NFA Form 1 questions for a first timer in El Paso County

[mtnrider]

So there is tons of info on the web but it's getting bit confusing so I thought I would just try and get advice from a local that has done the process so I can make this as painless as possable.

I just bought a stripped Spikes lower that I want to SBR. I would like to go ahead and build it as a 10.5" pistol for now until the paper work clears and I can add a stock. From what I have read this should not be a problem correct? I am picking up the lower tonight from my FFL and I assume it should be checked as "other" on the transfer forum? I know there is something about going from a rifle to pistol but since this is a stripped lower that has never been built I think I am okay.

Here is a list of other questions that I would like help with. (El Paso County, Colorado Springs)


Where do I go to get the Form 1 signed and finger prints. Is it the same office that does the CCW appointments? If so do I do the finger prints and get it signed at the same time/place? Do I need to bring my own finger print cards or do they have the right ones? Do I need a appointment?
Once I get that sorted out and have mailed out the forms is there anything else that needs to be done prior to approval?
Engraving: This lower has a serial number already so if I am correct I just need to have my name and city added? Maybe caliber since this lower says "Multi" on it? At what point does this engraving need to be done?


Am I missing anything?

Thanks for your assistance.

.

[O2HeN2]

I'll be back when I have more time, but you need to order the fingerprint cards, get at least two sets (4). Order from here (http://www.atf.gov/forms/dcof/), "FBI FD-258LE - NFA, Imports ORI WVATF0800" cards.

O2

[O2HeN2]

Ok, I have a little more time.

First off, get a trust. The younger you are the more important this is because your life is going to change. If you don't start out with a trust, you'll feel like an idiot when you're paying $200 a pop to transfer personally owned NFA items from yourself to your trust. An idiot like I see in the mirror each morning. A total waste of money that can far exceed the cost of getting a trust and doing it right from the get go.

With a trust you don't need fingerprints or an LEO signature.

For an NFA trust go see Usiak (http://www.usiaklaw.com/) in the 'springs.

But lets assume you're young and like most young people you're going to ignore that good advice and end up being an idiot like me:

The reason to order 4 fingerprint forms is in case they screw up the fingerprints. You need two cards, so get four just in case so you're not waiting for replacements via snail mail (Ps. the cards are free).

I'd suggest you get the CSPD to do your fingerprints just so it's an official government entity doing the work.

Assemble and shoot your lower to assure that it works. My to-be-SBR Spikes lower had a defect and I'm glad I did this. You don't want to invest in a $200 tax stamp for a defective lower.

Buy some of these (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/581214/kns-hammer-and-trigger-pin-2nd-generation-non-rotating-ar-15-small-pin-154-stainless-steel) and install them. I call them "stamp protectors" -- they'll assure the pins don't spin and wallow out the frame.

Now strip your lower (you can leave the bolt latch and mag release on it) and get it engraved. Again, do this before sending in the stamp because you don't want a lower with screwed up, then corrected engraving detracting from your SBR. The engraving itself is bad enough.

I recommend T&T Engraving (http://www.ttengraving.com/), they know all the rules and regs for engraving an SBR and do an excellent job.

It'll look like this when it's done (assuming you live in the 'springs):

XXX TRUST
CO SPRINGS, CO

Or, if you're an idiot:

MY NAME
CO SPRINGS, CO

You won't have to engrave the caliber IF it's marked on the barrel and it's not covered by the shroud or anything else. Otherwise yes, you'll have to engrave the caliber.

Note: You can't use "COLO" because it's not an accepted postal designation. You can use "SPGS" however, but I like it spelled out -- but that's your call. Oh, you can have "Colorado" completely spelled out too, but that's really long. Any questions T&T should have copies of all the rules and regulations -- I gave them a packet a few months ago.

So the lower works and it's engraved. You've got your fingerprints done. Now fill out the form 1 and call the sheriff's office and find out how they want to do the Form 1. Yes, you'll probably end up at the building that you got your CCW from, but call and make sure they don't have any other requirements, like an appointment or something.

Send the forms (two copies) off and wait.

O2

[Great-Kazoo]

1) Sheriff's Dept does the prints and CLEO signs off. Call your cyt sheriff to get the correct answer regarding appointment or not.

2) Sit back and wait

3) Name & City/state. Some do it before some wait, your choice. There was a heated discussion regarding this step. MYSELF, NFA item or not, there is nothing illegal about you putting your name on a firearm.


http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5320-1.pdf

http://www.atf.gov/forms/firearms/

http://utahgunowners.com/nfaclass-iii/atf-form-1-%28individual%29-template/

[mtnrider]

Great Info thanks so much!

