Polymer VS. Laquer Ammo Test

[lead_magnet]

(Forward: I debated weather or not to post this, or keep it for personal record. Then I decided not to be a douche. If you don't like it, finish listening to your Beiber album. I'm not trying to sell a product, and as you can see from the dates, the results are unknown even to me. Thought you might enjoy. I will edit this original post to update the overall "document", but results and photos from each test group will be discussed in detail in following replies to this thread. Mods: If this is in the wrong section, then move it.)

7.62x39 AMMUNITION TEST








PURPOSE:
TO DETERMINE THE ABILITY OF DIFFERENT MUNITION COATINGS TO WITHSTAND ADVERSE ATMOSPHERIC AND PHYSICAL CONDITIONS.








AMMUNITION TO BE TESTED:


TYPE 1: WPA MILITARY CLASSIC 7.62x39
SPECS: 124gr FMJ , POLYMER COATED STEEL CASE, LEAD CORE, CON CORROSIVE BERDAN PRIMED


TYPE 2: GOLDEN TIGER
SPECS: 124GR FMJBT, LAQUER COATED STEEL CASE, LEAD CORE, NON CORROSIVE, SEALED PRIMER, SEALED BULLET








TEST GROUPS:
EACH GROUP WILL CONSIST OF 2 ROUNDS FROM EACH AMMUNITION TYPE TO BE SUBJECTED TO THE SAME CONDITIONS


GROUP 1: COMPLETE SUBMERSION IN WATER
DURATION: 1 WEEK
EXPOSURE STARTED: 11/26/2012 @ 15:45 HOURS
EXPOSURE ENDED: 12/04/2012 @ 19:35 HOURS
DATE FIRED: 12/04/2012 @ 21:10 HOURS
RESULTS: ALL FOUR ROUNDS CHAMBERED, FIRED, AND EJECTED NORMALLY.
NOTES: AS CAN BE SEEN FROM THE PHOTOS, THE POLYMER COATED ROUNDS DID NOT FARE NEARLY AS WELL AS THE LAQUER COATED ROUNDS. IT APPEARS AS THOUGH THE COATING WAS CORRODED OFF THE SHELL AND THERE WAS A ROUGH TEXTURE TO THE CASING THAT COULD BE FELT BY HAND. LAQUER COATED ROUNDS SHOWED SLIGHT DISCOLORATION ONLY, CASING FELT SMOOTH TO THE TOUCH.


GROUP 2: COMPLETE SUBMERSION IN WATER
DURATION: 1 MONTH
EXPOSURE STARTED: 11/26/2012 @ 15:45 HOURS
EXPOSURE ENDED: 12/28/2012 @ 19:12 HOURS
DATE FIRED: 12/28/2012 @ 23:47 HOURS
RESULTS: ALL FOUR ROUNDS CHAMBERED, FIRED, AND EJECTED NORMALLY.
NOTES: AS CAN BE SEEN FROM THE PHOTOS, THE POLYMER COATED ROUNDS WERE AGAIN MORE ADVERSELY AFFECTED THAN THE LAQUER COATED ROUNDS. THERE WAS A FORMATION OF A "CRUST" TO THE EXTERIOR OF THE CASING ON THE POLYMER COATED ROUNDS. LAQUER COATED ROUNDS FELT MOSTLY SMOOTH, WITH SMALL PATCHES OF AN IMPERFECTLY SMOOTH SURFACE.


GROUP 3: COMPLETE SUBMERSION IN WATER
DURATION: 2 MONTHS
EXPOSURE STARTED: 11/26/2012 @ 15:45 HOURS
EXPOSURE ENDED:
DATE FIRED:
RESULTS:
NOTES:


GROUP 4: COMPLETE SUBMERSION IN WATER
DURRATION: 6 MONTHS
EXPOSURE STARTED: 11/26/2012 @ 15:45 HOURS
EXPOSURE ENDED:
DATE FIRED:
RESULTS:
NOTES:


GROUP 5: COMPLETE SUBMERSSION IN WATER
DURATION: 1 YEAR
EXPOSURE STARTED: 11/26/2012 @ 15:45 HOURS
EXPOSURE ENDED:
DATE FIRED:
RESULTS:
NOTES:


GROUP 6: EXPOSURE TO NATURAL CONDITIONS
DURATION: 2 MONTHS
EXPOSURE STARTED: 11/26/2012 @ 15:52 HOURS
EXPOSURE ENDED:
DATE FIRED:
RESULTS:
NOTES:


GROUP 7: EXPOSURE TO NATURAL CONDITIONS
DURATION: 6 MONTHS
EXPOSURE STARTED: 11/26/2012 @ 15:52 HOURS
EXPOSURE ENDED:
DATE FIRED:
RESULTS:
NOTES:


