Drama in Evergreen proof society is deteriorating...

[Ronin13]

So there has been an ongoing issue up here in Evergreen for quite a while now. I'll try to keep this as short as possible...
The Evergreen Fire Protection District decided about 2 years ago that they wanted to install a four story training facility on the Station 2 campus (for those familiar with Evergreen, it's the Bergen Park station up near King Soopers), aka a "burn building" for structure fire training. Once the proposal got released for public dissemination many residents blew their lid. This occurred shortly after the fire up in Conifer earlier this year. The plans got put on hold until the fire district could get a higher number of 'approval' from the residents. The whole hoopla was started by a somewhat famous journalist (I won't name names) who used to cover Shuttle launches that happens to live in the area, but not in the immediate area near the station. He sided with the anti-burn building folks, who by now had set up a "Ban The Burn Building" Facebook page. Their arguments against were that it would be an eye sore, it posed a danger to the immediate community as there would be open flames used in the building (duh!), it posed a danger to children as an elementary school property butts up to the station property and that smoke was a concern, and what they didn't say, but those of us who were for it knew what they meant, this was a NIMBY issue (Not In My Back Yard). So the board of directors with the FD decided to compromise. The building was reduced to 3 stories (equivalent to the station height), the theatrical smoke would be re-examined, and they held several meetings to inform the public that since this training facility would be at a fire station there was extremely minimal risk to the community. Several meetings and several discussions later, the district decided to go ahead with the facility and include the changes to better appease the angry neighbors. The FD even got approval from the county, which was unnecessary.

Problem solved, right? Wrong. Suddenly, feeling like they won't take no for an answer and refusing to accept the consolations given by the fire district, a group of these angry neighbors have decided to petition to have a recall election of the board members. Estimates by the county show that this will cost the tax payers in the Evergreen Fire District $70,000 to have a recall election and campaign for new board members. Even today the unnamed journalist published an op-ed piece in the local paper basically saying "we lost, now drop it." But they continue to fight the FD. It's so sad in our modern society that if people disagree with something they can't just let bygones be bygones and as that old cliche goes "agree to disagree," no, they have to fight it tooth and nail until they get their way, like a spoiled little child. I see so much of this all the time, and this here is a prime example of this "we lost, now just drop it" mentality becoming extinct in favor of a never accept defeat and fight until you get your way mentality.[Bang]

[Kraven251]

Winners never quit, and quitters never win, but when you never win and you never quit, you are an idiot.

At the very least the reporter conceded the position.

[Teufelhund]

I don't see how you can fault someone for being determined enough in their conviction to exercise all available options. Following this line of thinking, should all political parties who are not Democratic just throw in the towel because "we lost" or continue to fight for what we believe in despite being the underdogs?

[Kraven251]

This isn't an underdog scenario though, this is a we didn't get our way so we are just going to vote no confidence on the board until we get one that does what we want. Oh and when our shit catches on fire and people haven't had the opportunity to train properly we will blame the FD for failing. It is a double edged sword and eventually you trip and fall on it.

[blm28]

Just hope that the lack of an approriate training facility doesn't come back to haunt the community or the department.

[def90]

There are multiple facilities throughout the Denver area, where do they train now?. What is the real need for the facility? How much will it cost? Where is the money coming from? How long will it take to break even on building their own facility vs. using someone else's training facility?

[blm28]

The problem with using someone else's facility is scheduling and having you crews and rigs out of the area and not available for service in the community they serve.

[Ronin13]

Kraven has it right.
As it stands right now (I'm sure the majority on here know where Evergreen is) the only training they get at the level they're seeking with this new facility is either DFD's training building out at Stapleton, or West Metro's facility. Problem is it takes all day, they have to transport personnel and equipment early in the morning (usually on a Saturday), then train all day, then bring it all back up here and clean up and store everything. Oh, also, I might have forgotten to mention, Evergreen has an all volunteer fire dept.

