View Full Version : Ready to throw her under the bus?
Great-Kazoo
11-28-2012, 22:59
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/obama-couldn-t-prouder-susan-rice-212638546--politics.html
"Susan Rice is extraordinary. Couldn't be prouder of the job that she's done," Obama said ..
Anyone else hear the ominous background music?
a train would be better...more wheels!
Hope H.Clinton isn't leaving to get ready for 2016.
That makes me sick to my stomach.
Hope H.Clinton isn't leaving to get ready for 2016.
one would hope that people would see that if she cant keep her man happy and in check then she would make a bad potus
Bailey Guns
11-29-2012, 06:15
Is anyone besides me thinking Hillary Clinton would be a step up from our current president?
Is anyone besides me thinking Hillary Clinton would be a step up from our current president?
Yes, I agree with you.
Singlestack
11-29-2012, 07:27
Hillary is an Anti-2A globalist. She is all over the UN small arms treaty - which will probably be voted on next March (again). These people don't go away - they keep trying until they succeed.
i dont know why you guys hate obama so much . just think what the world would have missed out on , things like this little gem
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax-2i71bqGw
Bailey Guns
11-29-2012, 07:39
I'm thinking that video would've never been made under a Hillary presidency. That alone could cause me to vote for her.
ETA: Is it wrong that I fantasize about shooting Obama-phone bitch right in her phone hole?
Is it wrong that I fantasize about shooting Obama-phone bitch right in her phone hole?damn i just spit out some coffee [Coffee][LOL]
DD977GM2
11-29-2012, 08:24
Yep [facepalm]
Aloha_Shooter
11-29-2012, 09:27
During the run-up to the 2008 elections, I was sure Obama would overreach (I was right) and be seen for what he is -- an arrogant hardline race-baiting Socialist with no plan or ability to govern democratically in a free republic -- and consequently thrown out summarily as the Second Coming of Jimmy Carter (I was wrong). I don't think Obama is ready to throw Rice under the bus at the moment mainly because he wants to force his will on Congress (placing her as SecState) and rub the Republicans' face in it. He knows Harry Reid controls the Senate with an even more comfortable margin and the House has no say in the matter.
Is anyone besides me thinking Hillary Clinton would be a step up from our current president?
She certainly has more balls....
Obama is a socialist.... well hot damn. Back in the real world Obama is the the right of Nixon on many issues that you guys whine and call socialism. But the right wing has gone so far off the extreme cliff that anyone to the left of Newt is a socialist. Heck Reagan is more of one than Obama on many issues. You guys need to drop the "socialist" paranoia. Its the same as the gun guys crying wolf while holding a donate plate.
Obama is a socialist.... well hot damn. Back in the real world Obama is the the right of Nixon on many issues that you guys whine and call socialism. But the right wing has gone so far off the extreme cliff that anyone to the left of Newt is a socialist. Heck Reagan is more of one than Obama on many issues. You guys need to drop the "socialist" paranoia. Its the same as the gun guys crying wolf while holding a donate plate.do you think about the amount of retardedness you type before you hit enter or are you just looking to rustle feathers with your post ??
ether way im ok with it , i just want to know [pick-me]
No really, Obama is a socialist because he brought to fruiting the GOP plan for healthcare reform from the 90s?
http://i.imgur.com/vXgMt.jpg
So anyone who does not toe the conservative line is a troll? I guess that over 50% of the nation is a troll then.
DavieD55
11-29-2012, 10:03
^^^stop feeding the agitator.
see most folks here lean toward the right and you tend to spew leftist crap for no other reason than starting arguments , or it at least seems that way
Actually my views are very much in line with Eisenhower conservatism. Its just that the modern conservative movement is no longer conservative.
And I don't spew crap, I reply to crap that was spewed first. So don't blame people for defending themselves or punching back. That is like telling a CCW person to give up his right to self defense.
^^^stop feeding the agitator.[Beer]
HoneyBadger
11-29-2012, 10:14
nynco, why are you here?
Back to this whole Rice fake outrage...
A little history lesson if you will -
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/nynoah/AR15/198122_492861437413911_1392556585_n.jpg
HoneyBadger
11-29-2012, 10:30
nynco, why are you here?
nynco, why are you here?
This kinda frightens me... "Susan Rice is extraordinary. Couldn't be prouder of the job that she's done," Obama said. Prouder is not a word... I think the term he is looking for is "More proud." And this is a college educated man?
So anyone who does not toe the conservative line is a troll? I guess that over 50% of the nation is a troll then.
No, but you sure are!
HoneyBadger
11-29-2012, 10:38
[bad-banana]<<Liberalism
^^
nynco
[bad-banana]<<Liberalism
^^
nynco
this song is just for nynco and his trolling
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTqD7I3Dksw
HoneyBadger
11-29-2012, 10:49
Your coconut song reminded me of this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKE3dIrRIbg
Your coconut song reminded me of this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKE3dIrRIbg
[werdo] that is f*ck*ng wrong and you know it [LOL]
You guys seem to think about gay stuff a lot. Don't worry the Log Cabin Republicans have a place for you.
This kinda frightens me... "Susan Rice is extraordinary. Couldn't be prouder of the job that she's done," Obama said. Prouder is not a word... I think the term he is looking for is "More proud." And this is a college educated man?
No, but you sure are!
Ronin so far all I have done is offer a counter point and I get labeled as a troll for that.
ANADRILL
11-29-2012, 11:00
Obama is a socialist.... well hot damn. Back in the real world Obama is the the right of Nixon on many issues that you guys whine and call socialism. But the right wing has gone so far off the extreme cliff that anyone to the left of Newt is a socialist. Heck Reagan is more of one than Obama on many issues. You guys need to drop the "socialist" paranoia. Its the same as the gun guys crying wolf while holding a donate plate.
You must be one of the Libtards on the board....
Aloha_Shooter
11-29-2012, 11:09
The very existence of the Log Cabin Republicans disproves the liberal myth about GOP intolerance. Talk to Bob Casey about Democrat tolerance for alternative views.
In any event, those must be some very special pharmaceuticals you're taking to think Obama is to the right of Reagan or that you're espousing Eisenhower conservatism (Eisenhower was really a moderate but the left wing put their butts on the traditional political scales because their thumbs weren't enough and the right wing liked the view from the misaligned scales so I'll use the current terminology).
Yes, Obama IS a socialist. Why is he so afraid to admit it? I thought you were proud of the theft-based ideology? He's already said publicly that he believes in redistribution. He's pushing for tax rate increases on the "wealthy" even though empirical and historical evidence shows that reduces actual tax revenue collection. He's been pushing increased government control of private enterprise through increased regulation and executive orders.
It's rather funny watching Alan Colmes or Bob Beckel twist themselves in knots trying to explain how Obama ISN'T a socialist when his entire legislative history (what little of it there is) shows how his Marxist views contradict his centrist-sounding rhetoric.
In any event, I stand by my previously posted view that Obama isn't throwing Susan Rice under the bus but rather using her as a battering ram to prove his power and rhetoric against Republicans. He's smartly letting his proxies define the battleground with their lies about racism or sexism (Bush appointed the FIRST TWO African-American SecStates including the first female African American because he believed in their abilities rather than looking at their race but the GOP is racist ... yeah, that makes sense) just as he used the OWS crowd to falsely claim a 99%/1% population split.
HoneyBadger
11-29-2012, 11:09
[werdo] that is f*ck*ng wrong and you know it [LOL]
hahaha yep
You guys seem to think about gay stuff a lot. Don't worry the Log Cabin Republicans have a place for you.
Not sure what this means, but okay, go ahead and insinuate that I'm gay if that makes you feel better!
[ROFL2]
You guys seem to think about gay stuff a lot. nope only when i read your post
Inconel710
11-29-2012, 12:14
Back to the actual topic of this thread - The Wall Street Journal carried a good editorial today, questioning Susan Rice's performance at the UN
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324469304578145881558310020.html?m od=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop
Ronin so far all I have done is offer a counter point and I get labeled as a troll for that.
Wrong. You didn't just offer a counter point this one time, you have this mentality that the left can do no wrong and blindly defend the democratic party regardless of blatant wrongdoing. Meanwhile, you throw accusations that FNC is biased, wrong, and evil. Some of the most conservative folks on here are able to admit when the GOP does wrong (especially in their opinions of the GOP's latest performance in 2012), but no, you continue to defend the left with no real ground to stand on. "May the chains of [communist] bondage rest lightly upon your shoulders." I'll be one of many fighting the spread of communist/socialist ideals in this country.
PugnacAutMortem
11-29-2012, 13:53
Nynco...I think you get the troll label because you have 812 posts on this website, and I would be willing to bet that every last one of them are completely destructive to the topic being discussed. I would imagine all walks of life are welcome here, but if you're here just to cause trouble (as I would guess you are) then yes you are a troll.
Do you really need that much attention? Did you not get enough hugs as a child?[Cry]
ANADRILL
11-29-2012, 14:07
Yes, I agree with you.
No shes the same...just fully white...
HoneyBadger
11-29-2012, 14:17
Nynco...I think you get the troll label because you have 812 posts on this website, and I would be willing to bet that every last one of them are completely destructive to the topic being discussed. I would imagine all walks of life are welcome here, but if you're here just to cause trouble (as I would guess you are) then yes you are a troll.
Do you really need that much attention? Did you not get enough hugs as a child?[Cry]
Hahaha even the FNG gets it.. Get a clue nynco!
[pileoshit]
ANADRILL
11-29-2012, 14:20
nynco, why did you join a gun site, which is composed of a majority of conservatives? Do you even own a gun? Dude, grow up, grow a pair, and troll on AR15.com not here, this is not the place for liberal talking points, if I wanted to see the crap you post I would watch NBC/CBS/ABC...
Liberals in my eyes equal the cry baby kids & tattle tales from childhood. Life isn't fair, this ain't the freaking new york gay scene. Go push your pink commie crap somewhere else. From here on out, I consider you a pussy.
And people go around calling me a troll while others go around acting like bully kids. Yeah... No I don't go around here calling you all gay, a pussy, un american, a traitor, a fascist, a nazi or what ever. No that is what you all do to me. Mainly because you can't handle any view that is different than yours. If you ask me, the real pussies are people like you Anadrill and a few others that write all that knee jerk BS. So you may consider me a pussy, but I am the one that has more balls to be in place where there are little whiners like you trying to push me around.
Here is a picture of my AR
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/nynoah/AR15/DSC_9535.jpg
Aloha_Shooter
11-29-2012, 14:46
I don't doubt you have balls. It's your marbles I think are missing. [ROFL2]
No one is perfect and every day is a learning day[Beer]
ANADRILL
11-29-2012, 14:54
And people go around calling me a troll while others go around acting like bully kids. Yeah... No I don't go around here calling you all gay, a pussy, un american, a traitor, a fascist, a nazi or what ever. No that is what you all do to me. Mainly because you can't handle any view that is different than yours. If you ask me, the real pussies are people like you Anadrill and a few others that write all that knee jerk BS. So you may consider me a pussy, but I am the one that has more balls to be in place where there are little whiners like you trying to push me around.
Here is a picture of my AR
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/nynoah/AR15/DSC_9535.jpg
No you are just a pussy with an AR that doesn't even look like it's been shot...
