WTS/T: PTR-91 (HK-91 clone) and HK USPc .45 [Archive] - Colorado AR-15 Shooters Club Discussion Forums

View Full Version : WTS/T: PTR-91 (HK-91 clone) and HK USPc .45

Trempel

11-28-2007, 12:10

PTR-91 rifle is SPF. .308 Caliber, 18" Heavy barrel with a birdcage flash-hider. Green furniture with a fixed stock. I have about 300 rounds through it, all of which were flawless. Standard metal lower. Fantastic rifle, but I'm looking for something else. This will come with 10 surplus 20-round aluminum HK mags. TWO Meeellion Hrivnas FTF, and only to current LE, military or CCW, with blood test, urine test, psychiatric evaluation, CIA/FBI/Interpol/Trilateral Commission background checks, SAT scores no less that 1200 and a note from your mom. :D Otherwise $1025 shipped to 01 FFL.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/trempel/P1010012.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/trempel/P1010015.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/trempel/P1010016.jpg

USP Compact in .45 ACP. One range trip, 200 malfunction-free rounds after which it was cleaned and put in a safe. I just don't like it as much as I thought I would and need room in the safe.

Comes with two mags and all the stuff/paperwork that was in the box. FTF - One Meeeellion Dollars in south Metro Denver area, and only to current LE, military or CCW with blood test, urine test, psychiatric evaluation, CIA/FBI/Interpol/Trilateral Commission background checks, SAT scores no less that 1200 and a note from your mom. ;) Otherwise, $700 shipped to a 01 FFL.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/trempel/P1010019.jpg

Possible trades considered - M1 Carbines (USGI only), M1A/M14 rifles, EOtechs, Aimpoints, AR rifles and parts (16" and 20" government profile uppers, no HBARS). Not really looking for pistols, but might consider a .45 P220 without a rail.

wolfpack_one

11-29-2007, 00:21

"only to current LE, military or CCW"

Now that you've eliminated/insulted most of your potential buyers...

twitchyfinger

11-29-2007, 00:47

No kidding, I even have a CCW and I was insulted!

westy1970

11-29-2007, 02:35

It looks like he is trying to cover his butt when Hilary come looking for his guns.

Delphi

11-29-2007, 04:05

ermmnn ya.... I'm thinking it's still legal to sell FTF

USMC88-93

11-29-2007, 06:31

Thanks I needed a good laugh.

thedave1164

11-29-2007, 07:32

Where are all of these idiots coming from?

BadShot

11-29-2007, 09:20

Kalifornia and Arizona

PhL0aTeR

11-29-2007, 10:03

ermmnn ya.... I'm thinking it's still legal to sell FTF

Yeah.... theres a few of these types out there... they are calling it "CYA"...... whatever....ol

Trempel

11-29-2007, 10:20

thedave1164

11-29-2007, 10:30

PhL0aTeR

11-29-2007, 10:37

Doubt you'll be doing much selling around here.

lol..... ill tend to agree....

but here is another post from someone requiring ccw or cbi: http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=18037

wolfpack_one

11-29-2007, 10:37

PhL0aTeR

11-29-2007, 10:53

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but this forum is for EVERYBODY. If you want to discriminate against most of the people on this forum why are you here? There are forums for police and military only. Why don't you go there and tell them how regular Americans on this website are not good enough to sell to...
BTW Your ad is "crapping" on this website and most of the people on it.

all that being said, i dont blame him for being so cautious with this sue happy state we live in.... ive been in texas for a week and a half and i havent seen ONE "call me first to sue someone" commercial.... lol

scenario #1 - guy sells gun to felon with no cbi, felon shoots up the town hall, admits to buying gun from guy, now guy is sued by victims families....

just playing devils advocate...... i dont mind a FTF transfer.... thats how i sold all my guns, and bought some of them.... but its getting bad.... if the above scenario hasnt happened yet, ill bet it will soon.

