 345%
So much for the affordable care act.
Our cost went up 11.2% or the other way to look at it I'm taking a 11.2% pay reduction...
Hell dude 12% - 18% was normal before ocare. Now wait and see what it does... We are getting a sh!tty high deductible/health savings plan next year where you have to shell out $3000 before they start kicking in.
Same BS at my place. They are trying to sell it as a "good deal".
I just went through mine getting SHITTY in May.. premiums went up to stupid amounts. Deductible went high.. oh why's that.. because I work with more women, and a bunch of old people... FUCK YOU O-care!
I just went through mine getting SHITTY in May.. premiums went up to stupid amounts. Deductible went high.. oh why's that.. because I work with more women, and a bunch of old people... FUCK YOU O-care!
Funny I thought you were an old guy judging by your avatar! [ROFL3]
speedysst
11-05-2012, 18:38
From reading these posts I simply cannot comprehend how this was termed the "Affordable healthcare act." I dont have insurance and even if I did, all I could afford is the extremely high deductible insurance which would leave me bankrupt anyway. Im so glad I get forced to pay $695/year (its not a tax, oh wait, yeah it is) so some welfare asshole can have their free treatment!
centrarchidae
11-05-2012, 19:15
I have my own coverage, not from work.
In 2008, my mom told me that if I voted for McCain-Palin, my health insurance premiums would double or worse.
So I voted for my girl Sarah, and my premiums went from $125/month to $310/month for the same coverage.
Mom is pretty smart for a Democrat.
interested to see what our premiums will go up to next year. I'll find out this month.
theGinsue
11-05-2012, 19:33
From reading these posts I simply cannot comprehend how this was termed the "Affordable healthcare act." I dont have insurance and even if I did, all I could afford is the extremely high deductible insurance which would leave me bankrupt anyway. Im so glad I get forced to pay $695/year (its not a tax, oh wait, yeah it is) so some welfare asshole can have their free treatment!
The second half of your last sentence answers the question in your first sentence. It's now affordable (free) to those who receive taxpayer freebies. The rest of us get bent over. I might feel a little better about that if they were giving me a prostate check or colonoscopy while screwing me, but I can't even get that.
ringhilt
11-05-2012, 20:18
You think your rates going up is bad. Read this from Market-Ticker.org.
Imagine if your hours were cut by 25% so your company didn't have to offer you healthcare at all.
I hope this isn't real. People are hurting already and don't need a reduction in pay as well as overpriced healthcare.
http://www.market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=213527
Quote copied from article.
"Several restaurants, hotels and retailers have started or are preparing to limit schedules of hourly workers to below 30 hours a week. That is the threshold at which large employers in 2014 would have to offer workers a minimum level of insurance or pay a penalty starting at $2,000 for each worker.
The shift is one of the first significant steps by employers to avoid requirements under the health-care law, and whether the trend continues hinges on Tuesday's election results. Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney has pledged to overturn the Affordable Care Act, although he would face obstacles doing so."
jerrymrc
11-05-2012, 20:21
I know everyone like to bash us .gov workers but a couple of things on this. Our pay has been frozen since 2010. Of course we all know that nothing has gone up.......
I was used to seeing a $10-$20 per month increase per year until Obamacare was rolled out. One of the so called benefits is part of our health care premium is paid for. We can't afford to use it that much but we suffer right along with the rest of ya. My monthly part since 2009.
2009= $201
2010= $241
2011= $310
2012= $372
2013= $428
Many of the lower paid workers (and yes there are many making $10-13 per hour) have had to drop their coverage because they are still making the $11 per hour they were in 2010.
From reading these posts I simply cannot comprehend how this was termed the "Affordable healthcare act." I dont have insurance and even if I did, all I could afford is the extremely high deductible insurance which would leave me bankrupt anyway. Im so glad I get forced to pay $695/year (its not a tax, oh wait, yeah it is) so some welfare asshole can have their free treatment!
Probably because pretty much everyone on here works for a living. The people who this benefits I will go out on a limb here and say they aren't into collecting firearms or recreational shooting or hunting...more like "what else can you give me so I can stay home" type people...
I really hope Romney can turn this thing around and get it reversed and the health care companies/insurance providers to reel this in to realistic levels.
spqrzilla
11-05-2012, 20:26
PPACA was a disaster that was obvious to anyone who looked at the details. Which didn't include Obama because he actually spent time "campaigning" for its passage contradicting what was actually in the legislation.
You think your rates going up is bad. Read this from Market-Ticker.org.
Imagine if your hours were cut by 25% so your company didn't have to offer you healthcare at all.
I hope this isn't real. People are hurting already and don't need a reduction in pay as well as overpriced healthcare.
http://www.market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=213527
Quote copied from article.
"Several restaurants, hotels and retailers have started or are preparing to limit schedules of hourly workers to below 30 hours a week. That is the threshold at which large employers in 2014 would have to offer workers a minimum level of insurance or pay a penalty starting at $2,000 for each worker.
The shift is one of the first significant steps by employers to avoid requirements under the health-care law, and whether the trend continues hinges on Tuesday's election results. Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney has pledged to overturn the Affordable Care Act, although he would face obstacles doing so."
this is true. My buddy worked security and they cut his hours so they didn't have to provide health insurance. albiet it was already crap at best and he was only scheduled to 32 hours a week anyways. they were NEVER allowed to get overtime. 40 hours a week max.
He left and is now much happier as an electrician.
Inconel710
11-05-2012, 20:32
You think your rates going up is bad. Read this from Market-Ticker.org.
Imagine if your hours were cut by 25% so your company didn't have to offer you healthcare at all.
I hope this isn't real. People are hurting already and don't need a reduction in pay as well as overpriced healthcare.
http://www.market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=213527
Quote copied from article.
"Several restaurants, hotels and retailers have started or are preparing to limit schedules of hourly workers to below 30 hours a week. That is the threshold at which large employers in 2014 would have to offer workers a minimum level of insurance or pay a penalty starting at $2,000 for each worker.
The shift is one of the first significant steps by employers to avoid requirements under the health-care law, and whether the trend continues hinges on Tuesday's election results. Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney has pledged to overturn the Affordable Care Act, although he would face obstacles doing so."
Wall Street Journal said the same thing. (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203335504578086702676417058.html?)
The sheeple are about to find out how "affordable" their health care can be.
Whistler
11-05-2012, 20:56
They rolled out a "new" plan where I work last month, my premiums would increase to $1050/mo for wife and myself. That's for an 80/20 w/ $2500 ded. I refuse to pay over $12K/yr for health insurance, looking elsewhere.
Half Live
11-05-2012, 21:30
That's nothing. The company I work for is not small by any means, and they are trying to raise our premiums on average 350%. Yes, 350%.
Insurance companies have been screwing people since the dawn of mankind. Obamacare has nothing to do with it.
I have an HDHP through work which actually works out very well. $0 annual premium, $3000 deductable and $5000 out-of-pocket maximum. Everything gets covered at 80/90% once we have spent the $3000, and it includes prescription costs.
Mine went from under $4400 per year before the Big "O" took office to over $11,500 this year. My company rolls the new plan every July. This year we decided to just drop to a lower plan. Had my fill of "O"-Care. Hope it all ends starting tomorrow!
buckshotbarlow
11-05-2012, 23:40
ding ding ding...this is me 2! F%$KERS
I just went through mine getting SHITTY in May.. premiums went up to stupid amounts. Deductible went high.. oh why's that.. because I work with more women, and a bunch of old people... FUCK YOU O-care!
And yet still nothing to address the actual COST of healthcare which is the real problem.
I had contemplated buying my own health insurance, because the VA has that "we chose for you" deal (I'd like to see the doctor I've seen since I was 10, and have a choice when I need to get my shoulder operated on) but now with my mom's healthcare premium going way out of control, and hearing you guys talk about the outrageous increases, I guess I'll just have to hope that the VA chooses wisely for me... [Bang]
The plan I am on went up $23 a month and the step up plan went down $12 so if I stayed on the shit plan I'd actually be paying more. Funny to cause it's an HIA and we get $1000 incentive which can roll over into next year but they always say we may not have this plan next year so WTF?
Obamacare has a lot of issues. The biggest being that he did not address the root causes but instead just fed more red meat to the insurance cartels. Obama should have gone back to the pre Reagan model where all insurance was non profit based. Sorry but no company should make a profit by killing people. When a company's whole business model is based on a system where they make more money by denying people life saving care, then it is immoral. They have a profit motive to deny people life saving care and thus killing them. For the last 30 plus years these same companies have had a virtual monopoly/cartel system that has done just that. Hopefully these exchanges will fix that. But the legislation has a lot of problems. Hopefully people will fix that. But I am not holding my breath because Washington is controlled by those who profit from killing our fellow Americans.
Aloha_Shooter
11-09-2012, 17:40
nynco, you really think Reagan is the anti-Christ, don't you? Just what do you think changed in insurance models during Reagan's administration? Insurance companies have ALWAYS made profits by striking a balance between attracting customers willing to pay premiums and what they had to pay out in claims. ALWAYS. Insurance companies have disputed some claims almost as long. Guess what? So does the federal government.
Obamacare has more than "a lot of issues" -- it's an unworkable, anticapitalist mess designed to fail so Obama or Hillary can come in and institute universal healthcare coverage after claiming facetiously that the private market failed.
Pancho Villa
11-09-2012, 17:42
Healthcare is up because we all pay for people who don't pay.
Before you shout 'illegals!' there's a lot more poor people without healthcare than there are illegals. We already have universal healthcare and wealth redistribution - the hospitals jack up prices because a large % of patients just do not pay their bills.
Bring back for-profit healthcare and let hospitals treat the poor at their discretion and as tax writeoffs / charity rather than by right, like you could/did in the 50s and 60s. You didn't have millions of poor people dying then and you won't today. And you'll see healthcare costs plummit by a ridiculous % overnight.
Edit: regulation is another huge hurdle. My friend is an anesthesiology resident back east, and a shitty flip-phone that would have been state of the art in 1998 costs the hospital $750 because it's "medically certified" and everything they use has to be. The certification is a huge racket and needs to be done away with - hospitals aren't just going to buy shitty drugs and poison us, because they would, uh, go out of business. The same reason restaurants wouldn't just serve rat poison to everyone because "it's cheaper than real soup."
Prior to Reagan it was illegal to have a for profit medical insurance company. They were non profits like Blue Cross Blue Shield. I don't want capitalism to make a profit by killing people. So to me, I don't give a rats ass if it is anti capitalist. No business model should exists that makes it legal to kill fellow Americans for any reason esp to make money.
You do know that Obamacare is to the right of what Nixon proposed back in the 1970s right?
I think one thing that could go a long way to fixing stuff is to make a public option. Then if you want to be at the mercy of the insurance cartels go for it. Those who don't have the freedom to chose another path.
The same reason restaurants wouldn't just serve rat poison to everyone because "it's cheaper than real soup."
Do you know any of the history in the US? Do you know who Uptin Sinclair is or have you heard about a book called the Jungle. We had that over 100 years ago. It failed miserably. Why do you want to repeat the mistakes of the past?
Pancho Villa
11-09-2012, 17:51
The same reason restaurants wouldn't just serve rat poison to everyone because "it's cheaper than real soup."
Do you know any of the history in the US? Do you know who Uptin Sinclair is or have you heard about a book called the Jungle. We had that over 100 years ago. It failed miserably. Why do you want to repeat the mistakes of the past?
Hate to break it to you friend, but Uptain Sinclair was a card-carrying socialist with an axe to grind, and none of that accurately reflected what was going on at the time.
Length of life, quality of living, and population sizes all exploded during the gilded age - an unprecedented event in human history. So, socialists can suck it. If you want to complain about the conditions of the factories, realize that these were huge steps above subsistence farming and got better and better every year.
Who cares if someone was a socialist. Really... that is so small minded. What are the facts? The fact is prior to regulations people got sick and died WAY more from food that was tainted. Heck after Bush cut a massive amount of food inspectors, the nation saw a rash of tainted food outbreaks. Like the one back in the early 2000s that killed 50 people from a Listeria outbreak with tainted turkey. I personally like regulations that won't kill babies from food poisoning.