KevDen2005
11-29-2012, 14:57
Is anyone besides me thinking Hillary Clinton would be a step up from our current president?
If I could go back in time knowing what I know today I would take her over what we have in a heartbeat. I am hoping, however, that she doesn't win if she gets nominated.
ANADRILL
11-29-2012, 14:58
your[facepalm][ROFL2]
Hey pussy you know you can get pink furniture right?
I would take Clinton over Obama. But really like neither. Bernie Sanders 2016 for the win[Bounce]
Hey pussy you can get pink furniture right?
Dude if you are trying to hit on me, I am not interested. Go check the log cabin boyz for that. Either that or take some time alone to ask yourself why you talk about gay stuff so much. We as a community will support you if you decide you have to be open with us about what is on your mind. Its ok...[Flower]
PugnacAutMortem
11-29-2012, 15:14
See nynco there's a good way and a not-so good way to go about having different ideas inside a like-minded community. See I'm a libertarian, so I'm to the right of some conservative issues, but I'm also to the left of some liberal issues. I can come here and talk about guns and things because that falls in line with my political beliefs. But what I don't do is come here and bitch at everyone because they're against gay marriage when I believe the government should allow people to do what they want to (regardless of what I actually believe on the subject).
Pick your battles Nynco. Pretty much everyone here thinks Obama is a socialist (myself included)...if you disagree you might wanna move along.
I will take your advice to heart. But many times it is people going after me first. If I do nothing then the bully thinks he is vindicated. As to Obama being a socialist, it simply is not true (factually speaking) but emotionally speaking that boogy man socialist stuff sells.
PugnacAutMortem
11-29-2012, 15:22
I will take your advice to heart. But many times it is people going after me first. If I do nothing then the bully thinks he is vindicated. As to Obama being a socialist, it simply is not true (factually speaking) but emotionally speaking that boogy man socialist stuff sells.
See it's little barbs like that one that piss people off. Factually, you can't say one way or the other. The only way FACTUALLY to know 100% for sure that Obama is a socialist is for the words to come directly out of his mouth on live TV. Your OPINION is that he's not, the general consensus around here is that he is.
And by the way...anytime you say anything and the put "but" after it, you completely dismiss what you said beforehand. It's like saying "honey, I really do love you...but I'm leaving you".
Obama is to the right of darn near every European politician. He is the the right of their right wingers on most all issues too. The great socialist healthcare take over was nothing more than the CATO institute's 1990s healthcare plan and Romney Care brought to the national level. Pretty much no matter what Obama does, the extreme right wing will label him as a socialist. Its a sad parody. One that I think is cover just like for Clinton while Clinton signed NAFTA, GATT and China Free Trade. The point is, the real things that matter and not the stuff that makes people pee their bed crying socialist, are far worse.
PugnacAutMortem
11-29-2012, 16:11
Obama is to the right of darn near every European politician. He is the the right of their right wingers on most all issues too. The great socialist healthcare take over was nothing more than the CATO institute's 1990s healthcare plan and Romney Care brought to the national level. Pretty much no matter what Obama does, the extreme right wing will label him as a socialist. Its a sad parody. One that I think is cover just like for Clinton while Clinton signed NAFTA, GATT and China Free Trade. The point is, the real things that matter and not the stuff that makes people pee their bed crying socialist, are far worse.
Um...well I tried defending you and speaking cordially...but that was the biggest hunk of useless word-vomit I might have ever encountered.
Edit: I like the smileys...so [Puke]nynco
And people go around calling me a troll while others go around acting like bully kids. Yeah... No I don't go around here calling you all gay, a pussy, un american, a traitor, a fascist, a nazi or what ever. No that is what you all do to me. Mainly because you can't handle any view that is different than yours.
Woah woah woah! I never once called you gay, a pussy, un-american, traitor, facist or nazi... I can't speak for everyone, but I have not called you anything that wasn't true. Mostly just libtard, which is accurate, just like you call us whatever derogatory term for conservatives that you use (I don't have the time to go back and look at what you called us a number of times). I invite you to actually go back and re-read what I posted, how you blindly defend your gods, I mean democrats. :D
And I think they call it "mentally retarded" when someone jumps into the wolves den, not ballsy. [facepalm]
And as I said before- you're not just presenting a different opinion- it's the way you present it, and your unwillingness to admit when you're wrong, and when your party is wrong (which as of late has been quite frequent). And for the record, when former Soviet Union residents are saying Obama is a communist/socialist, considering they lived there, we didn't, I would be willing to bet 1/2 my paycheck this week that they're a little more informed on the topic than you are.
Oh and question, WTFF is this Log cabin business nynco keeps bringing up? Is that like libspeak for trying to paint conservatives as gay or something? I don't get it. [Eek3]
PugnacAutMortem
11-29-2012, 16:39
Oh and question, WTFF is this Log cabin business nynco keeps bringing up? Is that like libspeak for trying to paint conservatives as gay or something? I don't get it. [Eek3]
I would google it because I'm curious as well...but I'm scared to lol. Don't need a whole bunch of log cabin dong flying around my screen at work.
Log Cabin Republicans. I thought you guys would know that these people exist. Though they are a glutton for punishment lately.
http://www.logcabin.org/site/c.nsKSL7PMLpF/b.5468093/k.BE4C/Home.htm
Ronin - I did not mean to infer that you called me all those things. I am sorry if you thought so. I personally will only counter attack after I have been attacked. I am not here to demean people. But I will stick up for myself. Which is what I would expect from anyone. If it seems like I am doing that, its because I am getting shit from all directions. Including you in the past. BUT I have noticed that you (Ronin) have stopped acting that way for the most part. I don't hold a grudge, well I try not to, so treat me like you would want me to treat you and its all good and in the past. Life is too short for petty name calling to mean much in the long term.
Now as to the use of Nazi, Fascist and what not. Well to me those words are just as bad as calling some one a Commie. Esp when that person is not a Commie, but instead just an American with views that are all over the place like many people. I don't like Authoritarian Commies, they are no better than all Authoritarians (a term that fits left, right or center) that have killed many for insane ideological reasons.
spqrzilla
11-29-2012, 16:56
Susan Rice is completely incompetent - which seems to be the main distinguishing feature of the Obama administration. Fundamental incompetence, lapsed ethics and corruption.
I would not choose her. But the GOP tactic they are using is just downright dangerous and hypocritical. I think Rice is too nice personally. But then again, I think Obama and most of the Dems lack a spine too.
spqrzilla
11-29-2012, 17:03
There is nothing "dangerous and hypocritical" about requiring Susan Rice to answer questions about her conduct in the office of Ambassador to the UN when she made the rounds of TV talk shows and knowingly lied to the American public. That's a moronic claim.
There is when people like John McCain are holding press conferences pandering to the Faux News crowd demanding that Obama give more information.... WHILE AT THE SAME EXACT MOMENT Obama is giving a classified brief to people on just that issue. McCain and many others are doing this to show boat and score political points with the anti Obama crowd not to govern for the people.
spqrzilla
11-29-2012, 17:11
The Obama administration tried to float a lie about the attack on the Benghazi consulate - to cover up the failure of their Libya policy. Lying versus showboating ... I know which is worse.
Troublco
11-29-2012, 17:11
Back to this whole Rice fake outrage...
A little history lesson if you will -
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/nynoah/AR15/198122_492861437413911_1392556585_n.jpg
Funny...I don't remember anyone talking about how, during the incidents you show above, anyone sat there and watched it on video from a UAV and still opted to allow those people to die. Or that requests for additional security were denied, resulting in those people's deaths. Those otherwise small details that make the difference between happening on your watch, and happening because you made a choice to do nothing.
I'm really trying to figure out how you can say Obama is as right as you claim he is. And the claims that he's right of many right-wing European politicians...really doesn't mean anything. They're European. We're not. They don't have our Constitution.
PugnacAutMortem
11-29-2012, 17:13
There is when people like John McCain are holding press conferences pandering to the Faux News crowd demanding that Obama give more information.... WHILE AT THE SAME EXACT MOMENT Obama is giving a classified brief to people on just that issue. McCain and many others are doing this to show boat and score political points with the anti Obama crowd not to govern for the people.
In the words of the great modern philosopher Lil' John...
"WWWWWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAT??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?"
I apologize to all of you for trying to give genuine advice to nynco. It has become clear that was completely useless.
Seriously what did you want Obama to do start strafing the place with a Drone? That would be really bad for the nation and might even trigger a 3rd world war. International incidents and diplomacy issues are not the type of things to just go around like a bull in a china shop. There are bigger things at play. I also think that it is unfair to say that boots should have been on the ground faster than 2 hours. Its physically not possible to do that. People are not stationed in that country or that close. We don't have teleporters yet.
You want to know why the GOP is doing this. Because THEY the GOP pushed for cuts in the funding for embassy protection for the last few years. Its classic blame the other guy before someone looks at you.
And yes McCain did just that, but the right wing will never tell you that John was acting like a fool.
Log Cabin Republicans. I thought you guys would know that these people exist. Though they are a glutton for punishment lately.
http://www.logcabin.org/site/c.nsKSL7PMLpF/b.5468093/k.BE4C/Home.htm
Ronin - I did not mean to infer that you called me all those things. I am sorry if you thought so. I personally will only counter attack after I have been attacked. I am not here to demean people. But I will stick up for myself. Which is what I would expect from anyone. If it seems like I am doing that, its because I am getting shit from all directions. Including you in the past. BUT I have noticed that you (Ronin) have stopped acting that way for the most part. I don't hold a grudge, well I try not to, so treat me like you would want me to treat you and its all good and in the past. Life is too short for petty name calling to mean much in the long term.
Now as to the use of Nazi, Fascist and what not. Well to me those words are just as bad as calling some one a Commie. Esp when that person is not a Commie, but instead just an American with views that are all over the place like many people. I don't like Authoritarian Commies, they are no better than all Authoritarians (a term that fits left, right or center) that have killed many for insane ideological reasons.
Ok, so log cabin republicans just happen to be gay republicans... BFD. I'd be more concerned with the 'swinging dick in your face' liberals that currently make up the majority of the population in San Francisco... you can't tell me that a big group of them are republican, conservatives don't act like that!
As for your commie comment, granted I didn't get into politics or really pay attention until about 2003, so I'm not as new, but one of the first things studied in my freshman Political Science class was Marxist and Leninist Communism- our professor was a bit of an expert in it as he had a PhD in Poly Sci and an emphasis in the study of Communism (he was also fmr CIA during the 1970's and early 1980's). He took great pride in teaching us the dangers of communism, and even went as far to say that democratic ideals are dangerously close to crossing over into communist mentality. I haven't spoken with him in years, but on Nov. 7th, in a successful attempt to see if he remembered me, I sent an email asking his opinion of the current direction of our country. He replied with simply "Obama, whether he says so or not, is a devout student of Communism. I've been studying communists since before graduating college in 1968, and if he is not a communist, then I am the reincarnation of Thomas Payne." Again, like I said earlier, when people who lived under Soviet rule call democrats communists today, and they would know, then it's probably not too far off by calling people commies when they display those ideals.
