View Full Version : Instructor shoots AI
Mick-Boy
11-08-2012, 22:10
As some of you might have heard, a fairly well known instructor shot (what was supposed to be) a failure drill into one of his AIs down in TX over the weekend. Fortunately the AI will live (Two in the abdomen, one in the bicep).
That this happened is a tragedy and (to me) it highlights a few key points to take away.
1 - Target ID - Always, always, always know what you're shooting at. If you are behind the gun, every round that leaves that muzzle is your responsibility and you can never call them back. You better be ready to own them.
2 - Vet your instructor - If you're paying someone to teach you a skill, ensure the man has experience that is relevant. Taking a class from someone with experience, or reading a book isn't going to cut it. There are too many very experienced folks out there teaching reality based techniques now to waste time and money on a class with someone teaching pure theory.
3 - Safety should never be ignored - I've been carrying a gun in unwelcoming places for a minute or two. One of the fastest ways to mark yourself as unprofessional is to disregard basic weapons safety. Gunfights are dangerous enough without having someone on your side who leaves his finger on the trigger or sweeps teammates with his muzzle. Being able to perform basic gun handling safely is the mark of a professional. No one is too cool for Murphy... he'll always bite you in the ass eventually if you let him.
Stay safe and keep training boys and girls.
Wow, I'm trying to figure out how in the hell this happened. Not 1 AD but 3? I'll be interested to hear more about it.
I hadn't heard about this. I'm glad the AI is going to survive, and hopefully make a full recovery. Safety is non-negotiable. I guess it's fortunate that the failure drill was not entirely on target.
good reminder Mick...Murphy is always out there on the range, regardless what level we are running at. Safety is always the priority in this game.
SA Friday
11-08-2012, 22:30
How in the hell do you accidentally shoot someone during training three times with a pistol?
Couldn't find anything in the news.
USMC88-93
11-08-2012, 22:35
Link to or info? or more detailed info as to who it was?
Sharpienads
11-08-2012, 22:48
Am I the only one that doesn't know what AI stands for? Assistant Instructor maybe?
Link to or info? or more detailed info as to who it was?
I hate this whole fucking no one identifying who it was. I get there is an NDA/investigation regarding the specifics -- but it really feels like some others in the industry are trying to safeguard a certain Russian's reputation.
Am I the only one that doesn't know what AI stands for? Assistant Instructor maybe?
Thanks for asking. I didn't want to sound uninformed.
Sharpienads
11-08-2012, 22:57
Thanks for asking. I didn't want to sound uninformed.
No problem. I'm comfortable with asking (what is probably) a stupid question.
hghclsswhitetrsh
11-08-2012, 23:02
Haha I was gonna ask too. My weekly quota of dumb shit said/asked is filled already.
dwalker460
11-08-2012, 23:07
http://www.ennisdailynews.com/news/range-owner-shooting-victim-on-the-mend/
NightCat
11-08-2012, 23:12
Muzzle Awareness...Trigger Discipline...
nuffsaid.
My prayers are with the AI
Mick-Boy
11-08-2012, 23:14
I hate this whole fucking no one identifying who it was. I get there is an NDA/investigation regarding the specifics -- but it really feels like some others in the industry are trying to safeguard a certain Russian's reputation.
It has nothing to do with reputations.
I didn't name names because the lessons I wanted to highlight apply regardless of who was involved.
For those of you interested in the gossip side of it; CQB evolution, One AI and one student in the second room discussing previous target engagements. Sonny Puzikas enters first room engages targets (no lights). AI and student do not ID that they are there. Sonny goes into room two, knows where tagets are because he set it up, engages target with failure drill (AI is standing in front of target. Student kneeling). Two to abdomen, one to bicep. 18D on scene stabilizes AI. AI Will live.
Short story (lessons learned)- in the shoot house, low light, lost positive control of members inside house, no armor, no positive ID on shooters, no white lights on gun, no positive ID on target.
