Controversial Idea on Firearm Ownership

[Kraven251]

Now it has been made pretty apparent some sort of legislation is going to try to be passed to regulate firearms. We don't know what it is but can only speculate. So to that end if they want to pass something maybe we can give someone in the legislative food chain something that is palatable. Something that will allow the lawmakers feel as if they have had a victory without nailing us to a wall.

Since I am not in a position to move out of state, and I have rarely been one to run from a fight, how about something in the vein of this...

In order to purchase a firearm, you need to be able to provide proof that you have completed a gun safety course such as those required to apply for a CCW. These are classes that give an understanding of the law, address how to safely use a firearm, and are recommended by the NRA among other organizations as something that is beneficial to every responsible gun owner. It is an added expense, but it also is a benefit to those in the community that teach these courses. Beyond that we get the added bonus of more people being one step closer to having the ability to conceal carry.

The reason that I even propose something such as this, is when you have someone who just wants access to a weapon to do harm, this may serve as a hurdle to them that will cause them to take an alternate route that isn't firearm related or force them out of the legal acquisition path allowing us a defensible position. As well we are probably going to take a hit, but if it is possible to control how we take it and where we may be able to prevent some of the damage.

[StagLefty]

What about all of those out of the trunk sales ? More laws will not stop people who are determined to cause harm.

[Kraven251]

What about all of those out of the trunk sales ? More laws will not stop people who are determined to cause harm.

I agree completely. I am just looking for something that can be fed tot he anti-gun folks that could be palatable to the sane folks. Criminals will always be criminals, legislators never understand that, they just come up with shit that has little impact, but makes them feel good at the end of the day.

[asmo]

Yup. We should totally have to have a license or training before publicly speaking or traveling between the states as well.

[Teufelhund]

How about an IQ prerequisite to vote, and a license to post an opinion on an internet forum?

"Shall Not Be Infringed." If any of the four words comprising that phrase are confusing to someone, that person does not possess the intelligence required to be a lawmaker in the first place.

[Kraven251]

Yup. We should totally have to have a license or training before publicly speaking or traveling between the states as well.

note, I said purchase, but since you brought it up...

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed"

The argument has been made many times and luckily it never gained any traction, that the citizenry of the country is not a well regulated militia. The idea that I am proposing in my opinion takes most of the bite out of that as it could be stated that through this measure we have received proper training on use.

I am not supporting any anti-gun legislation, I am simply looking for an avenue that may satiate the need of some of these politicians for "justice" and not hamstring the industry in the state.

[Kraven251]

How about an IQ prerequisite to vote, and a license to post an opinion on an internet forum?

"Shall Not Be Infringed." If any of the four words comprising that phrase are confusing to someone, that person does not possess the intelligence required to be a lawmaker in the first place.

I completely agree...but to the not to be infringed, they could outlaw everything but a musket. While that is a complete extreme, it would still satisfy the requirement of the law, though could be contested on the intent.

[kidicarus13]

kraven251 is not making COAR friends

[asmo]

The argument has been made many times and luckily it never gained any traction, that the citizenry of the country is not a well regulated militia. The idea that I am proposing in my opinion takes most of the bite out of that as it could be stated that through this measure we have received proper training on use.


I'm getting on a flight home from DC in 2 minutes so I will make this short. I am guessing that you really don't know what your talking about - nor have you read any actual legal opinions on the subject. Try reading a bit and understanding what the difference is between an operative clause and a prefatory clause.

Report back. I look forward to reading the response when I land.

[newracer]

How about NO!

[lowbeyond]

[hahhah-no]

[bigmyk2k]

I was talking with my wife (an attorney) about this the other night. The militia part is a different aspect of it, that I don't want to get into, but technically, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" is the important part. The people are the citizens of the U.S., and the legal definition of infringement (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/infringement) would be, "The encroachment, breach, or violation of a right, law, regulation, or contract."

Certainly- whether through deterrent taxes; function, capacity, or other bans; etc- this right has been infringed. Of course, overturning the federal ban on automatic firearms for non-military citizens as unconstitutional would be one appropriate response, but I don't think anyone believes that will happen under this administration or congress. However, at the state level, if the discussion is about "throwing them a bone" I would support legislation which expanded or increased the judiciary's ability to punish those who use firearms in a harmful and felonious manner, and to enforce those laws which are already in place to keep firearms out of the hands of convicted felons as long as those new laws/regulations in no way impact the ability of responsible, law-abiding citizens to obtain, keep, use, or bear arms either directly or indirectly.