PugnacAutMortem
11-29-2012, 17:24
As for your commie comment, granted I didn't get into politics or really pay attention until about 2003, so I'm not as new, but one of the first things studied in my freshman Political Science class was Marxist and Leninist Communism- our professor was a bit of an expert in it as he had a PhD in Poly Sci and an emphasis in the study of Communism (he was also fmr CIA during the 1970's and early 1980's). He took great pride in teaching us the dangers of communism, and even went as far to say that democratic ideals are dangerously close to crossing over into communist mentality. I haven't spoken with him in years, but on Nov. 7th, in a successful attempt to see if he remembered me, I sent an email asking his opinion of the current direction of our country. He replied with simply "Obama, whether he says so or not, is a devout student of Communism. I've been studying communists since before graduating college in 1968, and if he is not a communist, then I am the reincarnation of Thomas Payne." Again, like I said earlier, when people who lived under Soviet rule call democrats communists today, and they would know, then it's probably not too far off by calling people commies when they display those ideals.
I just don't see how you couldn't be a communist if you were mentored by nothing but communists and socialists throughout your formative years. That kind of political thinking isn't one that you just grow out of.
spqrzilla
11-29-2012, 17:27
nynco, we already had been intervening militarily in Libya. Have you not heard? It was in all the f'ing newspapers.
Further, there were specops forces just 2 hours flight time away on Italian airbases. Again, this was in all the news.
But the question remains why has Obama and his administration been lying to us.
spqrzilla
11-29-2012, 17:29
You want to know why the GOP is doing this. Because THEY the GOP pushed for cuts in the funding for embassy protection for the last few years. Its classic blame the other guy before someone looks at you.
And yes McCain did just that, but the right wing will never tell you that John was acting like a fool.
There was no shortage of funding for the State department. This is another lie from Obama supporters that you repeat in your ignorance. A trolling lie that you repeat to avoid the real controversy - Why did Obama lie to the American people? Why did Susan Rice repeat lies she knew were lies?
And if there was a cut in funding for embassy security, then take the costs out of the budget for providing Valerie Jarrett Secret Service protection.
Please communist and socialists are not the same thing. Second you could fit a meeting of the Communist party of America in a phone booth. That never stops the right wing from crying wolf about it though. I personally would rather have a leader who has listened to all sides and not one who never learns about the full spectrum. Example a Norway Socialist is no where near a Russian Communist. I think the labels and demonizing are there for people who need a constant enemy in order for them to make sense of the world.
Ronin, I think your professor has some personal scars that cloud his judgement. That or the job he held self selected for an extremist personality (which is part of CIA intake testing). I think A LOT of people are really falling for the propaganda and letting their personal fears and demons paint those things onto those they appose.
Obama is Wallstreets boy... WAY far away from being a communist. But the commie socialist stuff is used to give him cover so he can do what Wallstreet wants. I makes the left defend Obama regardless of how much he sucks Wallstreet titans off. How many people have gone to jail over the melt down? NONE... what a commie...
spqrzilla
11-29-2012, 17:32
See, in all the newspapers ... even the New York Times noticed that we were attacking with aircraft in Libya - where was the war that that started? Oh, yeah ... the one where our Benghazi consulate was attacked.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/20/world/africa/20libya.html?pagewanted=all
There was no shortage of funding for the State department.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/10/jason-chaffetz-embassy_n_1954912.html
See, in all the newspapers ... even the New York Times noticed that we were attacking with aircraft in Libya - where was the war that that started? Oh, yeah ... the one where our Benghazi consulate was attacked.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/20/world/africa/20libya.html?pagewanted=all
Boots on the ground tends to send a far different message than air support. Don't ask me why, but that is just how it is. I think the whole situation was a cluster fuck. But battle is never pretty and arm chair quaterbacks like to think so.
Aloha_Shooter
11-29-2012, 17:41
nynco, cut down on the meds. Trigger a 3rd world war? Seriously?
Here's what I would have wanted Obama to do:
1. Respond to the ambassador's concerns by ramping up security at one of the most dangerous consulates in the world.
2. Increase the security posture on the 11th anniversary of 9/11
3. On first report of trouble, mobilize assets so they got some close air support 3-4 hours after first report of the hostile forces. At least take out the damned mortars that they were getting voice-reports and laser spotting on. Y'know, the mortars that killed the two guys on the roof who were actually trying to save lives?
4. Tell the damned truth.
5. Tell the Damned Truth.
6. Tell the DAMNED TRUTH.
Defending your diplomats from armed attack has always been justified and has never caused international incidents or diplomatic issues. It's never been viewed as being a bull in a China shop until we got idiots in charge of the administration and State Department. However, NOT defending your diplomats IS bad for the nation as it gives the adversaries a moral victory and energizes their efforts against us. Taking no action and going to bed as guys are dying SEVEN HOURS first reports of trouble (while getting live voice and video feeds) then flying off to a fundraiser is beyond gutless and reprehensible. It should be criminal.
Aloha, I agree for the most part. It was a cluster fuck. But I think the way the GOP is handling this is more for personal political gain than for doing the right thing.
Aloha_Shooter
11-29-2012, 17:45
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/10/jason-chaffetz-embassy_n_1954912.html
That's a load of BS. Overall funding to the State Department was cut for a variety of reasons but they had TONS of funding to address security problems at the worst spots. The State Department were the ones who decided it was more important to spend that funding on fluff rather than providing security for a consulate in one of the worst spots in the world. That's sheer incompetence -- or conniving to make political points (like how Clinton chose to shut down National Parks during the budget standoff with Gingrich rather than shut down useless unnoticeable activities like the Dept of Education, EPA, etc. for a few weeks) in which case it should be regarded as a High Crime or Misdemeanor.
ChunkyMonkey
11-29-2012, 17:47
Aloha, I agree for the most part. It was a cluster fuck. But I think the way the GOP is handling this is more for personal political gain than for doing the right thing.
I hope that doesn't stop you from wanting to know the truth. Whatever the reasons are, everyone has the right to the truth. This gov is worse than Bush when it comes to transparency.
spqrzilla
11-29-2012, 17:49
Boots on the ground tends to send a far different message than air support. Don't ask me why, but that is just how it is. I think the whole situation was a cluster fuck. But battle is never pretty and arm chair quaterbacks like to think so.
Do you really think people fall for the dishonest comments you make? You attacked the idea of using armed drones to aid the defenders of the consulate with the claim that it would start a war. That was you being the "arm chair quaterback". When I point out the silliness of the statement, you pretend you were talking about "boots on the ground". An equally silly statement since we had CIA "boots on the ground" already but an intentionally dishonest silly statement on your part.
I hope that doesn't stop you from wanting to know the truth. Whatever the reasons are, everyone has the right to the truth. This gov is worse than Bush when it comes to transparency.
Agreed except the Bush part. To me sunshine is the best disinfectant. But part of that sunshine is we need to have an opposition that wants to do the right thing rather than only what is best for their party. You can't make it work unless both sides are trying to do the right thing.
spqrzilla
11-29-2012, 17:50
Aloha, I agree for the most part. It was a cluster fuck. But I think the way the GOP is handling this is more for personal political gain than for doing the right thing.
Obama - and his supporters - "handle" this by lying, by shouting "squirrel" about irrelevant things, and by pretending that its all a racist attack on Susan Rice.
No one falls for these dishonest rhetorical tricks you engage in.
spqrzilla
11-29-2012, 17:51
Agreed except the Bush part. To me sunshine is the best disinfectant. But part of that sunshine is we need to have an opposition that wants to do the right thing rather than only what is best for their party. You can't make it work unless both sides are trying to do the right thing.
Sunshine is the best disinfectant? Another example of why you are lucky that you can't die from irony poisoning.
Do you really think people fall for the dishonest comments you make? You attacked the idea of using armed drones to aid the defenders of the consulate with the claim that it would start a war. That was you being the "arm chair quaterback". When I point out the silliness of the statement, you pretend you were talking about "boots on the ground". An equally silly statement since we had CIA "boots on the ground" already but an intentionally dishonest silly statement on your part.
I personally think that if we used armed drones that, that action would have been used by our enemies to do more damage to the nation. It would be playing into their hands. As to the CIA asset, I don't expect one or even a few guys lightly armed to save the day. I think that Obama was afraid to escalate, which in hind sight to many was wrong (arm chair quarterbacking)
Sunshine is the best disinfectant? Another example of why you are lucky that you can't die from irony poisoning.
Dude WTF, I am agree with you guys and you still attack me for it? Pick your battles better and learn to see when people are agreeing with you better.
spqrzilla
11-29-2012, 17:53
nynco, you don't even admit that your comment was dishonest.
That's why people here can't stand you. Not your opinions, your dishonest rhetoric.
Sunshine is the best disinfection... meaning Obama needs to be more open like Monkey opined about transparency. Get it?
I think A LOT of people are really falling for the propaganda and letting their personal fears and demons paint those things onto those they appose.
Says the mouthpiece for the liberal propaganda regime. [ROFL1]
Dear lord... here it goes again. Everyone gang up
Troublco
11-29-2012, 19:57
Huffington Post can't really be considered very reliable. And you think the Dems are doing the right thing here, or something even close? Changing stories, disinformation, distraction, and so on.
And really, nynco, you have to consider that most folks on this forum are decidedly NOT sympathetic to left-of-center politics, or what you would consider "centrist" from what I can tell. I mean, you go on about how Obama is "to the right" of all sorts of examples. So when you come in here and start defending Obama, Reid, Pelosi, Boxer, and Schumer's policies and desires you have to expect that you're going to get some pushback from that. I find it a bit amusing that you are (or make a show of being) surprised about that. When you walk into a lion's den wearing a steak suit you have to expect some attention.
Surprised no, I understand and expect that. But I offer a view that is different and I will explain myself when I can. (like many others) I just take issue with missuse of terms, like evil "socialist" stuff.
The very existence of the Log Cabin Republicans disproves the liberal myth about GOP intolerance.
Then why don't they just hang out with the rest of the Republicans.
Aloha_Shooter
11-29-2012, 21:12
Then why don't they just hang out with the rest of the Republicans.
They do.
spqrzilla
11-29-2012, 21:13
Yah, we quit making them wear pink triangles last year.
There are tons of log cabin Republicans 99% of them are still in the closet... like Rove or the preacher in Co Springs with his meth man boy toy and many others. Its a regular thing in the news when they are caught. Most of the time they are the most vocal anti gay people. Repression causes a lot of mental issues... but hey what eva[ROFL2]
JohnnyEgo
11-29-2012, 21:44
If you understand the tenor of the conversation, do not care to be attacked or insulted, and come here because of a shared common interest in guns, then why comment in the political threads? You know you think differently then the bulk of this particular community on this particular issue. You know the reaction you are going to get. You profess your angst about the way you are treated, yet persist in repeating the same actions. Do you know what they say about repeating the same actions but expecting different results?
As an outside observer, though not an impartial one, I also have to say that you bring up homosexuality a lot. Usually as a non-sequitur or a defense mechanism. It's tedious, immature, and undercuts any point you are trying to make. Of what pertinence is the political affiliation of homosexuals to the topic this thread? If it is something you want to discuss, why not start your own thread?
I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. Its the other garbage.
As to the gay stuff... I was commenting on someone elses fascination for it. Then others asked me what the hell the Log Cabin Republicans were. I could care less about it. But if someone attacks me, I will reply. Just don't blame me for their ship.
All I did was tell you to shove a coconut up your butt , it was you who brought up the gay crap .