Trempel

11-29-2007, 10:57

Fine, you wanna talk, let's talk.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but this forum is for EVERYBODY. If you want to discriminate against most of the people on this forum why are you here? There are forums for police and military only. Why don't you go there and tell them how regular Americans on this website are not good enough to sell to...
BTW Your ad is "crapping" on this website and most of the people on it.
CO is a "shall issue" CCW state, so anyone without a serious criminal record can get one. I sure hope that majority of people on this site have their permits.

Back to the point of so called "discrimination". I've sold guns FTF, but mostly to close friends or relatives. Everyone else, I don't know from Adam. Last year I was selling a .22 pistol online (not on this site) and some guy agreed very quickly, without even haggling over the price. When we met to do FTF, the guy didn't even want to show me his DL or sign a very simple bill of sale. He acted strangely and I told him that I wasn't comfortable selling him the pistol and hightailed it out of there. I don't know if the guy was just paranoid or a convicted felon, but I made a decision not to sell FTF without at least some kind of personal assurance that the other guy is not prohibited by law to own guns. I don't take people's fingerprints, I don't make them demonstrate their proficiency with a firearm and I don't ask them to submit to a drug test. I fully support the right to sell guns FTF, without any background checks, but the conditions for my sales are for personal reasons and are not outrageous, IMO. If you're a regular Joe, without a CCW, I know a dealer that will do a transfer for a minimal fee. Otherwise, you can go and buy a gun somewhere else.

thedave1164

11-29-2007, 10:58

Funny thing is on his ad in another forum, he has a link

www.2aforum.com

7idl

11-29-2007, 11:00

ok, who here doesn't have a CCW ?

and if not, WHY?

think of the money you can save ;)

(although, I think having a CCW could have the opposite effect)

libertyordeath

11-29-2007, 11:08

All of you sensitive types can save the drama for your mama. I don't think I have to explain the terms of my sale to anyone. If I want a buyer to be able to juggle bowling pins behind his back in order to buy a friggin' picture frame from me, then it's no one else's business. You got a problem with it, go and start a thread in another forum, instead of crapping all over someone's ad.

You're absolutely correct Trempel. You're totally free to sell on your terms. (I do love free markets!) It's seller's prerogative, right? However, the majority of members to this forum have a certain general mentality (freedom, liberty, limited government, the Constitution, you know, basic stuff). And if you want to try to sell to me, you'll have more success if you share that mentality (buyer's prerogative). Look at it this way, if you you were going to sell granola up in The People's Republic of Boulder, would you try to sell anything other than organic, carbon-neutral, gluten-free granola that was bagged by some hippie standing in a yoga pose? Of course not. Don't take offense to the comments, just consider your audience. Cheers.

Trempel

11-29-2007, 11:17

However, the majority of members to this forum have a certain general mentality (freedom, liberty, limited government, the Constitution, you know, basic stuff)
I ain't the government and I'm not here to infringe on anyone's freedom, liberty or Constitutional rights. You wanna buy a gun? I'm not stopping you. People here are so up in arms about me asking for a LE/Mil ID or CCW permit, like they've never filled out a 4473 and submitted to a crim history check in a gun store.

BTW, "basic stuff", is also things like manners and tact. For example, refraining from turning a sales ad into a discussion arena.

Trempel

11-29-2007, 11:27

Funny thing is on his ad in another forum, he has a link

www.2aforum.com
Enlighten me. What's so funny about it?

thedave1164

11-29-2007, 11:29

How in the heck would you even know if an LE id or CCW permit was even real?

They are different in Colorado depending on where they are issued.

Stop acting like you are a supporter of anything other than your own agenda.

thedave1164

11-29-2007, 11:31

Enlighten me. What's so funny about it?

What you are "requiring" is so against the 2nd Amendment.

I find that ironic.

Trempel

11-29-2007, 11:37

Stop acting like you are a supporter of anything other than your own agenda.
Of course it's my own agenda. Who else's would it be? I don't think that I need to apologize to anyone, because I want to provide myself with an extra measure to comfort, as false as you think it may be.