There is a lot more to it than people initially realize. This legislation actually helps insurance companies as it was always designed to. Why are medical costs so high? Because doctors have to pay ridiculous insurance premiums to cover their practice. When they screw up, millions in law suits are at stake and insurance companies know it and charge accordingly based on that risk. You cant practice without insurance, and now you cant work without insurance. The problem has never been that people do not have adequate care, how could they? A hospital can not legally turn you away or deny care for any reason. This was a scheme to get insurance companies a guarantee on clients, and an inside hedge on medical insurance charged to medical professionals. Now they will know better the risk that a larger cross section of workers pose to their given physician, and will adjust both of the premiums accordingly. This will only lead to skyrocketing medical costs, and more specialized doctors that focus on very particular areas of their profession in order to minimize their exposure to risk. This is what has happened to every country that has instituted socialized medicine, and now that the associated health care costs are so high people can not afford to pay for their medical expenses without it.
For example, I myself I spent $3600 for insurance last year. My total medical expenses were less than $850 (and that was a bad year for me). It makes no sense for me as a young healthy male to pay for insurance beyond catastrophic care plans with super high deductibles. There is currently a plan that is offered at my work that is $12 a month with a $10,000 deductible. For me that would make sense because in less than three normal years of medical costs I will be able to save about $10000 in premiums. But now that Obullshitcare is being instituted, that plan will no longer be offered because it does not meet federal minimums. So my only option is to stick with the plan that I have, and next July my premiums are going to go up roughly 35%. Sweet.
I agree with all you said about insurance. It is a scam an scam that has a profit motive to make the system just like that. One where the insurance cartels bought our gov and wrote the rules just that way.
What I don't agree with is this.
"This is what has happened to every country that has instituted socialized medicine, and now that the associated health care costs are so high people can not afford to pay for their medical expenses without it."
That simply is just not factually true. Because even before there was insurance or socialized medicine people could not afford to pay for care either. It is pure insanity to think that people can afford to pay for medical care when they are sick. What do you want a guy with cancer to do... work harder to pay for it? He is dying and bed ridden.
Aloha_Shooter
11-09-2012, 19:04
The fact Sinclair was an avowed Socialist goes to his motive for exaggerating conditions he portrayed in The Jungle. You're spouting so much garbage I need some hipwaders here. I'm happy to help those in need as are most conservatives I know but your right to XXXXXX stops when you use Uncle Barack to reach into my pocket. Socialism, democratic or not, is founded on a philosophy of theft.
DavieD55
11-09-2012, 19:05
It's not about Healthcare folks.
So far Aloha, the only thing you have done is spout garbage in return. Its a fact that before the FDA people died way more from food born illness and tainted drugs than they do today. No matter how much you stomp your feet about someone being a socialist, that does not change the facts. It is also a fact that when Bush cut the amount of inspectors inspecting the food supply that the amount of tainted food went up. I don't live in a world of pie in the sky theories ala Ayne Rand, I deal in facts.
The worst part about those forms of poisoning is they always kill children and the old first because they are the weakest. If someone is doing something right or onto the right thing and uses facts, I don't care if they are if they are socialist or libertarian or purple.
dwalker460
11-09-2012, 19:31
I have had insurance through corporate policies for the last 10 years or so, first through the companies I worked with, and now through my wifes corporate policy, but prior to that I pretty much self-insured. While I was lucky enough not to need massive healthcare, the $10K or so a year I stuck into savings rather than paying out to insurance meant that when I needed to get medical help- like a throat infection or earcahe or whatever, I just payed it out of pocket and went on my way. Of course that meant no going to the hospital for frivolous crap, but that was fine.
want a look at food without the FDA?
Hello China. How about restaurants reusing the grease from grease traps? Poison baby milk? Do you trust food with "made in china" on it? That crap isn't communists/socialists. It is capitalists out out make every last cent they can, fuck everyone else.
There are times that enforced regulation is needed. Just have to be very careful it doesn't grow past the initial reason for existence.
As for health care, I don't know the solution. I have ideas but am torn on them. A part of me is saying govt run is the way to go. One thing for sure, Ocare isn't going to solve the cost problem.
dwalker460
11-09-2012, 19:52
I get that a lot of you guys dont pay any actual attention to the world, but China is privatizing healthcare more and more. They started with dentistry, and soon "urgent care" and first responder/ambulance services will be privatized. They are doing this because governmental control of healthcare was not working out, and private industry will do the job better. It helps that thier legal system does not much allow for frivolous and punitive lawsuits.
No they are doing it because the communist party is selling those ways of making profit to their cronies. Don't look to China for any sort of example of good or as a model for capitalism for much. They are corrupt beyond belief.
dwalker460
11-09-2012, 20:10
SO you know people in the healthcare industry in China?
Have you utilized Chinas healthcare system?
Another interesting tidbit for you-
In China, the number one criticism of the government by the citizenry is corruption, and the leaders have taken it to heart and there is a huge effort at reform. Currently, OUR GOVERNMENT is at least as, and possibly more, corrupt than China.
No but that is what is happening with many other things. That is what happened in Russia when the sold off all the public industry. It created oligarchy over night.
dwalker460
11-09-2012, 20:18
China is not Russia, and never will be. Two ENTIRELY different value sytems and outlooks. The Chinese plan so far ahead they have built entire cities that no one lives in because they anticipate the movement of farmers into urban areas over the next 50 to 100 years.Compare that to Obama, who cannot see past next week.
The biggest mistake we, as Americans make, is imposing our values and outlooks onto people who we have no knowledge of. Better to just STFU and not say anything.
Ok I just thought of something and for some of you, this is going to make your head explode...
So conservatives are all for states rights? Correct?
So lets objectively look at what Obamacare did. Obamacare just forced the states to create state level healthcare exchanges. This was not a federal take over one bit. It was a mandate for states to address an issue that they had been derelict in their duties to enforce. Now you can argue that you don't want it at all. But it is not a federal take over akin to socialism.
I myself don't like it because I don't think mandates are a good thing. I question the constitutionality of such things. I myself would have made the age for medicare zero. Then if you want to buy any health insurance after that base level, then you could go to a regulated market exchange of nonprofit insurance solutions.
So in the end Obama just did a traditional Republican thing... like the Cato Institute talked about in the 90s. Which Obamacare is nothing more than Nixoncare relabeled and to the right of Nixons proposal.
spqrzilla
11-09-2012, 21:36
Trying to claim that Obamacare is a Republican idea does not change that Obamacare has been a failure and will only get worse. Its a deficit nightmare, its actually failed to slow the rate of health care insurance premium increases and may be accelerating them. And its failed to achieve even a fraction of the expanded coverage of individuals promised.
Utter failure.
That's why at least a plurality of the country wants it repealed.
spqrzilla
11-09-2012, 21:42
Heck after Bush cut a massive amount of food inspectors, the nation saw a rash of tainted food outbreaks. Like the one back in the early 2000s that killed 50 people from a Listeria outbreak with tainted turkey. I personally like regulations that won't kill babies from food poisoning.
Nonsense really, listeria outbreaks in turkey began in the Clinton administration with the Cargill plant in May 2000.
And cuts to foreign food inspection? Obama administration:
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/11/02/1130961/inspections-of-foreign-meat-declines-after-budget-cuts-to-food-safety-programs/?mobile=nc
Cuts in inspectors have been happening by both Dem and R. Mainly because our gov is owned by big business. But Bush did cut the inspectors. I also think that we should be inspecting foreign food even more than our own.
Also how is Obamacare a failure. It has not even come into play and you are acting like it is 10 years past. We shall see.
As to the plurality, if someone polled me, I would say I want it repealed too. But I would replace it with a simple 1 paragraph bill
The age for medicare is now zero. All insurance related to healthcare is to be non profit based.
Done
I'm gonna put my lw flame suit on here...(no ocare vote here, yes- VERY directly effected, and perhaps a slight derail- but should fan similar flames?)...but something eerily missing from what I see above, is a couple basal questions:
As a society, why do we fight so doggedly trying to decide which way is better for OTHERS to tend to the unsightly problem of the less fortunate/sick, versus relying on the individuals' then deeper pockets and human compassion to effectively operate? There is such a blurred (lobbied) line between a poor/sick persons' "right" to health care/life, and an ethical responsibility to fund a perceived medical salvation for a very financial/political reason. Social engineering is easy. No one wants to touch the leper, and everyone wants the free checkup and a happy promise.
Why the complacency with health care being DIRECTLY tied to our employment? Isn't being excited about a "good health care plan" putting the shackles on ourselves? I would guarantee we could see a semblance of free market pricing mysteriously re-appear in health care if that single tie was broken. And I would not so humbly suggest the only losers in that game would be the gov't, and the poorly led insurers. I would wager strongly that the astute insurers would package a product range and be back in business for that environment immediately.
and to the OP and others of us taking it in the wallet-[Beer]
Why do we do that... because relying on charity does not work. Historically proven to not be enough. I don't care about theories here in the real world, there would be no need for this or people crying our for if charity did work. But it does not so for the last 50 plus years that charity could have stepped up to fix it, people fought to have their gov that is supposed to reflect the will of the people to step in and fill the gap.
I also agree that healthcare should not be tied to a job at all. It creates a slave system that is anti free market. But big business like that part. Nothing better than a worker who is trapped. The can and do exploit those people a lot.
Aloha_Shooter
11-10-2012, 07:47
This folderol spouted by nynco has been good for me. I suddenly realized that even die-hard Marxists can be fans of shooting. :D
nynco,
Your sentiment that "relying on charity does not work" as a comparison could be valid if today, we were not paying for BOTH methodologies-but I would still offer otherwise-a long healthy, wealthy life is utopial- not guaranteed. How did that work out for Steve Jobs?
BTW, and contrary to media portrayal- charitable work and donations on a year to year basis have never stopped increasing! Also, our local "real world" has birthed a much different level of those with a hand outward than it should. My King Soopers grocery line is irrefutable proof- the young couple(s) with mom and dad wearing $140+ jeans, $200+ sunglasses etc. and getting into a really nicely modded Tahoe with their cute kids after just spending their food assistance quite discreetly ahead of me speaks volumes. There was not a need. Someone else went hungry again as those dollars were misappropriated. I think the same thing every time I see some Environmentalist spouting about E85 and saving the earth while not giving a damn about higher corn costs literally killing those that can't afford a single ear a day elsewhere.
spqrzilla
11-10-2012, 11:14
Also how is Obamacare a failure. It has not even come into play and you are acting like it is 10 years past. We shall see.
Your claim that it has not even come into play shows that you are utterly uninformed of the many provisions of Obamacare and how they've played out since adoption.
The requirement of child-only plans to accept all applicants has resulted in the complete disappearance of child-only health insurance policies in seventeen states.
The IRS reports that only seven percent of the estimated 4 million small businesses have claimed the credit for offering health insurance to their employees - expanded coverage failure.
The high risk pools have only seen 13 percent of the estimated enrollees - another expanded coverage failure.
The government run long term care program established by the CLASS Act has already been halted because it could not prove actuarially sound.
And health insurance premiums have been rising since its adoption at a higher rate than before.
Employers are showing an increased tendency to expand the use of part time employees whose hours put them below the requirement to provide health insurance or pay penalty.
Government expenditures have been above the projections that the Obama administration used to try to sell the program to the public, so its been a worse effect on the deficit than promised.
Obamacare is a failure.
Sharpienads
11-10-2012, 11:30
Your claim that it has not even come into play shows that you are utterly uninformed of the many provisions of Obamacare and how they've played out since adoption.
The requirement of child-only plans to accept all applicants has resulted in the complete disappearance of child-only health insurance policies in seventeen states.
The IRS reports that only seven percent of the estimated 4 million small businesses have claimed the credit for offering health insurance to their employees - expanded coverage failure.
The high risk pools have only seen 13 percent of the estimated enrollees - another expanded coverage failure.
The government run long term care program established by the CLASS Act has already been halted because it could not prove actuarially sound.
And health insurance premiums have been rising since its adoption at a higher rate than before.
Employers are showing an increased tendency to expand the use of part time employees whose hours put them below the requirement to provide health insurance or pay penalty.
Government expenditures have been above the projections that the Obama administration used to try to sell the program to the public, so its been a worse effect on the deficit than promised.
Obamacare is a failure.
Uh, you, Sir, are obviously racist.
dwalker460
11-10-2012, 11:39
Wow, ny-whatever- you have a very warped perception...where to begin....
First- why do you think that it is OK for the .gov to COMPELL the citizenry to provide for the welfare of the needy rather than rely on the compassion of the citizens themselves? That is completely whacked out my man. If the citizenry doesnt want to help, then that is their RIGHT, if they do want to help others they will. Period. Compelling a society to provide for those who do not provide for themselves is the worst sort of enabling and breeds EXACTLY what we are seeing now- a failure of society as a whole to be responsible.