ANADRILL
11-30-2012, 10:34
I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. Its the other garbage.
As to the gay stuff... I was commenting on someone elses fascination for it. Then others asked me what the hell the Log Cabin Republicans were. I could care less about it. But if someone attacks me, I will reply. Just don't blame me for their ship.
nynco = pussy
Awe look I have a pathetic stalker now and you guys call me a troll.[werdo]
nynco- just to clarify- there really isn't that big of a difference between socialism and communism- socialism is an economic system, communism is an economic and governmental system. Either way, both involve state ownership of property and workforce, and both are not free market economies, both are not the way we do things here in this country, and if we ever do, both have been proven to be colossal failures. And by your thinking Obama wasn't brought up around and embraces communism, you are sadly ill-informed. And your assumption (I can only guess you're assuming, because it's blatantly inaccurate) that the American Communist Party can fit into a phone booth is way off base- there are more in this nation that embrace and support communism that anyone here would like to admit... it's a growing population, and most of them don't even know it... In fact, most democrats, without knowing the way it works, are communist supporters. Anyone living off of welfare with no desire to get off the system are, for lack of a better term, communists, whether they admit it or not. Anyone who supports this democratic ideal that everyone be paid their fair share, and everyone pay their fair share, and that the government can run our lives better than we can, are in fact, communist supporters, whether they knowingly admit it or not. You may disagree, but the fact remains, and I'm going to call a spade a spade and not beat around the bush, the modern "progressive" movement, and democratic party is in at least some way supportive of communism as a form of government here in America, if not 100% then at least somewhat.
ThunderSquirrel
11-30-2012, 11:42
http://www.realclearsports.com/blognetwork/buccaneer_bow_shots/train-wreck.jpg
Ronin the world is not black and white. I will say that markets with no rules, what you guys call free are just as bad if not worse than what you fear.
PugnacAutMortem
11-30-2012, 11:45
http://www.realclearsports.com/blognetwork/buccaneer_bow_shots/train-wreck.jpg
"Yeah that looks good, just set all of that shit down right there. We've got a happy hour to make."
Ronin the world is not black and white. I will say that markets with no rules, what you guys call free are just as bad if not worse than what you fear.
I'm aware the world isn't black and white... There are rules, and you seem to be very disgruntled towards wallstreet... what's wrong? Did you get tazed at your occupy rally? At least in this "abusive" market I get to keep what I make (mostly) and can buy what I want. Under communism/socialism, I wouldn't get the choice between Top Ramen and Maruchan, it would all be USG branded ramen. Oh and guns aren't allowed.
All the happiest countries in the world are what you would call socialist. Seems to be something is not as you think. Guns mean nothing to this debate. Totally unrelated subject. Example it is legal and encouraged to use a silencer in Scandinavian countries all of which are what you would label as socialist. The insane right wing terrorist shooter of Norway had assault weapons. So they are not banned in socialist countries. Stop buying into the black and white world view that all socialism is bad. Because I think our socialist roads, fire depts and COUNTLESS other things are what makes this a great nation. We need more of that.
PugnacAutMortem
11-30-2012, 14:35
All the happiest countries in the world are what you would call socialist. Seems to be something is not as you think. Guns mean nothing to this debate. Totally unrelated subject. Example it is legal and encouraged to use a silencer in Scandinavian countries all of which are what you would label as socialist. The insane right wing terrorist shooter of Norway had assault weapons. So they are not banned in socialist countries. Stop buying into the black and white world view that all socialism is bad. Because I think our socialist roads, fire depts and COUNTLESS other things are what makes this a great nation. We need more of that.
Ok I'm gonna hafta call bullshit on that. Come on man...put down the MSNBC talking points pamphlets and take your head out of your ass. There hasn't been a successful socialist nor communist country in the history of the world. You can argue all you want...and any data supporting your opinion is too short-sighted to show the real picture.
All the happiest countries in the world are what you would call socialist. Seems to be something is not as you think. Guns mean nothing to this debate. Totally unrelated subject. Example it is legal and encouraged to use a silencer in Scandinavian countries all of which are what you would label as socialist. The insane right wing terrorist shooter of Norway had assault weapons. So they are not banned in socialist countries. Stop buying into the black and white world view that all socialism is bad. Because I think our socialist roads, fire depts and COUNTLESS other things are what makes this a great nation. We need more of that.
You say I'm thinking in black and white, but you present an argument that is plainly black and white- social programs does not make a country socialist. 1930's/40's Germany was a socialist country. 1917-1989 Russia was a communist country. Norway has many social programs, but they are not exactly an extreme example (like Nazi Germany) of a socialist nation. Fire Departments, roads, etc. here are not socialist, you must be obsessed with your 4th point of contact, because your head is all the way up it!
ETA: Pugnac posted as I was typing out my response, but I find it utterly hilarious that we both think nynco's head is up his ass... [ROFL1][Beer]
Read away from a right wing source too
http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2011/12/07/the-worlds-happiest-and-saddest-countries/
Norway, Denmark, Australia, New Zealand, Sweden, Canada, Finland, Switzerland, the Netherlands and Finland. The US just barely cracks into it at number 10. Which in years past were at something like 18 (the Bush years).
PugnacAutMortem
11-30-2012, 14:44
Read away from a right wing source too
http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2011/12/07/the-worlds-happiest-and-saddest-countries/
Norway, Denmark, Australia, New Zealand, Sweden, Canada, Finland, Switzerland, the Netherlands and Finland. The US just barely cracks into it at number 10. Which in years past were at something like 18 (the Bush years).
[facepalm][facepalm][facepalm][facepalm][facepalm][facepalm][facepalm][facepalm][facepalm][facepalm][facepalm]
There is no hope for you nynco. No hope at all. You really should work on your reading comprehension.
You say I'm thinking in black and white, but you present an argument that is plainly black and white- social programs does not make a country socialist. 1930's/40's Germany was a socialist country. 1917-1989 Russia was a communist country. Norway has many social programs, but they are not exactly an extreme example (like Nazi Germany) of a socialist nation. Fire Departments, roads, etc. here are not socialist, you must be obsessed with your 4th point of contact, because your head is all the way up it!
ETA: Pugnac posted as I was typing out my response, but I find it utterly hilarious that we both think nynco's head is up his ass... [ROFL1][Beer]
Bingo not exactly an extreme example. Just like Obama is not an extreme communist or "socialist" like you fear. He is to the right of damn near every politician in the Scandinavian Countries on economic issues and most all social issues. Norway has almost twice the entreprenuer rate as the US. Seems those "socialist" "commies" up there are more capitalist than we are.
[facepalm][facepalm][facepalm][facepalm][facepalm][facepalm][facepalm][facepalm][facepalm][facepalm][facepalm]
There is no hope for you nynco. No hope at all. You really should work on your reading comprehension.
I offer you proof with facts you give nothing in return but your opinion based on what? your feelings? and you say there is no hope for me. Look in the mirror
http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/in-norway-start-ups-say-ja-to-socialism.html
PugnacAutMortem
11-30-2012, 14:52
Bingo not exactly an extreme example. Just like Obama is not an extreme communist or "socialist" like you fear. He is to the right of damn near every politician in the Scandinavian Countries on economic issues and most all social issues. Norway has almost twice the entreprenuer rate as the US. Seems those "socialist" "commies" up there are more capitalist than we are.
I offer you proof with facts you give nothing in return but your opinion based on what? your feelings? and you say there is no hope for me. Look in the mirror
http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/in-norway-start-ups-say-ja-to-socialism.html
You are the worst broken record I have ever seen...[Bang]
All that was missing from those other two posts was how bad Fox News is.
So far Pug all you have in a reply is to attack me personally. I just gave you proof of my assertions, your reply is that I am hopeless... for what using facts?
Shootersfab
11-30-2012, 14:57
So far Pug all you have in a reply is to attack me personally. I just gave you proof of my assertions, your reply is that I am hopeless... for what using facts?
For what,(comma) using facts?
PugnacAutMortem
11-30-2012, 14:58
So far Pug all you have in a reply is to attack me personally. I just gave you proof of my assertions, your reply is that I am hopeless... for what using facts?
No you gave me opinions of other people masquerading as proof. You need to look up the word "proof" in the dictionary.
Shootersfab, please click on the links that provide facts. The whole tired mime that Obama is a closet communist Moaist whatever is not serving our nation well. Esp when the countries that are more socialist than we are are doing a better job of making a functional society than we are.
No you gave me opinions of other people masquerading as proof. You need to look up the word "proof" in the dictionary.
I bet you never even clicked the links. Either that or you have some kind of mental block that will not let the facts compute. The 10 happiest countries in the world based on the opinions of the people who live there and a few other measures as done by right wing Forbse magazine backs up my assertions.
The link to the Inc.com article on "socialist" Norway that shows that they have an almost double rate of entrepreneurs than the US; Is factual proof that the tired mime of socialist = communist or anti-capitalist is dead.
Shootersfab
11-30-2012, 15:03
Shootersfab, please click on the links that provide facts. The whole tired mime that Obama is a closet communist Moaist whatever is not serving our nation well. Esp when the countries that are more socialist than we are are doing a better job of making a functional society than we are.
Correction on your grammatical error, calm down bucco!!!
Since you're correcting others.........
PugnacAutMortem
11-30-2012, 15:04
Nynco...you have proven yourself to be the epitome of a libtard. You can't be reasoned with, you offer opinions as unabashed truth and in general you are a complete idiot. Thank you for your sterling depiction of a libtard. Now we all know for certain what kind of characteristics to keep an eye out for.
Now go away.
Correction on your grammatical error, calm down bucco!!!
Honestly, I need to work on that and always welcome constructive help/criticism. Thank you
Nynco...you have proven yourself to be the epitome of a libtard. You can't be reasoned with, you offer opinions as unabashed truth and in general you are a complete idiot. Thank you for your sterling depiction of a libtard. Now we all know for certain what kind of characteristics to keep an eye out for.
Now go away.
I don't think you can handle the truth. Which by your replies seems to be the case.
DavieD55
11-30-2012, 15:06
I bet you never even clicked the links. Either that or you have some kind of mental block that will not let the facts compute. The 10 happiest countries in the world based on the opinions of the people who live there and a few other measures as done by right wing Forbse magazine backs up my assertions.
The link to the Inc.com article on "socialist" Norway that shows that they have an almost double rate of entrepreneurs than the US; Is factual proof that the tired mime of socialist = communist or anti-capitalist is dead.
Maybe you should move to one of those happy places then, Instead of trying to force your political beliefs onto everyone else.
Maybe I want to help my nation to become a better place. Just like you do.
PugnacAutMortem
11-30-2012, 15:08
Maybe you should move to one of those happy places then, Instead of trying to force your political beliefs onto everyone else.
No he wouldn't get the attention over there that he gets here.
Read away from a right wing source too
http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2011/12/07/the-worlds-happiest-and-saddest-countries/
Norway, Denmark, Australia, New Zealand, Sweden, Canada, Finland, Switzerland, the Netherlands and Finland. The US just barely cracks into it at number 10. Which in years past were at something like 18 (the Bush years).
6 Pages!? TL-DR.
I'll say this- Canada: Socialized healthcare, NOT socialist economy. Australia= NOT socialist economy. Whoever you are getting these "facts" from obviously doesn't know what socialism is... and clearly you don't either. Socialism goes beyond just a few social programs and socialized healthcare... In a truly socialist nation entrepreneurship is not as easy as it is in Norway, Norway is not a truly socialist country.
