View Full Version : Selling private party is there a limit?
Can a guy in Colorado sell a collection of guns at once private party? I was told it might be illegal and just wanted to check before I sell the Wyoming arms collection.
Eggysrun
11-09-2012, 22:13
Yes
Yes it is illegal? Or yes I can sell a collection?
You can sell however many guns you want at a time to a private party.
Trust me, I'm a purple pony princess.
lpgasman
11-09-2012, 22:25
You can sell however many guns you want at a time to a private party.
Trust me, I'm a purple pony princess.
Now how can you argue with that?!
Can a guy in Colorado sell a collection of guns at once private party? I was told it might be illegal and just wanted to check before I sell the Wyoming arms collection.
I think what you might have heard is referring to people who sell so many guns, so often, that it appears that they are operating a business. Selling a collection should not be an issue for you.
Now how can you argue with that?!I guess you can't thanks guys.
You can sell however many guns you want at a time to a private party.
Trust me, I'm a purple pony princess.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! [UZI]
Zundfolge
11-10-2012, 00:19
As long as you aren't engaging in the business of selling firearms without an FFL there is no limit.
Often entire collections are sold at one time by widows and people down on their luck (and occasionally people that just lost interest in guns altogether).
JM Ver. 2.0
11-10-2012, 08:17
I think what you might have heard is referring to people who sell so many guns, so often, that it appears that they are operating a business. Selling a collection should not be an issue for you.
I've gotten that phone call before... [Coffee]
SouthPaw
11-10-2012, 09:59
I've gotten that phone call before...
Probably because there was a profit involved.
You can sell however many guns you want at a time to a private party.
Trust me, I'm a purple pony princess.
This worked out exactly how I planned [Muaha]
JM Ver. 2.0
11-10-2012, 14:29
Probably because there was a profit involved.
Wasn't a profit. I sold 24 guns in 2 days. Buddy's dad passed away.
kidicarus13
11-10-2012, 14:43
Wasn't a profit. I sold 24 guns in 2 days. Buddy's dad passed away.
And how did they know how/where to contact you? Someone turned you in.
JM Ver. 2.0
11-10-2012, 14:47
They probably just called the phone number I put in the ad....
Bailey Guns
11-10-2012, 14:58
Unless it's a gun show:
12-26.1-106. Definitions
(3) "Gun show" means the entire premises provided for an event or function, including but not limited to parking areas for the event or function, that is sponsored to facilitate, in whole or in part, the purchase, sale, offer for sale, or collection of firearms at which:
(a) twenty-five or more firearms are offered or exhibited for sale, transfer, or exchange; or
(b) not less than three gun show vendors exhibit, sell, offer for sale, transfer, or exchange firearms.
Not really sure how that works with private party sales. It's not really specific.
I think the only limitations on private FTF sales would be amount of cash available and hauling capacity of the vehicles involved. Can I help? My back's fucked up but I can hand over little things.....And I have a truck.....
Goodburbon
11-10-2012, 23:12
I was on another forum where the forum admins were contacted about the for sale post records of a member who seemed to do a lot of selling and trading. So there seems to be an arbitrary line in the sand that is left up to.the interpretation of the agents. It also.seems that they pay attention to the forums.
Colorado_Outback
11-11-2012, 00:00
It also.seems that they pay attention to the forums.
Its not just the ATF that watches the forums.. I had a thread that I created here brought up in some legal BS I was involved in.
Just remember, once you hit post its cashed on the internet forever.
donsignalli
11-11-2012, 00:00
What are you selling?
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Colorado_Outback
11-11-2012, 00:03
What are you selling?
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http://www.ar-15.co/threads/69879-My-Wyoming-arms-Parkers-SS-collection (http://www.ar-15.co/threads/69879-My-Wyoming-arms-Parkers-SS-collection)
As long as you aren't engaging in the business of selling firearms without an FFL there is no limit.
Often entire collections are sold at one time by widows and people down on their luck (and occasionally people that just lost interest in guns altogether).
The "limit" or legality come into question when you "make a profit" off the sales. I mentioned this before, but our class got to sit and ask a couple ATF people about the laws that we would run into dealing with the ATF. Private sales of course came up. You cannot make a profit, or, they can say that you are conducting business "if they want to be dicks about it" < (her words, not mine), and fine you. Also, a question that I asked that I found very... unsettling... if you piece together an AR 15 (personally) and then sell it for a profit, you have just committed two federal crimes. One, you sold for a profit without a license to sell firearms, and two, you manufactured a weapon for sale... I'm not making this shit up and we sat in person for about ten minutes so I could get clarity on this thinking that they had to be wrong... There was no loop hole that I could find..... Those are two rules that they can enforce and go either way with depending of if you have pissed them off. As they also said, the rules in their book are stated in a way that they have leway in how they make their decision on how to deal with you. There is no black and white with some of their rules, but a big grey area that they get to play in.
