View Full Version : This guy stepped over the line...
http://abcnews.go.com/US/minnesota-man-shot-burglars-fired-shots-needed/story?id=17813093#.ULP-FYfAcmw
This is how you DON'T go about defending yourself...[Bang]
"If you're trying to shoot somebody and they laugh at you, you go again."
Eh. Makes sense to me [Dunno]
SuperiorDG
11-26-2012, 18:14
Is this that guy who made that home defense video?
Somebody is missing a few marbles [facepalm]
clublights
11-26-2012, 18:18
There is defending your home / self ... then there is executing someone.....
Rifle up under the chin is an execution .. not self defense.
Tinelement
11-26-2012, 18:53
What a dickweed!
theGinsue
11-26-2012, 18:55
I was good with his actions until I read that he dragged (both) the teens bodies onto a tarp. Then, further lost me with his putting the gun under the girls chin and firing a second shot. Of course, making ANY comments was the wrong move as well.
If he'd have left the bodies where they fell, called the police once he felt the threat was neutralized - without KILLING if it could be prevented (which may or may not have been the eventual result of the first shot to the girl, but the second shot was clearly uncalled for), I'd stand with this guy and he probably wouldn't have been arrested. Sadly, he took it way to far.
Side note:
Mini-14 jammed: anyone who's ever owned or shot one knows how common that is.
Aloha_Shooter
11-26-2012, 19:08
Asses like this make it harder on the rest of us by giving the Brady Bunch more talking points and extreme examples. :-(
Goodburbon
11-26-2012, 19:14
Body on a tarp...oooooohhhhkaaaaay maybe he didn't want blood soaking his wood floors? Dragged body to basement... lost me. Gun under chin for a good clean finishing shot...yeah you're a moron and a murderer by your own admission.
spqrzilla
11-26-2012, 19:14
Yep, he deserves to be convicted of homicide.
islandermyk
11-26-2012, 19:28
Body on a tarp...oooooohhhhkaaaaay maybe he didn't want blood soaking his wood floors? Dragged body to basement... lost me. Gun under chin for a good clean finishing shot...yeah you're a moron and a murderer by your own admission.
You know, I have a feeling this guy had his way with the girl in the basement before putting a bullet in her head... that's why it took a whole day for the guy to call and report what happened..
Pretty f*cked up.... bet there won't be home invasions in that area for awhile... never knowing what kind of sick f*ck lives in the house that someone would plan to break into...
rockhound
11-26-2012, 19:40
bet you wont be laughing at him though
Hopefully he doesn't giggle when Bubbas giving it to him! [werdo]
This guy totally enjoyed those teens breaking into his home that night. Sad but true.
palepainter
11-26-2012, 20:16
I guess it pays to know the mental capacity of those you choose to rob......
Besides the things everyone else mentioned, this part bothered me as well...
"Neither of the teens had a weapon"
I'm not familiar with the laws in that state, but sometimes you just have to use a little common sense too. I obviously wasn't there and don't know everything that went on, but I don't think I would have even fired a shot. I would guess that once I announced or showed them that I was armed they probably would have turned and left.
The guy definitely has some sort of mental issue.
Hitman 6
11-26-2012, 20:39
Side note:
Mini-14 jammed: anyone who's ever owned or shot one knows how common that is.
Yes sir, I was actually surprised to hear he hit anything with it!
Here is where the whole thing goes off the rails for me - Boy goes down the steps, gets shot twice, indoors, and falls down the steps. Moments later, girl goes down the steps... WTF?
I don't need a polygraph or the Bat Computer to throw the BS flag on that story.
Miranda v. Arizona - You have the right to remain silent. Do everyone a favor; Use it!
Be safe.
BushMasterBoy
11-26-2012, 21:18
Other story. No Castle Doctrine in Minnesota...
http://seemydeath.com/murders/4210-nicholas-brady-17-and-haile-kifer-18-were-shot-and-killed-when-they-tried-to-break-into-byron-david-smith-64-house.html#axzz2DOC6SSWT
I'm surprised to hear the people they interviewed not praising what an angel the robber was.
I view this as gang violence. Some trash interacted with some other trash and the outcome was bad for the trash, but likely good for the community.
Here is where the whole thing goes off the rails for me - Boy goes down the steps, gets shot twice, indoors, and falls down the steps. Moments later, girl goes down the steps... WTF?
I don't need a polygraph or the Bat Computer to throw the BS flag on that story.
Miranda v. Arizona - You have the right to remain silent. Do everyone a favor; Use it!
Be safe.
He also said she laughed. Drugs?
Here is where the whole thing goes off the rails for me - Boy goes down the steps, gets shot twice, indoors, and falls down the steps. Moments later, girl goes down the steps... WTF?
The way I read it was the boy comes in and gets shot, the guy gets a tarp and puts under the body or whatever, then the girl comes in and gets shot.
I think the boy came in and then the girl either heard the shots and then came in to see what was going on or went to investigate after the boy had been in for too long. Seems like there was enough time between shooting the two of them that he had time to fiddle with the boys body and put a tarp under it.
Goodburbon
11-26-2012, 21:28
There is A LOT that doesn't make sense at the outset of this story.
Here is where the whole thing goes off the rails for me - Boy goes down the steps, gets shot twice, indoors, and falls down the steps. Moments later, girl goes down the steps... WTF?
I don't need a polygraph or the Bat Computer to throw the BS flag on that story.
Miranda v. Arizona - You have the right to remain silent. Do everyone a favor; Use it!
Be safe.
Yeah I was going to say that. The guy was in his basement? Heard glass break, when he saw the male burgler's hips he shot, twice? Gun, loud, gun in house LOUDER, yet the female "burgler" still came in presumed through the same entry point, but took long enough for said guy to move body to tarp? She didn't run after hearing the gunshots?
I would suspect he took so much time to report to authorities to hone the story. There has got to be more to it, the "whole / true story" is there somewhere. The guy is a freak and even his "sounds made up" story still incriminated himself a sadistic idiot.
He also said she laughed. Drugs?
Despite the story's version, I would suspect a death rattle, not a laugh.