The problem with welfare and socialist programs IS the government and bureaucratic mess that goes along with it. Have you paid attention to the real numbers coming out? $60K PER PERSON spent in the welfare system!!! Thats insane! $120K PER PERSON to keep the average prisoner confined, and this includes illegals which should be deported yet our system allows them to remain in our jails almost indefinitely at taxpayer expense!
Meanwhile, actual citizens that NEED help jump through hoops to get it.
Some charities, especially those as part of .gov sanctioned agencies such as United Way, are horrible, with reports of less that 3cents of each dollar contributed actually going to the intended recipients while the corporate officers of the "non-profit" organization take home million dollar salaries. However, others, such as the Shriners, Masons, most Churches, give every single dollar they get to the needy.
The best possible thing for this country is to completely dismantle all Federal socialist programs, including welfare, unemployment, social security, all forms of healthcare, funds for public schooling, etc. If a state or county wants to have a welfare program and can make it work, awesome, but I am sick of my tax dollars going to support some single mom in an inner city, or worse, some storm "victim" in Haiti or some other third-world nation, when it can be better used to encourage commerce, a strong military, etc.. All laws requiring insurance- be it workplace, life, etc. need to be removed. Insurance should have all governmental assistance removed, and should live or die on thier own merits.
There is NO good that can come of any Nationalized healthcare program, and the more intrusion that exists the worse we are going to suffer.
taxes are part of life buddy you want to live in a land without taxes... point to one that functionally works. Till then you need to see a counselor about that tick.
"There is NO good that can come of any Nationalized healthcare program, and the more intrusion that exists the worse we are going to suffer."
I suggest you check the facts there. Because the facts show that no other 1st world nation in the world has our fucked up system. They are ALL more socialist than we are. In addition many of those socialist hellholes have better REAL WORLD results than we do.
Once again... stop living in a factless theory world
dwalker460
11-10-2012, 12:18
taxes are part of life buddy you want to live in a land without taxes... point to one that functionally works. Till then you need to see a counselor about that tick.
Taxes are fine, its how they are used that is the issue.
"There is NO good that can come of any Nationalized healthcare program, and the more intrusion that exists the worse we are going to suffer."
I suggest you check the facts there. Because the facts show that no other 1st world nation in the world has our fucked up system. They are ALL more socialist than we are. In addition many of those socialist hellholes have better REAL WORLD results than we do.
Once again... stop living in a factless theory world
Bullshit. Every single "socialist" healthcare system in the world sucks ass, and they are all going more and more privatized as they figure that out. Sorry but you lose that argument. You need to wake up and take an economics class or two.
spqrzilla
11-10-2012, 12:20
Uh, you, Sir, are obviously racist.Evidently.
spqrzilla
11-10-2012, 12:24
I suggest you check the facts there. Because the facts show that no other 1st world nation in the world has our fucked up system. They are ALL more socialist than we are. In addition many of those socialist hellholes have better REAL WORLD results than we do.
The claim that socialized medicine has better "results" than the US health care system has been debunked repeatedly. But it keeps being repeated among the left-wing political sites you evidently frequent. True measures of health care delivery like survival rates of persons diagnosed with diseases show that your claim is false. Compare cancer survival rates between places like Britain's NHS and the US for an example. Large disparity between them and the US is far better. Usually such comparisons use life expectancy comparisons that don't really compare health care delivery but instead are dominated by fatal accident rates, crime rates and differences in lifestyles unrelated to health care delivery.
Here is an example of what I mean: a comparison of Canada and US health care delivery (http://www.nber.org/bah/fall07/w13429.html).
You really are showing a very shallow understanding of the topics you yourself bring up.
Bullshit. Every single "socialist" healthcare system in the world sucks ass, and they are all going more and more privatized as they figure that out. Sorry but you lose that argument. You need to wake up and take an economics class or two.
Could you please point to factual proof to your emotional rant. Because I know for a fact that when Canadians were polled a few years back about trading their healthcare system for ours - 90% said NO. I also know for a fact that our measurable outcomes like infant mortality are way behind many of those socialist nations you fear.
spqrzilla
11-10-2012, 12:27
Bullshit. Every single "socialist" healthcare system in the world sucks ass, and they are all going more and more privatized as they figure that out. Sorry but you lose that argument. You need to wake up and take an economics class or two.
Could you please point to factual proof to your emotional rant. Because I know for a fact that when Canadians were polled a few years back about trading their healthcare system for ours - 90% said NO. I also know for a fact that our measurable outcomes like infant mortality are way behind many of those socialist nations you fear.
Rebuted above. Infant mortality is not well correlated to the quality of health care delivery.
heres some facts right here....
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/06/06/business/metrics-health-care-outlier.html
spqrzilla
11-10-2012, 12:33
heres some facts right here....
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/06/06/business/metrics-health-care-outlier.htmlLife expectancy is not a valid comparison of health care delivery. Its dominated by life style choices, accident rates and other things utterly unrelated to health care delivery.
Forbes piece that illustrates that your "facts" aren't (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottatlas/2012/09/16/the-liberal-medias-erroneous-indictment-of-u-s-health-care-there-they-go-again/).
spqrzilla
11-10-2012, 12:38
What would also enlighten you , nynco, is to read this paper from the British Medical Journal comparing the NHS to California's Kaiser Permanente (http://www.bmj.com/content/324/7330/135).
They conclude that Kaiser provided better care than the NHS for roughly equivalent costs.
dwalker460
11-10-2012, 12:41
Bullshit. Every single "socialist" healthcare system in the world sucks ass, and they are all going more and more privatized as they figure that out. Sorry but you lose that argument. You need to wake up and take an economics class or two.
Could you please point to factual proof to your emotional rant. Because I know for a fact that when Canadians were polled a few years back about trading their healthcare system for ours - 90% said NO. I also know for a fact that our measurable outcomes like infant mortality are way behind many of those socialist nations you fear.
China is privatizing health care
Russia has privatized health care
France is moving steadily towards privatizing all but basic healthcare
Canada is also moving advanced healthcare to the private sector, while basic healthcare is provided. MOST Canadians are not happy with thier healthcare system, and thats a fact Jack. I visit Canadia a couple times a year, and there is a lot of unhappiness with thier socialist programs
The UK healthcare system is a joke, using it as an example shows how truly ignorant you are.
The German system is slowly being revamped, and may work better in the future, but in this case you have to look at how the system is administered and the mindset of its people, They are German, not American.
Seriously, you need to start reading facts and not rhetoric.
I have lived in Germany been to most all of Europe grew up on the border of Canada and go back all the time. ALL countries are always unhappy with things and trying to fix them. But when asked if they wanted a system like ours 90% said NO...
dwalker460
11-10-2012, 12:54
I have lived in Germany been to most all of Europe grew up on the border of Canada and go back all the time. ALL countries are always unhappy with things and trying to fix them. But when asked if they wanted a system like ours 90% said NO...
I find that hard to believe since so many come here for advanced medical care...
spqrzilla
11-10-2012, 13:13
I find that hard to believe since so many come here for advanced medical care...Mostly the wealthy. Which is why the NBER link I cited above noted that Canada has a greater disparity of health care among the classes than the US does.
No one in Canada goes bankrupt or loses everything they own to a healthcare related issue. We on the other hand... well that happens all the time.
spqrzilla
11-10-2012, 13:44
No one in Canada goes bankrupt or looses everything they own to a healthcare related issue. We on the other hand... well that happens all the time.
An exaggeration based on rather fraudulent academic work by the liar who got elected senator in Massachusetts. The number of bankruptcies in the US caused by health care costs is not that large.
Pancho Villa
11-10-2012, 13:46
An exaggeration based on rather fraudulent academic work by the liar who got elected senator in Massachusetts. The number of bankruptcies in the US caused by health care costs is not that large.
JUST ONE BANKRUPTCY...IS TOO MANY!!!1111one
again, more basal points being neglected on this highly emotional issue: bankruptcy vs quality of life? who would NOT choose the relative luxury of writing off debts? How was bankruptcy so bad for the folks who had to show up in court as the defendant for GM, Lehman Bros, WashMutual, Mike Tyson, Willie Nelson, Gary Coleman....et al. Seems to be the recovery period was substantially less than 7yrs of bad credit? I am glad as a tax payer I get to help those unfortunate companies that didn't follow the rules.
Oh, and the MORE basic point, if health care WAS a FREE MARKET vs somewhat state controlled, the costs would not be anywhere near the same burden.
How much were Bluray players 2 yrs ago? how much are they now....that free market exercise goes from roughly $1000 to $40. Simple free market supply/demand.
How much do MRI scans cost today vs their early days in the late '70's? Why do certain cancer or similar disease drugs cost upwards of SIX figures? Oh wait, this is where Canada does have us beat, the government there will ignore a patent to ensure a reasonable retail cost schema- cancer treatments there can be logarithmically less than here...hmm, the wait times may be more, but I digress.
furthermore, this taken from the OECD summary:
"The U.S. spent 16 percent of its GDP on health care. This proportion was nearly double the OECD median (8.7%) and over 40 percent more than the country spending the second-largest share of GDP (France 11.2%)."
That should be telling in regards to the exact validity of the comparison- when in all of history, does the quantity of money spent by a government equal value returned? (reference QE1/QE2 etc. etc. ad nauseum)
Pancho Villa
11-10-2012, 15:08
Healthcare is different because of reasons. Trust them!
MRI scanners evolve so fast that it makes your point moot. I would never want to be scanned in an older CT or MRI. They are more likely to miss stuff and give you WAY more radiation (CT) than they would with a modern machine.
As for the patents, that system is so corrupt its not even funny. The drug industry is one of the most profitable industries in America. So I hardly worry about them losing out over saving peoples lives. booo hooo for them. Many of the reasons we spend so much is due to our corrupt patent renewal system.
The other figures about money spent in relation to GDP is spot on.
spqrzilla
11-10-2012, 15:32
I agree Pancho
ROFL
Somebody's sarcasm detector is broken.
spqrzilla
11-10-2012, 15:33
MRI scanners evolve so fast that it makes your point moot. I would never want to be scanned in an older CT or MRI. They are more likely to miss stuff and give you WAY more radiation (CT) than they would with a modern machine.
As for the patents, that system is so corrupt its not even funny. The drug industry is one of the most profitable industries in America. So I hardly worry about them losing out over saving peoples lives. booo hooo for them. Many of the reasons we spend so much is due to our corrupt patent renewal system.
The other figures about money spent in relation to GDP is spot on.
nynco - you are continuing to just make stuff up.
No its just over your head. Do you know what slices mean in CT. Do you know what a spin echo is in MRI? Or what the term "dose" even means?
Sharpienads
11-10-2012, 16:02
I hear the oil industry is very profitable as well. We need more government regulation. I know what slices means when talking about pizza.
A modern 64 slice CT can catch things that would NEVER be seen with a single slice CT machine from the 1980s. That same modern machine can do 3d rendering. Which the older stuff can barely produce and image capable of seeing what is going on. At the time, those things were state of the art. But tech has moved on. Would you trust your life on the machine that could miss something?
The oil industry is profitable and massively corrupt. Its a shining example of how industry buys our gov and gets the regulations they want. Heck they own a whole party lock stock and barrel. They have those same corrupt leaders selling the gullible public that we need a pipeline to take Canadian oil through America so they can sell it to the world. When right now, we refine all that oil for ourselves. Talk about corrupt. Fuck the world keep that oil for the US.
buckshotbarlow
11-11-2012, 15:33
So i was reading some blurps on this piece of shit, and found out that the ACA discriminates against special needs. MotherF***ers that's my brother. I'm really pissed now, and theres more to that POS that pisses me off everyday. I'll get pages and post to the thread when more time presents itself.
buckshotbarlow
11-11-2012, 15:37
With out Ocare, my family is fine...With hit, all underlined provisions SCREW US!!!
I started to underline all the shit that is gonna screw me and my fam over, but i'm just to pissed off. The more I read, the more I would like to have the our elected officals follow by the same rules...which they so conveniently left themselves out of!
50 Threats from ObamaCare
1) Pg 22 mandates that the Government will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure. So every employer in the United States will be subjected to a health insurance audit just as all taxpayers are subject to audit. Of course, we will have to pay for an entire new bureaucracy to do this–the Internal Health Revenue Service?