GROUP 8: EXPOSURE TO NATURAL CONDITIONS
DURATION: 1 YEAR
EXPOSURE STARTED: 11/26/2012 @ 15:52 HOURS
EXPOSURE ENDED:
DATE FIRED:
RESULTS:
NOTES:


GROUP 9: HIGH HUMIDITY EXPOSURE
DURATION: 6 MONTHS
EXPOSURE STARTED: 11/26/2012 @ 16:02 HOURS
EXPOSURE ENDED:
DATE FIRED:
RESULTS:
NOTES:


GROUP 10: HIGH HUMIDITY EXPOSURE
DURATION: 1 YEAR
EXPOSURE STARTED: 11/26/2012 @ 16:02 HOURS
EXPOSURE ENDED:
DATE FIRED:
RESULTS:
NOTES:


GROUPS 6,7,8:
NOTABLE WEATHER CONDITIONS WILL BE TRACKED AND RECORDED


GROUPS 9 AND 10:
CONDITIONS SHALL BE MONITORED AND RECORDED


EVALUATION:


EACH GROUP WILL BE EVALUATED BY APPEARANCE. VISUAL DEFECTS AND DAMAGE WILL BE NOTED. ATTEMPTS WILL BE MADE TO CHAMBER AND FIRE THE AMMUNITION IN A STANDARD 7.62x39 AK47 TYPE RIFLE.

[lead_magnet]

BEGINNING SAMPLES

For the water submersion test all samples were placed into plastic containers that are approximately 7 inches deep. The containers were filled with tap water, sealed and left to sit.
http://imageshack.us/a/img268/7941/dscf6638t.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img145/3055/dscf6639.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img407/2064/dscf6640.jpg

For the natural element exposure, all test samples were placed on the ground, in an shade and cover free area. This area is located in the southeastern portion of Colorado, USA.
http://imageshack.us/a/img10/6415/dscf6641.jpg

The high humidity samples were placed on the windowsill that is inside the shower area of my bathroom, approximately 1 foot from the shower head. I live in a household of 4, so approximately 4 baths/showers are taken per day. Each of these results in condensation forming on the exterior of the round. This then dries and the cycle is repeated approximately 4 times per day. There is also a significant temperature change during these cycles.
http://imageshack.us/a/img805/3470/dscf6644w.jpg

[lead_magnet]

TEST GROUP 1

As can be seen from these two photos, even after only 8 days there is significant evidence of corrosion.
http://imageshack.us/a/img16/2450/dscf6649u.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img822/4811/dscf6648z.jpg

After removing the rounds from the water they were given a quick wipe down from a paper towel. I didn't take much time doing this, just a few seconds to simulate a rough field wipe-down.
http://imageshack.us/a/img836/642/dscf6650s.jpg

As you can see the polymer coated rounds appear to have lost most of the coating. The casing felt rough to the touch in places, as one would expect with a rusted surface. The laquer coated rounds were discolored in areas, but still felt smooth to the touch.
http://imageshack.us/a/img837/4278/dscf6651.jpg

All rounds were loaded into a magazine and fired. All rounds fed, fired and ejected as normal, much to my surprise. The water submersion tests will proceed to the next phase.

[BPTactical]

Good info, thanks for taking the time to do it.

[Musashi]

Very interested in seeing the rest of this experiment.

[palepainter]

Good info. Moocho grassy ass...

[ChadAmberg]

That's good stuff, so when folks dig up their stash to find their burial tube leaked a bit, what is salvageable and what isn't.

[w748]

This is a great idea!!! Looking foreward to following along.

[UrbanWolf]

Good experiment.

These are the mags and ammo the Somali pirates have been using.
http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6419/94845085.be/0_8e818_4bccd01e_XL.jpg

[jreifsch80]

I have ssome skunky yugo m67 brass case stuff with green bullets lol it functions perfectly as is still nice and accurate.

[SA Friday]

Oh testing, me likee!

[lead_magnet]

Test group 2 results:

Before removal from the water. As expected the corrosion is of the same nature as Test Group 1, only more severe.
http://imageshack.us/a/img705/1945/dscf6670e.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img844/9397/dscf6671d.jpg

Upon removal, an odd finding was discovered. On the polymer coated rounds, a "crust" of sorts has formed on the exterior of the casing. I do not believe this to be deposits from the water, as it only appears on the polymer coated rounds. It would scratch off with a finger nail but wouldn't wipe off with a paper towel. The "worst" side of each round is shown in the photo.
http://imageshack.us/a/img35/5548/dscf6673j.jpg

The samples from Group 10: Not ready for firing, this was taken to show progress. As can be seen the laquer coated cases are standing up much better to the effects of humidity.
http://imageshack.us/a/img812/5876/dscf6677b.jpg

The rounds placed in natural conditions appear unaffected to date. Nothing to report.