So much wrong with this story, then sift it through some bad journalism story telling and you get the outline for a Steven King novel [pileoshit]
Despite the story's version, I would suspect a death rattle, not a laugh.
So much wrong with this story, then sift it through some bad journalism story telling and you get the outline for a Steven King novel [pileoshit]
Sounds like a story that's not even worthy of a really cheesy B movie.
Sounds like a story that's not even worthy of a really cheesy B movie.
Perhaps Ridge could find a Pony reenactment of the crime scene. [Bang]
Rucker61
11-26-2012, 23:06
Despite the story's version, I would suspect a death rattle, not a laugh.
My thought, too.
Execution isn't exactly self defense last time I checked.
Execution isn't exactly self defense last time I checked.
Exactly... I was always taught- both in the military and by handgun instructors "Fire to eliminate the threat, this does not necessarily mean shoot to kill."
sabot_round
11-26-2012, 23:29
Holy crap!! If I read this correctly this guy will get fried just like the guy in Oklahoma.
SA Friday
11-27-2012, 01:24
Despite the story's version, I would suspect a death rattle, not a laugh.
So much wrong with this story, then sift it through some bad journalism story telling and you get the outline for a Steven King novel [pileoshit]
I think he wrote it already. It was in the book Four Seasons; old guy living alone and killing bums... Ya, close enough. Maybe he's a Nazi hiding out in MN? [Peep]
well the teens were on drugs but the guy still went beyond self defense (according to the media) . i was not there so i cant say but imho guy should be put in the puzzle factory for a while
"Yes, she had an addiction problem and stuff, but that doesn't mean she deserves to get murdered at 18 years old," Shaeffel said. "I understand they came there to rob them, or whatever, but shoot them in the shoulder and call the cops."
Idiots with guns out in force. Heres another in FL. http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/26/us/florida-music-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t3
What happened for sure we don't know but left the scene and didn't report it.
Sounds like slightly stupid circumstances too, started it by telling someone else in essentially a public parking lot to turn down their music (we don't know if politely or not.) Then when they respond in a uncouth manner, he freaks out and opens fire on a car full of people? It mentions making motions to open door not they actually had. Not to mention any sign of this mysterious barrell.
buffalobo
11-27-2012, 05:34
Three douchebags eliminated from gene pool.[Beer]
Big black eye for gun owners and self defense in general.[fail]
Whistler
11-27-2012, 05:48
Very odd story and with only one side left to tell the tale I wonder will the "real" story ever be known. The tarps, "clean finishing shot", 24 hour lag, etc. don't make sense but doesn't justify breaking in either.
The news on the other hand I could do with a bit less of;
Beside the quotes Alex included these caught my eye; "Crystal Shaeffel walked down the long driveway on Sunday, past the "keep out" sign" & "Neighbors described Byron Smith as a loner who liked to shoot his guns often, intimidating and worrying nearby residents.", “neighbor Lori Williams said she had complained to authorities about the frequent shooting on Smith's property, worrying that children playing outside could be hurt. But deputies had told her and her husband that nothing could be done because his property was outside city limits" Of course "They were just really great people," said Rachel Stauffer, 15. "They could make anyone laugh."
ANADRILL
11-27-2012, 09:00
They shouldn't have been robbing in the first place. When one does stupid things, he should expect to reap the the consequeces. Yeah it was a little over the top, but thats the chance one takes when he breaks into someone's house. In the shooter's mind, he had already been broken into numerous times, and if you have ever had vermin/pests you seek to eradicate them. I am sorry for the family's loss, but they are fault for not teaching their kids right from wrong. Let it be a lesson to the nation, that if you break into to someone's house that there is a chance you may not be walking back out that house. They are lucky that they weren't tortured for months and years, then put to death. Honestly, as in the Trayvon case, I have no remorse for the victim/victims.
One question I had was assumed robbery. Some comments and things suggested they were on drugs at the time? So perhaps in a meth high or something wondered in. Doesn't negate a castle doctrine type deal as they are intruders regardless. (But Minnesota apparently doesn't have such a law anyways.)
A little over the top Drill? Latest report was that he stated shot the 2nd with the rifle, then retrieved a .22 shot her with that before the execution. The whole 24 hours since it was even reported raises questions like the possibility of something even more nefarious since this is all based on his statements. (Ie maybe they were even lured there.)
The more I think about this, the more it doesn't add up. They know the guy has guns (apparently everyone did, including the cops), and shoots "often", so they go out of their way to break in to his house(past "no trespassing" signs), then rather than take whatever was of value upstairs and bail, they go wandering downstairs in search of the guy? And after he shoots intruder number 1, intruder number 2 continues to move down the stairs to see if she can collect a couple of rounds for herself? This is sounding more and more like some kind of premeditated murder. I'm going to try to continue to follow this to see what comes to light as the investigation proceeds.
"I understand they came there to rob them, or whatever, but shoot them in the shoulder and call the cops."
This is what I have issue with- I'm not going to risk my life to try to aim for a wounding shot, I'm going to quickly and as accurately as possible aim for center mass and shoot to eliminate the threat. If the threat ceases but isn't dead, yes, a wounded man will be transferred to police, if they do die from my defense, then so be it, but for an LE agency spokesman to say shoot them non-fatally and call us is just silly. If you shoot, you shouldn't be shooting to kill or wound, you should be shooting to stop the imminent threat.
Rucker61
11-27-2012, 12:47
[/LEFT]
This is what I have issue with- I'm not going to risk my life to try to aim for a wounding shot, I'm going to quickly and as accurately as possible aim for center mass and shoot to eliminate the threat. If the threat ceases but isn't dead, yes, a wounded man will be transferred to police, if they do die from my defense, then so be it, but for an LE agency spokesman to say shoot them non-fatally and call us is just silly. If you shoot, you shouldn't be shooting to kill or wound, you should be shooting to stop the imminent threat.
I'm with you. A shot to the leg or shoulder could kill while a center of mass shot might just wound. There is no "shoot just to wound" shot. Shoot until the threat is removed.
I'm with you. A shot to the leg or shoulder could kill whil a center of mass shot might just wound. There is no "shoot just to wound" shot. Shoot until the threat is removed.