So I am a old fart and want to do this right this first time so I may look into this trust thing. What is the benifit for doing this and what will it cost me? If I go to Usiak (http://www.usiaklaw.com/) do they know what I need to do or are there questions I need to ask/know? Not very legal savy so I'm a little blind on what a trust has to offer?

I did order Finger print cards already just in case they did not have them so I am a step ahead there. I ordered 8 the other day just to have them.

I sure hope I don't have to go to the same place they do the CCW appointments to get finger prints. We just did my wifes CCW about 2 months ago and there was at least a 2 month wait for an appointment and that was before hte election. I would bet it's much worse now.

.

[O2HeN2]

Great Info thanks so much!

So I am a old fart and want to do this right this first time so I may look into this trust thing. What is the benifit for doing this and what will it cost me? If I go to Usiak (http://www.usiaklaw.com/) do they know what I need to do or are there questions I need to ask/know? Not very legal savy so I'm a little blind on what a trust has to offer?
Saw the motorcycle and assumed young, though I have a good friend who's an old fart like me that does that too :)

A trust allows multiple people to possess the NFA items and allows a smoother transfer of ownership (if correctly setup) when you pass away. If you’re not married, not going to get married and not likely to ever have a partner a personal transfer might make sense. A personally owned NFA item may be transferred ONCE when you pass away on a Form 5 if it’s specifically called out in your will. Make sure it is if you go that route (and make sure they live in a state that can possess NFA items).

An example problem with personally owned NFA items: If you’re married and have personally owned NFA items, your spouse can’t even have ACCESS to them. So either they don’t get the combo to the safe, or you have to lock them up inside a case inside the safe. Either is a PITA.

With a revocable trust your spouse and children (for example) all can be trustees and can all possess your NFA items. You can add and drop people from the trust as you please. Want to loan a [very good] friend your SBR? Add them to the trust, give them the SBR (and copies of the trust and form 4) and send them on their way. Remove them from the trust when they return it.
When you pass away, the trust become irrevocable but your spouse and/or children can still possess the NFA items and they can take their time to decide what to do with them – keep them or sell them.

I have two very long-term friends on my trust. They aren’t freaked out by NFA stuff so if I pass away they can assist my GF (who is also on the trust) in disposing of the NFA items if she so wishes.

Basically a trust gives you lots of flexibility for who gets to possess the NFA items. A personal transfer means that you and only you can have access to the items.

…and you don’t have to worry about fingerprints and LEO signatures. So if you ever move to a jurisdiction where NFA is legal but the LEO won’t sign off on NFA items, you can still buy them since their signature is not required. There are two reasons for LEOs not signing off on NFA, they’re either petty tyrants (most common) or they do not believe in the unfunded mandate of requiring an LEO signoff.

Usiak will know what to do, it's one of his services. I don't know what he charges now but it'll probably be in the $300-$500 range (I think there's a price break if you're a member of Whistling Pines Gun Club). They're other lawyers in the state that do NFA trusts, so feel free to shop around.

I don't think the EPSO does fingerprints on demand, which is why I suggested CSPD.

O2

[SAnd]

If you go with a trust make sure they make the trust name as short as possible. The less you have to engrave the better.

The only physical difference between SBR and a pistol can be a pistol receiver extension tube and the Buttstock receiver extension. You can build your AR as a pistol and test it to make sure it works like O2HeN2 suggests. Then when the Form 1 comes back stick the stock on it and sell the pistol receiver extension tube.

Have fun.

[mtnrider]

Saw the motorcycle and assumed young, though I have a good friend who's an old fart like me that does that too :)


Hahaha, yeah not so young anymore but young at heart. I can still give the kids a run for there money on the race track though! Everything just aches a little more the next day.

[TriggerHappy]

I would also recommend a trust or LLC. Much easier since an entity doesn't have fingerprints.

I chose LLC because it was cheaper up front and several friends have had them for Nfa for years. The trust route is a little newer, but works as well. If you have any LLC questions shoot me a pm.

[TriggerHappy]

You could also save your money and buy a factory sbr lower, normally comes as an SBR. Then no engraving necessary.

[Great-Kazoo]

You could also save your money and buy a factory sbr lower, normally comes as an SBR. Then no engraving necessary.

MGT had a few, may still have 1 or 2 in stock. My SBR's are factory. Looking at doing the Draco on a form 1, even leaning towards a trust for this one. If i kick off before then, it the wife can file under section 9.5.3 regarding ESTATE.