Trempel

11-29-2007, 11:46

What you are "requiring" is so against the 2nd Amendment.

I find that ironic.
... Don't you think?

How do my personal terms of sale have any impact on the 2A? Maybe you missed it the first time, but I'll repeat just for you - I'm not the government and I can do what I want. In no way do my personal conditions infringe on anyone's right to own, purchase, carry firearms or use them in self defense. Maybe I should also add "reading comprehension" to the already extensive list of requirements? Or a small two-page essay that a buyer would have to write.

"Why I think Trempel is singlehandedly destroying Mah Rights!"
by thedave1164 ;)

PhL0aTeR

11-29-2007, 11:48

ok, who here doesn't have a CCW ?

and if not, WHY?

think of the money you can save ;)

(although, I think having a CCW could have the opposite effect)

I dont..... well not in CO anyways, i had one in texas, but let it expire thinking i wouldnt have a problem in CO.

I have something on my record that prohibits me from purchasing a firearm or obtaining a CCW in CO, although i have no problems in texas, and i held a security clearance. Tell me whats wrong with that picture?

thedave1164

11-29-2007, 11:55

... Don't you think?

How do my personal terms of sale have any impact on the 2A? Maybe you missed it the first time, but I'll repeat just for you - I'm not the government and I can do what I want. In no way do my personal conditions infringe on anyone's right to own, purchase, carry firearms or use them in self defense. Maybe I should also add "reading comprehension" to the already extensive list of requirements? Or a small two-page essay that a buyer would have to write.

"Why I think Trempel is singlehandedly destroying Mah Rights!"
by thedave1164 ;)

Typical elitist drival.

It doesn't suprise me that you don't see the irony. Sorry, I am not an artist, so no cartoons will be drawn to explain it to you.

Trempel

11-29-2007, 12:06

Typical elitist drival.

It doesn't suprise me that you don't see the irony. Sorry, I am not an artist, so no cartoons will be drawn to explain it to you.

e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism

NOUN:

1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
2.
1. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
2. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.

So, because I want to cover my ass, I'm now a "member of a certain class with perceived superiority"? Does not compute. BTW, "Dave", my nick is the same on all forums. How about you let me know who you are on 2AF? Because only members can even see the Classifieds over there, but strangely I don't remember "thedave1164" ever posting there.

thedave1164

11-29-2007, 13:29

So, because I want to cover my ass, I'm now a "member of a certain class with perceived superiority"? Does not compute. BTW, "Dave", my nick is the same on all forums. How about you let me know who you are on 2AF? Because only members can even see the Classifieds over there, but strangely I don't remember "thedave1164" ever posting there.

I have the same nick on all the forums I am on. I don't hide behind different usernames, and I am not a member of that forum.

I saw you ad posted on another forum where you have the link in your signature.

Look, I don't really care what you do or don't do. I won't be buying your guns, and you wouldn't sell to me if I wanted too.

As to the 2nd Amendment issue, the Brady check is unconstitutional, and you using the system to CYA is continuing to promote it.

Maybe through all this banter you might see the light. It is really simple, either you believe in "shall not infringe" or you don't.

I would prefer to not ask if someone is a convicted felon, they should be behind bars or in a grave. It should not matter where someone lives, they should not have their rights infringed upon by some imaginary line on a map.

I only go as far as I have to, to stay legal within the confines of the law as it stands now. I also work to try and change the law.

As to a CCW, I had one in the past, I do not now, and am not sure that I ever will again. In getting a "permit" you are acknowledging that you have permission to do something that is normally illegal.

BTW you can be in the military and have a conviction of domestic violence, and even some LEO's have been as well.

Everybody has an opinion and those are mine. IMO you are opening yourself up even wider for a lawsuit the more you do to CYA, I can hear the lawyer now "Trempel knew he could be selling to the wrong person, the fear shows in his efforts going beyond the what the law required, yet he didn't go far enough. This PTSD troubled soldier purchased this weapon of death and immediately went and killed his entire platoon while they lay sleeping, and all he wanted was to see his ID card...."