Well I also think that a shot to the leg, shoulder or anywhere else that is technically not considered fatal, what if it doesn't have the desired effect? What if they're armed? You take a pot shot at their arm and they don't stop- now they injured, angry, and probably going to present an even greater threat... Like said in Bad Boys II:
Mike Lowery (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000226/): Look, I'm down with your spiritual enlightenment and all that, but I need to know right now some crackhead come rollin' up behind me with a nine you gonna cook that fool.
Marcus Burnett (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001454/): Of course, shoot him in the leg.
Mike Lowery (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000226/): Forget that leg shit, man.
Marcus Burnett (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001454/): Everybody deserves a little dignity.
Mike Lowery (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000226/): What about my dignity? Your crackhead gonna be missin' a kneecap, I'm gonna be in a body bag.
newracer
11-27-2012, 13:59
http://stmedia.startribune.com/documents/Criminal+Complaint+-+BYRON+SMITH.pdf
BushMasterBoy
11-27-2012, 14:04
Plead it down to Man 2 and probation...
ANADRILL
11-27-2012, 14:59
I am just saying break into my place, but don't expect to leave alive....I will sbr .308 you ass center mass, and have a cigar while the cops come drag the carcass off...:) I hate thieves, and I will make sure I go over sharia law's (chopping hands and all that)standards of justice....hahahaaha
Colorado Luckydog
11-27-2012, 17:15
Bottom line at this point, none of us have a clue what really happened. To bad those kids are dead but there are a lot of bad seeds out there.
I hope I never have to but I would be very much on the offensive if someone broke into my home. My family is very important to me and I would not bother to ask an intruder if they were armed or not.
What a dickweed!
^^ This! WTF?
Bottom line at this point, none of us have a clue what really happened. To bad those kids are dead but there are a lot of bad seeds out there.
I hope I never have to but I would be very much on the offensive if someone broke into my home. My family is very important to me and I would not bother to ask an intruder if they were armed or not.
I would also trust that you would not continue to shoot an intruder after the threat had ended. By his own admission, this guy did that twice, even grabbing another gun after his Mini-14 failed.
Plead it down to Man 2 and probation...
Fuck that. Double homicide. He executed those kids. Regardless of their intentions in his home, he fucking murdered them.
ANADRILL
11-27-2012, 21:31
Should have used an AR.Damn mini 14s, no wonder there was crapload trades/sold off on here over past few months...
ANADRILL
11-27-2012, 21:33
Fuck that. Double homicide. He executed those kids. Regardless of their intentions in his home, he fucking murdered them.
Let it be a warning to all, don't break into other people's houses. It's like posting a pike with a head on it.
Fuck that. Double homicide. He executed those kids. Regardless of their intentions in his home, he fucking murdered them.
I agree, but am also not saddened by the loss of those kids.
Great-Kazoo
11-27-2012, 23:21
Fuck that. Double homicide. He executed those kids. Regardless of their intentions in his home, he fucking murdered them.
Been holding off especially after reading the homeowners " Leaked" statements.
This guy executed 2 CRIMINALS. Not children, kids etc. They were criminals. The homeowner forgot Rule #1 when talking to LE
ATTORNEY, ATTORNEY, ATTORNEY
Unfortunately this is one case where the home owner who had a loaded gun is an IDIOT! A soon to be convicted without parole one i might add.
Great-Kazoo
11-27-2012, 23:23
I would also trust that you would not continue to shoot an intruder after the threat had ended. By his own admission, this guy did that twice, even grabbing another gun after his Mini-14 failed.
Which goes to show one of the basic tenants of self defense, Fight or FLIGHT. If he had time to acquire another firearm, He had time to FLEE.
XC700116
11-27-2012, 23:55
While I'm totally in the let's not go after the guy defending himself camp, I'm also in the "This guy is a psycho and murdered 2 kids" camp and I'd bet there was no burglary involved either. You don't shoot a home intruder and then not call the cops. His neighbor called the cops after he called them asking about a lawyer THE NEXT DAY. This guy is batshit crazy and most likely killed 2 kids and then decided to try and cover it up as self defense, and not doing a good job of it either.
Also who's going to shoot someone with a rifle in their house and then sit down in your chair and shoot another one, while "wearing" a pistol? I mean, there's not many times I don't have at least one that's easy to access, but I'm not wearing a Holster in the house AND carrying around one of the rifles either. Add into the equation that these 2 kids supposedly broke into his house through a window at Noon? It's just not adding up and I'd bet money that 90% of his statement on that criminal complaint that Newracer posted is BS.
Having grown up less than 50 miles from where this happened, VERY few people are the least bit intimidated by people shooting on their own property. Deer hunting is a religion there and it's not uncommon in the least for people to be shooting in their back yards and such. People in that area are in general extremely comfortable around guns and shooting, so while I take the one lady's statement to the press with a whole block of salt, not just a grain, (because a lot of times people like to amp up their statements for the news crews) I'm guessing people had a LOT of other reasons this guy bothered them than the fact that he shoots regularly on his property.
Whistler
11-28-2012, 05:32
Also who's going to shoot someone with a rifle in their house and then sit down in your chair and shoot another one, while "wearing" a pistol? I mean, there's not many times I don't have at least one that's easy to access, but I'm not wearing a Holster in the house AND carrying around one of the rifles either.
Don't think I'm alone in this crowd but I frequently (usually) wear a pistol at home and can reach more than one rifle from where I'm sitting at the moment. Not condemning or supporting the guy until all the facts are in though the age of the criminals is irrelevant IMO.
BuffCyclist
11-28-2012, 05:54
[/LEFT]
This is what I have issue with- I'm not going to risk my life to try to aim for a wounding shot, I'm going to quickly and as accurately as possible aim for center mass and shoot to eliminate the threat. If the threat ceases but isn't dead, yes, a wounded man will be transferred to police, if they do die from my defense, then so be it, but for an LE agency spokesman to say shoot them non-fatally and call us is just silly. If you shoot, you shouldn't be shooting to kill or wound, you should be shooting to stop the imminent threat.