2) Pg 30, Sec 123 states that there will be a government committee that decides what treatments you are allowed and what your overall benefits are.
3) Pg 29, lines 4-16 basically mandates the rationing of health care as is being done in Canada.
4) Pg 42 recognizes the power of the Health Choices Commissioner to determine your health benefits. You will have no choice.
5) PG 50, section 152 states that free, taxpayer-paid health care will be given to the 30 million non-citizens in the USA, even illegal aliens.
6) Pg 58 states that government will have possession of all your health care records & history including finances and you will have to have a National ID Healthcard.
7) Pg 59, lines 21-24 gives direct access to your banks accounts to compel you to pay any out-of-pocket or premium costs electronically without your previous consent.
8) PG 65, sec 164 provides for a political payoff from the Democrats and Obama; a special subsidized plan for retirees and their families in unions community groups like ACORN.
9) Pg 72, lines 8-14 creates a Health Care Exchange to bring private health insurance plans under government control. This part of the bill reveals Obama’s lies about being able to keep your plan if you like it. Any health insurance plan which does not completely rework itself to conform to these regulations will be dropped from the exchange and those insured will have to pick one of the plans in the exchange. This is why the Congressional Budget Office determined that over 20 million will lose the coverage they are now enjoying if Obamacare is implemented.
10) PG 85, line 7 provides specifics for benefit levels for all health plans, giving government the right to ration everyone’s healthcare.
11) PG 91, lines 4-7 mandates that doctor’s offices, clinics and hospitals provide language-appropriate services, basically ordering them to hire translators at the expense of the American taxpayer.
12) Pg 95, lines 8-18 allows the government to hire non-profit community groups like ACORN and Americorps to sign up people for the government health plan.
13) PG 85, line 7 provides for specifics on benefit levels for Medicare recipients, basically rationing the care of every senior citizen I the United States.
14) PG 102, lines 12-18 mandates that all Medicaid eligible will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid based upon income and insurance status. No choice.
15) Pg 124, lines 24-25 states that no private company or individual can have the right to sue the federal government for medical price fixing, basically eliminating your right to seek redress in the courts regarding your medical care.
16) Pg 127, lines 1-16 dictates doctors’ payment and therefore income which will reduce what doctors earn and lead to greater shortages of doctors and more rationing of care.
17) Pg 145, line 15-17 any employer not currently insuring their employees must enroll employees into public plan option, with no choice of private insurance allowed.
18) Pg 126, lines 22-25 mandates that employers must pay for health insurance even for part-time workers and their families, which will certainly lead to massive layoffs.
19) Pg 149, lines 16-24 all employers with an annual payroll bigger than $400k who does not pay to enroll employees in public insurance option will pay an 8% tax on all payroll.
20) Pg 150, lines 9-13 mandates that employers with an annual payroll between $251K & $400K who does not pay to enroll employees in public insurance option will pay a 2-6% tax on all payroll.
21) Pg 167, lines 18-23 any individual who is self-employed and does not have health insurance will be taxed 2.5% of income and forced to accept public health insurance. So paying for health care out of pocket will be banned from the face of the earth.
22) Pg 170, lines 1-3 exempts non-resident aliens from the individual health care taxes, so Americans citizens will pay for these aliens, legal and illegal alike.
23) Pg 195 officers & employees of the new Health Care Administration will have access to all Americans personal financial records and accounts.
24) PG 203, line 14-15 actually says that “The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax.” Yes, it says that.
25) Pg 239, line 14-24 mandates that available physician services will be reduced for Medicaid recipients. Many poor people including many seniors will be affected.
26) Pg 241, line 6-8 mandates that all doctors receive the same pay, regardless of specialty. This will vastly reduce the number of specialists available in the United States, a common problem where medicine is socialized like Canada.
27) PG 253, line 10-18 allows the federal government to set the value of doctor’s time, professional judgment.
28) PG 265, Sec 1131 mandates and controls the productivity of all health care providers including surgeons!
29) PG 268, Sec 1141 regulates the rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs.
30) PG 272, Sec. 1145 regulates the operation of certain types of cancer hospitals, again rationing the care of cancer patients.
31) Page 280, Sec 1151 allows the government to penalize hospitals for what is deemed to be preventable readmissions. So instead of being sued for malpractice, the government will be the punitive body when mistakes are made.
32) Pg 298, lines 9-11 mandates that if a doctor treats a patient during initial admission and that result in a re-admission, the doctor will be subject to federal penalties. Gee do you think that’s going to drive up the cost of malpractice?
33) Pg 317, lines 13-20 will create prohibitions on ownership and investment in the health service industry for doctors.
34) Pg 317-318, lines 21-25, and 1-3 will prohibit the expansion of all hospitals.
35) pg 321, lines 2-13 allows hospitals apply for an exception to the expansion rule but they must seek community input first!
36) Pg335, lines 16-25, Pg 336-339 mandates the establishment of outcome based health care and insidious idea that actually limits the treatment choices made by patients with their doctors, based upon the patient’s health and condition. This will result in the oldest, weakest and sickest patients being denied treatments simply because the statistics for success in their demographic category are poor! This is a form of health care rationing that will save money at the expense of seniors to help buy insurance for the uninsured, most of whom are young and healthy!
37) Pg 341, lines 3-9 allows the government to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans and HMO forcing people into the government run public plan.
38) Pg 354, Sec 1177 will arbitrarily restrict the enrollment of special needs children and adults.
39) Pg 379, Sec 1191 mandates the creation of even more bureaucracy in the Telehealth Advisory Committee.
40) PG 425, lines 4-12 mandates “Advance Care Planning Consultation,” another insidious vehicle to save money by encouraging seniors who are in poor health to be more accepting of death rather than fighting to stay alive and healthy and with their loved ones.
41) Pg 425, lines 17-19 mandates that all senior patients will be consulted regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney.
42) PG 425, lines 22-25, 426 lines 1-3 provides an approved list of end of life resources, to help guide seniors about the process of dying!
43) PG 427, lines 15 mandates program for orders on the end of life, actually giving the government a say in how your life ends!
44) Pg 429, lines 1-9 dictates the frequency with which an Advance Care Planning Consultant will have to meet with patients as their health deteriorates.
45) PG 429, lines 10-12 give an Advance Care Planning Consultant the power to order end of life plans for a patient.
46) Pg 429, lines 13-25 will only allow certain doctors, not necessarily your own physician, to write an end of life order.
47) PG 430, lines 11-15 allows the government to decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life.
48) Pg 469 mandates “Community Based Home Medical Services” through non profits like ACORN. Happy yet that we elected a community organizer to the White House?
49) PG 489, Sec 1308 force taxpayers to pay for Marriage & Family therapy under the public insurance plan.
50) Pg 494-498 allows government to define mental illnesses and what services will be allowed to treat, again rationing this care.
Down loadable breakdown by category:
For those concerned with the damage this plan will do to business:
Pg 22 mandates that the Government will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure. So every employer in the United States will be subjected to a health insurance audit just as all taxpayers are subject to audit. Of course, we will have to pay for an entire new bureaucracy to do this–the Internal Health Revenue Service?
Pg 42 recognizes the power of the Health Choices Commissioner to determine your health benefits. You will have no choice.
PG 50, section 152 states that free, taxpayer-paid health care will be given to the 30 million non-citizens in the USA, even illegal aliens.
Pg 30, Sec 123 states that there will be a government committee that decides what treatments you are allowed and what your overall benefits are.
Pg 29, lines 4-16 basically mandates the rationing of health care as is being done in Canada.
Pg 42 recognizes the power of the Health Choices Commissioner to determine your health benefits. You will have no choice.
Pg 58 states that government will have possession of all your health care records & history including finances and you will have to have a National ID Healthcard.
Pg 59, lines 21-24 gives direct access to your banks accounts to compel you to pay any out-of-pocket or premium costs electronically without your previous consent.
Pg 72, lines 8-14 creates a Health Care Exchange to bring private health insurance plans under government control. This part of the bill reveals Obama’s lies about being able to keep your plan if you like it. Any health insurance plan which does not completely rework itself to conform to these regulations will be dropped from the exchange and those insured will have to pick one of the plans in the exchange. This is why the Congressional Budget Office determined that over 20 million will lose the coverage they are now enjoying if Obamacare is implemented.
Pg 145, line 15-17 any employer not currently insuring their employees must enroll employees into public plan option, with no choice of private insurance allowed.
Pg 126, lines 22-25 mandates that employers must pay for health insurance even for part-time workers and their families, which will certainly lead to massive layoffs.
Pg 149, lines 16-24 all employers with an annual payroll bigger than $400k who does not pay to enroll employees in public insurance option will pay an 8% tax on all payroll.
Pg 167, lines 18-23 any individual who is self-employed and does not have health insurance will be taxed 2.5% of income and forced to accept public health insurance. So paying for health care out of pocket will be banned from the face of the earth.
For those concerned with the inherent unfairness in this plan.
PG 65, sec 164 provides for a political payoff from the Democrats and Obama; a special subsidized plan for retirees and their families in unions community groups like ACORN.
PG 102, lines 12-18 mandates that all Medicaid eligible will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid based upon income and insurance status. No choice.
Pg 124, lines 24-25 states that no private company or individual can have the right to sue the federal government for medical price fixing, basically eliminating your right to seek redress in the courts regarding your medical care.
Pg 469 mandates “Community Based Home Medical Services” through non profits like ACORN. Happy yet that we elected a community organizer to the White House?
For those afraid of healthcare rationing:
PG 85, line 7 provides specifics for benefit levels for all health plans, giving government the right to ration everyone’s healthcare.
Pg 239, line 14-24 mandates that available physician services will be reduced for Medicaid recipients. Many poor people including many seniors will be affected.
PG 272, Sec. 1145 regulates the operation of certain types of cancer hospitals, again rationing the care of cancer patients.
For those concerned with the costs of this plan:
PG 91, lines 4-7 mandates that doctor’s offices, clinics and hospitals provide language-appropriate services, basically ordering them to hire translators at the expense of the American taxpayer.
Pg 95, lines 8-18 allows the government to hire non-profit community groups like ACORN and Americorps to sign up people for the government health plan.
Pg 170, lines 1-3 exempts non-resident aliens from the individual health care taxes, so Americans citizens will pay for these aliens, legal and illegal alike.
PG 489, Sec 1308 force taxpayers to pay for Marriage & Family therapy under the public insurance plan.
For those concerned with the damage this plan will do to the medical profession:
Pg 127, lines 1-16 dictates doctors’ payment and therefore income which will reduce what doctors earn and lead to greater shortages of doctors and more rationing of care.
Pg 150, lines 9-13 mandates that employers with an annual payroll between $251K & $400K who does not pay to enroll employees in public insurance option will pay a 2-6% tax on all payroll.
Pg 241, line 6-8 mandates that all doctors receive the same pay, regardless of specialty. This will vastly reduce the number of specialists available in the United States, a common problem where medicine is socialized like Canada.
PG 253, line 10-18 allows the federal government to set the value of doctor’s time, professional judgment.
PG 265, Sec 1131 mandates and controls the productivity of all health care providers including surgeons!
Page 280, Sec 1151 allows the government to penalize hospitals for what is deemed to be preventable readmissions. So instead of being sued for malpractice, the government will be the punitive body when mistakes are made.
Pg 298, lines 9-11 mandates that if a doctor treats a patient during initial admission and that result in a re-admission, the doctor will be subject to federal penalties. Gee do you think that’s going to drive up the cost of malpractice?
Pg 317, lines 13-20 will create prohibitions on ownership and investment in the health service industry for doctors.
Pg 317-318, lines 21-25, and 1-3 will prohibit the expansion of all hospitals.
pg 321, lines 2-13 allows hospitals apply for an exception to the expansion rule but they must seek community input first!
Pg335, lines 16-25, Pg 336-339 mandates the establishment of outcome based health care and insidious idea that actually limits the treatment choices made by patients with their doctors, based upon the patient’s health and condition. This will result in the oldest, weakest and sickest patients being denied treatments simply because the statistics for success in their demographic category are poor! This is a form of health care rationing that will save money at the expense of seniors to help buy insurance for the uninsured, most of whom are young and healthy!
Pg 341, lines 3-9 allows the government to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans and HMO forcing people into the government run public plan.
For those concerned with violations of individual rights violations in this plan:
Pg 195 officers & employees of the new Health Care Administration will have access to all Americans personal financial records and accounts.
PG 203, line 14-15 actually says that “The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax.” Yes, it says that.