True socialists advocate a completely classless society, where the government controls all means of production and distribution of goods. Socialists believe this control is necessary to eliminate competition among the people and put everyone on a level playing field. Socialism is also characterized by the absence of private property. The idea is that if everyone works, everyone will reap the same benefits and prosper equally. Therefore, everyone receives equal earnings, medical care and other necessities.
That quote, taken from here: http://money.howstuffworks.com/socialism1.htm basically does away with the American idea of ambition. If I'm working at a job and someone is making the same wages as I am, but works 1/2 as hard, what drive is there for me to work 2x as hard? None. In true socialism, there is no rank system among the workers, it's equal all the way around. People claim we have a socialist system in our own military- that is so far from the truth I could gag. We have ranks in the military, and pay raises through those ranks, it's no different than working at a construction company where you work your way up from laborer to supervisor, to manager, etc. That's capitalism.
Shootersfab
11-30-2012, 15:09
Honestly, I need to work on that and always welcome constructive help/criticism. Thank you
Thank you. (Period)
PugnacAutMortem
11-30-2012, 15:09
Maybe I want to help my nation to become a better place. Just like you do.
I can guarantee you without a SHADOW OF A DOUBT...if you left this nation would be better off.
Maybe I want to help my nation to become a better place. Just like you do.
Socialism/Communism won't achieve that... Socialism only works until you run out of other people's money.
Ok Ronin... heres the fun. I agree with you on the socialist stuff. Now take that line of logic you used and use the same re Obama. Obama is to the right of damn near all the "socialists" of Norway. He just passed a healthcare reform act that is damn near word for word the GOP plan from the 90s. What are you guys afraid of?
PugnacAutMortem
11-30-2012, 15:11
When I get off of this 30 day FNG thing...I would love a "nynco hunter" title lol
Socialism/Communism won't achieve that... Socialism only works until you run out of other people's money.
Its obviously working out well in all those countries that were in the link. In fact their economies are growing at twice the rate of ours and have been for a LONG time. Again Ronin, I see you as reasonable. Just keep on reading and learning with an open mind. I use to buy into the black and white evil "socialism" stuff years ago.
ThunderSquirrel
11-30-2012, 15:15
This sums it up...
http://gardengoatquote.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/floats-your-goat.jpg?w=409&h=341
Now we can move on.
When I get off of this 30 day FNG thing...I would love a "nynco hunter" title lol
Really, are going to be like that? I thought you were a libertarian that liked to use logic and reason. So use some. Ronin use to detest me. But I don't see him acting like that anymore. I don't expect you or everyone to like me. But I will challenge you and I am sure you will me.
The Goat picture made me chuckle.
Ok Ronin... heres the fun. I agree with you on the socialist stuff. Now take that line of logic you used and use the same re Obama. Obama is to the right of damn near all the "socialists" of Norway. He just passed a healthcare reform act that is damn near word for word the GOP plan from the 90s. What are you guys afraid of?
Broken record...
No, Obama is not RIGHT of anything... he's maybe a bit right of Stalin and Lenin, but that's about it. He is a student of Frank Marshall Davis- a well known Communist. He supports this Robin Hood mentality of take from the rich, give to the poor. The GOP healthcare plan from the 90's? WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? I've never heard of the GOP proposing a plan that makes opting out of having health insurance taxable. I've never heard of them toeing the line of nationalized, single payer healthcare. I'm afraid of our country becoming the next USSR. I'm afraid of stupidity and narrow-mindedness like yours spreading like a damn virus through the entire population. I'm afraid your bias and hatred of Fox News, and all things conservative has made you a complete mental case.
Its obviously working out well in all those countries that were in the link. In fact their economies are growing at twice the rate of ours and have been for a LONG time. Again Ronin, I see you as reasonable. Just keep on reading and learning with an open mind. I use to buy into the black and white evil "socialism" stuff years ago.
Here- go here: mscd.edu, go take a couple reading classes so we can work on your comprehension. I clearly said IT'S NOT BLACK AND WHITE, I also said NORWAY AND THOSE OTHER COUNTRIES ARE NOT TRUE BLUE SOCIALIST NATIONS. Here you go, a simple definition of socialism for you, since you seem to take whatever the media says and think it's gold: "Socialism is the collective ownership by all the people of the factories, mills, mines, railroads, land and all other instruments of production." Norway, Finland, all those countries are not there.
Shootersfab
11-30-2012, 15:19
Ok Ronin... heres the fun. I agree with you on the socialist stuff. Now take that line of logic you used and use the same re Obama. Obama is to the right of damn near all the "socialists" of Norway. He just passed a healthcare reform act that is damn near word for word the GOP plan from the 90s. What are you guys afraid of?
Im afraid of how many of those tacticool additions on your avatar, I am going to pay for....
Your welcome.
PugnacAutMortem
11-30-2012, 15:21
Really, are going to be like that? I thought you were a libertarian that liked to use logic and reason. So use some. Ronin use to detest me. But I don't see him acting like that anymore. I don't expect you or everyone to like me. But I will challenge you and I am sure you will me.
The Goat picture made me chuckle.
Oh I do use logic and reason. As it were that is exactly what you lack. If you did, you would realize that logically everything that you say is either a liberal talking point or makes you reasonably insane. You're a socialist...we get it. Nobody (at least to my knowledge) else is here. You are a pilgrim in an unholy land. You're right I do detest you, because you are the absolute incarnate of a stupid liberal. I have some liberal friends who are brilliant and can actually explain their positions logically and rationally. You just can't understand anything that anyone says on here, then you get butthurt when we call you out on your stupidity. You play the victim card, which funny enough is another tell-tale sign of a liberal idiot.
Just be done with it. Move on and go somewhere where you are wanted. I'm done with you. I have a very small resivoir for stupidity and you have mine bursting at the seams the past few days.
DavieD55
11-30-2012, 15:22
Socialism/Communism won't achieve that... Socialism only works until you run out of other people's money.
nynco wants the whole united states to look like Kalifonia.
Ronin Ronin Ronin... you slipped back into it. We are not going to become the USSR. Its never going to happen. Moving this country at little more in the direction of places like Norway is by your own admission not the same thing. Read the article I posted about Norway. I have to say that after living in Europe for over half a decade, I am not afraid of us becoming the USSR.
Now the assertion that Obamacare is the GOP healthcare solution from the 90's. It pretty much is. I remember the debate when Clintoon was in office. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/15/health/policy/health-care-mandate-was-first-backed-by-conservatives.html
Also stop with the personal attacks Ronin. I am not doing that to you, in fact I am complimenting you. As to Faux news... well sorry, I look at them with disdain. They are a "news" company who's 2nd largest stock owner is a Saudi Prince, an organization that fought in court and won the right to WILLINGLY lie. They are a propaganda outlet that makes Pravda look like pikers.
nynco wants the whole united states to look like Kalifonia.
No I don't. I don't like Kalifornia's draconian gun laws or broken tax structure.
Oh I do use logic and reason. As it were that is exactly what you lack. If you did, you would realize that logically everything that you say is either a liberal talking point or makes you reasonably insane. You're a socialist...we get it. Nobody (at least to my knowledge) else is here. You are a pilgrim in an unholy land. You're right I do detest you, because you are the absolute incarnate of a stupid liberal. I have some liberal friends who are brilliant and can actually explain their positions logically and rationally. You just can't understand anything that anyone says on here, then you get butthurt when we call you out on your stupidity. You play the victim card, which funny enough is another tell-tale sign of a liberal idiot.
Just be done with it. Move on and go somewhere where you are wanted. I'm done with you. I have a very small resivoir for stupidity and you have mine bursting at the seams the past few days.
If you are using logic, apparently its not being posted here. Because so far, the only thing you did was attack me personally. Then you said you refuse to believe the facts I posted. Did you post a counter argument nope. You just let loose your feelings about me. So far it's a onc sided debate with you throwing a temper tantrum. So if you are going to go on like that, then at least try to be like you claim.
DavieD55
11-30-2012, 15:30
Ok Ronin... heres the fun. I agree with you on the socialist stuff. Now take that line of logic you used and use the same re Obama. Obama is to the right of damn near all the "socialists" of Norway. He just passed a healthcare reform act that is damn near word for word the GOP plan from the 90s. What are you guys afraid of?
American politics are different than european politics, You're trying to compare two totally different things.
I am not disagreeing that it is different. That does not mean that we can not learn from other peoples mistakes or success. I fully expect for things to be our own unique flavor. Don't just dismiss things by simply saying we are different.
DavieD55
11-30-2012, 15:39
I am not disagreeing that it is different. That does not mean that we can not learn from other peoples mistakes or success. I fully expect for things to be our own unique flavor. Don't just dismiss things by simply saying we are different.
America already is a unique flavor, It's been that way for a long time now. You dont even know what the hell you're talking about.
Well if you don't know what I am talking about, read some of the previous post between others and I.
Shootersfab
11-30-2012, 15:46
Well if you don't know what I am talking about, read some of the previous post between I am others.
Between others and myself!!!!!!!!
Fawk
Between others and myself!!!!!!!!
Fawk
Fixed and it was supposed to read "I and others". Which as you rightly pointed out was backwards. I wish my grammar was better. I type fast and don't always see things that are wrong on the first proof read.
Which if you go back and see some of my posts there are edits. Most of the time it is because I reread what I wrote later and found my mistakes. It is a conscientious effort to self improve.
Also stop with the personal attacks Ronin. I am not doing that to you, in fact I am complimenting you. As to Faux news... well sorry, I look at them with disdain. They are a "news" company who's 2nd largest stock owner is a Saudi Prince, an organization that fought in court and won the right to WILLINGLY lie. They are a propaganda outlet that makes Pravda look like pikers.
Personal attacks? Just my observations- I said you were narrow minded, and clearly you are. So instead of "faux news" do you, by your own admission, endorse MSNBC, CNN, and ABC News? They're much worse transgressors in terms of "news" and bias. I don't see where you're getting this idea that FNC is propaganda, they have much more journalistic credibility in my book than any other "major" news outlet in this nation. Furthermore, BFD if they're biased to the right more than the others, all the rest of the "news" out there is so slanted to the left my ears bleed if it's on the TV.
Oh, and for the record, Pravada hasn't been a source of "propaganda" since the fall of the USSR. They're now a pretty legitimate news agency, kind of like the BBC. Almost forgot, Pravada called your messiah, Barry Obama/Sotoro/Marshall-Davis a communist... I think I believe them.
Ronin I apologize, I got you and Pug confused for a second.
The Media Can Legally Lie
By Mike Gaddy
Writer for lewrockwell.com (http://lewrockwell.com/).In February 2003, a Florida Court of Appeals unanimously agreed with an assertion by FOX News that there is no rule against distorting or falsifying the news in the United States.
http://www.relfe.com/media_can_legally_lie.html
It is also a fact that the second largest share holder of Faux News is a Saudi Prince. You know the same country that sent the 911 hijackers too us.
Shootersfab
11-30-2012, 15:55
Ronin I apologize, I got you and Pug confused for a second.
I think you're confused for more than a second. [werdo]
Yeah but I will admit when I am wrong, thank those who helped me and try to treat every day as a learning day.