I'm with Ronin on this one. You shoot to eliminate the threat, whether thats one shot to knock them down, or an entire mag to get them to stop coming at you, you shoot until they are no longer a threat. Making a precise shot to an extremity is difficult when your life is threatened, and if you are shooting them in an extremity to slow them down, then your life really isn't in danger and you shouldn't be shooting. You shoot when your life is threatened and you have no other option.
My CCW instructor drilled this into us. It is murder if they are weaponless, lying helpless and you continue to shoot them. Granted, he also said that if the perp is dead, there is no second side to the story, which it sounds like maybe this guy was trying to cover up.
rockhound
11-28-2012, 09:44
Fuck that. Double homicide. He executed those kids. Regardless of their intentions in his home, he fucking murdered them.
this^^^^
At this point I am not certain the kids broke in. Who has a tarp at the ready in the basement. I am thinking kidnapping and homicide......
While it seems much more tame here, It got pretty heated on another board I'm on with people gloating about "if someone comes into my house they are leaving in a body bag"
Take this however you will but I have what you would consider a decent amount of trigger time, as I'm sure several others here do. Until you have been put into a situation that truly endangers your life, which this 64yr old man was not in, you will not understand the emotions that go through your head. Until you have had to take life you can't even fathom the effect that has on you. I had a hard time coping with things I did against people that were trying to kill me, and conspiring to kill me. I couldn't imagine trying to deal with killing two kids (yes age is relevant) who were unarmed.
This goes to show the lack of training, and discipline by gun owners. I don't blame the gun grabbers one bit for taking this and running with it, because it has been made clear to me by the responses over this throughout the internet that there are many other wack jobs like this that shouldn't own a firearm.
Simply killing someone because they are in your home is not acceptable, that is what we have a Judicial system for. You are not Judge Dredd. If you want your BOL and your COTUS, then you need to embrace all of it, this is not war, combat, or a 3rd world country. You get one shot to eliminate your threat, if you miss, or it doesn't kill them... that doesn't mean continue engaging them once they are no longer engaging you. The threat has been eliminated, if the outcome wasn't what you wanted, too fawking bad.
Aside from that, there is no doubt in my mind this was premeditated. Who starts randomly shooting at legs @ 1pm on Thanksgiving? It could of been anyone... family, friends, neighbor. This old man had a plan, and he executed it. What other foul play may be involved I had no doubt will come out... Innocent people don't drag bodies onto tarps, and into different rooms... wait 25hrs to call a neighbor for a lawyer and STILL didn't call the police.
Justin, I agree- I had to inform a guy in Afghanistan (a former Ranger and "mercenary"- his words- who was a contractor on our FOB) that he was wrong when he said "If someone breaks into your house, make sure you kill them, otherwise they'll sue you, and dead men tell no tales so the family can't come after you." I didn't say you get one shot, but I did say that you can't just empty your mag into the bastard who broke in, the police will deem this unnecessary and excessive beyond reasonable escalation of force. I've never killed anyone, and I hope I never have, but I have been in a few situations (combat, not in the civi world) where I've had a locked and loaded weapon trained on a potential threat, ready to put them down, finger ready to move to the trigger. I'm confident that *if* I'm ever in a situation where force is absolutely necessary, there will be no hesitation. But I always keep in the back of my mind, if the threat is eliminated and alive or surrenders further force is not needed and to call LE and a lawyer.
To quote a former CSPD officer and certified handgun instructor "Deadly force is only justified in the state of Colorado when someone unlawfully enters your home or residence you are occupying and you legitimately fear for you life or suspect they have or will commit a crime; but even in that case you cannot use an excessive amount of force against them, only proportionate force to stop the threat."
ChadAmberg
11-28-2012, 10:50
Just remember folks... Posting on a public forum saying things like "They'll get dragged out in a body bag no matter what" (made up example not directed towards any particular post) will come back to haunt you should you ever get involved in a self defense shooting where the bad guy gets killed and you're on the witness stand defending yourself, maybe not criminally but in civil court at least.
when I said you get one shot I don't literally mean one bullet, I mean you get one shot to stop the threat.
It is very important to be trained, disciplined, and understand escalation of force. If for nothing other than to be a better human being.
If I had a dollar for everyone a police officer had a gun pointed at them and they were able to deescalate the situation without a shot fired I'd fawking retire. Same thing goes for being deployed. Too many people think they are Clint Eastwood.
As for "If someone breaks into your house, make sure you kill them, otherwise they'll sue you, and dead men tell no tales so the family can't come after you."
This is some of the dumbest shit I've ever heard, and I hear it often. How does killing someone make it so the family cannot come after you? If you murder someone you certainly will be pursued monetarily, as well as spend a good amount of time in Prison, if not the rest of your life.
DavieD55
11-28-2012, 10:59
Just remember folks... Posting on a public forum saying things like "They'll get dragged out in a body bag no matter what" (made up example not directed towards any particular post) will come back to haunt you should you ever get involved in a self defense shooting where the bad guy gets killed and you're on the witness stand defending yourself, maybe not criminally but in civil court at least.
Yup, If you're involved in a SD shootout you can bet your grandmamas home made apple pie they will dig into all the stuff you post on the WWW.
Yup, If you're involved in a SD shootout you can bet your grandmamas home made apple pie they will dig into all the stuff you post on the WWW.
I like the Chris Costa quote about turning the tables: "There is nothing defensive about shooting another human being." Meaning that once you decide to use deadly force, you cease to be defensive and take the fight to your adversary in order to save your own life or others.
Whistler
11-28-2012, 11:58
While it seems much more tame here, It got pretty heated on another board I'm on with people gloating about "if someone comes into my house they are leaving in a body bag"
Take this however you will but I have what you would consider a decent amount of trigger time, as I'm sure several others here do. Until you have been put into a situation that truly endangers your life, which this 64yr old man was not in, you will not understand the emotions that go through your head. Until you have had to take life you can't even fathom the effect that has on you. I had a hard time coping with things I did against people that were trying to kill me, and conspiring to kill me. I couldn't imagine trying to deal with killing two kids (yes age is relevant) who were unarmed.