PG 268, Sec 1141 regulates the rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs.
Pg 379, Sec 1191 mandates the creation of even more bureaucracy in the Telehealth Advisory Committee.
PG 425, lines 4-12 mandates “Advance Care Planning Consultation,” another insidious vehicle to save money by encouraging seniors who are in poor health to be more accepting of death rather than fighting to stay alive and healthy and with their loved ones.
Pg 425, lines 17-19 mandates that all senior patients will be consulted regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney.
PG 425, lines 22-25, 426 lines 1-3 provides an approved list of end of life resources, to help guide seniors about the process of dying!
PG 427, lines 15 mandates program for orders on the end of life, actually giving the government a say in how your life ends!
Pg 429, lines 1-9 dictates the frequency with which an Advance Care Planning Consultant will have to meet with patients as their health deteriorates.
PG 429, lines 10-12 give an Advance Care Planning Consultant the power to order end of life plans for a patient.
Pg 354, Sec 1177 will arbitrarily restrict the enrollment of special needs children and adults.
Pg 429, lines 13-25 will only allow certain doctors, not necessarily your own physician, to write an end of life order.
PG 430, lines 11-15 allows the government to decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life.
Pg 494-498 allows government to define mental illnesses and what services will be allowed to treat, again rationing this care.
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Sharpienads
11-11-2012, 17:38
Where did you get this from?
buckshotbarlow
11-11-2012, 20:22
Where did you get this from?
http://www.coachisright.com/special-reports/50-dangers-from-obamacare/
buckshotbarlow
11-11-2012, 20:23
Most of my looking into this garbage started at church....someone there put together one hell of a board. I'll post a pic next Sunday.
seems it's coming to light more and more every day that Ocare is gonna screw the pooch.........found this story today.
http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/willis-report/blog/2012/11/12/obamacare-jack-insurance-premiums
OH MY GOD! Nynco is back!? Rucker, step away from the Guillotine, you've gotten a reprieve! Holy crap- nynco hasn't been on since before the great crash... And here we thought we ran him (her?) off for good... [ROFL1]
TRnCO- There are about 6,000 stories just like that, so much it's scary. Look at your own insurance premiums on renewal, I'll bet they go way up... Also, not being reported on as much, companies that are cutting back either by layoffs or downgrading their F/T to P/T. Buckle up kids, this is gonna be a bumpy ride! [Mad]
OH MY GOD! Nynco is back!? Rucker, step away from the Guillotine, you've gotten a reprieve! Holy crap- nynco hasn't been on since before the great crash... And here we thought we ran him (her?) off for good... [ROFL1]
Already participated in a locked thread. Seems he ruffled a few feathers. :D https://www.ar-15.co/threads/71089-Bullets-going-going-gone
Hey its not my fault that some people can't handle another point of view.
spqrzilla
11-13-2012, 20:09
Hey its not my fault that some people can't handle another point of view.
What is your fault is that you don't understand any one else's point of view, your understandings of the counterarguments are cartoonish. And you really are not at all informed on the topics you so boldly dump your opinions on. You stopped reading at the end of the bumper.
Thats your opinion spqrzilla. Notice how I don't treat you the same way you treat me. I know most of you will not agree with me. But I don't go around bullying you guys like you do to me. So if anyone is cartoonist about shit, it is you guys to me. Sadly knee jerk predictable...
TEAMRICO
11-13-2012, 21:31
Aahhhh Liberalism.. Making life so much better every single day. Just not for you.
Praise Dear Leader!
Dear leader?... who Bush? He's gone, why do you keep on bringing him up. I mean the guy was an embarrassment and still is.
DSB OUTDOORS
11-13-2012, 21:56
Dear leader?... who Bush? He's gone, why do you keep on bringing him up. I mean the guy was an embarrassment and still is.
Dude!!?? Give it a rest already. You screwed the pooch for voting for the O-Bamanation. O great he won. We want him out period. Go to sleep, you retards won for now. F-Off. And dream of all the money and free health care and food stamps you will be living on for the next 4 years.
And we will take care of all of you with our tax money. You LAZY Libtard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the irony of your statement. All the worst welfare states in the union are red states. The old tired line you guys run is passed. That is not who we are, it is who you have become.
I was being perfectly nice when I came back. But then on Veterans day I had one of you psychos call me a traitor.... for what... not voting for who you all wanted. So, yeah sorry for hurting YOUR feelings. You want to know why you lost. Look in the mirror. I would have gladly voted for Ron Paul or Huntsman. But NOOOOO the modern GOP is not the party of Eisenhower, it is the party lost in loony world. I am not an Obama supporter. I voted for him because he was better than the giant douche on the other side. Its a screwed up country where we are told we are free but forced to vote for the two party dictatorshit. I would hope that you all would figure that out after having to support Romney.
I also have a custom built AR. I built it from parts. Each item how I want and ever changing. Building a new Mega Arms lower right now.
http://truth-out.org/buzzflash/commentary/item/17515-romney-decries-his-red-state-southern-base-as-lazy-moochers-the-47
"The Tax Foundation unequivocally states, "Nine of the ten states with the largest percentage of nonpayers are in the South and Southwest. In Mississippi, 45 percent of federal tax returns remit nothing or receive money with their federal tax returns; that is the highest percentage nationally. Georgia is next at 41 percent, followed by Arkansas at 41 percent, and Alabama, South Carolina,"
Teufelhund
11-14-2012, 01:33
nynco, your arguments have no basis in reality because your basic premise is flawed. Anyone who supports Obamacare in its current form does not understand or advocate the concept of liberty. No one has a fundamental Right to healthcare. Wait. . . let's back up and take the specifics out of it: No one has a Right to receive anything from anyone. To mandate otherwise is tyranny in its rawest form.
If you think socialized medicine is a good idea, you need to go spend some time in a country where it has been in place for a while and actually talk to some of the folks who live there. I'll give you a little anecdote in the meantime. My wife and I recently spent a couple weeks with her grandmother, who lives in Vienna. One morning over breakfast, she and I had a lively political discussion where Grossmutti espoused over and over the wonderful merits of socialized medicine. During our taxi ride home from the opera the following evening, she pointed out a large building to one side and said, "This is a very nice hospital, but it is only for those who pay. If I get sick, I must go across town to the other hospital, which is not quite so good." I was too dumbfounded to argue, and filled with pity for a 98-year-old woman so fully indoctrinated in a failed policy she did not even realize what she was saying. Meanwhile, citizens of Austria who make less than most of us here pay as much as 50% of their income to fund social programs such as the privilege of substandard healthcare.
Sorry don't agree with your premise at all. I believe in civilization. The way of thinking "No one has a Right to receive anything from anyone." thankfully went out with the dark ages. Honestly, if you extremists which you are an extremist if you believe that the gov should do nothing but military, want to secede, I am all for it. I am sick of fighting these never ending battles where we keep on repeating the mistakes of the past. 2 republican great depressions each preceded by deregulation and massive tax cuts for the wealthy. But nooo its all because of the welfare poor. We have over 100 years of data of what works and what does not. There is no debate, the right wing model for economics has failed and you guys still cling to it.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2012/10/10/want-a-better-economy-history-says-vote-democrat/
Personal disposable income has grown nearly 6 times more under Democratic presidents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_%28United_States%29)
Gross Domestic Product (GDP) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product) has grown 7 times more under Democratic presidents
Corporate profits have grown over 16% more per year under Democratic presidents (they actually declined under Republicans by an average of 4.53%/year)
Average annual compound return on the stock market has been 18 times greater under Democratic presidents (If you invested $100k for 40 years of Republican administrations you had $126k at the end, if you invested $100k for 40 years of Democrat administrations you had $3.9M at the end)
Republican presidents added 2.5 times more to the national debt than Democratic presidents
The two times the economy steered into the ditch (Great Depression and Great Recession (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-2000s_recession)) were during Republican, laissez faire administrations
the irony of your statement. All the worst welfare states in the union are red states. The old tired line you guys run is passed. That is not who we are, it is who you have become.
You are so full of shit.
http://truth-out.org/buzzflash/commentary/item/17515-romney-decries-his-red-state-southern-base-as-lazy-moochers-the-47
"The Tax Foundation unequivocally states, "Nine of the ten states with the largest percentage of nonpayers are in the South and Southwest. In Mississippi, 45 percent of federal tax returns remit nothing or receive money with their federal tax returns; that is the highest percentage nationally. Georgia is next at 41 percent, followed by Arkansas at 41 percent, and Alabama, South Carolina,"
The tax base is in the high rent districts. Of course the financial centers take in more taxes than the deep south. Of course the poverty level there is lower and folks tend to be non-filers or get refunds. [Bang]
Libs like to manufacture the numbers to work in their favor by touting Fed outlays compared to state input. That includes all programs - roads, bridges, military bases, etc. and overlooks the fact that many deep south "red" states have less educated populations making less money, thereby paying less into the system. The data is oft repeated on many, many Lib sites.
How about we talk about the takers, the moochers, the leeches of our hard earned tax dollars? 4.5M on welfare.
This shows a representative mix but the data is old. http://www.statemaster.com/graph/eco_wel_cas_tot_rec-economy-welfare-caseloads-total-recipients
This is more current data. http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/ofa/resource/2011-07-tanssp-0
Caseload data top takers:
#1 California
#2 New York
#3 Ohio
#4 Michigan
#5 Tennessee
#6 Pennsylvania
#7 Washington
#8 Texas
#9 Massachusetts
#10 Florida
This one includes food stamp recipients. Barring Texas, which has very low welfare takers, The big moochers are Blue states. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/01/25/us/20090126-welfare-table.html
Where's the largest population of assistance recipients?
#1 California
#2 New York
#3 Pennsylvania
#4 Michigan
#5 Ohio
How about Food stamps?
#1 Texas*
#2 California
#3 New York
#4 Florida
#5 Illinois
#6 Michigan
#7 Pennsylvania
#8 Ohio
* Texas has a low welfare handout. That tells me there are hard working people barely scraping by but needing assistance, but at least they are working and not sitting on their ass eating bon bons.
As a fair comparison, the top 10 states by income to the Fed:
1 California
2 New York
3 Texas
4 Florida
5 Illinois
6 New Jersey
7 Pennsylvania
8 Ohio
9 Minnesota
10 North Carolina
Just the facts man, just the facts. I get mine from published government or non-biased media reports.
Sorry don't agree with your premise at all. I believe in civilization. The way of thinking "No one has a Right to receive anything from anyone." thankfully went out with the dark ages. Honestly, if you extremists which you are an extremist if you believe that the gov should do nothing but military, want to secede, I am all for it. I am sick of fighting these never ending battles where we keep on repeating the mistakes of the past. 2 republican great depressions each preceded by deregulation and massive tax cuts for the wealthy. But nooo its all because of the welfare poor. We have over 100 years of data of what works and what does not. There is no debate, the right wing model for economics has failed and you guys still cling to it.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2012/10/10/want-a-better-economy-history-says-vote-democrat/
Personal disposable income has grown nearly 6 times more under Democratic presidents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_%28United_States%29)
Gross Domestic Product (GDP) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product) has grown 7 times more under Democratic presidents
Corporate profits have grown over 16% more per year under Democratic presidents (they actually declined under Republicans by an average of 4.53%/year)
Average annual compound return on the stock market has been 18 times greater under Democratic presidents (If you invested $100k for 40 years of Republican administrations you had $126k at the end, if you invested $100k for 40 years of Democrat administrations you had $3.9M at the end)
Republican presidents added 2.5 times more to the national debt than Democratic presidents
The two times the economy steered into the ditch (Great Depression and Great Recession (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-2000s_recession)) were during Republican, laissez faire administrations
So when the Dems inherit shit from their predecessor, it's Bush's fault, but when they inherit prosperity, they did it all on their own.
Brilliant.
speedysst
11-14-2012, 05:20
[QUOTE=nynco;731659]Sorry don't agree with your premise at all. I believe in civilization. The way of thinking "No one has a Right to receive anything from anyone." thankfully went out with the dark ages. Honestly, if you extremists which you are an extremist if you believe that the gov should do nothing but military, want to secede, I am all for it. I am sick of fighting these never ending battles where we keep on repeating the mistakes of the past. 2 republican great depressions each preceded by deregulation and massive tax cuts for the wealthy. But nooo its all because of the welfare poor. We have over 100 years of data of what works and what does not. There is no debate, the right wing model for economics has failed and you guys still cling to it.