Here, this is for everyone- What is Socialism? Let's actually ask the Socialists:
http://www.slp.org/what_is.htm
Ok Ronin so why is moving the US a little more towards Norway bad, when by your own admission that Norway is not socialist like you think. I think you are starting to see the holes in the logic here. Just think on it more.
DavieD55
11-30-2012, 16:04
We already have a degree of socialism in our country and it is failing.
Ok Ronin so why is moving the US a little more towards Norway bad, when by your own admission that Norway is not socialist like you think. I think you are starting to see the holes in the logic here. Just think on it more.
I refer you to this:
American politics are different than european politics, You're trying to compare two totally different things.
Can't explain it any better... Also, you're a good dancer- do you ever address directly what's posted? Again, not trying to further "gang up on you," but you're quite skilled in directing the convo away from what's discussed by others, and not directly answering or addressing what's stated. I asked a question, would you do me the kindness of asking? (See Post #153)
Its failing? Please point to factual proof of your assertion.
Its failing? Please point to factual proof of your assertion.
How about this:
http://www.cato.org/research/pr-nd-st.html
Ronin I never endorsed the others like you think. I think they are all full of garbage for the most part. But I think the biggest pile of dung is Faux News. I try to get my news from as many sources as possible and look for facts as best I can. I posted two reasons why I think Faux News is a propaganda outlet. 1 they fought for the right in court to willingly lie. 2 they are partially owned by a Saudi Prince who bankrolls countless things that are not in the best interests of the US but are in the interests of the Saudi Nation. I personally think that NO ONE BUT A US CITIZEN should be legally allowed to own a news outlet that uses the public airwaves to broadcast. I stand by that stand for any news outlet not just Faux.
If you want to know who I do like. Check out Thom Hartmann. I learn a great deal from his show. But he is not news persay, but he covers new stories he thinks are important.
did I answer your 153 post well or do I need to do better?
How about this:
http://www.cato.org/research/pr-nd-st.html
OK I don't think that is right. But that is just further proof that the min wage is broken. Not that we should take food away from poor children. An honest days work should pay a living wage. Its more proof that the cost of living in Hawaii is F'ed up and that a normal job will leave you impoverished.
PugnacAutMortem
11-30-2012, 16:17
Ok Ronin so why is moving the US a little more towards Norway bad, when by your own admission that Norway is not socialist like you think. I think you are starting to see the holes in the logic here. Just think on it more.
You act as if you're some great political thinker...
[hahhah-no]
PugnacAutMortem
11-30-2012, 16:18
OK I don't think that is right. But that is just further proof that the min wage is broken. Not that we should take food away from poor children. An honest days work should pay a living wage. Its more proof that the cost of living in Hawaii is F'ed up and that a normal job will leave you impoverished.
And there you are dismissing facts because they don't fit your political ideals. Hypocrite.
Seriously Pug. I just agreed that it was wrong and you say I am dismissing facts? Pick your battles better.
DavieD55
11-30-2012, 16:21
You act as if you're some great political thinker...
[hahhah-no]
That is funny, I was just thinking that very same thing. LOL
What because challenged someone to think....ooooo how un-American
PugnacAutMortem
11-30-2012, 16:25
What because challenged someone to think....ooooo how un-American
Holy fucking dog shit...I literally cannot believe how awful your reading comprehension is...
Shootersfab
11-30-2012, 16:26
[Hang]
Oh go on nynco...........
Holy fucking dog shit...I literally cannot believe how awful your reading comprehension is...
Apparently you have a hard time with many things, including facts. It must be related to that "I literally cannot believe" mental block. Typos must be too much for you to handle huh[blah-blah]
DavieD55
11-30-2012, 16:31
What because challenged someone to think....ooooo how un-American
We already have a system in place. Our system was never designed to be a socialist one. You are asking for a socialist system to take the place of our already capitali$t system. You are asking for a lot of problems with a very bad outcome. You do not understand what it is you're asking for.
Shootersfab
11-30-2012, 16:32
Apparently you have a hard time with many things, including facts. It must be related to that "I literally cannot believe" mental block. Typos must be too much for you to handle huh[blah-blah]
Really? You are going to call people out on typos???????????????
OK I don't think that is right. But that is just further proof that the min wage is broken. Not that we should take food away from poor children. An honest days work should pay a living wage. Its more proof that the cost of living in Hawaii is F'ed up and that a normal job will leave you impoverished.
You asked for evidence that the degree of socialist systems in America are broken, if you don't like the answer, don't ask the question. It's not that working a normal job will leave you impoverished that's the issue here, it's the fact that welfare pays better in most US states (including this one right here) than a regular, entry level, unskilled job, thus no one wants to take a pay cut to get off of welfare. Unskilled jobs, with no education or training, don't pay well, and most people I've seen on welfare are barely even qualified to ask "Do you want fries with that?" The problem is not the pay, it's the payee, so many lazy people out there. If I were a business owner, and some guy who had been on welfare for 7 years came to me looking for a job and demanded I pay him equal or more than welfare, and I felt he didn't fit the bill to earn that much to start, I'd offer him commensurate to what his labor was worth and allow him to work his way up. That is problem number one with the joblessness here, too many people feel they're work is worth more than it really is and don't want to start at the bottom and work their way up.
Shooter, I called myself out for the typo. Try to read without your emotional disdain for me, it makes you want to jump on me for anything even if I did not say or do that.
You asked for evidence that the degree of socialist systems in America are broken, if you don't like the answer, don't ask the question. It's not that working a normal job will leave you impoverished that's the issue here, it's the fact that welfare pays better in most US states (including this one right here) than a regular, entry level, unskilled job, thus no one wants to take a pay cut to get off of welfare. Unskilled jobs, with no education or training, don't pay well, and most people I've seen on welfare are barely even qualified to ask "Do you want fries with that?" The problem is not the pay, it's the payee, so many lazy people out there. If I were a business owner, and some guy who had been on welfare for 7 years came to me looking for a job and demanded I pay him equal or more than welfare, and I felt he didn't fit the bill to earn that much to start, I'd offer him commensurate to what his labor was worth and allow him to work his way up. That is problem number one with the joblessness here, too many people feel they're work is worth more than it really is and don't want to start at the bottom and work their way up.
Ronin the reason the payment was so high was because it was Hawaii. 36K there is poverty. I brought up the problem with wages because it is intertwined. If a person regardless of skill level can not live off an honest job then what do you want them to do? Die? No one has the right to have a business let alone the right to incorporate. If those business can not afford to pay a living wage then they should go out of business and I am sure another business will come along and fill the demand and do it just fine. Costco proves that the Wallmart idea is wrong.
PugnacAutMortem
11-30-2012, 16:38
Apparently you have a hard time with many things, including facts. It must be related to that "I literally cannot believe" mental block. Typos must be too much for you to handle huh[blah-blah]
I think I am dumber because I've engaged you on any level. I have to go back at least 3 levels of comments to get to any sort of root issue that you couldn't understand.
nynco =[Smart]
You have to go back 3 levels because that far back you stopped engaging in any sort of relevant conversation. That is when you decided to use personal attacks and spurn using facts. So as a famous right wing politician said... "Blame yourself"
PugnacAutMortem
11-30-2012, 16:43
You have to go back 3 levels because that far back you stopped engaging in any sort of relevant conversation. That is when you decided to use personal attacks and spurn using facts. So as a famous right wing politician said... "Blame yourself"
Do you know why I stopped attempting to engage you? Because it's abso-fucking-lutely useless. There's no engaging you, it's just like throwing shit at a teflon wall. Not a damn thing is going to stick...
You really do eat this shit up don't you? Shame on me for feeding into your psychotic desire for negative attention. Shame, shame on me.
Ronin the reason the payment was so high was because it was Hawaii. 36K there is poverty. I brought up the problem with wages because it is intertwined. If a person regardless of skill level can not live off an honest job then what do you want them to do? Die? No one has the right to have a business let alone the right to incorporate. If those business can not afford to pay a living wage then they should go out of business and I am sure another business will come along and fill the demand and do it just fine. Costco proves that the Wallmart idea is wrong.
No one has the right to have a business? What is this? Soviet Russia. Whatever you say Comrade. If I choose to pay an uneducated, unskilled worker minimum wage, that's legal, and it's what many businesses do... hell, my first job was $5.50/hr back when minimum wage was $5.15/hr. Sure I couldn't live on my own with that kind of pay unless I took on two jobs, but I was 15 at the time and I earned every penny to save up for my first car. If someone were to come to me, if I were a business owner, and ask for a job, and I looked at their work history and education and they had next to nothing of either, I would offer them an entry level position at just above minimum wage. Am I wrong for that? No. I would prefer someone with either education, or experience, or both. If that didn't happen, I'd give the entry level employee the opportunity to work and show me that they were worth hiring, and over time I'd give them raises commensurate to how well they performed and benefited my business.
No Ronin no one has the right to incorporate or have an LLC if they do not play by the law or the rules. We need to change the law to make it so an honest days work = a living wage. The min wage of the 1960s would be 16 dollars in todays dollars. Just think how much better people would be if that was the min wage. Our economy would boom from all the demand increase.
There sure is a lot of herpin' and derpin' going on in this thread
No one has the right to have a business? What is this? Soviet Russia. Whatever you say Comrade. If I choose to pay an uneducated, unskilled worker minimum wage, that's legal, and it's what many businesses do... hell, my first job was $5.50/hr back when minimum wage was $5.15/hr. Sure I couldn't live on my own with that kind of pay unless I took on two jobs, but I was 15 at the time and I earned every penny to save up for my first car. If someone were to come to me, if I were a business owner, and ask for a job, and I looked at their work history and education and they had next to nothing of either, I would offer them an entry level position at just above minimum wage. Am I wrong for that? No. I would prefer someone with either education, or experience, or both. If that didn't happen, I'd give the entry level employee the opportunity to work and show me that they were worth hiring, and over time I'd give them raises commensurate to how well they performed and benefited my business.
Dude you spend all day in your dads office posting on this website. You're not exactly a shining example of someone who's pay is commensurate with the amount of work they do.
PugnacAutMortem
11-30-2012, 17:00
Dude you spend all day in your dads office posting on this website. You're not exactly a shining example of someone who's pay is commensurate with the amount of work they do.
Who says you have to work every waking second of every day? If my job only requires me to get x done every single day...and I can get that done in 4 hours instead of 9...then whats the problem with that? Yours is a poor example, and that's actually not even what Ronin said. If I can get more work done than someone else in less time than they do it...then my performance is higher than theirs.
Who says you have to work every waking second of every day? If my job only requires me to get x done every single day...and I can get that done in 4 hours instead of 9...then whats the problem with that? Yours is a poor example, and that's actually not even what Ronin said. If I can get more work done than someone else in less time than they do it...then my performance is higher than theirs.
Stay here longer than 30 days proby and see how much work Ronin does at his dads office
Who says you have to work every waking second of every day? If my job only requires me to get x done every single day...and I can get that done in 4 hours instead of 9...then whats the problem with that? Yours is a poor example, and that's actually not even what Ronin said. If I can get more work done than someone else in less time than they do it...then my performance is higher than theirs.
