A question for... LEOs? Gun store owners/employees?

[jake]

I mentioned in another thread that I spend time on a forum dedicated to football (proper football!) so most of the users are British or European. As with the Aurora shootings, this one is big news worldwide so it's being discussed on their board. Obviously there's a lot of misinformation and lack of knowledge floating around but I've been trying to avoid participating this time as I offered to answer questions last time and made the mistake of telling them what I owned and why. My collection got me labelled as a dangerous nutcase whereas if I listed it here you'd probably be questioning my sexuality*.

Anyway, in both threads a few people mentioned visiting a range as a tourist and renting guns. They talked about needing a state issued ID before they could rent, and being sold a hunting license for this purpose. As further evidence about how easy it is to buy a fully automatic submachine gun from every 7-11 in the country, they acted as if a tourist could also buy a firearm with just this license.

So I was wondering what would happen if a tourist did try and purchase a firearm in such a manner? I know that if they filled in the form honestly, the clerk would almost certainly pick up on it and end the sale tout suite, but would s/he do anything else such as notify law enforcement? And what if said tourist filled in the form dishonestly, maybe making up a resident alien number, or claiming to be a US citizen? I assume they'd fail the background check but would it be taken any further? Arrest? Deportation?

I really want to encourage them to try it next time they're visiting for no other reason than Bill Gates has yet to pull his finger out and invent a way for me to slap people via the internet.


* or at least it would if I hadn't recently tried this new 'take your guns boating' fad :D

[merl]

So I was wondering what would happen if a tourist did try and purchase a firearm in such a manner? I know that if they filled in the form honestly, the clerk would almost certainly pick up on it and end the sale tout suite, but would s/he do anything else such as notify law enforcement? And what if said tourist filled in the form dishonestly, maybe making up a resident alien number, or claiming to be a US citizen? I assume they'd fail the background check but would it be taken any further? Arrest? Deportation?

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf
question 12, then
page 5, question 20c

valid hunting license looks like it lets you buy a gun.

[spqrzilla]

The answer to your question is in the ATF FAQ. A non-resident alien can buy a firearm only if they've been resident in the US for 90 days, and have a hunting license.



Q: May aliens legally in the United States buy firearms? An alien legally in the U.S. may acquire firearms if he has a State of residence. An alien has a State of residence only if he is residing in that State and has resided in a State continuously for at least 90 days prior to the purchase. An alien acquiring firearms from a licensee is required to prove both his identity, by presenting a government-issued photo identification, and his residency with substantiating documentation showing that he has resided in the State continuously for the 90-day period prior to the purchase. Examples of qualifying documentation to prove residency include: utility bills, lease agreements, credit card statements, and pay stubs from the purchaser’s place of employment, if such documents include residential addresses.
See also Item 5, “Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication.
[18 U.S.C. 921, 922(b)(3), (d) and (g), 27 CFR 478.11 and 478.99(a)]


This link here from the ATF (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/non-immigrant-aliens.pdf) explains the rules for non-immigrant aliens which changed in April of 2012. There you see the requirement of a hunting license for a non-immigrant alien to take possession. However, I do think that this requirement applies to a rental within a firing range by a tourist. I think some range has misapplied the rules.

This exception exists to allow a tourist to come to the US for the purpose of hunting.

Note to return to their home country with the firearm is going to take an export license.

[jake]

Thanks both, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking what would happen if a tourist tried to buy a firearm, more specifically what penalties they might face.

Being a former resident alien myself, I'm versed in the hoops they must jump through to purchase a firearm.

I've also used a hunting license for purchases as proof of address when I didn't have my current address on my DL.

I just want to be able to fantasise about what might have happened to those people who are saying "herp derp 'merica's so crazy I could buy an Uzi with just a hunting license."

Edit: just read the link in spqrzilla's post. Looks like another one of my fantasies has been spoiled.

[Zundfolge]

Thanks both, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking what would happen if a tourist tried to buy a firearm, more specifically what penalties they might face.

A tourist would be refused sale. As long as it didn't look like they were knowingly trying to violate the law it would probably end with that.

Usually the "crime" surrounding attempted purchases by prohibited persons is when they lie on the 4473 form.

[Great-Kazoo]

Thanks both, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking what would happen if a tourist tried to buy a firearm, more specifically what penalties they might face.

Being a former resident alien myself, I'm versed in the hoops they must jump through to purchase a firearm.

I've also used a hunting license for purchases as proof of address when I didn't have my current address on my DL.

I just want to be able to fantasise about what might have happened to those people who are saying "herp derp 'merica's so crazy I could buy an Uzi with just a hunting license."

He would be denied once they saw he did not have residency in the state. OR he could buy on online with no problem, according to the media and .gov officials. His choice:)

[spqrzilla]

I'd be pretty surprised if anyone actually tried to arrest and charge someone who tried to buy a firearm who was not qualified. But I can't see it getting that far in any scenario, its going to be obvious that they are not residents and any store that tried to get sufficient info from them to go forward with a non-resident alien purchase is going to stop the process long before once they can't show the required documentation.

[dwalker460]

My understanding is you can only buy a rifle, or a hunting pistol.

[Zundfolge]

I'd be pretty surprised if anyone actually tried to arrest and charge someone who tried to buy a firearm who was not qualified.
There has to be "Intent" in order for it to be a crime for someone who is not qualified to purchase a firearm to attempt a purchase.

You always hear the line "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" and that's not entirely true.

As long as the attempt to purchase doesn't include any deception on the part of the would-be purchaser, there is no crime committed.

[jerrymrc]

I know a few people that own hunting rifles and shotguns back home but have a fondness for the SLR (Fal) and kinda keep them here in the states. They come over a couple of times a year and shoot. [Flower]

Us old guys get to play with our old A-1's in semi so why should an old British solder not get to play with what he carried in the Army. [mop]