This goes to show the lack of training, and discipline by gun owners. I don't blame the gun grabbers one bit for taking this and running with it, because it has been made clear to me by the responses over this throughout the internet that there are many other wack jobs like this that shouldn't own a firearm.
Simply killing someone because they are in your home is not acceptable, that is what we have a Judicial system for. You are not Judge Dredd. If you want your BOL and your COTUS, then you need to embrace all of it, this is not war, combat, or a 3rd world country. You get one shot to eliminate your threat, if you miss, or it doesn't kill them... that doesn't mean continue engaging them once they are no longer engaging you. The threat has been eliminated, if the outcome wasn't what you wanted, too fawking bad.
Aside from that, there is no doubt in my mind this was premeditated. Who starts randomly shooting at legs @ 1pm on Thanksgiving? It could of been anyone... family, friends, neighbor. This old man had a plan, and he executed it. What other foul play may be involved I had no doubt will come out... Innocent people don't drag bodies onto tarps, and into different rooms... wait 25hrs to call a neighbor for a lawyer and STILL didn't call the police.
Well goodness, no point in having a trial then, you've got it all figured out but I think I'll wait for more facts. While I tend to agree with what I perceive you are communicating please don't presume to tell another what goes through their head, your experience may be very different from someone else.
DavieD55
11-28-2012, 12:08
I like the Chris Costa quote about turning the tables: "There is nothing defensive about shooting another human being." Meaning that once you decide to use deadly force, you cease to be defensive and take the fight to your adversary in order to save your own life or others.
Makes sense.
Well goodness, no point in having a trial then, you've got it all figured out but I think I'll wait for more facts. While I tend to agree with what I perceive you are communicating please don't presume to tell another what goes through their head, your experience may be very different from someone else.
No point in trial? Pretty sure I expressed the exact opposite of that.
Aloha_Shooter
11-28-2012, 15:10
No point in trial? Pretty sure I expressed the exact opposite of that.
Mmmmmm ... no. I'm pretty sure Whistler is referring to your statements
Until you have been put into a situation that truly endangers your life, which this 64yr old man was not in, you will not understand the emotions that go through your head.
it has been made clear to me by the responses over this throughout the internet that there are many other wack jobs like this that shouldn't own a firearm.
there is no doubt in my mind this was premeditated
which indicate you've already assessed the man's life wasn't endangered and that he premeditated a murder and further that many people shouldn't own a firearm. My initial inclination is that this guy broke the law and grotesquely exceeded "self-defense" but I am open to more information and evidence. I think Whistler is simply pointing out that you appear to have already made up your mind on the facts of the case and rendered a verdict with only the sentencing left to be done.
Many people should not own firearms, including this old man, and the others that think like him. That is my opinion , and I have a right to it, just as the people that are happy he killed these criminals have a right to that opinion.
At no point was this guys life in danger, this is a fact. This isn't a "what might of happened", it is what did happen. He had the upper hand by knowing exactly where they were, at all times, and firing on unsuspecting targets who he borderline lured into his basement. Then after identifying that they were unarmed and not a threat, murdered them.
He was 100% on the offensive, those teenagers had no idea he was there based off of his own testimony and he just wanted them dead.
I drew my conclusions based off of the mans own personal testimony in his criminal complaint.
I do now understand what you meant though Whistler, and I can't disagree. I can just explain my thought.
Whistler
11-28-2012, 16:38
Many people should not own firearms, including this old man, and the others that think like him. That is my opinion , and I have a right to it, just as the people that are happy he killed these criminals have a right to that opinion.
At no point was this guys life in danger, this is a fact. This isn't a "what might of happened", it is what did happen. He had the upper hand by knowing exactly where they were, at all times, and firing on unsuspecting targets who he borderline lured into his basement. Then after identifying that they were unarmed and not a threat, murdered them.
He was 100% on the offensive, those teenagers had no idea he was there based off of his own testimony and he just wanted them dead.
I drew my conclusions based off of the mans own personal testimony in his criminal complaint.
Of course you're entitled to your opinion, that's all this entire thread is folks sharing opinions but I think you still missed the point. All you know about this story is what has been presented in an obvious anti-gun biased article and the PDF of the complaint. It is not unusual for a suspect's statements to be paraphrased and this is not represented as a transcript of the interview or testimony. The point was you are jumping to a conclusion based on incomplete facts and extrapolating that conclusion to contend the right to own a firearm should be based on your (or anyone's) individual personal opinion. Further you ascribe motivation to support your contention with hyperbole; "Judge Dredd", "Clint Eastwood", that have no basis in fact.
Based on what is known (or thought to be known) it does appear this individual took action beyond necessary self-defense however even should that be proven it is no justification to promote restricting another otherwise law-abiding citizen's right to own a firearm, what you might do based on a layman opinion of what type of person you are.
The only reason I pointed it out at all is that it is exactly the type of knee-jerk reaction most of us rail about when it comes from the anti-gun crowd.
This goes to show the lack of training, and discipline by gun owners. I don't blame the gun grabbers one bit for taking this and running with it, because it has been made clear to me by the responses over this throughout the internet that there are many other wack jobs like this that shouldn't own a firearm.
You may be right and it may have played out just as you have described but it also may simply be how it appears at this point or it may be that it's something in between. Regardless it is no justification to go off on gun owners you don't know or weren't involved questioning their motivation, training and decision making. I'm not trying to be contentious but you have no idea of my trigger time, training, experience, where I have been or what I have had to do. Your opinion on the thread is welcome, your diatribe on who should own a gun, what training they need and their motivation less so.
Whistler
11-28-2012, 16:39
I do now understand what you meant though Whistler, and I can't disagree. I can just explain my thought.
Oops, already wrote a book to clarify [Beer]
Oops, already wrote a book to clarify [Beer]
What I'm not sure if you grasped about my comment on people owning firearms and training wasn't so much aimed towards the guy in this story, or gun owners in general, but the masses of people that agreed with what he did, and congratulating him.
Whether it be smack talk over the net or not, if people truly think what has been alleged this guy did is justified, those are the ones my comments are geared towards.
DavieD55
11-28-2012, 16:49
To wait 24 hours before calling the police, moving bodies around is just bizarre. The man clearly has some mental issues going on.