Agreed
And I have no clue about Ronin and his work stuff. That is his business and I have no reason to berate him for it.
spqrzilla
11-30-2012, 17:07
Ronin I never endorsed the others like you think. I think they are all full of garbage for the most part. But I think the biggest pile of dung is Faux News. I try to get my news from as many sources as possible and look for facts as best I can.
You attack Fox News and then support your arguments with Huffington Post. And that's just one example of your continuous dishonest rhetoric. I've shown other examples in this and other threads where you misrepresent, outright fabricate and when caught, you shuck and jive. You do not "look for facts" at all but repeat long discredited spin and outright lies.
No Ronin no one has the right to incorporate or have an LLC if they do not play by the law or the rules. We need to change the law to make it so an honest days work = a living wage. The min wage of the 1960s would be 16 dollars in todays dollars. Just think how much better people would be if that was the min wage. Our economy would boom from all the demand increase.
Also to add an addendum. If someone wants to work without the gov protections of an LLC or corporate form, but instead as a soul proprietor without any business entity, then I think they should not be forced to pay people the min wage. They are not operating under an artificial gov created entity. They have the right to do business as they please. But that also puts A LOT MORE RISK on themselves. There is a reason incorporation was created. In order to enjoy those benefits, those businesses/people have to follow the law. One law is the min wage. Which needs to be increased to reflect to true cost of living for an employee. Walmart employees are paid so bad that in many cases they are on many forms of welfare to make up for what the company does not pay. That company is costing taxpayers a lot more than it is worth.
You attack Fox News and then support your arguments with Huffington Post. And that's just one example of your continuous dishonest rhetoric. I've shown other examples in this and other threads where you misrepresent, outright fabricate and when caught, you shuck and jive. You do not "look for facts" at all but repeat long discredited spin and outright lies.
Did I ever say that Huff post was the end all be all. Don't put words in my mouth. Also, go ahead and PROVE what I said is wrong. Use facts... have at it.
Rucker61
11-30-2012, 17:15
I don't think that anyone here is willing to personally accept the standard of living that welfare offers. I've seen claims here that minimum wage offers a lower standard of living than welfare, which is one reason that so many people stick with it.
If this is the case, what can we do to create enough jobs to allow for an acceptable standard of living? Manufacturing jobs used to be the outlet for unskilled labor to move to skilled labor, but those have move offshore, and they aren't coming back. Regardless of how we think the politicians need to act to create jobs, what jobs are we actually thinking can be created for the folks currently on welfare? If we want them off welfare, that means meaningful employment. What can this country offer?
Alternatively, let's assume that we only need to offer jobs roughly equivalent in standard of living to the current welfare population. What jobs would those be? In the cases of single parents, how do we think a balance between wages and childcare can be met? Let's not politicize this, but look at it from a strictly economic view. What jobs would these be?
PugnacAutMortem
11-30-2012, 17:16
Stay here longer than 30 days proby and see how much work Ronin does at his dads office
Again, who cares. If he is still employed then he's doing a satisfactory job. Plus what's your problem with that? Doesn't hurt you any does it?
Manufacturing jobs used to be the outlet for unskilled labor to move to skilled labor, but those have move offshore, and they aren't coming back.
I agree with everything you said Rucker except that part. I think that if we returned to the CONSTITUTIONALLY MANDATED power of congress to regulate impost and excise taxes (meaning a tariff system) that we would see manufacturing return. "Free"trade is destroying our nation by causing all manufacturing to go to over seas. God help us if we go to war. We can't manufacture enough to win. This "Free"trade stuff is weaking this nations ability to provide for itself and will be our undoing unless we go back to what the Constitution said is supposed to happen.
spqrzilla
11-30-2012, 17:28
Did I ever say that Huff post was the end all be all. Don't put words in my mouth. Also, go ahead and PROVE what I said is wrong. Use facts... have at it.
I've disproven your assertions on many occasions and you've just ignored it and continued to make the same fabrications.
Its why you have no credibility.
ChunkyMonkey
11-30-2012, 17:29
Stop quoting each other please. You all are ruining the whole point of ignore list. LOL
PugnacAutMortem
11-30-2012, 17:29
Stop quoting each other please. You all are ruining the whole point of ignore list. LOL
[ROFL3]
spqrzilla
11-30-2012, 17:30
I agree with everything you said Rucker except that part. I think that if we returned to the CONSTITUTIONALLY MANDATED power of congress to regulate impost and excise taxes (meaning a tariff system) that we would see manufacturing return. "Free"trade is destroying our nation by causing all manufacturing to go to over seas. God help us if we go to war. We can't manufacture enough to win. This "Free"trade stuff is weaking this nations ability to provide for itself and will be our undoing unless we go back to what the Constitution said is supposed to happen.
Another false statement. The Constitution does not mandate that tariffs be imposed.
Are you unable to read simple English? That Congress has a power does not mandate that it exercise it. The people who wrote the Constitution knew how to write mandates, and did so, in clear English.
Ironically Chunky, I have posted that I agree with you. You won't see this, that is your choice. But putting someone on the ignore list is rather childish.
Rucker61
11-30-2012, 17:31
I agree with everything you said Rucker except that part. I think that if we returned to the CONSTITUTIONALLY MANDATED power of congress to regulate impost and excise taxes (meaning a tariff system) that we would see manufacturing return. "Free"trade is destroying our nation by causing all manufacturing to go to over seas. God help us if we go to war. We can't manufacture enough to win. This "Free"trade stuff is weaking this nations ability to provide for itself and will be our undoing unless we go back to what the Constitution said is supposed to happen.
Most economic studies I'm familiar with show that raising tariffs to protect a non-competitive domestic economy adversely impact the previous export and the economy that imposes those tariffs. I think you also presume that the increase in cost of consumer goods won't have much impact on demand. Americans are used to and demand extremely low prices on consumer goods. Jumping retail prices by 2x or more would hurt the economy, not help it.
Those US companies would also be limited to the US market for their goods, as they could not compete world-wide. No major manufacture wants to let someone else have the BRIC customers.
Lastly, those trade restrictions would likely draw retaliation. Does Boeing want to give up sales to China and India?
Rucker61
11-30-2012, 17:32
Another false statement. The Constitution does not mandate that tariffs be imposed.
Are you unable to read simple English? That Congress has a power does not mandate that it exercise it. The people who wrote the Constitution knew how to write mandates, and did so, in clear English.
As I read his statement, he said exactly the same thing as you state here, except that he wants Congress to exercise it.
Another false statement. The Constitution does not mandate that tariffs be imposed.
Are you unable to read simple English? That Congress has a power does not mandate that it exercise it. The people who wrote the Constitution knew how to write mandates, and did so, in clear English.
No they mandate that as one of the powers of congress. Congress has instead chosen to abdicate those duties to the WTO and the many other unelected bodies that regulate trade on our behalf.
If you want to read what the founding fathers had to say about tariffs and trade, read away. This is a link to a piece that has Alexander Hamiltons 11 points of trade. Which was the basic frame work that was in place till Reagan and Clintoon dismantled it.
http://www.thomhartmann.com/blog/2008/12/alexander-hamilton
spqrzilla
11-30-2012, 17:34
No, Rucker, nynco has been making the argument that since Congress has a power, if it does not exercise it, its unconstitutional action and a breach of the congressman's duty. Here and another thread.
Its a looney argument based on fundamental lack of reading comprehension.
ChunkyMonkey
11-30-2012, 17:35
Ironically Chunky, I have posted that I agree with you. You won't see this, that is your choice. But putting someone on the ignore list is rather childish.
You always feel so important, dont ya. Relax.. there are some of your posts that I felt like you were trolling - other than those, you aren't more special than many of our in house libs.
spqrzilla
11-30-2012, 17:35
No they mandate that as one of the powers of congress. Congress has instead chosen to abdicate those duties to the WTO and the many other unelected bodies that regulate trade on our behalf.
Fundamentally false statement on your part. The Constitution does not "mandate" a power. It creates a power. It in some very narrow places "mandates" action. The latter is not true in Art 1 Section 8 at all.
Basic English reading skills. You lack them.
Most economic studies I'm familiar with show that raising tariffs to protect a non-competitive domestic economy adversely impact the previous export and the economy that imposes those tariffs. I think you also presume that the increase in cost of consumer goods won't have much impact on demand. Americans are used to and demand extremely low prices on consumer goods. Jumping retail prices by 2x or more would hurt the economy, not help it.
Those US companies would also be limited to the US market for their goods, as they could not compete world-wide. No major manufacture wants to let someone else have the BRIC customers.
Lastly, those trade restrictions would likely draw retaliation. Does Boeing want to give up sales to China and India?
The increasing cost of consumer goods will drive manufacture to return back this nation. All forms of long term sustainable economic growth are based on manufacture as written about by countless economic theorist including Adam Smith. An economy based on service is an economy in decline as seen today. All economies based on manufacture are ones that are growing at a healthier rate and economies that don't need massive debt to keep them afloat.
Fundamentally false statement on your part. The Constitution does not "mandate" a power. It creates a power. It in some very narrow places "mandates" action. The latter is not true in Art 1 Section 8 at all.
Basic English reading skills. You lack them.
If congress is giving their constitutional powers over to an un-elected body (WTO) then that is abdicating and shirking the constitutional mandate.
You always feel so important, dont ya. Relax.. there are some of your posts that I felt like you were trolling - other than those, you aren't more special than many of our in house libs.
No Chunky I am not special. I just think that using the ignore list is childish. Esp when people feel the need to announce it to the world.
Rucker61
11-30-2012, 17:45
The increasing cost of consumer goods will drive manufacture to return back this nation. All forms of long term sustainable economic growth are based on manufacture as written about by countless economic theorist including Adam Smith. An economy based on service is an economy in decline as seen today. All economies based on manufacture are ones that are growing at a healthier rate and economies that don't need massive debt to keep them afloat.
That presumes that demand will continue to match supply. I don't see that happening. I don't see investors getting the same rate of return on manufacturing in the US for the US market as they would taking that money overseas to service the rest of the world. Look up "effect of tariffs on the economy". The incentive for manufacturing isn't to create jobs. It's to make money, more money than you can investing that capital somewhere else. Manufacture of consumer goods in the US will never come back. Raising tariffs on imports will do more harm to the economy than it will help.
If those investors want to access US markets, then they will have to play by those rules. If they want to invest in other parts of the world and not import into America, then that is their discretion. But the money earned overseas will be subject to US taxes like it was all the way until Reagan. If we make tariffs equal the cost benefits of manufacturing overseas, then there is no benefit to off shoring US manufacturing (like it was for 200 years). Manufacturing will return when those two factors are equal. It will also ensure that US workers are paid better which will then spur more demand for products. Again simple Adam Smith stuff. In fact if you read the whole invisible hand quote by Adam Smith, he talks about just that prior to the that famous line.
ChunkyMonkey
11-30-2012, 17:53
No Chunky I am not special. I just think that using the ignore list is childish. Esp when people feel the need to announce it to the world.
Yep as childish as those who has the need to feel he is right no matter what. One would think he would have rise to the next level and move on.
Rucker61
11-30-2012, 18:18
If those investors want to access US markets, then they will have to play by those rules. If they want to invest in other parts of the world and not import into America, then that is their discretion. But the money earned overseas will be subject to US taxes like it was all the way until Reagan. If we make tariffs equal the cost benefits of manufacturing overseas, then there is no benefit to off shoring US manufacturing (like it was for 200 years). Manufacturing will return when those two factors are equal. It will also ensure that US workers are paid better which will then spur more demand for products. Again simple Adam Smith stuff. In fact if you read the whole invisible hand quote by Adam Smith, he talks about just that prior to the that famous line.