Due to the convolution of law, and enforcement, there are so many ways which well meaning legislation can be used to obstruct the rights of all citizens. It is very important to critically examine any legislation with an eye for the Law of Unintended Consequences.

[Ronin13]

Oooh, how about we just be like CA, have a 3-day waiting period on new firearm purchases? Oh, and let's close that gunshow "loophole"... Let's just shred the constitution a little bit, see if anyone notices... [fail]

[Kraven251]

I'm getting on a flight home from DC in 2 minutes so I will make this short. I am guessing that you really don't know what your talking about - nor have you read any actual legal opinions on the subject. Try reading a bit and understanding what the difference is between an operative clause and a prefatory clause.

Report back. I look forward to reading the response when I land.

Well I should have led with a prefatory clause, as opposed to an operative clause. As for the legal side of it most of the arguments and resolutions came out of the District of Columbia v. Heller decision and in turn tied a bunch of things together in a nice package. Which included that the Federal Government could require you to register firearms that were defined to be of a certain classification (NFA). That you could keep and bear arms for the purpose of self-defense within your home, relating to but not limited to handguns. It also established that self-defense was a basic right.

This doesn't disqualify the statement that folks have tried and failed to make that argument. My intent which I poorly conveyed is that not that the citizenry is not a militia, but may still not meet the "regulated" component if folks wanted to split hairs. The concept of disciplined or trained as a definition of regulated.

[bigmyk2k]

My intent which I poorly conveyed is that not that the citizenry is not a militia, but may still not meet the "regulated" component if folks wanted to split hairs. The concept of disciplined or trained as a definition of regulated.

I think if you look at contemporary documents, you will find that the intended meaning of this term is, "To keep regular", or constantly in place. Like fiber and probiotics regulate your colon.

[Kraven251]

I think if you look at contemporary documents, you will find that the intended meaning of this term is, "To keep regular", or constantly in place. Like fiber and probiotics regulate your colon.

I am just looking for how to make good out of the bad, because unless we are really lucky it isn't about how we are going to get fucked it is about how badly it is going to happen. However, I do appreciate the clarification.

[Teufelhund]

I think your intent is well-placed in trying to play nice with the antis in order to maintain your rights and still make everyone happy (i.e. make them shut up for at least a while). I disagree that compromise is the right solution. There is no room for compromise when it comes to further [unconstitutional] regulation of unalienable rights.

[00tec]

Give 'em an inch, they'll take a mile.

[ray1970]

Personally, I would love to see gun violence eliminated in our society.

Unfortunately, no form of legislation is going to accomplish this.

A county in recession is going to see people doing crazy, desperate things. I think the best way to reduce violent crime is to fix our f*****g economy.

[Kraven251]

I think your intent is well-placed in trying to play nice with the antis in order to maintain your rights and still make everyone happy (i.e. make them shut up for at least a while). I disagree that compromise is the right solution. There is no room for compromise when it comes to further [unconstitutional] regulation of unalienable rights.

I grew up in Illinois, so Colorado is the land of milk and honey when it comes to what I can legally own. I don't want to see any of it change. I just would prefer we are the masters of our own destiny on this rather than seeing bans on 25 rnd 10/22 mags.

[TFOGGER]

Scorched earth policy is the ONLY way of dealing with this. No compromise, because if we meet them half way, then the cycle begins again and we meet them half way again, effectively losing half of our rights each time. All in the name of being reasonable.

[kidicarus13]

Scorched earth policy is the ONLY way of dealing with this. No compromise, because if we meet them half way, then the cycle begins again and we meet them half way again, effectively losing half of our rights each time. All in the name of being reasonable.

I always seem to agree with TFOGGER

[patrick0685]

Give 'em an inch, they'll take a mile.

this...look at the rights we have already lost

[DOC]

I'm all for regulation. Hell lets pass a law that law breakers will follow. However, I don't like the laws that are on the books now. So I propose throwing them a bone and let them pass a new law after they scrap all the gun laws on the books now. Then they can show me what their common sense gun law will be. If something is working sometimes you have to start from square one.