This has been people complaining for months about something they either know little about, or just don't care, they want things their way. The FD has compromised so much already and even that is not acceptable. These idiots won't quit until the FD agrees to not build the facility or they get a new board that may or may not do what they want (and we run the risk of having a board that knows nothing of fire protection and totally screws the pooch). These current members only have the community's best interest in mind, but the neighbors are idiots and don't see the logic here.

[JM Ver. 2.0]

So there has been an ongoing issue up here in Evergreen for quite a while now. I'll try to keep this as short as possible...
The Evergreen Fire Protection District decided about 2 years ago that they wanted to install a four story training facility on the Station 2 campus (for those familiar with Evergreen, it's the Bergen Park station up near King Soopers), aka a "burn building" for structure fire training. Once the proposal got released for public dissemination many residents blew their lid. This occurred shortly after the fire up in Conifer earlier this year. The plans got put on hold until the fire district could get a higher number of 'approval' from the residents. The whole hoopla was started by a somewhat famous journalist (I won't name names) who used to cover Shuttle launches that happens to live in the area, but not in the immediate area near the station. He sided with the anti-burn building folks, who by now had set up a "Ban The Burn Building" Facebook page. Their arguments against were that it would be an eye sore, it posed a danger to the immediate community as there would be open flames used in the building (duh!), it posed a danger to children as an elementary school property butts up to the station property and that smoke was a concern, and what they didn't say, but those of us who were for it knew what they meant, this was a NIMBY issue (Not In My Back Yard). So the board of directors with the FD decided to compromise. The building was reduced to 3 stories (equivalent to the station height), the theatrical smoke would be re-examined, and they held several meetings to inform the public that since this training facility would be at a fire station there was extremely minimal risk to the community. Several meetings and several discussions later, the district decided to go ahead with the facility and include the changes to better appease the angry neighbors. The FD even got approval from the county, which was unnecessary.

Problem solved, right? Wrong. Suddenly, feeling like they won't take no for an answer and refusing to accept the consolations given by the fire district, a group of these angry neighbors have decided to petition to have a recall election of the board members. Estimates by the county show that this will cost the tax payers in the Evergreen Fire District $70,000 to have a recall election and campaign for new board members. Even today the unnamed journalist published an op-ed piece in the local paper basically saying "we lost, now drop it." But they continue to fight the FD. It's so sad in our modern society that if people disagree with something they can't just let bygones be bygones and as that old cliche goes "agree to disagree," no, they have to fight it tooth and nail until they get their way, like a spoiled little child. I see so much of this all the time, and this here is a prime example of this "we lost, now just drop it" mentality becoming extinct in favor of a never accept defeat and fight until you get your way mentality.[Bang]

Funny... Sounds like gun owners all over the country... But it's ok if gun owners do it, right?

I'm just being a jackass... But that does sound like what gun owners do all the time. We just have the 2A on our side is all...

[brianakell]

I don't see how you can fault someone for being determined enough in their conviction to exercise all available options. Following this line of thinking, should all political parties who are not Democratic just throw in the towel because "we lost" or continue to fight for what we believe in despite being the underdogs?

Id somewhat agree, but say it depends on the circumstances. Sort of like buying a house near an airport, then complaining as the area grows that the airport builds more buildings, taller, and air traffic increases, causing more noise. Hmmm, stapleton?

You buy next to a fire dept, then get upset when the budget allows to improve the training available? And to utilize more of their property. Sorry, no sympathy here. Only thing I could see is ask the department to do trainings with the facility outside of schools operating hours. And Ill bet they would agree, even before all the drama.

All these groups do is waste money and time. In the end, they still lose. We have a group fighting a radio tower to be used for emergency communications, because the radio coverage in the area is lousy currently. And a group has been fighting it. Nevermind that from any paved road or house, WORST case you'd be able to see what would look like a taller tree. But fight it they will do. The real reasons come down to hating cell phone companies, and corporations, nothing to do with the emergency towers purpose. Yup, makes no sense at all.