Soldier Systems post about the incident (http://soldiersystems.net/2012/11/08/cqb-training-lets-be-careful-out-there/)
patrick0685
11-08-2012, 23:16
still no answer to AI?
theGinsue
11-08-2012, 23:18
Yes, "AI" stands for Assistant Instructor.
dwalker460
11-08-2012, 23:19
Let me get this straight, a couple of guys are sitting talking in a room, while unknown to them an idiot actually moves into a kill house with a loaded weapon and you expected any other outcome than someone getting shot?
Huh...
Sounds like a long chain of bad decision making process.
Let me get this straight, a couple of guys are sitting talking in a room, while unknown to them an idiot actually moves into a kill house with a loaded weapon and you expected any other outcome than someone getting shot?
Huh...
Sounds like a long chain of bad decision making process.
You forgot the part about it being a low light/no light drill.
It has nothing to do with reputations.
I didn't name names because the lessons I wanted to highlight apply regardless of who was involved.
It wasn't you I was referring to. I heard about the accident Tuesday and in talking to some other names in the industry no one wanted to say who it was (but they all gossip like little girls). The post at SS and other places kept the Russian's name out of it and I felt (still do) like it was being hushed over.
To the larger point of the original post and story at hand:
My belief is that this is the ultimate teachable moment (I think we are in agreement here) and it should be dissected - after all if Sonny can fuck up, then we can ALL fuck up.
dwalker460
11-08-2012, 23:25
Your right- add another to the list of bad judgement.
It is not a fuck up to enter a dark/low light environment with a live weapon and engage two targets who have no idea your going to be there, its the ultimate stupidity. Ok, I get the need for realism, but there are non-lethal alternatives to using a hot weapon. And failure drill? Give me a break. As a professional instructor why do you need to practice a failure drill against live targets- meaning people- ?
Muzzle and trigger control? Are you kidding me? The lesson we need to take away from this is that training is no replacement for common fucking sense.
Sharpienads
11-09-2012, 00:08
Yes, "AI" stands for Assistant Instructor.
Thank you.
theGinsue
11-09-2012, 00:30
Sho 'Nuff.
spqrzilla
11-09-2012, 05:41
Lost control of personnel locations in a shoot house. That's a failure drill indeed.
This is why I ridicule all those fake operator school training videos with people downrange.
airborneranger
11-09-2012, 08:46
wow
That is about all I have say and HOLY SHIT
Snowman78
11-09-2012, 09:39
That is about all I have say and HOLY SHIT
Ya, Wow bad deal
Delfuego
11-09-2012, 09:42
Wow, I'm trying to figure out how in the hell this happened. Not 1 AD but 3? I'll be interested to hear more about it.
They're not accidental discharge, they are always NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE....
They're not accidental discharge, they are always NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE....
This. No such thing as an AD unless there's some sort of catastrophic and previously undocumented weapon failure. Otherwise everything is a an ND involving a human hand. Stop sugar coating shit.
One would think that there would be a protocol in place to ensure the shoot house was clear of friendlies before any live fire exercise began. Were they ignored or circumvented?
This. No such thing as an AD unless there's some sort of catastrophic and previously undocumented weapon failure. Otherwise everything is a an ND involving a human hand. Stop sugar coating shit.
Agreed. When I wrote AD I wasn't meaning to remove the blame from the shooter. He was negligent 100%.
jerrymrc
11-09-2012, 17:01
One would think that there would be a protocol in place to ensure the shoot house was clear of friendlies before any live fire exercise began. Were they ignored or circumvented?
Everyone should have been accounted for outside the place each time before someone entered with a loaded weapon. Since this is training the place should have been called out "Hot" before they moved in.
