5.56 VMax ACTUAL BALLISTICS GEL penetration?

[josh7328]

After searching the internet the only thing that I can find about 5.56 VMax penetration is "too shallow" "Won't go through heavy clothing" This and that, yet NOBODY can provide any actual numbers from calibrated gel. My father has been using Vmax on deer with excellent results, and I've personally shot it through some decently thick mild steel. It's so frustrating when people just regurgitate internet "facts" without backing them up. Does anybody have some actual numbers for the Vmax?

[Great-Kazoo]

http://www.223reloads.com/home/223-5-56-info/223-tests-performance/223-ballistics-effectiveness---pt1-of-2

http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=5.56+VMax+ACTUAL+BALLISTICS+G EL&oq=5.56+VMax+ACTUAL+BALLISTICS+GEL&gs_l=youtube-reduced.12...4814.24435.0.25567.3.3.0.0.0.0.44.81. 2.2.0...0.0...1ac.2j1.HC-_Btl9tws

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCqmclsRQmM

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=168133


This is only the first 10 sec of searching.

FWIW: I was going to use the V-max bullets then decided to utilize the hornady 55gr SP #2265
http://www.hornady.com/store/22-Cal-.224-55-gr-SP

[josh7328]

http://www.223reloads.com/home/223-5-56-info/223-tests-performance/223-ballistics-effectiveness---pt1-of-2

http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=5.56+VMax+ACTUAL+BALLISTICS+G EL&oq=5.56+VMax+ACTUAL+BALLISTICS+GEL&gs_l=youtube-reduced.12...4814.24435.0.25567.3.3.0.0.0.0.44.81. 2.2.0...0.0...1ac.2j1.HC-_Btl9tws

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCqmclsRQmM

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=168133


This is only the first 10 sec of searching.

FWIW: I was going to use the V0max bullets then decided to utilize the hornady 55gr SP #2265
http://www.hornady.com/store/22-Cal-.224-55-gr-SP

Dang... I must have been searching with all the wrong keywords. Thanks.

[Zombie Steve]

I think that Youtube video tells the story pretty well. It's a varmint bullet. Not much penetration, and the bullet comes apart almost instantly.That's what varmint bullets do. Keep in mind, that was 210 yards with a 24" barrel. It's going to lose a lot of steam from a 16" barrel AR (don't know what you're shooting). I didn't see a V-max load in the 5.56mm category on the Hornady site, but the bullet is loaded in a lot of their .223. Probably academic, but the heaviest one I saw was the 55 grain. Might penetrate a little better. If it's working for you and your dad on deer, good deal (thought .243 was the minimum diameter bullet in CO). For hunting medium or big game, I just prefer something with a little more robust construction that's going to retain weight and penetrate.

[josh7328]

yeah, I think .243 is minimum for deer in CO. He hunts and lives in Texas. I think the .243 thing might be true there as well, but I'm not sure. Either way, he is using a 6.8 Vmax for deer, and has used 5.56 Vmax on hogs with good results. I'm just trying to determine if it is a good apartment defense load or not. 16" gas AR.

[Colorado_Outback]

I'm just trying to determine if it is a good apartment defense load or not. 16" gas AR.
Personally I wouldn't use any center fire rifle for self defense in an apartment, regardless of load.
12ga loaded with #8's FTW.

[spittoon]

Personally I wouldn't use any center fire rifle for self defense in an apartment, regardless of load.
12ga loaded with #8's FTW.

x2 ftw

[ray1970]

Anyone who uses bird shot to defend their lives and the lives of their family is an idiot.

Sorry if this statement offends you.

[kidicarus13]

Anyone who uses bird shot to defend their lives and the lives of their family is an idiot.

Sorry if this statement offends you.

#8 = not good for defending you and your family

#8 = good for not killing the neighbors after wall penetration

[Colorado_Outback]

#8 = good for not killing the neighbors after wall penetration

This was my point replace #8 with your shot of choice.