Whistler
11-28-2012, 17:03
@DavieD55 - Certainly suspicious in the context of what is known. Time will tell.
@NMB2 - Internet tough guys, if you've been around as much as I inferred from your comments you are aware half of them would freeze.
Mostly I interpret that type of comment to mean they support a self-defense doctrine as opposed to condoning murder in general and just consider it over-zealous fueled by anonymity.
XC700116
11-28-2012, 20:29
Don't think I'm alone in this crowd but I frequently (usually) wear a pistol at home and can reach more than one rifle from where I'm sitting at the moment. Not condemning or supporting the guy until all the facts are in though the age of the criminals is irrelevant IMO.
Interesting, I always kinda figure when I'm in the house the multiple guns in multiple rooms thing pretty much covers it. To each their own. And I agree the age of these 2 is completely irrelevant to the situation, but I'm just saying there's a LOT of things that are REALLY fishy about how things went down and especially his statement to the PD.
...who he borderline lured into his basement. Then after identifying that they were unarmed and not a threat...
Where did you get the information to even form this thought, let alone support it?
Where did you get the information to even form this thought, let alone support it?
His statement.
He heard them come in, and waited for them. After shooting the first one, acknowledged he was not armed then shot him in the face. Moved the body and sat back down and without calling police waited for the girl as he heard her walk around up stairs.
Shot her as she walked down, acknowledged she was not armed, but she pissed him off when he thought he heard her laugh so that means "you go again".... POS mini-14 jammed... so he pumped several rounds into her chest with the revolver, drug her body onto the tarp, and then shot her from "chin to cranium"
I think that is plenty of evidence for me to form that thought.
Can you expand on how he lured them into his basement?
Also, when you hear someone break into your house on the ground floor and start walking around while you are in the basement, what is the preferred action? Where is the line between staying in the defensible basement, and waiting for someone?
Great-Kazoo
11-28-2012, 23:37
Can you expand on how he lured them into his basement?
Also, when you hear someone break into your house on the ground floor and start walking around while you are in the basement, what is the preferred action? Where is the line between staying in the defensible basement, and waiting for someone?
Dialing 911 and staying on line. IF there is no way out find something to get behind. If there is a way out are you sure no other members are lurking. Stay put, stay alert and stay on line, with the 911 dispatcher.
The guy murdered them, by his own statement, put a gun to their head (loosely interpreted) and executed them. As a gun owner and very Pro 2A supporter there is (IMO) no way i can defend this guy, again, by his own statement to the police.
Can you expand on how he lured them into his basement?
Also, when you hear someone break into your house on the ground floor and start walking around while you are in the basement, what is the preferred action? Where is the line between staying in the defensible basement, and waiting for someone?
I said borderline lured.
I say this because his own admission was that it was several minutes between the boy and the girl..... Instead of calling the police in this time frame as any rational human being would do..... he drug the boy out of the stair well and onto a tarp, probably to not alarm any other intruder coming down. Remember, he said he wanted them both dead.... a dead body at the bottom of the stair well would of made the girl freak out.
He sat back down and waited, this is his own admission. Therefore I perceive these actions as borderline luring the girl into the basement.
As for how I would of handed the situation.... he had plenty of time to phone the police before his first encounter with the boy. Calling the police would of been my first move......
Secondly, its 1pm on Thanksgiving..... not typical armed robbery hours. I would of probably waited to see who it was before firing at someones legs, could of been anyone, but lets just say I am an idiot and I shot someone in the waist.... as they tumbled down the stairs, I walk over and realize that this is a young man, unarmed, myself or my wife would of phoned the police while I grabbed my IFAK.
If while I was treating him I heard more footsteps, I would of dropped what I was doing and grabbed my fire arm... chances are he would of told me that it was his dumbass fawking cousin, I would of told them to stop moving. (escalation of force)... by this time I'm very sure police would of already been on the scene, probably before the girl was heard upstairs when 911 gets a phone call that someone is shot.
Great-Kazoo
11-28-2012, 23:47
I said borderline lured.
I say this because his own admission was that it was several minutes between the boy and the girl..... Instead of calling the police in this time frame as any rational human being would do..... he drug the boy out of the stair well and onto a tarp, probably to not alarm any other intruder coming down. Remember, he said he wanted them both dead.... a dead body at the bottom of the stair well would of made the girl freak out.
He sat back down and waited, this is his own admission. Therefore I perceive these actions as borderline luring the girl into the basement.
As for how I would of handed the situation.... he had plenty of time to phone the police before his first encounter with the boy. Calling the police would of been my first move......
Secondly, its 1pm on Thanksgiving..... not typical armed robbery hours. I would of probably waited to see who it was before firing at someones legs, could of been anyone, but lets just say I am an idiot and I shot someone in the waist.... as they tumbled down the stairs, I walk over and realize that this is a young man, unarmed, myself or my wife would of phoned the police while I grabbed my IFAK.
If while I was treating him I heard more footsteps, I would of dropped what I was doing and grabbed my fire arm... chances are he would of told me that it was his dumbass fawking cousin, I would of told them to stop moving. (escalation of force)... by this time I'm very sure police would of already been on the scene, probably before the girl was heard upstairs when 911 gets a phone call that someone is shot.
I agree until there is a clear threat, you do not discharge your firearm. Yes it could have been your drunk BIL who never gave you back that key.
With that out of the way............................................... .........................................
Exactly what time is a typical robbery, after lunch, appetizers? Dude, i'd like to hit that bitches house over on stafford but like 20 minutes to wopner.
Uninvited people in your home very rarely have "good intentions"
Dialing 911 and staying on line. IF there is no way out find something to get behind. If there is a way out are you sure no other members are lurking. Stay put, stay alert and stay on line, with the 911 dispatcher.
The guy murdered them, by his own statement, put a gun to their head (loosely interpreted) and executed them. As a gun owner and very Pro 2A supporter there is (IMO) no way i can defend this guy, again, by his own statement to the police.
Agreed 100%
I also am a very Pro 2A, and I agree that there is no way I can support or defend what he did. Actions like this do not support the 2A, the 2A was not put in place to let you do things like this, and it gives fuel to the gun grabbers.
