View Full Version : Right To Work ... What am I missing ?
clublights
12-11-2012, 17:49
So I'm trying to understand how exactly the "Right To Work" laws signed in Mich. are bad for "workers"
I mean you can still join the union if you want right ?
If the unions are so good you would't wanna leave them right ?
I understand that stats say that in RTW states the workers make a little less.. and have slightly less benefits.. but if these are not working for you you can still join/rejoin the union .. right ?
To me the only ones really hurt by this are union bosses...
All right to work says is that you don't have to be in the union and you don't have to pay union dues if you choose to not be in the union.
Some companies have closed shops which means you can not work for that company if you do not join the union. Other companies give employees the option to join the union but employees are still required to pay union dues regardless of their membership status.
clublights
12-11-2012, 18:11
All right to work says is that you don't have to be in the union and you don't have to pay union dues if you choose to not be in the union.
Some companies have closed shops which means you can not work for that company if you do not join the union. Other companies give employees the option to join the union but employees are still required to pay union dues regardless of their membership status.
I get that .. that is why I'm confused to how it is "bad for the worker" ....
I'm wondering if there is more then that
It's said to be bad for the worker because its bad for the unions. Anything bad for the union is said to be bad for the worker.
If people are allowed to choose not to join the union and not pay dues a lot of people will opt to not join the union and not pay union dues. Doing so will reduce the amount of money the union receives and the unions will claim that that minimizes the necessary funding to retain attorneys and pay for collective bargaining and arbitration.
If you work for a company that requires you to pay union dues regardless of your union membership why not join the union? If you do not join the union you are not entitled to union representation in the event that your job is threatened. This is often something union afterwards say to people who don't want to join the union and more often than not it is enough to get them to join the Union bOn the flip side you don't have to go on strike if the union calls a labor stoppage.
Personally I'm all for right to work. A person should have a choice but I'm also not a fan of labor unions so my opinion is bias.
Labor unions used to have a place in our society but no longer are needed after the .gov became one for everyone in the nation.
Zundfolge
12-11-2012, 18:49
It's said to be bad for the worker because its bad for the unions. Anything bad for the union is said to be bad for the worker.
This pretty much sums it up ... unions have created the big lie that non-union work is bad for workers and union work is good for workers (when most of the time the opposite is true).
The thing this law changes is if you have to support the bargaining unit, that is pay dues. You currently do not have to a member of the union to work in a union shop. You can be required to pay the part of the dues that pay for the negotiating and defending the contract as a condition of employment. Current law requires the union to represent anybody that is paying to support the contract. The right to work laws eliminate the mandatory payment to support the contract.
The only ones hurt by this are the union bosses and the politicians they pay.
rockhound
12-11-2012, 19:27
i am sure the Hostess workers just love their union about now
it is not bad for workers IMHO, the union wage negotiations are a big [art of why nothing is made in america anymore, between the govt over-regulation and the union forcing wages higher and benefits out of sight the business cannot compete anymore,
centrarchidae
12-11-2012, 20:04
The theory behind why RTW is bad is what economists call "the free-rider problem." People who work in union-represented workplaces, without being members, still benefit from union representation in the contract negotiation. I can't remember if they still benefit from union representation in disciplinary measures, since it's been years since I've played in that sandbox.
That's also the theory behind why, in some states, a union can either require represented non-members to pay for what are called "representational expenses" (the union's expenses associated with negotiations) or, in some cases, be forced to give partial refunds or discounts on dues for non-representational expenses. I did that in a job where I was a union member due to an utterly evil management climate where I wanted the help with disciplinary matters, but didn't want to support the union's political endorsements.
So I'm trying to understand how exactly the "Right To Work" laws signed in Mich. are bad for "workers"
I mean you can still join the union if you want right ?
If the unions are so good you would't wanna leave them right ?
I understand that stats say that in RTW states the workers make a little less.. and have slightly less benefits.. but if these are not working for you you can still join/rejoin the union .. right ?