Good luck on your sale.

Trempel

11-29-2007, 14:06

I have the same nick on all the forums I am on. I don't hide behind different usernames, and I am not a member of that forum.

I saw you ad posted on another forum where you have the link in your signature.
Ah, I got it.

Look, I don't really care what you do or don't do. I won't be buying your guns, and you wouldn't sell to me if I wanted too.
If you don't care about what I do or don't do, you are surely quite vocal about it.

As to the 2nd Amendment issue, the Brady check is unconstitutional, and you using the system to CYA is continuing to promote it.
I'm not promoting anything and I don't care about a Brady check. I would still try to verify the buyer somehow even if there were no Brady checks in existence. Before I even posted my ad, I understood that not all people might like it. Some that don't have CCW might not want the hassle to go through an FFL and pay extra money for a transfer. Just like it's my personal choice to impose these conditions, it's theirs not to buy any of my stuff.

Maybe through all this banter you might see the light. It is really simple, either you believe in "shall not infringe" or you don't.
Again, please explain how I'm infringing on anything. Someone doesn't like my conditions, they move on and buy from someone else. It's not like I have an obligation to sell to anyone.
Example: A person is loopy in the head and unsafe with firearms, although not certifiable and without a criminal past. I know this from personal experience. They know I have a gun to sell and come to me with cash in hand. Am I somehow obligated to take their money and hand them over a gun? Like the guy who wanted my .22. I wouldn't be breaking any laws, to my knowledge if I took the cash and handed him the pistol, but he was too weird for my taste. I don't need the money that bad.

I would prefer to not ask if someone is a convicted felon, they should be behind bars or in a grave. It should not matter where someone lives, they should not have their rights infringed upon by some imaginary line on a map.

I only go as far as I have to, to stay legal within the confines of the law as it stands now. I also work to try and change the law.
So if you had reason to believe, but weren't sure that a buyer of your gun was previously convicted of a serious crime, you'd still sell to them, because legally the burden of proof is not on you? A guy shows up with gang tats all over and you'd sell to him because you don't care to know? How is that being a responsible gun owner?

And I'm not sure how the location is pertinent to this discussion, but I agree, in theory. I'm opposed to bans on "AWs" and standard-cap mags in lib states. It still doesn't mean that I will break any laws selling such things to people there.

As to a CCW, I had one in the past, I do not now, and am not sure that I ever will again. In getting a "permit" you are acknowledging that you have permission to do something that is normally illegal.
Such is life. You're free to chose.

BTW you can be in the military and have a conviction of domestic violence, and even some LEO's have been as well.
Yes, but it means that they're not prohibited from contact with a firearm.

Everybody has an opinion and those are mine. IMO you are opening yourself up even wider for a lawsuit the more you do to CYA, I can hear the lawyer now "Trempel knew he could be selling to the wrong person, the fear shows in his efforts going beyond the what the law required, yet he didn't go far enough. This PTSD troubled soldier purchased this weapon of death and immediately went and killed his entire platoon while they lay sleeping, and all he wanted was to see his ID card...."
This is America. Anyone can be sued for anything, at any time. I'm not trying to read people's minds or predict the future. I just want some measure of comfort in knowing that I won't be the one who puts a weapon into the hands of a convicted violent felon.

Good luck on your sale.[/QUOTE]

7idl

11-29-2007, 14:20

this thread is way off track.. I've moved it to GD as that 's basicly what it has become.

everyone can continue the discussion here at their own leisure.

keep the sales forum for just that, sales.

wolfpack_one

11-29-2007, 18:24

If you are scared to sell to your fellow Americans (and apparently gang members) on this board, why don't you put your pieces on consignment??

That is the p.c. thing to do.

westy1970

11-29-2007, 19:20

Wow. BTW, how do I know that you are not a felon trying to buy my gun? I guess I can take your word for it. You seem like a nice person.