All of the rounds from Test Group 2 chambered, fired, and ejected normally. 1 month of complete underwater submersion did not cause any failures. Both ammunition types move on to the next phase.

[cofi]

awesome test! i found an old pmag that had been out in the yard full of tula for well over a year....jammed it in the ar and rattled it off like it was nothin

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

I will keep a eye on this

[electronman1729]

Can you post pics of your groupings?

[lead_magnet]

Um... unfortunately no. I'm shooting at whatever I can dig out of the floorboard of my car, or just into a dirt hill in the prairie. It's all been fired off at night, cause that's when I'm out running around. Plus it's all been fired out of my Draco SBR so it wouldn't really be of any conclusive value anyway. Sorry.

[T-Jet]

Awesome testing. Thanks for sharing !

[ben4372]

great posting. Thanks.

[lead_magnet]

TEST GROUP 3: 2 Months of water submersion

Again, significant evidence of corrosion
http://imageshack.us/a/img9/593/dscf6724d.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img534/6102/dscf6725k.jpg

Polymer cases show far more severe corrosion. The "crust" that had formed at one month is now absent though the cases now have a rough texture due to rust. The laquer coated cases are beginning to show discoloration but still feel smooth to the touch.
http://imageshack.us/a/img802/6752/dscf6731r.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img811/7660/dscf6728.jpg

This photo shows the rough surface of the casing on the polymer coated rounds
http://imageshack.us/a/img560/4797/dscf6732w.jpg

All rounds from TEST GROUP 3 chambered, fired and ejected normally, no failures.

TEST GROUP 6: 2 months exposure to natural elements

No significant evidence of corrosion, only a minor blemish on a few of the rounds. The rounds had been snowed on a few times and subjected to freezing temps on numerous occasions.
http://imageshack.us/a/img18/4978/dscf6730m.jpg

All rounds from TEST GROUP 6 chambered, fired and ejected normally, no failures.

Status report on the the "high humidity" test groups. Not ready to be fired, this is just to show progress.
http://imageshack.us/a/img812/5876/dscf6677b.jpg

[SA Friday]

So, does it look like the polymer coating dissolved in the water or did it separate from the steel case? I'm interested in this as some polymers will eventually break down in polar solutions, but most wont. I'm wondering if they cut corners on the polymer coating and went with a cheap coating not intended for long term submersion. The other possibility is the polymer didn't fully seal and so is letting water eventually penetrate between the coating and the steel and the oxidation of the steel caused the polymer to peel off.

Just curious. I would suspect you would find the polymer coating in flaked off pieces if the latter is true.

[lead_magnet]

I haven't found any flakes of anything, maybe that was the crust that appeared at month 1? I'll be sure to strain the next group at month 6 when I pour off the water. I should be saving the brass for examination but I'm firing them at night, so who knows where they are.

[patrick0685]

Did you keep up with this?

[lead_magnet]

I did, I just shot off the one year test group two months ago (about 5 days pre mature) and I decided to keep one test group going even longer, the one year test group went well, all fired, but there was sort of a suprising turn of events, I'll post the full write up soon. There is still one batch of 4 rounds still underwater, should I try that group at 1.5 years or 2?

[patrick0685]

awesome thanks! if the 1 year did good, might as well go for 2

[beast556]

Very curious to see how the one year test came out.

[lead_magnet]

THE RESULTS FROM THE FINAL TEST GROUP:

THIS GROUP WAS TESTED IN LATE OCTOBER OF 2014 EQUATING TO ROUGHLY 23 MONTHS OF SUBMERSION.

*Note: I sincerely apologize for not uploaded the test results from the one year test group. Doing so now would be impossible as all pictures are forever lost due to a destroyed cell phone. I can tell you however that there were no significant finding from this test group. The corrosion continued in the pattern established by the previous test groups. All rounds chambered, fired and ejected with no failures.

VISUAL EXAMINATION PRIOR TO REMOVAL FROM WATER:

At this state the corrosion is very advanced. It was difficult to see the rounds as they were almost entirely covered in rust. I poured off the water and sifted through the debris in the container and found nothing of significance.

REMOVAL FROM CONTAINER:

As with the test groups before all of the rounds were wiped clean to simulate a rough field cleaning and to permit a visual examination of the integrity of the cases. Here is where things took a turn towards the unexpected. The polymer coated rounds showed no signs of pitting, and were in a similar state as the previous test groups. They appeared to be resisting the effects of the water. At this stage I'm almost wondering if the "crust" that came off of them in the beginning is some kind of outer coating, under which is a layer that is better fused to the steel case though I have no way of confirming this. The lacquer coated rounds showed VERY SIGNIFICANT pitting and advanced stages of corrosion. I would estimate that the corrosion had penetrated though approximately 30% - 40% of the wall of the casing. It is clear that the lacquer would eventually fail completely and the contents of the casing would be compromised resulting in failure. I was concerned that the case walls had been compromised to the extent that failure would cause a case to fracture and cause a malfunction. Needles to say I didn't hold the AK very close to my face when firing these test groups, lmao.