Almost sounds like there were two groups and one did not know what the other was doing.[Bang] http://excoboard.com/forums/26584/user/231465/308961.gif (http://excoboard.com/exco/smilies.php?boardid=26584#)
Mick-Boy
11-09-2012, 17:41
My belief is that this is the ultimate teachable moment (I think we are in agreement here) and it should be dissected - after all if Sonny can fuck up, then we can ALL fuck up.
Frankly I'm surprised it's taken this long for someone from the "throw the loaded AK downrange to show how reliable it is" crowd to accidentally shoot someone. That dude (and frankly, any soviet/eastern european SOF guys that I've been around) had no business teaching CQB.
Want to learn how to get the shit kicked out of you? Russian and Eastern European SOF guys have that down. Those are some hard, hard dudes.
Want to learn tactical and technical proficiency? Seek instruction from someone who served in a unit that emphasizes those traits.
Hence my point about vetting your instructor. Just because someone was a Marine/SEAL/SWAT/SF/Etc. doesn't mean they actually understand the concepts behind what they did. It sure as hell doesn't mean they should be teaching it.
Mick-Boy
11-09-2012, 17:45
One would think that there would be a protocol in place to ensure the shoot house was clear of friendlies before any live fire exercise began. Were they ignored or circumvented?
Jerrymrc is absolutely correct.
Live fire shoot house evolutions are an invaluable training tool. They also carry with them their own safety issues. There are ways to mitigate these issues (Jerrymrc covered the obvious) which were clearly being ignored in this instance.
CQB is not a flat range with walls and a roof. If you treat it that way, sooner or later someone is going to get hurt.
Want to learn how to get the shit kicked out of you? Russian and Eastern European SOF guys have that down. Those are some hard, hard dudes.
I've heard some CRAZY stories about how they used to train Spetsnaz soldiers. Shit that would get US instructors thrown in prison for life if they even went half that far in a training exercise: Setting the obstacle course on fire, locking troops in rooms with attack dogs, balancing armed grenades on troop's helmets. That is a whole new level of crazy.
dwalker460
11-09-2012, 20:01
Well lets not forget that the pistol jockey pulled the trigger three times and scored three hits on a live target. AND according to the above, he KNEW they were there as he set it up, so WTF was going through his mind that he lets three rounds off?
Well lets not forget that the pistol jockey pulled the trigger three times and scored three hits on a live target. AND according to the above, he KNEW they were there as he set it up, so WTF was going through his mind that he lets three rounds off?
RIF fail. Reread the post.
No excuse but let's keep the facts straight
dwalker460
11-09-2012, 20:25
I One AI and one student in the second room discussing previous target engagements. Sonny Puzikas enters first room engages targets (no lights). AI and student do not ID that they are there. Sonny goes into room two, knows where tagets are because he set it up, engages target with failure drill (AI is standing in front of target. Student kneeling). Two to abdomen, one to bicep. 18D on scene stabilizes AI. AI Will live.
Reading IS fundemental...
Did someone seriously just say anyone can make a mistake in regards to firearms? GTFO! This type of behavior is unacceptable with the topic of firearms.
Mick-Boy
11-09-2012, 20:42
Well lets not forget that the pistol jockey pulled the trigger three times and scored three hits on a live target. AND according to the above, he KNEW they were there as he set it up, so WTF was going through his mind that he lets three rounds off?
The shooter knew where the TARGETs were. He did not know the AI and student were in the house.
There are a dozen simple things that could have prevented this incident. At the very least propper target ID. (See point number one in my original post.)
Reading IS fundemental...
We're obviously not reading the same thing.
The shooter knew where the TARGETs were. He did not know the AI and student were in the house.
There are a dozen simple things that could have prevented this incident. At the very least propper target ID. (See point number one in my original post.)
Shooter setup the targets. Check.
Class runs drill. Check
Shooter exits. Check
AI + 1 stays. Check
Shooter re-enters and engages "targets" in the dark. Fail here
Shooter ND shoots AI standing in front of target. Check
Like Jerry said, headcount fail.
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