Atrain

11-29-2007, 21:17

[Train]

wolfpack_one

11-29-2007, 21:25

Wow. BTW, how do I know that you are not a felon trying to buy my gun? I guess I can take your word for it. You seem like a nice person.

Yes, you can LEGALLY take a person's word for it...

Well, I wasn't talking to you Westy. But since you have something to say... Can you explain why your signature line quote doesn't completely contradict your response?? Franklin was an amazing man, he was. What do you think our Forefathers would think when we are scared to deal on a handshake?

I have yet to meet anyone from this board who deserves LIBERAL paranoid scrutiny. No tattoed gang members (though I'm not sure what tattoes have to do with criminality). Just fellow enthusiasts who have an interest that is under assault. Just don't know why the LIBERAL assault is encroaching it's ugliness into a forum for regular American gun owners..

BTW Don't know who added the extra qualifications for the original ad in this thread, but that was funny!!!

wolfpack_one

11-29-2007, 21:38

pickenup

11-29-2007, 22:02

FTF, and only to current LE, military or CCW, with blood test, urine test, psychiatric evaluation, CIA/FBI/Interpol/Trilateral Commission background checks, SAT scores no less that 1200 and a note from your mom.

I have seen sellers require the buyer to sign a bill of sale, and copy info from drivers license, but THIS IS A FIRST.

LE, military or CCW? MOST of the people I know wouldn't pass this one.
Blood and urine test? I have never submitted to one of these in my LIFE.
Psych eval? No need for this, everyone KNOWS I'm nuts.
I would not live long enough for all these places to return a background check.
SAT score? Would a first grade report card work?
But this one is the clincher, it is NOT POSSIBLE to get a note from mom, so I guess it's off to the gun show this weekend, to try to find my HK.

car-15

11-29-2007, 22:32

I have seen sellers require the buyer to sign a bill of sale, and copy info from drivers license, but THIS IS A FIRST.

LE, military or CCW? MOST of the people I know wouldn't pass this one.
Blood and urine test? I have never submitted to one of these in my LIFE.
Psych eval? No need for this, everyone KNOWS I'm nuts.
I would not live long enough for all these places to return a background check.
SAT score? Would a first grade report card work?
But this one is the clincher, it is NOT POSSIBLE to get a note from mom, so I guess it's off to the gun show this weekend, to try to find my HK.
your going to a gun show to buy a gun? I thought they only sold crafts, and jerkey at them things. or at least that is all they have at the shows I go to around here[Flower].

11-29-2007, 22:43

This thread is too much without me adding my two cents!

If the seller wants to add "pass a CBI check", that is their prerogative, and as a minority have stated, it IS a way to cover one's arse. Nothing illegal about it, and if the buyer has nothing to hide, WTF is the difference? It gives both parties an easy feeling: the seller knows he isn't selling to a felon ,etc, and the buyer knows he isn't buying a stolen weapon. Don't want to go through with the check, don't buy the friggin' thing.

However, selling a totally legal weapon to only LE/Military/CCW holders, as in this case, is asinine.

Ah Pook

11-29-2007, 22:44

Here is another.
http://www.colorado4x4.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=110948

Trempel,

Personally, I think the terms of sale are odd. It's your sale and your perogative. You mentioned the .22 sale example. I would not have sold to him either. If I don't see a DL, then no sale. Signing a bill of sale is not out of line either. LE/MIL id? CCW? If I'm going through a background check, I'll go to a gun shop to begin with. I guess I'm missing the reason for the extra obstacles.

So, good luck with that.

Trempel

11-30-2007, 00:26

PRICELESS!!
Finally. I began to wonder if anyone was going to notice. :D

Trempel

11-30-2007, 00:31

Gman

11-30-2007, 02:07

Personally, I really don't want to see firearms for sale threads in the general discussion forum.

...no matter how convoluted and idiotic they become.