[Kraven251]

Scorched earth policy is the ONLY way of dealing with this. No compromise, because if we meet them half way, then the cycle begins again and we meet them half way again, effectively losing half of our rights each time. All in the name of being reasonable.

I want to disagree with this statement, but I can't... It is the political climate, and you're right. 1000 papercuts, fuck me.

[Ronin13]

Give 'em an inch, they'll take a mile.
Yep... if you give a mouse a cookie...

[bigmyk2k]

Yep... if you give a mouse a cookie...

Had to look that one up. Very appropriate.

[Ronin13]

Had to look that one up. Very appropriate.
You never heard that story growing up? Hell, they say it in Air Force One (the film with Harrison Ford)- I just watched that the other day.[Coffee]

[bigmyk2k]

You never heard that story growing up? Hell, they say it in Air Force One (the film with Harrison Ford)- I just watched that the other day.[Coffee]

I was mostly grown when it came out, and don't have kids, so haven't seen it the second time around. Definitely missed the reference in the movie.

[Bailey Guns]

Now it has been made pretty apparent some sort of legislation is going to try to be passed to regulate firearms. We don't know what it is but can only speculate. So to that end if they want to pass something maybe we can give someone in the legislative food chain something that is palatable. Something that will allow the lawmakers feel as if they have had a victory without nailing us to a wall.

Since I am not in a position to move out of state, and I have rarely been one to run from a fight, how about something in the vein of this...

In order to purchase a firearm, you need to be able to provide proof that you have completed a gun safety course such as those required to apply for a CCW. These are classes that give an understanding of the law, address how to safely use a firearm, and are recommended by the NRA among other organizations as something that is beneficial to every responsible gun owner. It is an added expense, but it also is a benefit to those in the community that teach these courses. Beyond that we get the added bonus of more people being one step closer to having the ability to conceal carry.

The reason that I even propose something such as this, is when you have someone who just wants access to a weapon to do harm, this may serve as a hurdle to them that will cause them to take an alternate route that isn't firearm related or force them out of the legal acquisition path allowing us a defensible position. As well we are probably going to take a hit, but if it is possible to control how we take it and where we may be able to prevent some of the damage.

How about not only "NO", but "FUCK NO". Just what we need. More compromise of our liberties to liberals.

[ringhilt]

Kraken,

compromise with the anti's is futile. You can't bargain with someone who thinks what they own is theirs and what you own is negotiable. We the gun owners have been compromising for 100 years. in 1934 we lost machine guns (assault weapons) and suppressors (a.k.a. silencers) and artillery pieces and SBR's. Yes, prior to 1934 you could buy a cannon. but who would. they are outrageously expensive. in 1968 we lost direct mail order from the factory, instituted the 4473 form and forced everyone to go to a dealer. And since then they have instituted background checks, wait periods, licensing requirements (not all states), etc.
We have given, and given and given. Yet each tragedy the anti's call for more laws and more control. They scream about the mythical loophole. Well, no one explains the loop holes have been closed many times over. The anti's use it as a sound bite to scare people. it's an old Rules for Radicals strategy. Keep the people in a constant state of fear any they will beg you to enslave them. The anti's say they want reasonable, but never define reasonable. And what is reasonable to you is not reasonable to me. Then when you try to have a debate, the instance to deviate from their planned agenda, they scream you are obstructing forward progress, hate children and want to murder everyone then whine some more and shut down the debate. Basically when like little children, grab their ball and go home until you "compromise" some more in their favor while you get ass raped with a cactus.
Anyway, the bottom line is we have compromised and they still want more. At some point we need to put our feet down and say enough. where do we draw a hard line and say NO????????

I think we need to look at other factors besides guns. Each shooter seems to violate half dozen laws or more yet we need more laws. WTF? And something interesting that is not discussed is many of these nut bags have a history of mental illness and are taking SSRI anti depressant drugs. A known side effect is violent psychotic breakdowns. especially if you stop taking them cold turkey. Maybe we need to look at the mulit-billion pharmaceutical companies instead of guns???????

No more compromise until both sides can sit at the table and drill down to the actual root cause of the problem. It's not just guns. It's not just drugs. It is probably several factors and until we drill down to the root cause (or causes) we cannot make a rational decision on what laws we need.
As long as the anti's act like whiny little children throwing a temper tantrum, I say compromise is over.