To me the only ones really hurt by this are union bosses...
husky390
12-11-2012, 20:36
Just my 2 cents.
Right to work also means that the employer has a right to fire someone's ass if they are not doing their job. Also, non-compete contracts are virtually null in a right to work state (that's a good thing).
I've worked in a right to work state for most of my life. Never had a problem. But then, I did my job. I don't care for unions, I've been on plenty of union run job sites and can hardly believe anything got done.
You do not want to work for a union company without joining the union unless you want to receive nastygrams on the windshield of your car, have your car vandalized, etc.
I was always under the impression that employers had a more difficult time firing employees in Right-to-work states. Isn't that the benefit of Colorado not being a right-to-work state, that employers can actually fire people?
clublights
12-12-2012, 00:53
I was always under the impression that employers had a more difficult time firing employees in Right-to-work states. Isn't that the benefit of Colorado not being a right-to-work state, that employers can actually fire people?
Not sure...
that would be why I asked .. there has to be more to it then just the union bosses and something else I heard today about the unions calling right to work workers "freeloaders" since the union built up the wages and benefits over the years . which I can see being upsetting to the union members .
Not sure...
that would be why I asked .. there has to be more to it then just the union bosses and something else I heard today about the unions calling right to work workers "freeloaders" since the union built up the wages and benefits over the years . which I can see being upsetting to the union members .thats funny i always felt that union workers are freeloaders . as a matter of fact i have had the union try to take over a few places that i have worked and at least one place where i got the wage and benefits raised . unions have their place but its not for everyone . unions tend to bread laziness like a plague . some say you cant do this or that on a large scale without the union , not true . i have run crews in the hundreds and built some of the largest temporary structures on the planet (well at the time) , all nonunion . of course i have also had union members come to my house (it did not work for them) to try to threaten me because i believe in the right to work without joining or paying into a union . forcing people to join a union or forcing business to use union will drive small business in the toilet and make big ones leave the country . we as a nation wonder why everything is made overseas that was once made here , lets just say unions played a big part in ruining it for everybody (imo).
I was always under the impression that employers had a more difficult time firing employees in Right-to-work states. Isn't that the benefit of Colorado not being a right-to-work state, that employers can actually fire people?
not true (at least in entertainment ), i have had the unions from all over the country ask me to help find them help for their gigs but strangely i have never had to call them . yes the union gets mad when the labor contract goes to someone like me cause they cant fill the bill .
Over the years there have been many things said about Right to work that simply are not true. The being terminated without cause issue is one of those misconceptions.
Most employers require employees to sign an agreement stating their employment is at will. What this means is that either the employee or the employer can terminate the employment at will without cause provided.
Regardless of whether or not an at will agreement was signed an employee who is terminated by their employer without reason given is eligible for unemployment benefits. The only time a person is not eligible for unemployment benefits is when the person was terminated through fault of their own and the employer has solid documentation that confirms their claim.
clublights
12-12-2012, 07:06
thats funny i always felt that union workers are freeloaders . as a matter of fact i have had the union try to take over a few places that i have worked and at least one place where i got the wage and benefits raised . unions have their place but its not for everyone . unions tend to bread laziness like a plague . some say you cant do this or that on a large scale without the union , not true . i have run crews in the hundreds and built some of the largest temporary structures on the planet (well at the time) , all nonunion . of course i have also had union members come to my house (it did not work for them) to try to threaten me because i believe in the right to work without joining or paying into a union . forcing people to join a union or forcing business to use union will drive small business in the toilet and make big ones leave the country . we as a nation wonder why everything is made overseas that was once made here , lets just say unions played a big part in ruining it for everybody (imo).
not true (at least in entertainment ), i have had the unions from all over the country ask me to help find them help for their gigs but strangely i have never had to call them . yes the union gets mad when the labor contract goes to someone like me cause they cant fill the bill .