kidicarus13
11-11-2012, 13:07
The "limit" or legality come into question when you "make a profit" off the sales. I mentioned this before, but our class got to sit and ask a couple ATF people about the laws that we would run into dealing with the ATF. Private sales of course came up. You cannot make a profit, or, they can say that you are conducting business "if they want to be dicks about it" < (her words, not mine), and fine you. Also, a question that I asked that I found very... unsettling... if you piece together an AR 15 (personally) and then sell it for a profit, you have just committed two federal crimes. One, you sold for a profit without a license to sell firearms, and two, you manufactured a weapon for sale... I'm not making this shit up and we sat in person for about ten minutes so I could get clarity on this thinking that they had to be wrong... There was no loop hole that I could find..... Those are two rules that they can enforce and go either way with depending of if you have pissed them off. As they also said, the rules in their book are stated in a way that they have leway in how they make their decision on how to deal with you. There is no black and white with some of their rules, but a big grey area that they get to play in.
Good info, thanks for posting. For those ATF agents following this post... prove I built a gun and/or sold it for profit.
SideShow Bob
11-11-2012, 13:13
Good info, thanks for posting. For those ATF agents following this post... prove I built a gun and/or sold it for profit.
They don't have to prove you did, you have to prove you didn't...........
kidicarus13
11-11-2012, 13:28
They don't have to prove you did, you have to prove you didn't...........
In the United States?! That's not the same burden of proof legal system I learned about in 7th grade.
SideShow Bob
11-11-2012, 13:39
The ATF is almost as bad to deal with as the IRS, almost..........
Colorado_Outback
11-11-2012, 14:28
Also, a question that I asked that I found very... unsettling... if you piece together an AR 15 (personally) and then sell it for a profit, you have just committed two federal crimes. One, you sold for a profit without a license to sell firearms, and two, you manufactured a weapon for sale...
Unless you machined the lower you didn't manufacture a "weapon".
They might try and hit you for gunsmithing with out a license..
BlasterBob
11-11-2012, 16:28
Profit is a tough call. Say you bought a couple German Lugers back in the 1960's era for a total of $100 each. Would we now be expected to sell them for the $100 each just to make certain that we are of not selling for profit. If those same Lugers are sold at anywhere today's market, would that also perhaps be a big profit. We can come up with many many such scenarios and might have a difficult time finding two ATF agents who would interpret THEIR regulations the same way. I believe that if you are not doing a lot of REGULAR selling or if you are just getting rid of your collection or assembly of firearms, you won't have too much to be concerned about as long as you are selling/transferring and comply with ALL of the local Municipal, County and State regs. Just be damn sure of WHO you are selling to and make certain they are residents of the same State as the seller especially on FTF transfers.. IMHO
In the United States?! That's not the same burden of proof legal system I learned about in 7th grade.
they have all the money and lots of lawyers. right or wrong they will drag you through court until you run out of money or until they get you to give up. happened to a former member of this board, they still have all his guns including some class 3 and he has never been convicted of anything. great system huh.
Unless you machined the lower you didn't manufacture a "weapon".
They might try and hit you for gunsmithing with out a license..
Eh, wrong. Again, I sat with them and talked with them for quite a while. I bet you didn't know, it used to considered "manufacturing" a weapon if you just painted it, changed the appearance of it and then sold it. From a business point of view (AR's are special in these laws), I was told that if I bought a stripped lower, it had to be sold a a lower only without an upper. You could however sell the upper with the lower and let the customer put the gun together (not illegal). If you get audited, and they see a lower that you bought as just a lower, built up to a complete gun, they can fine you by saying that you are manufacturing a gun without a license with the intent to sell. I even asked about buying a pos base line RRA and putting better parts on it... If you change model types (carbine to rifle, gas to piston, carry handle to flat top ect), you are manufacturing. I'm not posting hearsay or opinion, I'm posting what I heard from the ATF agent's mouth first hand.
Also, you can make one gun from scratch a year for yourself as long as you don't sell it.
Profit is a tough call. Say you bought a couple German Lugers back in the 1960's era for a total of $100 each. Would we now be expected to sell them for the $100 each just to make certain that we are of not selling for profit. If those same Lugers are sold at anywhere today's market, would that also perhaps be a big profit. We can come up with many many such scenarios and might have a difficult time finding two ATF agents who would interpret THEIR regulations the same way. I believe that if you are not doing a lot of REGULAR selling or if you are just getting rid of your collection or assembly of firearms, you won't have too much to be concerned about as long as you are selling/transferring and comply with ALL of the local Municipal, County and State regs. Just be damn sure of WHO you are selling to and make certain they are residents of the same State as the seller especially on FTF transfers.. IMHO
I like to try out guns to so speak. I brought that up... If you sell anything for more than what you paid for it and just happen to get an agent at your door for some "legal" reason, you can get fined if they find that you sold weapons for a profit and "want to be dicks about it". This includes trading (I brought that up). I was told if you want to be safe, get a collectors license for $30. Of course this brings up more legal crap... What I got from their talking, was that they can go any way they want depending on how they feel like interpretating the law stated that they are going to use against you.