Let me see if I understand your proposal. The government decides to impose tariffs on a basket of goods (all goods? some goods?) currently manufactured overseas. I presume that there has to be a period of investigation to determine just what the tariff rates need to be to create the future balance, and some study of future market conditions to plan for consumer behavior in this new high-cost world. Then comes the announcement, that on D-Day tariffs will be imposed on all goods in the basket. Once the date is announced, this should drive Capital to start investing in infrastructure for this new manufacturing economy. Plants will have to be built, workers trained, sub-suppliers created and contracted, new fabs built (in compliance with local environmental laws), raw materials purchased and schedules, marketing efforts begun, etc. Just how long do you think it will take to achieve balance in the system, from the announcement to full production and shipment?
Once the factories are up and running, unless there is just one company with a monopoly, we'll have price competition, as the market will be in shock. With a unprecedented jump in demand for materials, construction and infrastructure, the major knob to turn for cost competitiveness will be labor, so no huge new middle class bump. Meanwhile, everyone who is importing is bringing in immense amounts of inventory at the pre-tariff rate prior to D-Day. Consumers are buying now, not then, as they know prices will be jumping after D-Day. Folks will decide to get buy on one flat screen per house, not four.
Let me know what your search on "tariffs effect on the economy" pulls up.
Pancho Villa
11-30-2012, 18:20
Trade wars always end well.
Always.
Let me see if I understand your proposal. The government decides to impose tariffs on a basket of goods (all goods? some goods?) currently manufactured overseas. I presume that there has to be a period of investigation to determine just what the tariff rates need to be to create the future balance, and some study of future market conditions to plan for consumer behavior in this new high-cost world. Then comes the announcement, that on D-Day tariffs will be imposed on all goods in the basket. Once the date is announced, this should drive Capital to start investing in infrastructure for this new manufacturing economy. Plants will have to be built, workers trained, sub-suppliers created and contracted, new fabs built (in compliance with local environmental laws), raw materials purchased and schedules, marketing efforts begun, etc. Just how long do you think it will take to achieve balance in the system, from the announcement to full production and shipment?
Once the factories are up and running, unless there is just one company with a monopoly, we'll have price competition, as the market will be in shock. With a unprecedented jump in demand for materials, construction and infrastructure, the major knob to turn for cost competitiveness will be labor, so no huge new middle class bump. Meanwhile, everyone who is importing is bringing in immense amounts of inventory at the pre-tariff rate prior to D-Day. Consumers are buying now, not then, as they know prices will be jumping after D-Day. Folks will decide to get buy on one flat screen per house, not four.
Let me know what your search on "tariffs effect on the economy" pulls up.
That would be exactly what was done in all of the US's history up until Reagan started to dismantle it. It worked great our nation grew to become a super power. Only when we stopped doing just that did our nation start to falter like today. So yeah, history shows that it worked and worked well.
Again Rucker read what Alexander Hamilton had to say.
http://www.thomhartmann.com/blog/2008/12/alexander-hamilton
Trade wars always end well.
Always.
What do you think is happening right now with China and currency manipulation? Or with Europe and their VAT tax? Those are all forms of tariff and trade manipulations. They are fighting for their economies and skewing the playing field. We are the only idiots that are not looking out for our own national best interests. I further expect that ALL nations would naturally look out for their own best interests just like we need to do for the US.
Pancho Villa
11-30-2012, 18:27
What do you think is happening right now with China and currency manipulation? Or with Europe and their VAT tax? Those are all forms of tariff and trade manipulations. They are fighting for their economies and skewing the playing field. We are the only idiots that are not looking out for our own national best interests. I further expect that ALL nations would naturally look out for their own best interests just like we need to do for the US.
Okay. I am no longer interested in engaging you on this subject.
I hope you have a nice evening.
Rucker61
11-30-2012, 18:36
That would be exactly what was done in all of the US's history up until Reagan started to dismantle it. It worked great our nation grew to become a super power. Only when we stopped doing just that did our nation start to falter like today. So yeah, history shows that it worked and worked well.
We didn't have the same market and manufacturing conditions then as we do now. I still haven't seen anything from you about all of the studies in modern times about "tariff effects on economy". Here are a couple:
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/economics/08/tariff-trade-barrier-basics.asp#axzz2DktV27gi
http://economics.about.com/cs/taxpolicy/a/tariffs_2.htm
And some you don't even have to read:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG_0PAhtIoE&list=UU9MX1kl7wBSJtKdVwTygiFA&index=20&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u76IgGY0Jsw&list=UL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kra5njer6qw
Rucker61
11-30-2012, 18:37
Again Rucker read what Alexander Hamilton had to say.
http://www.thomhartmann.com/blog/2008/12/alexander-hamilton
I'm not sure that Alex knew much about a globalized world economy, and that his theories may be just a tad out of date.
There was global trade at the time of Hamilton too. In fact that was one of the main reasons for the revolution. The crown had set up a system of tariffs and manufacturing restrictions that prevented the US from manufacturing. We fought for the right to control our own markets. We fought for the right to determine how we as a nation would set our own tariff and trade system to control our manufacturing destiny from what we perceived as an outside force bent on impoverishing us. Kinda like today with the WTO dictating our trade policies.
Jesus H MF Christ on a bicycle. Don't you noisy MF have jobs or something to occupy your time instead of dick waving on the intarweb.
nynco, you derail more threads than Amtrack.
Fuck. Just fuck.
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spqrzilla
11-30-2012, 19:50
If congress is giving their constitutional powers over to an un-elected body (WTO) then that is abdicating and shirking the constitutional mandate.
Congress does not "give" any constitutional powers to the WTO. Your understanding of the WTO and the underlying trade treaty it administers is of a kind of your reading comprehension. A failure. The WTO hears complaints from nations about another violations of the treaty and its decision are solely of the form that a violation can be met by the complaining nation applying offsetting tariffs on the violating nations' goods.
spqrzilla
11-30-2012, 19:53
There was global trade at the time of Hamilton too. In fact that was one of the main reasons for the revolution. The crown had set up a system of tariffs and manufacturing restrictions that prevented the US from manufacturing. We fought for the right to control our own markets. We fought for the right to determine how we as a nation would set our own tariff and trade system to control our manufacturing destiny from what we perceived as an outside force bent on impoverishing us. Kinda like today with the WTO dictating our trade policies.
You don't understand the difference between the kind of global trade we have today and the mercantilism system of the British empire (which was NOT free trade at all). You are utterly ignorant of colonial and early US history entirely.
You don't understand the difference between the kind of global trade we have today and the mercantilism system of the British empire (which was NOT free trade at all). You are utterly ignorant of colonial and early US history entirely.
No you are ignorant if you think that things are not the same. We were being exploited by the crown who imposed their form of tariffs of the time that banned manufacture by the colonies. The colonies once they were freed then instituted their own national manufacture plan (Alexanders Hamiltons plan that I linked to) that built up our manufacturing base by imposing tariffs and by giving incentives to manufacture here in the US rather than importing. The crown at the time was interwoven in corporations the British East Indy company was a company controlled by the crown. Just like most all the industries in China are controlled by the military in one fashion or another.
We need to start putting America first. That means putting the interest of the whole nation above the corporations that offshore our jobs. They have no allegiance to US and are sure as shinola slitting our nations throat for their own personal profit.
Why do you think the US has such an immense weapons manufacturing base? TARIFFS (laws that prevent the importation of foreign made weapons are the same damn thing) that exist today prevent them from shifting manufacture to China!!!!!!!
spqrzilla
11-30-2012, 20:08
Yep, no understanding of the mercantile system at all.
What is the root aim of that system? Get to that and you will see my point.
Rucker61
11-30-2012, 20:23
No you are ignorant if you think that things are not the same. !
You continue to demonstrate that you have no understanding of the current world economy. Do you have any actual experience in international trade?
You are also pretty naive if you think that any of your plans, regardless of economic viability, could ever be implemented in any real world scenario.
Rucker61
11-30-2012, 20:25
What is the root aim of that system? Get to that and you will see my point.
Profit?
Profit is not always in the best interest of the nation. It would provide more profit for Wallstreet if they could offshore all manufacturing to China. They have no care if it is in the best interests of the nation. What is good for business is not always good for the nation. That is your biggest assumption mistake. Should we allow all our arms manufactures to ship their manufacturing facilities to China? What do you think would happen if we had no more of them manufacturing here? There is a reason we protect them. That same reason should apply to all things not just weapons systems.
spqrzilla
11-30-2012, 20:57
Zero understanding of basic economics of any kind.
spqrzilla
11-30-2012, 21:06
Consider the simplest model .... In this model there are two countries. In each country, consumers have a preference for variety but there is a tradeoff between variety and cost, consumers want variety but since there are economies of scale – a firm’s unit costs fall as it produces more – more variety means higher prices. Preferences for variety push in the direction of more variety, economies of scale push in the direction of less. So suppose that without trade country 1 produces varieties A,B,C and country two produces varieties X,Y,Z. In every other respect the countries are identical so there are no traditional comparative advantage reasons for trade.
Nevertheless, if trade is possible it is welfare enhancing. With trade the scale of production can increase which reduces costs and prices.
Welfare enhancing means that global trade is good for our country. Everyone's country.
Rucker61
11-30-2012, 21:08
Profit is not always in the best interest of the nation. It would provide more profit for Wallstreet if they could offshore all manufacturing to China. They have no care if it is in the best interests of the nation. What is good for business is not always good for the nation. That is your biggest assumption mistake. Should we allow all our arms manufactures to ship their manufacturing facilities to China? What do you think would happen if we had no more of them manufacturing here? There is a reason we protect them. That same reason should apply to all things not just weapons systems.
Now I think I have a good understanding of your basic premise. I never said that what is good for business is always good for the nation. But when you get to where you tell Capital where they can invest, limit how they make their profit for the optimal benefit of the country, then you better hope that you've closed the borders to emigration.
There is not telling any one where they can invest or not. It is just bringing back a national trade policy based on the best interests of the nation. Something that was in place from the founding of this nation till Reagan. This is nothing like communism like you are alluding to (emigration like people fleeing communism).
Sqr, I am not saying their will be no trade or that trade will end. There will be rules based on economic costs of manufacture that will dictate tariff levels. Those change based on many factors. This worked just fine for over 200 years.
spqrzilla
12-01-2012, 10:09
nynco, global trade increases everyone's welfare. Guess who got a Nobel prize for economics for working on the economic models that establish this? Every Democrats' idol Paul Krugman. Since then, he's written editorials that contradict the very work he got the Nobel prize for, without acknowledging it.
Its why I despise Krugman and laugh at you.
I am not saying global trade will end. It is not black and white. I am not calling for an end to trade or to close the border to all imports. I am calling for the same trading common sense that Alexander Hamilton put in place. A system that this nation lived under for over 200 years and we prospered. Only when we abandoned those principles did we start our downward trend. Did you ever even look at the link that I posted regarding Alexander Hamiltons 11 points on trade? If not then check it out and see if there is not something one of the founding fathers could help clear up for you.
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