[Teufelhund]

I certainly don't agree with the position of those opposing the training facility. As JM pointed out, I just think Ronin's statement is a little hypocritical.

[JM Ver. 2.0]

Id somewhat agree, but say it depends on the circumstances. Sort of like buying a house near an airport, then complaining as the area grows that the airport builds more buildings, taller, and air traffic increases, causing more noise. Hmmm, stapleton?

You buy next to a fire dept, then get upset when the budget allows to improve the training available? And to utilize more of their property. Sorry, no sympathy here. Only thing I could see is ask the department to do trainings with the facility outside of schools operating hours. And Ill bet they would agree, even before all the drama.

All these groups do is waste money and time. In the end, they still lose. We have a group fighting a radio tower to be used for emergency communications, because the radio coverage in the area is lousy currently. And a group has been fighting it. Nevermind that from any paved road or house, WORST case you'd be able to see what would look like a taller tree. But fight it they will do. The real reasons come down to hating cell phone companies, and corporations, nothing to do with the emergency towers purpose. Yup, makes no sense at all.

That tower is going to block my view of Sandy Pants Peak, sir! I paid good money to be able to see Sandy Pants Peak from my 1 bedroom loft above a Chinese food place!

[birddog]

Just got a letter in the mail today from the fire chief about this. Sounds like its a go and for good reason.

using other people's building sucks for the above reasons but you also have to pay rent for the building for the day, and some require you to pay for an agency provided safety officer to watch your group and ensure you are not wrecking their building. The letter I got states that Evergreen trains every Monday, you can only imagine what fuel and transport costs are to go to Denver for that.

In a community like Evergreen that is comprised of volunteers they will most likely only be burning on the weekend anyway. School will be out then and you would be aloof to think that they hadn't already taken that into account. Most of the training that building sees anyway won't be live fire anyway.

i say go for it and quit whining wankers!!!

[Ronin13]

Funny... Sounds like gun owners all over the country... But it's ok if gun owners do it, right?

I'm just being a jackass... But that does sound like what gun owners do all the time. We just have the 2A on our side is all...
You can't really make that argument- gun owners are backed by the US Constitution... these people are fighting this without cause. It's easier to compare to people trying to fight Obama's reelection, granted there was rampant fraud, but nothing will be done with it, so we need to admit we lost and move on with our mission, getting someone better next time around, pressuring our side to do right, etc. In this instance, these folks need to realize that the training facility is going in, they lost that battle, now they need to focus on making sure the FD practices safety and prudence, which they will, but it never hurts to have the community be active in keeping those who serve in check (kind of like how modern society is always having that shred of oversight with LEOs and .mil).

Just got a letter in the mail today from the fire chief about this. Sounds like its a go and for good reason.

using other people's building sucks for the above reasons but you also have to pay rent for the building for the day, and some require you to pay for an agency provided safety officer to watch your group and ensure you are not wrecking their building. The letter I got states that Evergreen trains every Monday, you can only imagine what fuel and transport costs are to go to Denver for that.

In a community like Evergreen that is comprised of volunteers they will most likely only be burning on the weekend anyway. School will be out then and you would be aloof to think that they hadn't already taken that into account. Most of the training that building sees anyway won't be live fire anyway.

i say go for it and quit whining wankers!!!
Actually it would be Monday evenings- that's when the FD does their training usually, but still after school is out. And the chief has already stated that they're only doing this training once a month. The FD does burn building training down the hill on weekends because Monday nights are impossible due to time constraints. And yes, it costs a lot not just money, but time and training (they only do burn building training about twice a year, and not everyone goes).

My father spoke at one of the meetings and pretty much said these guys give up a Saturday to go train, they leave Station 2 at about 6:30AM and train all day. They come back around 5PM, clean up, put gear away, refill air bottles, and get home around 7. Then what happens if they get a call out at 8? Their family will look at that and hate that he's been gone all day and is going again, will they ever get family time?