[van7559]

In close quarters #8 will definitely subdue and stop an intruder ...especially when followed by 2 more quick follow up shots

[ray1970]

I'm really not trying to piss in everyones Cheerios here, but the whole birdshot thing really bothers me. Here is a picture of the penetration of #8 shot out of a 12 ga. into ballistics gel. Four or five inches with no temporary or permanent stretch cavity isn't really what you want in a defensive round. Not to mention you throw in a light jacket and maybe a sternum and a rib cage and you would probably get about zero penetration into any sort of organs or arteries to cause any serious, debilitating damage.

http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr47/Browning35/Gunshot%20Wounds/Birdshot_Gel_8.jpg

[ray1970]

Here is some #4 buckshot for comparison.

http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr47/Browning35/Gunshot%20Wounds/buck_4_in_gel.jpg

[Skully]

I'm really not trying to piss in everyones Cheerios here, but the whole birdshot thing really bothers me. Here is a picture of the penetration of #8 shot out of a 12 ga. into ballistics gel. Four or five inches with no temporary or permanent stretch cavity isn't really what you want in a defensive round. Not to mention you throw in a light jacket and maybe a sternum and a rib cage and you would probably get about zero penetration into any sort of organs or arteries to cause any serious, debilitating damage.



Would have to agree with Ray, I use 00 buck.

There is a guy on the web BOX -O-TRUTH (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm) , pretty interesting. No ballistic gel, just a box made to test under REAL conditions. (not sure why I said videos orginally, brain is tired)

[jmg8550]

And how far away was the gel when shot. I would think that within 15 feet, that #8 shot will do just as much damage as buck shot.

[ray1970]

It was shot out of an 18" barrel. I don't remember the exact distance but based on the lack of spread in the pattern my guess would be well under 15 feet.


I'm bowing out of this thread now. Just wanted to post up a little info for those of you who think that birdshot is magic and that somehow it won't go through two sheets of sheetrock with any lethality remaining but it will blow through a grown mans sternum and ribs and still have enough energy left over to do major damage to the heart, lungs, or a major artery.

If any of you ever have to use it to protect yourselves or your loved ones I hope I'm wrong and you're right. [Beer]

[Skully]

If any of you ever have to use it to protect yourselves or your loved ones I hope I'm wrong and you're right.


I remembered seeing this, it was on my link to the box O truth.


[B]When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com (http://www.AR15.com) sends this:

"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"

[Zombie Steve]

I use #6 - 7-1/2 on pheasants because it tends to knock them down as they're flying away, but doesn't penetrate through to wreck the breast meat. Half the time, the dog brings them back and I have to break their neck. Granted, it's 25 yards, but that's a 3-4 pound bird.

Anything that's going to be useful in stopping bad guys is going to have the ability to penetrate a wall. Pick your choke points / shooting lanes ahead of time, and don't miss. [Beer]

[cstone]

00 is easy to find and reasonable to buy.

#4 buck is what we had loaded in our duty shotguns. We had 1 oz slugs available if we needed distance and/or penetration.

If your target is a fully clothed, 200+ lbs. aggressor, or driving a 1.5 ton vehicle, I want the first shot to count.

Be safe.

[josh7328]

no birdshot here. I know it sounds blunt, but I was just thinking... my job as a husband and father is to protect my wife and daughter first. Any incidentals to that... well, that sucks, I'm sorry. I also just realized that our apartment defense plan has our sectors of fire always pointing toward exterior walls, so over-penetration is a minor concern. If we execute the plan as planned (which never happens in combat [facepalm]), we should be fine. I think I'll stick to the tried and true 00 Buck in her 12 GA, and some OTM 5.56 in my M4gery. Thanks all.

[spqrzilla]

Years ago, I saw the x-ray of Lemond's thoracic when Greg LeMond (the American Tour de France winner) was accidentally shot by his brother in law while bird hunting. It looked like the x-ray film had been used to pattern the shotgun. Including shot in the lining of his heart.