Well, from my observations of the last 4 years, your left wing model for economics isn't working so hot either. So....
Bailey Guns
11-14-2012, 05:59
If you voted for Obama, you're my enemy.
hghclsswhitetrsh
11-14-2012, 08:01
If you voted for Obama, you're my enemy.
This, and an enemy to the United States.
spqrzilla
11-14-2012, 08:10
I am sick of fighting these never ending battles where we keep on repeating the mistakes of the past. 2 republican great depressions each preceded by deregulation and massive tax cuts for the wealthy.
....
The two times the economy steered into the ditch (Great Depression and Great Recession (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-2000s_recession)) were during Republican, laissez faire administrations
More of your brazen lies, nynco. Or ignorance, its hard to tell which because of your incompetence. There was no "massive" tax cut for the wealthy in either case. The Bush era tax rates reduced taxation for all taxpayers. If that wasn't so, why is it that the Democrats don't want to just see it entirely expire at the end of the year?
And there was no deregulation by the G.W. Bush administration. The idea that G.W. Bush was laissez faire is outright ridiculous. For your information, the Federal Register didn't cease publication from 2001 to 2009. Democrats often falsely blame the repeal of Glass-Steagal for the financial crisis, but that was pushed by the Clinton administration.
You just keep making stuff up. Dishonest or utterly uninformed, its become a bore to try to figure out.
Aloha_Shooter
11-14-2012, 08:22
1. If you believe so much in socialized government-provided medicine, serve a few tours in the military. It took me three years and four orthopedic surgeons to get my torn rotator cuff repaired. My "sprained" ankle from 20+ years never was fully healed.
2. There was only one Great Depression despite what the left-wing propaganda spews. The Great Recession of 2008 was created by government intrusion in the marketplace, specifically the Community Reinvestment Act and aggressive enforcement of it under the Clinton administration spurred by Barney Frank and Chris Dodd. This recession was NOT the worst since the Great Depression in 2008 as it was then exceeded by the Carter Recession of 1979-1982 (unemployment + interest rates) until this recession was exacerbated and prolonged by Obama's policies. It doesn't much matter whether we are in a double-dip or triple-dip recession (if you believe economists claiming an imperceptible recovery in 2010) or still in one long one.
Please cite where non-emergency federal expenditures on healthcare, education, housing, etc. are authorized under the Constitution (and don't give me any weak sauce about the "general welfare" clause either as "promote the general welfare" is in the preamble, not in any article of authorization or amendment).
History has shown repeatedly that these Stalinist-Maoist government-centric systems never work out economically in the long run. The British NHS was virtually bankrupt and pushing British doctors to come to America before free market reforms were put in place. European governments are still trying to figure out how to have their cake and eat it too. Oil in the North Sea is the one main reason Norway has been able to maintain its current socialized healthcare system. Try it without the deus ex machina of a huge natural resource influx or sudden industry boom like the Internet in the early/mid-1990s.
The uneducated were scammed by Obama's "free stuff" promises, the unapologetic liberals didn't care about the truth or economic realities ... and of course there're people in both categories like at least one troll in this forum. I said before the election that there were three reasons for voting for Obama in 2012: 1) you were asleep for the last 3.5 years, 2) you're an unapologetic die-hard Marxist or 3) you're dumber than a box of Rice Krispies (well, I said something more politically incorrect and offensive than this but with the same intent). I stand by that statement.
dwalker460
11-14-2012, 08:56
http://truth-out.org/buzzflash/commentary/item/17515-romney-decries-his-red-state-southern-base-as-lazy-moochers-the-47
"The Tax Foundation unequivocally states, "Nine of the ten states with the largest percentage of nonpayers are in the South and Southwest. In Mississippi, 45 percent of federal tax returns remit nothing or receive money with their federal tax returns; that is the highest percentage nationally. Georgia is next at 41 percent, followed by Arkansas at 41 percent, and Alabama, South Carolina,"
Ahhh yeah, those states are RED and made up of people who believe in paying their share and not a penny more. As a Tennessee hilljack, let me tell you that we paid our taxes, but you bet your ass we wanted the money we did not owe the government back. If I had my way we would not have our taxes pulled out of our paycheck, just pay them quarterly or annually.
Even when the Dems inherent the pile of crap the conservatives leave, they still do better. Just goes to show you. You hand the conservatives a working economy and in no time they tank it. Hand the "liberals" (really moderate conservatives in the Democrap party) the pile of crap and they fix it.
Ahhh yeah, those states are RED and made up of people who believe in paying their share and not a penny more. As a Tennessee hilljack, let me tell you that we paid our taxes, but you bet your ass we wanted the money we did not owe the government back. If I had my way we would not have our taxes pulled out of our paycheck, just pay them quarterly or annually.
Yeah those red states talk a good game and then suck on the gov tit more than anyone else. Then to top it all off they support politicians that hate gov and vow to destroy it. Talk about biting the hand that feeds. If we went back to the wet dream that you guys envision that is nothing more than The Articles of Confederation all over (which failed) the red states would look like Somalia. Which some of them are not far off once you get into the back woods.
Byte Stryke
11-14-2012, 09:57
Umm The republic of Texas has a stronger economy on its own than 95% of the world... its ranked 14th in the WORLD (http://econpost.com/texaseconomy/texas-economy-ranking-world).
Next time you are drooling over rifles and handguns, I suggest you look into where they are made.
we make F22s and Glocks within 4 miles of my residence in Smyrna GA.
This is not the south of the past
1. If you believe so much in socialized government-provided medicine, serve a few tours in the military. It took me three years and four orthopedic surgeons to get my torn rotator cuff repaired. My "sprained" ankle from 20+ years never was fully healed.
2. There was only one Great Depression despite what the left-wing propaganda spews. The Great Recession of 2008 was created by government intrusion in the marketplace, specifically the Community Reinvestment Act and aggressive enforcement of it under the Clinton administration spurred by Barney Frank and Chris Dodd. This recession was NOT the worst since the Great Depression in 2008 as it was then exceeded by the Carter Recession of 1979-1982 (unemployment + interest rates) until this recession was exacerbated and prolonged by Obama's policies. It doesn't much matter whether we are in a double-dip or triple-dip recession (if you believe economists claiming an imperceptible recovery in 2010) or still in one long one.
Please cite where non-emergency federal expenditures on healthcare, education, housing, etc. are authorized under the Constitution (and don't give me any weak sauce about the "general welfare" clause either as "promote the general welfare" is in the preamble, not in any article of authorization or amendment).
History has shown repeatedly that these Stalinist-Maoist government-centric systems never work out economically in the long run. The British NHS was virtually bankrupt and pushing British doctors to come to America before free market reforms were put in place. European governments are still trying to figure out how to have their cake and eat it too. Oil in the North Sea is the one main reason Norway has been able to maintain its current socialized healthcare system. Try it without the deus ex machina of a huge natural resource influx or sudden industry boom like the Internet in the early/mid-1990s.
The uneducated were scammed by Obama's "free stuff" promises, the unapologetic liberals didn't care about the truth or economic realities ... and of course there're people in both categories like at least one troll in this forum. I said before the election that there were three reasons for voting for Obama in 2012: 1) you were asleep for the last 3.5 years, 2) you're an unapologetic die-hard Marxist or 3) you're dumber than a box of Rice Krispies (well, I said something more politically incorrect and offensive than this but with the same intent). I stand by that statement.
I will address by your number system.
1. Soft tissue joint injuries are impossible to fix. You think you would have gotten a better result in the private sector? Where you had to PAY? Ha ha ha... Be realistic about your recovery. I tell everyone that is younger, once you pop it, thats it, it will keep on popping. Esp shoulders. Once your shoulder starts to dislocate it will only get worse. Start working out and pray your muscles can make up for your soft tissue damage. So don't blame the VA for that.
2. You got to be kidding me if you think the melt down was caused by gov intrusion. It happened because we deregulated the banks. We took off Glass Steigel and the banks went looking for suckers. Had we kept the reforms of Roosevelt which the GOP were creaming their pants to deregulate. NONE of that would have been permitted to happen. The Great Recession would have been worse had we not spent our way out of it to reboot the collapse. Even then, it was not enough. But it helped. Carter... you really want to bring that up. Well Carter did better than BUSH. News flash we will be in bad economic times till we start to fix the mess that started with Reagan.
Sub part about non emergency healthcare what ever. So what did Obama care do? It FORCED the states to create a healthcare exchange and then subsidizes those who can't afford it. That is the CONSERVATIVE MODEL for healthcare reform that you guys put forward for the last 50 years. Obama is a moderate republican in action, you would know that if you studied history and stopped listening to the right wing garbage called news.
Don't bring up Britain. That well was poisoned by Thatcher. Look at Germany, Norway, Denmark. Fuck Britain
The uneducated were scammed by Obamas free stuff. Well what free stuff was that. I would say the only people that were scammed are the ones who watch Faux news everyday.
I am not a marxist you NAZI... see nazi is a vile thing to say. So don't go around calling me something I am not. Got it?
spqrzilla
11-14-2012, 10:10
Even when the Dems inherent the pile of crap the conservatives leave, they still do better. Just goes to show you. You hand the conservatives a working economy and in no time they tank it. Hand the "liberals" (really moderate conservatives in the Democrap party) the pile of crap and they fix it.
Utter horse manure. Obama currently has produced more months with 8% unemployment or higher than all the post war Presidents combined.
nynco, it is astonishing how much you make up crap that's just the farthest from reality one can get.
hghclsswhitetrsh
11-14-2012, 10:12
^^^ that's cute. I will be the bad guy redneck backwards hill billy and state the honest truth. The ONLY fucking reason he was re-elected is because he's black. The polls don't lie. Please don't call Obama something he won't even call himself. That my friend makes you look ignorant. When was the last time you rolled through the ghetto and entered the homes there? Shit isn't getting better with Obama, it is getting worse. But I reckon that's Bush's fault. Yes I just said reckon.
spqrzilla
11-14-2012, 10:13
nynco continues to make up stuff:
You got to be kidding me if you think the melt down was caused by gov intrusion. It happened because we deregulated the banks. We took off Glass Steigel and the banks went looking for suckers. Had we kept the reforms of Roosevelt which the GOP were creaming their pants to deregulate. NONE of that would have been permitted to happen.
Clinton signed the bipartisan repeal of Glass Steagall in the Gramm Leach Bliley act. It was pushed by his Treasurer secretary - Robert Rubin- who was the mentor of Obama's treasury secretary Tim "Turbo Tax" Geitner.
Your ignorance is matched only by your willingness to fabricate nonsense.
More of your brazen lies, nynco. Or ignorance, its hard to tell which because of your incompetence. There was no "massive" tax cut for the wealthy in either case. The Bush era tax rates reduced taxation for all taxpayers. If that wasn't so, why is it that the Democrats don't want to just see it entirely expire at the end of the year?
And there was no deregulation by the G.W. Bush administration. The idea that G.W. Bush was laissez faire is outright ridiculous. For your information, the Federal Register didn't cease publication from 2001 to 2009. Democrats often falsely blame the repeal of Glass-Steagal for the financial crisis, but that was pushed by the Clinton administration.
You just keep making stuff up. Dishonest or utterly uninformed, its become a bore to try to figure out.
You think Glass Stegal was pushed by Clintoon. Do you know who authorized its repeal or who was in charge of both the House and the Senate at the time. Obviously not... Start with this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm%E2%80%93Leach%E2%80%93Bliley_Act
Yeah somehow a bill created by 3 conservatives ... means it was Clintoons fault. Another example of how the conservative media lied to you.
Bush deregulation. Well... Bush mainly did that by appointing people that were formerly being overseen by the Gov to be in charge. So what did they do? Stop enforcing the law and then cut back on all the inspectors so no one could anyways. Kinda like the fox guarding the hen house. http://www.governmentisgood.com/articles.php?aid=15
spqrzilla
11-14-2012, 10:20
Still making up stuff, I see.
Wikipedia is a joke but since you think it means something, from Rubin's bio on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Rubin)
Rubin and his deputy Lawrence Summers also steered through the 1999 repeal of the Glass–Steagall Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass%E2%80%93Steagall_Act) (1933), which had separated investment banking from the retail side. It allowed the banks to develop and sell the mortgage-backed instruments that became a principal factor in the financial collapse.
At this stage, its become obvious that your dishonesty is intentional. I through with correcting your fabrications.