[KestrelBike]

I like that you're coming up with ideas and thinking. I've been doing the same thing today (but have come up with much, much less).

Anyways, this idea constantly came up on the CA forums (cal-guns.net!) and some of the arguments against were that if you required such a class, it would necessarily cost money, and at that point, you're discriminating based on $$$. If it was "free", it was an additional tax for everyone to pay. Then there was the slippery slope of *how much* training was required, and lawmakers could slip in stuff like A) oh, a 2-4hr class isn't going to cut it: only people trained at a military level! and at that point, you've got class-based rights.

As for the "militia" aspect, just going by what the media makes out of Militias, they are overwhelming and automatically designated as psuedo white-supremacist terrorist organizations. Honestly, what Militia in the United States is even approved of by our government? It's a complete double-standard given by the a-holes who tried to argue that the 2nd Amendment wasn't about individual rights, it was only about revolutionary-era "militia" organizations.

[Kraven251]

I did some digging and based largely on posts from this forum and other information I found in a few places I have a slightly different idea now...

Legislators have been trying to ban firearms for who knows how long...and it has gotten us nowhere. So that coupled with the realization that TFOGGER had a truly valid point, and a conversation I had with an Israeli friend of mine, I came up with my second idea of the day on the subject.

Educate, train, and arm everyone. Hell if a reporter from CNN can enjoy shooting for the first time, why not embrace the idea. I'm not even being funny, I am absolutely serious.

Stop Regulating and Start Educating.

[DOC]

Why not. We've tried everything else. Now we could try something that makes sense.

[Bailey Guns]

I did some digging and based largely on posts from this forum and other information I found in a few places I have a slightly different idea now...

Legislators have been trying to ban firearms for who knows how long...and it has gotten us nowhere. So that coupled with the realization that TFOGGER had a truly valid point, and a conversation I had with an Israeli friend of mine, I came up with my second idea of the day on the subject.

Educate, train, and arm everyone. Hell if a reporter from CNN can enjoy shooting for the first time, why not embrace the idea. I'm not even being funny, I am absolutely serious.

Stop Regulating and Start Educating.

Not a bad idea...but it's nothing new. Some of us (collectively as gun owners) have been doing this for years...maybe even decades.

[low drag]

You are assuming the anti-gun crowd is being honest in their intent. Some are, most only think we can have a good country if no one owns guns save the rich and politicians.

Remember, utopia is the opiate the liberals/progressive.

[Great-Kazoo]

I did some digging and based largely on posts from this forum and other information I found in a few places I have a slightly different idea now...

Legislators have been trying to ban firearms for who knows how long...and it has gotten us nowhere. So that coupled with the realization that TFOGGER had a truly valid point, and a conversation I had with an Israeli friend of mine, I came up with my second idea of the day on the subject.

Educate, train, and arm everyone. Hell if a reporter from CNN can enjoy shooting for the first time, why not embrace the idea. I'm not even being funny, I am absolutely serious.

Stop Regulating and Start Educating.


There is this education class called Eddie Eagle, a NRA firearm style awareness course for children. However thee have been no educational systems within the US that have embraced FREE Safety Classes for Children. NOT ONE. People would rather have ignorant children regarding guns, yet allow sex education, same sex awareness, condom distribution etc.

Oooh, how about we just be like CA, have a 3-day waiting period on new firearm purchases

Sorry but it's 10 days, not 3. Then you must show you have a CADOJ approved gun lock AND or storage area, prior to purchase.

[HBARleatherneck]

delete

[Americus]

I agree that education is key to understanding someone's point of view. Fear and ignorance and the trampling of other's views and beliefs has always stemmed from a lack of education. I think the only thing we as gun-owners can continue to do is educate.

Furthermore, we need to start educating parents on the desensitization that these 'shooter' games have on children. Kids see more violence today on TV and video games than ever before, and so now you have young adults that think there's some sort of reset button after you die. I'm sure all of you fellow combat veterans out there will agree with me when I say that there is a very distinct feel, smell, and sense of finality when it comes to death in a combat environment. You don't come back from that shit.

I for one will continue to educate anyone who will listen on the importance of gun safety and ownership. And I will never allow anyone, don't care who they are, convince me otherwise.