FIRING THE ROUNDS:

As with before, all of the rounds chambered, fired and ejected properly. I was unable to inspect the cases after being fired as it proved nearly impossible to locate a spent casing in the dead of night, go figure.

CONCLUSION:

Even fish could buy ammo and keep it on hand for quite a long period of time. I would imagine that brass cased ammunition would last indefinitely. I cannot imagine any real world scenario that would punish rounds harder than this, where one could not find ammunition to replace the affected lot.

Thus: DON'T LISTEN TO ANY CYBER NINJA DOUCHE THAT TELLS YOU TO ROTATE THE AMMO IN YOUR MAGS AFTER A YEAR. I'm sure SOMEWHERE there has been a incident of a bullet wandering out of casing or a primer vibrating use but I have personally left ammunition loaded in a magazine (and carried either on a person or in a vehicle) for years on end that functioned properly when finally fired. High quality modern ammunition is about as reliable as one could ask for. Thanks to everyone for reading all my stupid test data. If anyone has any questions I'm more that willing to answer them. Stay tuned for my next test titled "if you swallow a live cartridge, then pass the bullet, will it still work?"... just kidding.

OKAY, OKAY ... I'll shut up, here are the stupid pictures... GOSH!!!!!

Removal:
54583 54585

Lacquer Rounds:

54587 54589
54591

Polymer rounds:

54593 54595 <------------------- THE WINNER (which kinda sucks because they don't have the bad ass Mace Windu-esq purple ring around them...DAMNIT!)

[kidicarus13]

Good info, thanks for the follow-up.

[Wulf202]

Thus: DON'T LISTEN TO ANY CYBER NINJA DOUCHE THAT TELLS YOU TO ROTATE THE AMMO IN YOUR MAGS AFTER A YEAR. I'm sure SOMEWHERE there has been a incident of a bullet wandering out of casing or a primer vibrating use but I have personally left ammunition loaded in a magazine (and carried either on a person or in a vehicle) for years on end that functioned properly when finally fired.
This conclusion has nothing to do with the testing? I don't get why you'd relate the two.

[wctriumph]

Good info, thanks for doing this and getting the info out to all of us.

[Beer]

[def90]

The lacquer coated rounds showed VERY SIGNIFICANT pitting and advanced stages of corrosion. I would estimate that the corrosion had penetrated though approximately 30% - 40% of the wall of the casing. It is clear that the polymer would eventually fail completely and the contents of the casing would be compromised resulting in failure.

Do you mean "Lacquer"?

[patrick0685]

thanks for update...i was recently thinking about this as well

[Irving]

In every other test, the lacquered rounds seem to do better than the polymer coated ones.

[lead_magnet]

Do you mean "Lacquer"?

Yes. Good find, I edited the post to correct this, thanks!

[lead_magnet]

This conclusion has nothing to do with the testing? I don't get why you'd relate the two.

I've heard from a few people in my time that moisture in the air will cause (insert b.s. ammunition failure here), it all seems to go hand in hand. This is usually from the guys that have to have all of the FDE components on their weapons match exactly. Or guys that vacuum seal ammunition in seperate bags so ... blah blah blah. Maybe I just know too many people with gun OCDs. So I suppose I'm venting. You're supposed to be the shoulder I cry on! Have a heart man!

[monganian]

Thanks for the update. That was an interesting test.

[DaBull]

Now that is commitment. Excellent study for the benefit of all. Incidentally, I heard years ago that it was extreme temperatures that degraded ammo by breaking down the powder. Seems odd since I know ammo must be getting hot riding in boxes on vehicles in Afghanistan and Iraq. Maybe it just degrades it so it doesn't burn as cleanly.

[cstone]

Please send all ammunition more than ten years old to my residence. This ammunition is beyond it's freshness date and I personally will take responsibility for it's proper destruction [Sarcasm2]

Thank you for conducting your test and sharing your results. I admire your diligence. [Beer]

[Wulf202]

I've heard from a few people in my time that moisture in the air will cause (insert b.s. ammunition failure here), it all seems to go hand in hand. This is usually from the guys that have to have all of the FDE components on their weapons match exactly. Or guys that vacuum seal ammunition in seperate bags so ... blah blah blah. Maybe I just know too many people with gun OCDs. So I suppose I'm venting. You're supposed to be the shoulder I cry on! Have a heart man!

Repeated chambering of ammunition has been proven to cause failures. So has carrying the same ammo down bumpy roads for long periods of time.

I'll wear absorbing shoulder pads.

[lllRorlll]

So!
results are.. If you got em shoot em?.
deal