I thought I remembered you being a staging/rigger guy ...... as an LD I know all too well how bad local unions can be ( not just Denver.... try getting anything done and done RIGHT in a union house in NYC... UGH.. )
Yeah the Local ITASE has staffing issues .. I've been asked to be on the call list.. but as someone with 20 years in the biss I'm not going to go back to kicking carpet at the convention center... I put in my hard work dues long ago. hard to go back ..
I was just saying I understood the point of view that they spent 20 years paying union dues and now the newbies get to come in and get the same or damn close wages/benefits and not pay the dues / work the union did.
THe production company I work for mainly is basically 5 main people... 3 of them in the same family LOL (husband wife son) Trying to unionize us would be crushing defeat.. and even if somehow we did .. it would just destroy the small company that we are.
I thought I remembered you being a staging/rigger guy ...... as an LD I know all too well how bad local unions can be ( not just Denver.... try getting anything done and done RIGHT in a union house in NYC... UGH.. )
Yeah the Local ITASE has staffing issues .. I've been asked to be on the call list.. but as someone with 20 years in the biss I'm not going to go back to kicking carpet at the convention center... I put in my hard work dues long ago. hard to go back ..
I was just saying I understood the point of view that they spent 20 years paying union dues and now the newbies get to come in and get the same or damn close wages/benefits and not pay the dues / work the union did.
THe production company I work for mainly is basically 5 main people... 3 of them in the same family LOL (husband wife son) Trying to unionize us would be crushing defeat.. and even if somehow we did .. it would just destroy the small company that we are.
yep stage builder and rigger but mostly a crew leader / labor provider . also helped to start crewing company (largest independent labor company in baltimore for the biz and is still around) .the only reason we got that going was because i hate the lazy union steel hands (stage builders ) . nothing like trying to put head blocs up and having your ground pounders running off for a dam,n doughnut . when i was the production/stage manager of the sunshine theater (abq mn ) , i would get a call every week from the union begging me to let them in . but like the company you work for it would have killed the place and made ticket prices too high . unions have their place but it should never be a requirement .
if you have seen me near am outdoor stage in the past 14 years i was ether in charge of or provided the labor (with a few exceptions) . nonunion has always kicked the crap out of union on the job site . load out is always faster , less talk back and i can use my own tools and toys in nonunion cites . hell i did a build up north (union) where out of 36 steel hands 1 had a hammer that could be used .
buffalobo
12-12-2012, 07:53
I was always under the impression that employers had a more difficult time firing employees in Right-to-work states. Isn't that the benefit of Colorado not being a right-to-work state, that employers can actually fire people?
Right to work and at will employment are not the same. Colorado is an at will state and you can be fired or quit for any/no reason.
I was always under the impression that employers had a more difficult time firing employees in Right-to-work states. Isn't that the benefit of Colorado not being a right-to-work state, that employers can actually fire people?
That really depends. I've been fired from a job because the boss blamed me for something that I didn't have access to.
streetglideok
12-12-2012, 08:05
All right to work does, is allow you to go to work at a business, even if it is unionized, and not be forced to join it. Union bosses hate this, because it can cut into their pockets with membership dues, and gives employees the right to think for themselves. That scares the unions, they do not want you thinking, as you might actually decide they are retarded for striking over every little thing. It won't destroy unions, but it will help bring their power and greed in check.
clublights
12-12-2012, 09:24
when i was the production/stage manager of the sunshine theater (abq mn ).
I worked at the Sunshine in the early 90's when it was a nightclub. Did security for em way back then ! I grew up in the ABQ. got my start in lighting in some of the clubs in the area.. Ritual and UN... if you were around any back then .
Damn small world sometimes!
I worked at the Sunshine in the early 90's when it was a nightclub. Did security for em way back then ! I grew up in the ABQ. got my start in lighting in some of the clubs in the area.. Ritual and UN... if you were around any back then .
Damn small world sometimes!nope i didnt mover to nm till 2006 and got out in 2010 and in the biz its even smaller than you think . i bet we have met or at least worked on the same big gig at some point
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