[cstone]

If guns are so bad, let all of the government owned guns be destroyed first; then maybe we can discuss the disposition and restitution I require for the confiscation of my personal property.

People who don't own guns are willing to give up a right they don't use. Why would they care about your rights?

Regardless of the subject, you cannot teach someone something they are not willing to learn. The facts on weapon ownership not having any relationship to gun related crimes doesn't seem to impact anyone who wants to discuss gun rights.

Be safe.

[bryjcom]

Now it has been made pretty apparent some sort of legislation is going to try to be passed to regulate firearms. We don't know what it is but can only speculate. So to that end if they want to pass something maybe we can give someone in the legislative food chain something that is palatable. Something that will allow the lawmakers feel as if they have had a victory without nailing us to a wall.

Since I am not in a position to move out of state, and I have rarely been one to run from a fight, how about something in the vein of this...

In order to purchase a firearm, you need to be able to provide proof that you have completed a gun safety course such as those required to apply for a CCW. These are classes that give an understanding of the law, address how to safely use a firearm, and are recommended by the NRA among other organizations as something that is beneficial to every responsible gun owner. It is an added expense, but it also is a benefit to those in the community that teach these courses. Beyond that we get the added bonus of more people being one step closer to having the ability to conceal carry.

The reason that I even propose something such as this, is when you have someone who just wants access to a weapon to do harm, this may serve as a hurdle to them that will cause them to take an alternate route that isn't firearm related or force them out of the legal acquisition path allowing us a defensible position. As well we are probably going to take a hit, but if it is possible to control how we take it and where we may be able to prevent some of the damage.


So, your saying that if people have to take a class on how to use a gun safely, then they won't go on an intentional shooting rampage????

Makes sense to me!!!!!

[Irving]

Furthermore, we need to start educating parents on the desensitization that these 'shooter' games have on children. Kids see more violence today on TV and video games than ever before, and so now you have young adults that think there's some sort of reset button after you die.

Can you provide any evidence of this? I grew up playing violent video games, as did everyone else in my generation, and the generations after me, and I've yet to encounter a single person who thinks that a reset button exists. One could make the same argument for watching violent movies, then seeing the actors appear later in other movies, at award shows, in the news, etc.

[ChunkyMonkey]

The 'Violent games' of the old days caused real pain. Today's virtual games detach reality from fantasy.

[DOC]

I agree that education is key to understanding someone's point of view. Fear and ignorance and the trampling of other's views and beliefs has always stemmed from a lack of education. I think the only thing we as gun-owners can continue to do is educate.

Furthermore, we need to start educating parents on the desensitization that these 'shooter' games have on children. Kids see more violence today on TV and video games than ever before, and so now you have young adults that think there's some sort of reset button after you die. I'm sure all of you fellow combat veterans out there will agree with me when I say that there is a very distinct feel, smell, and sense of finality when it comes to death in a combat environment. You don't come back from that shit.

I for one will continue to educate anyone who will listen on the importance of gun safety and ownership. And I will never allow anyone, don't care who they are, convince me otherwise.
5 posts and you think you don't have anything to learn?
Go now. For we don't require your arms or counsel. May your chains set lightly upon you.

[centrarchidae]

In order to purchase a firearm, you need to be able to provide proof that you have completed a gun safety course such as those required to apply for a CCW.


So, in other words, you want to copy the Illinois Firearms Owner Identification card system, only with the additional training hoop to jump through, on top of the creative incompetence that the ISP already applies to the FOID process?

That's absolutely genius.[hahhah-no]

ETA, as noted elsewhere, we've compromised with them before: in 1934 (NFA), and 1968 (GCA), and 1986 (FOPA), and 1989 (GHWB's import ban), and 1993 (Brady), and 1994 (Lautenberg). Have you not learned by now, if you give someone else a bite of your apple, two things happen: nobody else wants the apple anymore, and he doesn't just take one bite?

[bryjcom]

The 'Violent games' of the old days caused real pain. Today's virtual games detach reality from fantasy.

Your absolutely right. I was horrified when I got to this level and refused to shoot anyone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UadzYIwors<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UadzYIwors" target="_blank">
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UadzYIwors (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UadzYIwors)

[Americus]

5 posts and you think you don't have anything to learn?
Go now. For we don't require your arms or counsel. May your chains set lightly upon you.