^^^ that's cute. I will be the bad guy redneck backwards hill billy and state the honest truth. The ONLY fucking reason he was re-elected is because he's black. The polls don't lie. Please don't call Obama something he won't even call himself. That my friend makes you look ignorant. When was the last time you rolled through the ghetto and entered the homes there? Shit isn't getting better with Obama, it is getting worse. But I reckon that's Bush's fault. Yes I just said reckon.
And it will get even worse. Because Obama is too much of a whimp to fix it. We have systemic problems that were created over the last 30+ years. No amount of dabling around the edges like Obama is doing will fix that. It will just re-inflate the bubble and set us up for the next crash. The only way to fix this mess is to end the insanity of basing our economy off consumer spending (the "service economy") and go back to being a manufacturing powerhouse. Reagan was the turning point for that. We went from being the largest creditor nation before him to the largest debtor nation after. Time to go back to what Alexander Hamilton left in place until Reagan and Clintoon started to dismantle it with NAFTA, GATT, and China Free Trade. Time to put America first and not Wallstreet. We need to go back to a tariff system and build America back. We can still trade and we will. But not like the insane system we have now.
Great-Kazoo
11-14-2012, 10:23
You think Glass Stegal was pushed by Clintoon. Do you know who authorized its repeal or who was in charge of both the House and the Senate at the time. Obviously not... Start with this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm%E2%80%93Leach%E2%80%93Bliley_Act
Yeah somehow a bill created by 3 conservatives ... means it was Clintoons fault. Another example of how the conservative media lied to you.
Bush deregulation. Well... Bush mainly did that by appointing people that were formerly being overseen by the Gov to be in charge. So what did they do? Stop enforcing the law and then cut back on all the inspectors so no one could anyways. Kinda like the fox guarding the hen house. http://www.governmentisgood.com/articles.php?aid=15
You didn't learn your lesson with the I voted for O post. ??
Both parties share in the blame. 1 too eager to pass and 1 too lazy to read it. Once again IF Congress was held to the same standards regarding health care, taxes and benefit packages, not one bill would ever see the light of day.
Still making up stuff, I see.
Wikipedia is a joke but since you think it means something, from Rubin's bio on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Rubin)
At this stage, its become obvious that your dishonesty is intentional. I through with correcting your fabrications.
Notice how I always say Clintoon.... why? Because Clinton was a Republican with a D after his name. He was the best Republican president in modern times. But even then, you still think that an bill AUTHORIZED BY ALL CONSERVATIVES was somehow a liberal plot. Dear lord... talk about disillusion or dishonest. Which is it?
You didn't learn your lesson with the I voted for O post. ??
Both parties share in the blame. 1 too eager to pass and 1 too lazy to read it. Once again IF Congress was held to the same standards regarding health care, taxes and benefit packages, not one bill would ever see the light of day.
I 100000000% agree both parties share the blame. But part of the root of that stems back to the conservative mime that Money is free speech (Buckley vs Valeo) and that corporations have the same rights as people to buy or politicians political reelection. So both parties are to blame for it. But how we fix it is to end those things.
Dear leader?... who Bush? He's gone, why do you keep on bringing him up. I mean the guy was an embarrassment and still is.
No one brought Bush up there, high speed, except you. Why do liberals keep harping on Bush as if he was the anti-christ and/or the worst president in history? Why is everything his fault? Are democrats that devoid of responsibility that they can't say "okay, well it looks like this black mark goes to Obama." I'm tired of liberals saying "Obama won, get over it." Oh, you mean like how you guys are over Bush? Oh wait, you're not. What happens in 2016 when we're even worse off? Is it still Bush's fault? Will the left ever take responsibility for their own shortcomings? Seriously, you want to talk about embarrassments, look at your holy deity, Barrack Hussein Marshall-Davis-Obama... Out of all of the candidates of the last 12 years (even pre-primary) he has been the least qualified for that job, and somehow he duped us into electing him (or someone did). You honestly believe that Obamacare is really going to help things? You must not even pay for your own insurance, otherwise you'd probably be pissed.
Byte Stryke
11-14-2012, 10:38
Didn't the (D) start the "fair housing act"?
Just a question out there... no fingers or anything.
Yep and it was just a part. A small part compared to deregulating the banks. The deregulation of the banks allowed them to abuse the "Fair Housing Act". Heck I would not put it past the banks to bribe our gov to have both. A perfect storm...
No one brought Bush up there, high speed, except you. Why do liberals keep harping on Bush as if he was the anti-christ and/or the worst president in history? Why is everything his fault? Are democrats that devoid of responsibility that they can't say "okay, well it looks like this black mark goes to Obama." I'm tired of liberals saying "Obama won, get over it." Oh, you mean like how you guys are over Bush? Oh wait, you're not. What happens in 2016 when we're even worse off? Is it still Bush's fault? Will the left ever take responsibility for their own shortcomings? Seriously, you want to talk about embarrassments, look at your holy deity, Barrack Hussein Marshall-Davis-Obama... Out of all of the candidates of the last 12 years (even pre-primary) he has been the least qualified for that job, and somehow he duped us into electing him (or someone did). You honestly believe that Obamacare is really going to help things? You must not even pay for your own insurance, otherwise you'd probably be pissed.
Ronin maybe you should research why so many Americans blame Bush. You might learn why we are where we are. It has been said repeatedly, that the damage Bush (and 30+ years of Reaganomics) has done to this nation will take YEARS or DECADES to fix. Mainly because Obama is not fixing the root rot. He is just doing more of the same.
This, and an enemy to the United States.
Congratulations for you have officially made the most idiotic statement I have ever heard on this forum.
^^^ that's cute. I will be the bad guy redneck backwards hill billy and state the honest truth. The ONLY fucking reason he was re-elected is because he's black. The polls don't lie. Please don't call Obama something he won't even call himself. That my friend makes you look ignorant. When was the last time you rolled through the ghetto and entered the homes there? Shit isn't getting better with Obama, it is getting worse. But I reckon that's Bush's fault. Yes I just said reckon.
You don't think it has anything to do with the fact that the GOP couldn't field a viable candidate? Your statement is indicative of a party who has lost touch with it's base; it's not the GOP's fault... "it's because of race that we couldn't win an election that should have been won by default." It's almost like they went out of their way to field the worst candidate possible. Then, to top it all off, I have to listen to cry babies like you on this forum talk about how it's all race and those who voted (no matter their choice) and chose to actively participate in our system of democracy regardless of how broken it is are enemies of the United States of America just because they didn't agree with YOUR choice. You sound like a petulant child.
Byte Stryke
11-14-2012, 11:13
I have a great idea, Lets increase taxes on the rich!
Its not like they will leave the country taking their companies and jobs with them... it worked so well for France, right?
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/europe/france/120928/millionaires-tax-hollande-budget-millionaires-tax
If today you live in Lille then you pay French tax. If tomorrow you move to London then you are subject to UK tax laws, not those of France. You do not have to change citizenship, do not require a permit or permission to do this, you just buy a train ticket and 90 minutes or so later there you are. Free of the French tax system.
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2012/09/france-plans-tax-its-millionaires-75-percent/57397/
Ronin maybe you should research why so many Americans blame Bush. You might learn why we are where we are. It has been said repeatedly, that the damage Bush (and 30+ years of Reaganomics) has done to this nation will take YEARS or DECADES to fix. Mainly because Obama is not fixing the root rot. He is just doing more of the same.
I'm not saying Bush didn't do some bad things for our economy... sure we probably shouldn't have gone into Iraq, but I do agree with our reasons and mission in Afghanistan, and think Bush had no choice there. Dems keep blaming Reaganomics when that is simply not the case- it goes back further (FDR!!!), our presidents past wrote a check that 60-90 years later would catch up to them (I'm talking about SS, Medicare, Medicaid, welfare) once they became overburdened... and we're reaching capacity now. It's been said by experts for about six years now, we probably need to slim down or outright kill one of these sacred cows in order to prevent further economic turmoil. But Obama will never be that president to head the sacrifice. Too many rely on government handouts, when it's been said repeatedly, the private sector might actually do better with this job than the Feds.
Like Byte said... Let's eat the rich! They'll just roll over and take it, they don't have the balls to jump ship... [Bang]
spqrzilla
11-14-2012, 12:19
Back to the thread.
Obama top donor's company laying off people due to Obamacare (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/11/13/Obama-Donor-s-Corporation-Lays-Off-Employees-Due-to-ObamaCare).
Obamacare just cost me my raise and im %20-25 underpaid for my position already
ChunkyMonkey
11-14-2012, 14:55
^ what wulf said.. I think the majority of American workers don't realize how much Ocare is going to increase the inflation while the job and income growth have been playing catchup since the early 90s.
I'm not saying Bush didn't do some bad things for our economy... sure we probably shouldn't have gone into Iraq, but I do agree with our reasons and mission in Afghanistan, and think Bush had no choice there. Dems keep blaming Reaganomics when that is simply not the case- it goes back further (FDR!!!), our presidents past wrote a check that 60-90 years later would catch up to them (I'm talking about SS, Medicare, Medicaid, welfare) once they became overburdened... and we're reaching capacity now. It's been said by experts for about six years now, we probably need to slim down or outright kill one of these sacred cows in order to prevent further economic turmoil. But Obama will never be that president to head the sacrifice. Too many rely on government handouts, when it's been said repeatedly, the private sector might actually do better with this job than the Feds.
Like Byte said... Let's eat the rich! They'll just roll over and take it, they don't have the balls to jump ship... [Bang]
I have no problems with Afghan. One of the many drops in the bucket that made me change from supporting Bush to not was how he handled that like he did not give a shit. And yes it goes back to FDR. The period from FDR till Reagan was a time when Liberal economics ruled. Then Reagan came along and rewrote damn near all the rules. You have a before and after over a 40 year period for both. Well there is no debate the hard numbers show that we did worse post Reagan.
And if the rich want to leave the US... GOOD... GTFO it will make more opportunities for hard workers to take over. That happened after the Revolutionary War and America was better off for it. Don't cower anytime one of those pompous douche bags tries to scare you.
What have you not been paying attention, garbage like that has been happening as long as I can remember. Healthcare costs going through the roof and the companies making you pay more of a deductible or premium... raise? WTF is that?
ChunkyMonkey
11-14-2012, 15:39
^^ No clue about economics. Post revolutionary war economy was so bad that the US practically stop trading w/ the traditional European partners due to The British embargo/blockade. New market in the far east opened up, the US exported fur and wood products to China. In the 21st century, there is no new market. Rich people does not equal large corporations which is backed by the current administration. If you are telling me that Obama is willing to let AIG, GE, JP Morgan etc to fall apart w/o bailout, then yes I agree with you. It will opens up opportunity to the workers and fresh ups when the market bottom out. The truth is, Democrats are as guilty if not worse when it comes to large corporations. You sir are speaking out of you ass.
I agree both sides are guilty. I just don't pee myself when some rich traitor threatens to leave America. If he wants to go...GTFO I won't beg for him to stay by coddling him.
ChunkyMonkey
11-14-2012, 15:45
Noone asked you to beg. The fact remains the same, for a govt to make life such a living hell for a portion of the population is unacceptable. To make the more important portion (the job creators) to leave is exactly what the communists, socialists, and fascists have done in the past. Despite your personal opinion, the US needs these folks and the workers are NOT better with out them.
Noone asked you to beg. The fact remains the same, for a govt to make life such a living hell for a portion of the population is unacceptable. To make the more important portion (the job creators) to leave is exactly what the communists, socialists, and fascists have done in the past. Despite your personal opinion, the US needs these folks and the workers are NOT better with out them.
A living hell? Are you kidding me. ALL the increases in earnings over the last few decades went to them. You got NOTHIN and you want to worry about them? They are not job creators, they are job horders. They offshored this nation for their personal gain. The people who are job creators are YOU and I. Our DEMAND drives the economy and when we don't have money to buy jack shit the economy goes tits up..... Like NOW
spqrzilla
11-14-2012, 15:58
Municipal budgets expected to see 9% increases in health care premium costs due to Obamacare (http://www.gjsentinel.com/news/articles/municipal-budgets-take-healthcare-hit-in-2013/) as it continues to fail and fail so badly that our economy continues to lag in the doldrums and a recession looms.
Return to the average taxrates from 1940 till Reagan and we would be in a surplus over night and have our debt paid off in a few years.
spqrzilla
11-14-2012, 16:12
Return to the average taxrates from 1940 till Reagan and we would be in a surplus over night and have our debt paid off in a few years.