Man this thread is depressing me. I tried looking up anything counter to what you are saying spyder and I could not find anything. Well its a good thing that all my guns were destroyed in that tragic houseboat fire a while back.
kidicarus13
11-12-2012, 22:38
With all due respect... I asked a local police officer if they could ticket me for going 36mph in a 35mph zone and he told me they could if they wanted to. Then I asked him about going 37mph on a bicycle...
Let's apply some common sense to what we are talking about here people.
With all due respect... I asked a local police officer if they could ticket me for going 36mph in a 35mph zone and he told me they could if they wanted to. Then I asked him about going 37mph on a bicycle...
Let's apply some common sense to what we are talking about here people.
You can get a speeding ticket on a bike by the way.
Someone asked a question, and I gave an answer. I bet however that the people that have already been ticketed, fined or whatever, thought that what I had to say fell the in the realm of common sense. I just put the facts out there. You don't need to read or think about them if that's how you feel though.
I once asked a Lakewood officer if I could conceal carry in my car. She lectured me about how I needed to have the gun in a separate, locked, case in the trunk, separate from ammo or else "we'd have a problem." Came straight from her mouth.
As Kidicarus13 has pointed out, this stuff needs to be looked at in context. As with any interaction with law enforcement, of any kind, you need to measure the way in which the contact was initiated. Simply, most of this will depend on WHY you are having contact with the ATF.
I once asked a Lakewood officer if I could conceal carry in my car. She lectured me about how I needed to have the gun in a separate, locked, case in the trunk, separate from ammo or else "we'd have a problem." Came straight from her mouth.
As Kidicarus13 has pointed out, this stuff needs to be looked at in context. As with any interaction with law enforcement, of any kind, you need to measure the way in which the contact was initiated. Simply, most of this will depend on WHY you are having contact with the ATF.
Sounds like she was a local police officers from CA previosuly.
BlasterBob
11-13-2012, 11:28
If you sell anything for more than what you paid for it and just happen to get an agent at your door for some "legal" reason, you can get fined if they find that you sold weapons for a profit and "want to be dicks about it". This includes trading (I brought that up).
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Sold for more than what you paid for it? How about my example above where a guy buys a Luger many MANY years ago for $100. Is he expected to sell it for just what he paid for it and not the going rate just to avoid making a "profit" on the sale of it?
Also, buy another firearm for $200 and use it for a short while and since it did not perform as we expected, decide to get rid of it. When this particular $200 firearm was purchased, it took an additional $75 in fuel to go pick up the firearm, another $10 admission to get into the gun show to get it, pay another $10 for the background check Total spent was $295. You actually paid $200 for the firearm itself. Do you think the ATF would insist that ANYTHING over the price of the $200 actually paid for the firearm itself would be considered as "profit". I guess it would probably be depending on the mood the ATF Agent is in when hearing the facts to determine if there WAS actual profit involved.
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Sold for more than what you paid for it? How about my example above where a guy buys a Luger many MANY years ago for $100. Is he expected to sell it for just what he paid for it and not the going rate just to avoid making a "profit" on the sale of it?
Also, buy another firearm for $200 and use it for a short while and since it did not perform as we expected, decide to get rid of it. When this particular $200 firearm was purchased, it took an additional $75 in fuel to go pick up the firearm, another $10 admission to get into the gun show to get it, pay another $10 for the background check Total spent was $295. You actually paid $200 for the firearm itself. Do you think the ATF would insist that ANYTHING over the price of the $200 actually paid for the firearm itself would be considered as "profit". I guess it would probably be depending on the mood the ATF Agent is in when hearing the facts to determine if there WAS actual profit involved.
I let them know how I felt about it. I think what they can get away with based on how they "feel" like handling the moment was a bunch of shit. I didn't quite word it like that though... Both of the women just said it's better to be nice to your agent....
BlasterBob
11-14-2012, 09:48
Back many years ago, when I had a FFL 01, I had frequent inspection visits by the ATF folks, both men and women. My records were ALWAYS complete and accurate and they never had any problems with them. Those agents, back in those days, were exceptionally friendly and courteous. Have no idea what they are like now and do not want to cross paths with any of em.....
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