Doc, You think just because I only have five posts (now six) on this forum that I am some kind of 'newbie' to the world of guns? I didn't realize that you needed to have over 1,800 posts to be an expert on guns. How's over 20 years of shooting experience with real world knowledge of engaging live targets that shoot back? I hope your not angry with me about that whole 'gamer' comment I made. I was just voicing my opinion on the subject, and that's all that it is.

[Americus]

Can you provide any evidence of this? I grew up playing violent video games, as did everyone else in my generation, and the generations after me, and I've yet to encounter a single person who thinks that a reset button exists. One could make the same argument for watching violent movies, then seeing the actors appear later in other movies, at award shows, in the news, etc.

Irving, I apolgize, I wasn't trying to be literal about the reset button thing. I know younger people that play these games are smart enough to know better than that. I'm one of those weirdos that can still remember what life was like before video games, but also saw their popularity rise to where they are at now.

I guess I was trying to illustrate that younger people nowadays are desensitized to violence due to some of these games, and as you said, some of the movies. I'm definitely no expert on child psychology, but I think it's worth looking at as a parent when deciding when their kids should be exposed to stuff like guns, the safety concerns with guns, what they can do to others in the wrong hands, and how to have lifelong enjoyment with guns.

[Irving]

I remember playing DOOM on the computer with my cousin once when we were pretty young. We were saying something along the lines of if this ever really happened, how we'd stick together. My dad walked by and said, "You know this isn't real right?" I didn't even know how to respond to him because I thought it was such a stupid question. We weren't having a conversation about the possibility of shotgunning monsters in the face in a dark building, we were confirming each other's loyalty to each other through times thick and thin. My dad just happened to be walking by and mistook a very healthy conversation, as an unhealthy one.

I was old enough to drive when Grand Theft Auto came out. I remember my friends making comments about the adjustment from driving around carjacking, crashing into things, and running down prostitutes, to getting into your own car to drive home. I remember that it was completely unheard of to be able to negatively interact with a life like character over and over and over (stomping a body around after you already killed it), and it was disturbing at first, but I adapted to it and accepted it as part of the game. It is what you do while playing the game. I can say the same thing about joining committees at work. I'd rather not, but it is part of the corporate dance that you do to get promotions.

I bring all this up to share that around the time GTA came out, was when I decided to buy a Corn snake from the pet store. More than any video game I ever played, more than any of the horrible things I watched on Ogrish when those sites were popular, what really had the greatest affect on me was having to kill mice for my snake. Sometimes I would let the snake do the work, and while it was awesome to behold, it wasn't any more comfortable to watch. I had that snake for almost four years, and killed a lot of mice. I got used to it, but I never enjoyed it.

I guess the conclusion to this long post is that movies, books, videos, and video games are just what they are, and not usually any more. People tend to forget that along with video games, kids are still experiencing real life at the same time. They experience real life death of family members, kids at school, and their pets. The experiences of real life will always outweigh those of entertainment media. If you have a kid that doesn't blink an eye when Fido or grandma dies, then you may look into getting some kind of evaluation done. Chances are, if someone has a mental condition, it was there all along and wasn't dependent on whether they played video games or not.

[Americus]

Fair enough.

[losttrail]

On one hand I like the idea of some sort of mandatory training before a person can buy a firearm. Simply because we generally are no longer a society that grows up with firearms as many of us here did. My entire family has owned firearms for generations. Much of it was out of necessity for procuring food and self protection based on living in remote wilderness.

However, the vast majority of the populace anymore is urban and most are not raised from birth within a family that are owners of firearms. Nor is there an automatic download that happens at age 18 or 21 that immediately imparts knowledge of firearms.

That said, I do NOT trust our government, especially the current administration, nor do I trust the Liberals (Marxists) that would be willing to work 'with' us to take away any rights or percentage of our rights. Our elected "representatives" have compromised far too much already and have given us a socialist government and economy that is leading us towards one world currency, one world government that will be much closer to the USSR, GDR of old.

This is the time where we will stand or fall.

[brutal]

I would be cautious of any effort to train the thugs we're all carrying to protect ourselves from.

[Dave_L]

Parenting. It no longer exists in the amount of households it used to. Now we see the effects.

[brutal]

Why would anyone parent? The gubmint will take care of everything.