[O2HeN2]

You could also save your money and buy a factory sbr lower, normally comes as an SBR. Then no engraving necessary.
...but it stays in jail for six months.

That's the tradeoff, engrave and get to play with it in a legal configuration while waiting on the Form 1, or no engraving and just drool on it at the dealer (though some dealers that have access to a range allow conjugal visits) while waiting on the Form 4.

As for saving money, engraving is only about $30 if memory serves.

O2

[mtnrider]

I already have my lower and as O2 eluded to I can build my pistol now and play with it and make sure it functions etc.

Going to try and find time to call a lawyer today and see what a trust is going to cost me. You would think it would be reasonable if they have already done one in the past and now have a boiler plate to start with but we'll see.

.

[asmo]

I already have my lower and as O2 eluded to I can build my pistol now and play with it and make sure it functions etc.

Going to try and find time to call a lawyer today and see what a trust is going to cost me. You would think it would be reasonable if they have already done one in the past and now have a boiler plate to start with but we'll see.
.

If you want to do this right - you really want to go with someone who has done an NFA trust before. There are lots of little nuances having to do with NFA items that most lawyers are not familiar with. Some of those nuances can turn into felonies VERY quickly.

[SAnd]

You could also save your money and buy a factory sbr lower, normally comes as an SBR. Then no engraving necessary.
I have seen a few Form 1 items marked where it is not noticeable. ARs are often marked beside where the trigger extends through the bottom of the lower. Another place is the front of the mag well. That is why it is very useful to have as short a name for your trust or other entity.

[O2HeN2]

So until the NFA makes a decision on trusts (and it's anyone's guess as to what's going to happen with that), there's another reason to go the trust route: eforms. eforms are running about 3 months currently whereas paper filing is running about 11 months.

However, eform 1s can ONLY be done if the maker is a trust, not an individual (no way to eform a picture and fingerprints).

So it might be worth your while for a trust if you want your toy in 1/3 the time.

O2

[Great-Kazoo]

So until the NFA makes a decision on trusts (and it's anyone's guess as to what's going to happen with that), there's another reason to go the trust route: eforms. eforms are running about 3 months currently whereas paper filing is running about 11 months.

However, eform 1s can ONLY be done if the maker is a trust, not an individual (no way to eform a picture and fingerprints).

So it might be worth your while for a trust if you want your toy in 1/3 the time.

O2


The ATF / NFA has to read and respond to every letter received. they put off making a decision till later this year, like sept-dec. If we didn't like to travel with guns, i'd F1 every semi long & shot gun we owned. Now that the spouse has her SBR, she's browsing for another project.
Don't forget a LLC, or Corp can also file Eforms.

[SA Friday]

So until the NFA makes a decision on trusts (and it's anyone's guess as to what's going to happen with that), there's another reason to go the trust route: eforms. eforms are running about 3 months currently whereas paper filing is running about 11 months.

However, eform 1s can ONLY be done if the maker is a trust, not an individual (no way to eform a picture and fingerprints).

So it might be worth your while for a trust if you want your toy in 1/3 the time.

O2

Form 1s and 4s have to be a Trust or LLC to e-file.

e-file has been down for the last three weeks. It's driving me crazy as I have form 3s and 4s to file at work and am just sitting around waiting.

[SA Friday]

I have seen a few Form 1 items marked where it is not noticeable. ARs are often marked beside where the trigger extends through the bottom of the lower. Another place is the front of the mag well. That is why it is very useful to have as short a name for your trust or other entity.
Or choose a name that you can incorporate into a cool picture or something fitting for the side of an SBR.

[Great-Kazoo]

Form 1s and 4s have to be a Trust or LLC to e-file.

e-file has been down for the last three weeks. It's driving me crazy as I have form 3s and 4s to file at work and am just sitting around waiting.

Really ? Ive been on it 2x since 2/8 This is from 5 min ago. What browser are you using?

https://www.atfonline.gov/EForms/imageservlet?formId=9 (https://www.atfonline.gov/EForms/faces/eFormsMain.jspx?_afrWindowMode=0&_afrLoop=16758502080366&_adf.ctrl-state=fvwlxntm0_39#)

[paddywagon]

I filed 2 F1's on Monday. Took me a while but got it done!

[Great-Kazoo]

I filed 2 F1's on Monday. Took me a while but got it done!

The running joke with efiles support is, How many times does the processing icon rotates per minute. I told her it's a good thing i'm not a cat, OR epileptic

[Lurch]

47 rpm.