Exactly what time is a typical robbery, after lunch, appetizers? Dude, i'd like to hit that bitches house over on stafford but like 20 minutes to wopner.
Treating him???? he was trespassing in YOUR HOME, Intent UNKNOWN, Potential for bodily harm to you or a loved one. JUST Because one is unarmed, does not mean they are not a THREAT. If they are moving they are a threat. keep them covered and wait for police to be on site.
Uninvited people in your home very rarely have "good intentions"
Sorry, not going to let someone die on my floor if I can help it. I would much rather them pay the piper through the legal system than die and have that on my conscious.
This goes back to training and experience.
Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt.
EDIT:
I should clarify. A non life threatening, debilitating wound.... I'll let them sit there in pain... think about the actions that brought them to this point.
A life threatening wound that needs immediate attention, I am 100% going to start treating them, not watch them die.
UNLESS... they were armed and engaged, or tried to engage me. I will then treat you like an armed combatant, and I will kill you. You may feel I have too much compassion or mercy for scum bags, but this is just how I would honestly deal with it.
Great-Kazoo
11-28-2012, 23:55
Sorry, not going to let someone die on my floor if I can help it. I would much rather them pay the piper through the legal system than die and have that on my conscious. Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt.
I re edited my post as you were replying.
If i engaged a threat, it's up to the para's to keep him breathing. If it was my dumb ass neighbor i'm doing everything i can.
Then again as mentioned, IDENTIFY the Threat, Be sure it is a threat, then take what ever action you feel is necessary. BUT be prepared for the aftermath, That's the long rough ride.
I re edited my post as you were replying.
If i engaged a threat, it's up to the para's to keep him breathing. If it was my dumb ass neighbor i'm doing everything i can.
Then again as mentioned, IDENTIFY the Threat, Be sure it is a threat, then take what ever action you feel is necessary. BUT be prepared for the aftermath, That's the long rough ride.
I edited mine too! LOL
While what I think he did was definitely crossing the line, I at the same time don't think he needs to be charged. they broke in. If they wouldn't have done that, this wouldn't have happened. bottom line he defended his home, I question his tactics but I don't want to see home defense rights getting questioned when they are in their home.
Great-Kazoo
11-29-2012, 00:08
While what I think he did was definitely crossing the line, I at the same time don't think he needs to be charged. they broke in. If they wouldn't have done that, this wouldn't have happened. bottom line he defended his home, I question his tactics but I don't want to see home defense rights getting questioned when they are in their home.
IF, IF he dialed 911 while in progress yes. Waiting until the next day, the jury & media will have a field day with Premeditated.
Dialing 911 and staying on line. IF there is no way out find something to get behind. If there is a way out are you sure no other members are lurking. Stay put, stay alert and stay on line, with the 911 dispatcher.
The guy murdered them, by his own statement, put a gun to their head (loosely interpreted) and executed them. As a gun owner and very Pro 2A supporter there is (IMO) no way i can defend this guy, again, by his own statement to the police.
I'm not saying he didn't murder them, nor am I defending his actions. Instead, I am disagreeing with the leaps that I feel NMB2 is taking to make conclusions from the very little actual evidence that has been provided.
I'll show you what I mean.
I said borderline lured.
I say this because his own admission was that it was several minutes between the boy and the girl..... Instead of calling the police in this time frame as any rational human being would do..... he drug the boy out of the stair well and onto a tarp, probably to not alarm any other intruder coming down. Remember, he said he wanted them both dead.... a dead body at the bottom of the stair well would of made the girl freak out. From the perspective of the girl upstairs, what is the difference between the guy in the basement getting on the phone to the police, and the guy not calling the police? Nothing. Whether he called the police or not is entirely irrelevant in the context of whether the girl was lured or not. If she didn't hear two shots from a rifle, it is unlikely that the sound of a one sided phone call would warn her to get out of the house. Before all of this though, what actions did the guy take to get boy into the house first?
He sat back down and waited, this is his own admission. Therefore I perceive these actions as borderline luring the girl into the basement. Again, luring implies the use of bait or some other incentive. Doing nothing, is not indicative of luring.
As for how I would of handed the situation.... he had plenty of time to phone the police before his first encounter with the boy. Calling the police would of been my first move......I'm not necessarily asking what you would have done. We all would have called the police, assuming a phone was available. Since we do not know if a phone was available, what are the options for this situation in the simplest form? Stay in basement, or leave basement. You've got someone who broke a window to get in, and is no longer a threat, and you hear someone else walking around upstairs, regardless of calling the police, you are still faced with the options of stay in basement, or leave the basement. If there is no outside entrance to the basement, then the only way out of the basement is toward the person/people who've broken into your home. Given those options, I'd stay in the basement. On a side note, you already know there are at least two people, so there is the chance that there are more, and going outside could be the same as going upstairs. That point is neither here nor there since we don't know if there was a door and a reasonable and prudent person may not assume they are under siege by a gang of people.
Secondly, its 1pm on Thanksgiving..... not typical armed robbery hours. I would of probably waited to see who it was before firing at someones legs, could of been anyone, but lets just say I am an idiot and I shot someone in the waist.... as they tumbled down the stairs, I walk over and realize that this is a young man, unarmed, myself or my wife would of phoned the police while I grabbed my IFAK. What are the typical armed robbery hours? Armed robbery suggests a premeditated offense where resistance may be encountered. You can't meet resistance if no one is home. 1pm on Thanksgiving is a safe bet someone could be there. They weren't armed anyway, so let's move on. In what situation do you wait to see who is in your home, when they've entered by breaking a window? It is not likely that it is your aunt with her pumpkin pie.
If while I was treating him I heard more footsteps, I would of dropped what I was doing and grabbed my fire arm... chances are he would of told me that it was his dumbass fawking cousin, I would of told them to stop moving. (escalation of force)... by this time I'm very sure police would of already been on the scene, probably before the girl was heard upstairs when 911 gets a phone call that someone is shot. When you heard glass breaking upstairs, you wanted to wait and see who it was. After you've shot an unarmed kid, and you hear a second set of footsteps, now is the time to grab your gun?