[JM Ver. 2.0]

You can't really make that argument- gun owners are backed by the US Constitution... these people are fighting this without cause. It's easier to compare to people trying to fight Obama's reelection, granted there was rampant fraud, but nothing will be done with it, so we need to admit we lost and move on with our mission, getting someone better next time around, pressuring our side to do right, etc. In this instance, these folks need to realize that the training facility is going in, they lost that battle, now they need to focus on making sure the FD practices safety and prudence, which they will, but it never hurts to have the community be active in keeping those who serve in check (kind of like how modern society is always having that shred of oversight with LEOs and .mil).

Actually it would be Monday evenings- that's when the FD does their training usually, but still after school is out. And the chief has already stated that they're only doing this training once a month. The FD does burn building training down the hill on weekends because Monday nights are impossible due to time constraints. And yes, it costs a lot not just money, but time and training (they only do burn building training about twice a year, and not everyone goes).

My father spoke at one of the meetings and pretty much said these guys give up a Saturday to go train, they leave Station 2 at about 6:30AM and train all day. They come back around 5PM, clean up, put gear away, refill air bottles, and get home around 7. Then what happens if they get a call out at 8? Their family will look at that and hate that he's been gone all day and is going again, will they ever get family time?

I wasn't making an argument... I was being a jackass...

[PugnacAutMortem]

I wasn't making an argument... I was being a jackass...

[ROFL3]Honesty is always the best policy!

[Ronin13]

I wasn't making an argument... I was being a jackass...
Fair enough... [LOL]
And Pugnac's comment on honesty reminds me of Carlin's take on Bill Clinton: "Clinton- 'I'm completely full of shit, how do you like me now!?' Well, at least he's honest!" [ROFL1]

[brutal]

This isn't an underdog scenario though, this is a we didn't get our way so we are just going to vote no confidence on the board until we get one that does what we want. Oh and when our shit catches on fire and people haven't had the opportunity to train properly we will blame the FD for failing. It is a double edged sword and eventually you trip and fall on it.

I don't disagree it's a stupid battle against a more worthy cause, but isn't this what democracy is all about? Isn't this what we tried to do to oust Obama?

FWIW, we went through something similar a few years ago, that was all just a big waste of time, effort, and money. A select few tried to petition Parker to annex our subdivision. The majority were clearly and vocally against annexation. Yahoo groups went up, yard signs went up, YES group sued NO group for "campaign finance violations" (related to yard sign pass-thru costs no less), etc. etc. etc. and all the NO group was really trying to do other than block a stupid and unwanted annexation, was keep Parker from unnecessarily spending $10-15K on a ballot that was going to fail anyway. Push came to shove, Parker dropped the coin and the results? Something like 340 against annexation, 22 for. They exercised their right to fight for what they believed was in their best interest (damn everyone else and the facts) and lost. At least they went away quietly with their tails between their legs, hopefully never to return.

[Ronin13]

Resurrecting this thread for an important update- RECALL FAILS, All EVPD board members retain their positions in defeat of recall measure, each board member got around 6600 votes to favor them staying in, and around 1300 votes to be recalled. Not surprising considering most of the town supports the fire department, and the NO RECALL campaign was much more organized than the recall campaign was. [Beer]

[wreave]

Good news, except for the wasted expense to taxpayers.

[BPTactical]

Dear Diary.......

[nikolatesla19]

Spot on = "spoiled little child".
This type of attitude is why our country is the way it is.

[Ronin13]

Good news, except for the wasted expense to taxpayers.
Yeah, almost $70K... I think these entitled, selfish folks should have to foot the bill. Most of them live in the "nice" part of Evergreen, they can afford it.

[CroiDhubh]

Did they not understand that there wouldn't be fire roaring out of the place 24/7???

So...depend on the fire department to save them, but don't give the fire department the ability to train to do so...hmm...