Trempel

11-30-2007, 02:18

Don't blame me. Personally, I didn't want to see my ad turning into a debate in any forum, but here we are.

mightymouse

11-30-2007, 04:34

Here's something no one is mentioning.

Number one rising crime in the US? Identity Theft.

Most cases aren't from hacked databases or any high tech designs. They're good old fashioned legwork, trash sifting, mail theft, social engineering, etc.

I don't like giving my personal information to some guy in a parking lot while we dicker over a firearm, call me crazy.

Delphi

11-30-2007, 05:24

Aye or what about us guys worryed bout the goverment coming knocking on the door trying to steel our guns?

Going through a CBI, or giving somone all my information, I may as well buy the gun from the store...

#1 reason to do FTF is get somthing thats off the books that you can bury in you back yard incase the gov comes knocking

And now i'm sure somones gonna ask, "oo you'd break the law if guns were made illegal?"

Well it is our obligation as US citizens to rise up and fight opression if the US constitution is breached. It's actually law :)

wolfpack_one

11-30-2007, 06:09

A couple more voices of reason. Thank you...

Seems to me that we better exercise every freedom we have left. The RIGHT to private purchases is one of them. Who would want to voluntarily "submit" to needless and extralegal scrutiny?? Submissive people obviously...

tsr

11-30-2007, 10:59

Trempel, did you live in CA? I used to know someone there who used the same handle.

Trempel

11-30-2007, 13:31

Yep. I must be the same guy then. From calguns?

tsr

11-30-2007, 15:58

Yeah...

What I meant to say, you're in a wrong place with attitude like that. And I do mean state-wise.

wolfpack_one

11-30-2007, 16:51

Yep. I must be the same guy then. From calguns?

Programming.... complete.
We must now send them out to spread the word!

Ever heard about the SKS sporters, which were legally purchased, registration forced, and then confiscated from law-abiding citizens in.... California?? I guess if you have the buyer's info, you can send the authorities to their house... Nice.

I don't have a problem with people from California, as long as they check the LIBERAL B.S. at the door on their way in. You're in America now..

tsr

11-30-2007, 17:34

I don't have a problem with people from California, as long as they check the LIBERAL B.S. at the door on their way in. You're in America now..

Yeah, good luck with that one...

In this case it ain't liberal BS, but it is BS, alright. I could understand if it were a joke, and at first I thought so, until I saw the rest of the "discussion".

Trempel, and instead of letting your insecurities go wild and getting all defensive, better listen to what people are saying. I am glad to see you made it out of kalifawnia, but why bring all that crap over here?

Trempel

11-30-2007, 18:18

Excuse me? What crap?! FTF sales are completely illegal in CA, save fro C&R guns. I already explained why I don't feel comfortable doing FTF without a small measure of assurance that the other guy is GTG. I don't make people sign anything or bring me a copy of anything. I don't note down anyone's name in a book.

All of a sudden I'm "Diane Feinstein", coming to take everyone's rights away? You are confused. I don't give a rats tail how you buy your guns. If you cover your face with a bandana and pay cash to some guy named Tiny on Colfax, that's your personal problem. I'm not stopping you. And again, for those with learning disabilities - as long as I stay within the law, I have a right to sell my personal property as I see fit, and to whom I see fit, without consulting anyone, period. Those of you that extol virtues of personal liberty and freedom seem to the the ones that have the hardest time understanding the concept.

More than a few people I know that haven't even been to any liberal state, don't sell FTF, period. It's either through a dealer, where your name goes through CBI, and stays on 4473, etc., or nothing. Exceptions being close family and friends. Maybe you feel that even showing a CDL, to ascertain the persons legal age or status as a CO resident is also too much? You people (yeah, I said it) sound exactly like the MSM makes gun owners out to be.

What I meant to say, you're in a wrong place with attitude like that. And I do mean state-wise.
Yeah, YOU I forgot to ask. Should I tell you where you belong with your attitude, or can you take a wild guess?

tsr

11-30-2007, 18:42

Couldn't be any more clearer. Thanks.