Here is what I think. Some low-life kids, broke into a low-life guy's house. He murdered them and now he is going to prison. That community has 3 less people to concern themselves with and you are way over thinking this whole thing.
IF, IF he dialed 911 while in progress yes. Waiting until the next day, the jury & media will have a field day with Premeditated.
If you are sitting a traffic light and get rear-ended, but you don't report the accident until 3 days later, does that make you at fault? Is there a law or statute that mandates that you must report that a crime has happened?
Great-Kazoo
11-29-2012, 00:18
If you are sitting a traffic light and get rear-ended, but you don't report the accident until 3 days later, does that make you at fault? Is there a law or statute that mandates that you must report that a crime has happened?
WTF a car accident vs 2 dead??????? When shots are fired inside your home, or anytime use of force is the only option, you bet.
WTF a car accident vs 2 dead??????? When shots are fired inside your home, or anytime use of force is the only option, you bet.
I'm struggling to see the significance of calling 911 in this situation. He openly admitted to killing them both, so whether he called 911 or not, is not going to swing his case one way or the other.
EDIT: I have to apologize for this thread. I got side tracked by the nitpicking, and then started to veer off on my own tangent thought that is better left discussed in its own thread. So again, one low-life murdered some other low-lifes. I'll stop nitpicking in this thread because I'm getting on my own nerves.
Great-Kazoo
11-29-2012, 00:30
I'm struggling to see the significance of calling 911 in this situation. He openly admitted to killing them both, so whether he called 911 or not, is not going to swing his case one way or the other.
Had he dialed 911 instead of waiting, THEN confessing instead of an Attorney he may have had a chance of a self defense situation. Instead he waited, then confessed w/out benefit of representation. Either way the shooter should be found guilty and spend his remaining time on this planet behind bars.
IF, IF he dialed 911 while in progress yes. Waiting until the next day, the jury & media will have a field day with Premeditated.
Yeah I can see that, but any good defense lawyer should be able to play it off as being shaken up, scared, not knowing what to do etc.
Premeditated in my mind is him going to their house, killing them there, breaking a window in his house, then dragging them downstairs and calling the next day.
at the end of the day, I hope he gets a good trial, the jury does their civic duty...and that's it. I won't lose any sleep over the guy, or the two home intruders. I know I would have done things different and that is enough for me.
i wonder if this was just a drug deal gone bad that got sorta covered up as a bugulary....why the hel wouldnt you call the police till the next day
Great-Kazoo
11-29-2012, 08:30
i wonder if this was just a drug deal gone bad that got sorta covered up as a bugulary....why the hel wouldnt you call the police till the next day
Wait until the DNA results come back. You think they have headlines now!
I'm out, I can't do this with you anymore Irving :P
Here is what I think. Some low-life kids, broke into a low-life guy's house. He murdered them and now he is going to prison. That community has 3 less people to concern themselves with and you are way over thinking this whole thing.
I think this is a pretty accurate assessment.
BushMasterBoy
11-29-2012, 12:37
It would have been a much better ending if the man had a big old dog, and the dog ate both of the bodies...
"Not guilty by reason of mental impairment."
That is what my Magic 8 Ball said. [GaGa]
"Not guilty by reason of mental impairment."
That is what my Magic 8 Ball said. [GaGa]
Where do I get the Legal Edition of the Magic 8 Ball? [Coffee]
Where do I get the Legal Edition of the Magic 8 Ball? [Coffee]
I got mine in the Home Game Version of the OJ Trial. The Magic 8 Ball is good, but my wife loves it when I dress up as Judge Ito and she dresses up as Marcia Clark. I get to overrule all of her objections [LOL]
I'm out, I can't do this with you anymore Irving :P
Too late. I already bailed before you. :p :p
i think we are going to find out EXACTLY what happened here
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/10/warrants-minnesota-homeowner-charged-in-teen-deaths-has-video-break-in-audio/?intcmp=obnetwork
thanks hbar there going to smoke that guy.....shoot to stop the threat
He's on trial
http://news.yahoo.com/prosecutor-minn-homeowner-lay-wait-teens-163213122.html
He's on trial
http://news.yahoo.com/prosecutor-minn-homeowner-lay-wait-teens-163213122.html
I was about to post something about zombie thread- but actually, this is not surprising... a little late (considering the national attention Zimmerman got), but I guess better late than never.
Waywardson174
04-23-2014, 22:26
More facts are always better, but to pull the second weapon for a "good clean finishing shot", seems like murder is the only word for the girls' death. Hungry for additional reports and pleadings...
I was good with his actions until I read that he dragged (both) the teens bodies onto a tarp. Then, further lost me with his putting the gun under the girls chin and firing a second shot. Of course, making ANY comments was the wrong move as well.
If he'd have left the bodies where they fell, called the police once he felt the threat was neutralized - without KILLING if it could be prevented (which may or may not have been the eventual result of the first shot to the girl, but the second shot was clearly uncalled for), I'd stand with this guy and he probably wouldn't have been arrested. Sadly, he took it way to far.
Side note:
Mini-14 jammed: anyone who's ever owned or shot one knows how common that is.
I think this assessment is spot on and I could not put it better except to add a......WTF!!!!
We'll he was found guilty of two counts first degree murder
http://gunsafetyblog.com/2014/04/30/seven-lessons-from-the-byron-smith-trial/
here is the audio from the shooting it's nsfw and horrible to listen to so be warned
http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/24cb22/the_audio_recording_of_byron_smith_killing_two_mn/
And a bad animation
http://us.tomonews.net/this-chilling-audio-recording-of-bryan-smith-executing-two-minnesota-teens-which-secured-his-murder-conviction-is-not-for-the-faint-hearted-82066389639168
I'm glad justice was served. Not a whole lot to learn from this case but at least there is some more evidence of what not to do if involved in a home invasion.
HoneyBadger
05-04-2014, 08:39
I'm glad justice was served. Not a whole lot to learn from this case but at least there is some more evidence of what not to do if involved in a home invasion.
Pro tip of the day: don't MURDER anybody. [Shake]
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