False.
If you look at this chart, you'll see that the Federal revenue has always averaged around 17% of GDP (third column from right) (http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=205) even in those periods of this magic unicorn dust tax rates before the Reagan tax reform. Because the nominally higher tax rates applied to less income due to all of the available deductions then current.
nynco just makes up stuff.
spqrzilla
11-14-2012, 16:17
In fact, nynco is amazingly reliable. If nynco makes a factual statement, it about guaranteed to be false.
I agree both sides are guilty. I just don't pee myself when some rich traitor threatens to leave America. If he wants to go...GTFO I won't beg for him to stay by coddling him.
You call them traitors, but guess what- THEY'RE THE ASSHOLES GIVING THE TAKERS ALL THEIR FREE SHIT! They're the ones who create the jobs, they're the ones who invest in ideas, businesses, and people. They also happen to be the ones that pretty much ensure that most charitable organizations still exist- or did you forget that those greedy, rich, white guys who make sure that the American offices for those premium automakers stay open actually do give to charity? How many very wealthy people do you know? I know quite a few... Some of them are our very best clients and we're in business because of them. Careful what you wish for comrade...
Giving? So now someone who works for a job is a taker? Rich people don't create jobs because they benevolent or because they are charitable. Hell NO, they do it because there is DEMAND for something and if there is a way for them to make more money by hiring someone, they will. YOU AND I are the people who drive demand to create jobs. Since the wealthy have been hording all the increases in wealth (productivity gains), the demand dropped off. They powers that be hid that economic collapse by making credit cheap. So we never saw the drop in wages till the crash of credit. You guys are off in la la land if you think the rich are job creators. It stands your whole free market theory on its head.
spqrzilla
11-14-2012, 18:32
I never got hired by a poor man, nynco. You only reinforce your lack of credibility with the silly stuff you write.
No but you have been hired by many middle class and small business men. My point still stands. NO ONE WILL EVER HIRE ANYONE IF THERE IS NO DEMAND FOR A PRODUCT OR SERVICE. No rich guy will ever hire a person unless there is demand. We the buyers create demand.
spqrzilla
11-14-2012, 19:03
Man, nynco collects a couple of unemployment checks and thinks he's an entrepreneur.
When you got nothing this is all you can do in reply. Just too stuborn to admit that I am right.
palepainter
11-14-2012, 19:19
[ROFL2][Pop]
Aloha_Shooter
11-14-2012, 19:21
There will be far fewer middle class and small businessmen hiring in the wake of the idiotic economic measure Obama proposed and nynco supported. I'm worried for my friends who will find their hours reduced (or eliminated) so the middle class and small businessmen that still exist take the measures they need to in order to stay in business. No one will hire anyone if their costs to do so exceed what they will get from that labor -- having buyers for a $5 item doesn't help if that item costs $6 to produce.
The issue isn't people working for a living. The issue is people who AREN'T working and don't want to work. The issue is people demanding pay and benefits for their work that exceeds the economic value of that work. The issue is government spending more than it takes in. Reaganomics increased the flow of capital through the private sector AND increased tax revenues collected by the federal government but was unacceptable to those Marxists who think all money belongs to the government and people should only be allowed to keep what's "fair" (you can see this atttitude in one of Obama's speeches in his first year in office BTW). The problem was that Tip O'Neill increased spending by nearly twice as much as Reagan took in. Bush the Younger spent far more than he should have but his restoration of Reagan-level tax rates increased tax revenues collected and stabilized a national economy rocked by indecision after the 9/11 terrorist attacks. The problem was it didn't hold a candle to what Pelosi and Reid conspired to spend after winning control in 2006.
Glad I'm not on whatever it is nynco is ingesting ... I probably wouldn't be allowed to drive my car to work if I was.
spqrzilla
11-14-2012, 19:42
When you got nothing this is all you can do in reply. Just too stuborn to admit that I am right.
I've refuted many of your brazenly false claims. You've wandered off to just make up more fabrications and abandon the ones that were shown to be false.
I got bored with the predictability of your many false statements.
Sure... all you did was double down on the usual BS. I gave you a rebuttle but you ignored it when it did not fit your bias. If you think it was Reid and Pelosi that caused a crash whos roots go back a decade before that, that makes you blind.
You want to understand why Reagan was a bad turn for the nation read up. Follow the facts if you can.
http://www.zompist.com/liberalism.html
First thing to that is ANYONE can bring in more revenue if they cut taxes and increase spending. But all that increase in revenue was nothing compared to the debt that Reagan left. Whoooo hoooo we got a credit card. That slight bump in revenue was because no one cut spending to reflect the loss in income to the gov. Which.. means it failed in the end.
Funny how facts seem to have a liberal bias... and Romneys own staff admitted they have no use for fact checkers. Then there is the fact that Faux news fought and won for the right to lie. Yes that is right back in the early 2000s, Faux went to court to prove they had the right to lie.... and some right wing psycho said yep they have the right to lie. Sorry but that is just plain insane and the worst part is you guys still believe them.
http://youtu.be/jDKLFn0pty4
Watch and learn about Faux. If your ADD kicks in start at 230
I have a custom built AR. Which I need to change out my trigger for a better unit. Most likely an SSA. I left NY when I joined the military and rarely return. I won't move anywhere where I lose my right to bear arms.
Sure... all you did was double down on the usual BS. I gave you a rebuttle but you ignored it when it did not fit your bias. If you think it was Reid and Pelosi that caused a crash whos roots go back a decade before that, that makes you blind.
You want to understand why Reagan was a bad turn for the nation read up. Follow the facts if you can.
http://www.zompist.com/liberalism.html
First thing to that is ANYONE can bring in more revenue if they cut taxes and increase spending. But all that increase in revenue was nothing compared to the debt that Reagan left. Whoooo hoooo we got a credit card. That slight bump in revenue was because no one cut spending to reflect the loss in income to the gov. Which.. means it failed in the end.
What the hell are you talking about? First, have you heard of proof reading? Reagan cut taxes, got spending under control and brought the country to the point where Clinton could ride on the coattails and have a surplus. But you're a liberal, so you'll stick with that same ludicrous story all libtards spew: Reagan's economic policy is why we're here! Wrong again, slick, it seems only democrats who know very little about Reaganomics, let alone economics in general are the ones who spout that flat out false crap. I invite you to ask a real, reputable economist about Reagan's economic policies. I'll help you out, my neighbor's daughter is a democrat and teaches economics at a state college in VA and used to work at the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, and she says "Reagan's economic policies led to the largest peacetime economic growth in U.S. History. But you're a liberal, so I expect you to deny that vehemetly.
ChunkyMonkey
11-15-2012, 12:29
A living hell? Are you kidding me. ALL the increases in earnings over the last few decades went to them. You got NOTHIN and you want to worry about them? They are not job creators, they are job horders. They offshored this nation for their personal gain. The people who are job creators are YOU and I. Our DEMAND drives the economy and when we don't have money to buy jack shit the economy goes tits up..... Like NOW
Let's assume for a sec that you are correct. I am taking extreme measure to layoff my employees to keep my roster under 25. Furthermore, I have to raise prices to cover with the cost obama care. This one bill alone has been my living hell. If you are truly an employer, you should know how hard it is to let someone w/ family and mortgage off payroll just to maintain not even a cent profit, but simply to break event. In case you haven't notice recession has been going on and now the largest tax increase is hitting the job providers. Both the spouse and I are about to cash out and semi retire.. in an island called singapore. As unpatriotic as that sounds, this is exactly what you, the liberals, are asking for. We might oblige.
ChunkyMonkey
11-15-2012, 12:31
http://youtu.be/jDKLFn0pty4
Watch and learn about Faux. If your ADD kicks in start at 230
LOL.. you are as bad as the fox news/ MSM watchers. RT news is nothing more than Russian's propaganda medium. In fact, Russia Today supports President Putin for life while ignoring the oppositions' view! Heck, Al Jazeera is more objective than RT.
Rucker61
11-15-2012, 14:47
Let's assume for a sec that you are correct. I am taking extreme measure to layoff my employees to keep my roster under 25. Furthermore, I have to raise prices to cover with the cost obama care. This one bill alone has been my living hell. If you are truly an employer, you should know how hard it is to let someone w/ family and mortgage off payroll just to maintain not even a cent profit, but simply to break event. In case you haven't notice recession has been going on and now the largest tax increase is hitting the job providers. Both the spouse and I are about to cash out and semi retire.. in an island called singapore. As unpatriotic as that sounds, this is exactly what you, the liberals, are asking for. We might oblige.
Where are you going to leave your guns?
ChunkyMonkey
11-15-2012, 14:52
Where are you going to leave your guns?
Just where they are right now. Haven't you gone on extended leave before?
...and so it begins:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/13/john-metz-hurricane-grill-wings-dennys_n_2122412.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular
I see many other businesses following suit...
Rucker61
11-15-2012, 15:04
Just where they are right now. Haven't you gone on extended leave before?
I haven't moved away to a locale that didn't allow gun ownership. Pack loose trousers - S'pore has incredible food.
ChunkyMonkey
11-15-2012, 15:18
I haven't moved away to a locale that didn't allow gun ownership. Pack loose trousers - S'pore has incredible food.
Silly Rucker. Loves his gun, yet supports the big incursive gov which btw has stated that AWB is coming. I fail to see anyone who loves the freedom of gun ownership can support the Dem.
Yes, I know food is great, I have a condo there and Jakarta. The top crime in singapore is 'retirement scam.' Last violence they had was some high school kids fighting on the new year eve. Everyone is so hard working yet docile - whatever they put in the drinking water works. In a way, it's like a version of the USA the liberal fantasizes about, although in fact, the best thing liberal ever produced is Detroit.
My father and his family side is spread out in the SE asia and as far north as Japan thanks to the exiling of kuomitang by the communist China. Funny how my folks are having flashbacks from the current US administration.
Rucker61
11-15-2012, 15:33
Silly Rucker. Loves his gun, yet supports the big incursive gov which btw has stated that AWB is coming. I fail to see anyone who loves the freedom of gun ownership can support the Dem.
I don't share the same fears as some that a new weapons ban is coming.
Yes, I know food is great, I have a condo there and Jakarta. The top crime in singapore is 'retirement scam.' Last violence they had was some high school kids fighting on the new year eve. Everyone is so hard working yet docile - whatever they put in the drinking water works. In a way, it's like a version of the USA the liberal fantasizes about, although in fact, the best thing liberal ever produced is Detroit.
It's just so crowded, but you can get anywhere from there.
My father and his family side is spread out in the SE asia and as far north as Japan thanks to the exiling of kuomitang by the communist China. Funny how my folks are having flashbacks from the current US administration.
Imagine my surprise when the KMT got back into power and immediately established the closest relations with the Chinese government that they've ever had. It's nice to have the direct flights to the mainland now.
dwalker460
11-15-2012, 15:40
...and so it begins:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/13/john-metz-hurricane-grill-wings-dennys_n_2122412.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular
I see many other businesses following suit...
Everyone in that video should be sterilized to prevent the possibility to offspring..
Great-Kazoo
11-15-2012, 15:41
I have a custom built AR. Which I need to change out my trigger for a better unit. Most likely an SSA. I left NY when I joined the military and rarely return. I won't move anywhere where I lose my right to bear arms.
Yet you voted for O ???
ChunkyMonkey
11-15-2012, 15:45
I don't share the same fears as some that a new weapons ban is coming.
It's just so crowded, but you can get anywhere from there.
Imagine my surprise when the KMT got back into power and immediately established the closest relations with the Chinese government that they've ever had. It's nice to have the direct flights to the mainland now.
Part being a responsible gun owner is awareness and preparedness. I don't share your optimism because AWB had happened in the past.
Singapore is not too crowded. They are still importing both non skilled worker and higher educated workers. They know how to insource jobs. Orchard road and tourist areas are always packed - Sentosa Island or the casinos are filled w/ Indians and Indonesians. Those places drive me crazy.
Finally, believe it or not, the chi-com learned a lot from Hong Kong's market. Nixon got one thing right, you open up Chinese market w/ Western goods, along come the culture and free minds. There are more business owners in mainland than anywhere else in the world. In the last decade, they are toying with privately own health clinic/system and other deregulations. While they are moving away from the true communism, the US is move away from the true free market system.
Rooskibar03
11-15-2012, 17:18
Company owner called a Heathcare related meeting on Tuesday. Anyone wanna bet this isn't gonna end well.
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