(Some) Liberals and Gun Control

[Singlestack]

In the wake of the terrible murders in Connecticut last week, I spoke to my liberal sister-in-law this weekend. She is solidly anti-2A and fairly accurately mirrors the opinions of Feinstein. I wanted to understand the foundations of her opinions by asking about what she believed. The short of it is she believes that average (law abiding) citizens can't be trusted with firearms.

To support her point, she pointed to lack of criminal record by many mass murderers in history, including James the Joker Holmes and the nutjob last week. That is, the criminal justice system hadn't previously identified those people, at least not before their murders. Her belief is anyone can "snap" and go on a killing spree, regardless of how normal they seem to be. The conversation even got more interesting when I probed a little further. I asked her is she thought I (as a gun owner) was capable of committing mass murder. Shockingly, she said possibly yes, under the right circumstances - but had no idea what such circumstances might be. Then I asked her is she thought that she was capable of committing mass murder. Even more shockingly, she said the same thing! Holy cow. She told me that many liberals believe that mass murder impulses are in all of us, and just require the right conditions/circumstances to "bring it out". She dismissed any discussion about evil behavior and evil people, and denied that either really exist. It was then clear to me where she was coming from - the liberal mindset dealing with moral relativism (no real right or wrong) and not judging others. My last question was if she thought many others felt the same way - apparently most of her friends and those she stays acquainted with have that belief system or something similar. She did say that not all liberals have the same beliefs, and there are many shades of gray between individuals.

While I found the discussion jarring, it did explain at least one angle of the anti-2A belief system. Since they cannot trust the population at large and we are all individually "ticking time bombs", the only thing that makes sense is a total Gun ban. Some are anguished over hunting rights, and try to walk a train of thought that hunters can have some guns, but nobody else should. Others, who are sometimes viewed by the far left as being more "ideologically pure", favor a complete Gun ban, including law enforcement. Most of those are in the PETA/animal rights crowd.

While the discussion was a bit disturbing, it did at least explain the thinking of some as to why they are so against guns. I told her I absolutely disagreed that anyone can be a mass murderer, although current events and desperation can possibly lead a very disturbed individual to take a final step. However, it was pretty clear that I wasn't going to change many years of indoctrination into liberal psychology and we agreed to disagree.

Anyone else have any similar discussions/observations with family, friends, acquaintances?

Singlestack

[Zundfolge]

I've come to the conclusion that liberals fall into two camps; Stupid and Evil.

Most are stupid (its the elites like Obama and Bloomberg are among the Evil Ones).

[Kraven251]

Anyone is capable of anything, while those actions are highly improbable, it is always possible. Though that as an argument is no way to plan for anything, other than the world running around in giant pillow suits eating bland food.

[jake]

Anyone is capable of anything, while those actions are highly improbable, it is always possible. Though that as an argument is no way to plan for anything, other than the world running around in giant pillow suits eating bland food.
Slow down there buddy, you might trip and hurt yourself.

[NMB2]

I disassociated myself with all of my liberal family members (which was only two) and friends.

They are either stupid or evil, and both categories are the enemy.

[Kraven251]

Slow down there buddy, you might trip and hurt yourself.

oh you are right...we would walk slowly, we should simply outlaw running

[Zundfolge]

I disassociated myself with all of my liberal family members (which was only two) and friends.
I've done the same thing in recent years.

And frankly its the hate that comes from their side that finally got me to cut them all off.

I look back at my 20s (I'm in my 40s now) and while I was always in that conservative to libertarian part of the political spectrum, I had many friends (some pretty close) that were liberals. We hung out, we talked about things (rarely politics) and we were all friends. But then sometime after the 2000 election I started noticing that more and more my liberal friends were becoming hostile, angry and hateful. All through the Bush years their hatred and hostility grew until finally with the 2008 election the line was crossed and I could no longer associate with any of my liberal friends or family.

It kinda bothers me because I'm pretty sure what is going on here is that the left is forcing this division in our culture as a means of bringing our culture (and by extension our country) down. But I refuse to put up with hateful people, so I guess I'm playing right into the hands of the Critical Theory of Marxism crowd.

[Goodburbon]

fundamentally they can't trust themselves, and by proxy feel that no one else can be trusted either.

[hawk1]

So does she believe that the .gov is the ONLY entity that can be trusted? That it ACTUALLY keeps the best interest of its people at heart? Does she believe we answer to the .gov or does she believe the .gov answers to us?

just curious...

[MarkCO]

She told me that many liberals believe that mass murder impulses are in all of us, and just require the right conditions/circumstances to "bring it out". She dismissed any discussion about evil behavior and evil people, and denied that either really exist.

Liberalism is a religion with Relativsim as a basic tenant. It has been infused into our public educational system since the 1960s. Your description of her underlies the basic relativistic teachings. Old books like "I'm OK, You're OK" discussed this very thing. Relativism, coupled with the political correctness movement that basically says it is NOT okay to label anyone as anything "abnormal," creates a disorienting and confusing reality, especially for the ones that are not normal.

Our society wants to blame everything BUT the responsible person when anything goes wrong. It is forbodden to label anyone and everyone gets blue ribbons and told how great they are...that is a false enforcement.

Look at the commonalities of the recent mass shooters...17-25, divorced parents, withdrawn, above average intelligence, video gamers, no close friends, fascination with death and killing, no accountability, identified as abnormal, but never "labeled and treated". Regardless of the hidden darkness, THEY knew they were not normal, but everyone kept doing nothing to help. At some point, they are injected into a world that is neither friendly nor fair and having been treated with kid gloves, they don't have to tools to cope and they have been taught that there are no absolutes, that they themsleves are meaningless. How can we tell them they are important when they see the constant and relentless objectification and devaluation of human life.

Kids NEED boundaries, absolutes, penalties and rewards...it is part of human nature.

In reality, the best way to stop the vast problems in our society would be to require a license to procreate...that ain't going to happen...

[Singlestack]

fundamentally they can't trust themselves, and by proxy feel that no one else can be trusted either.

Exactly. I really think many of them do not understand those who are self-reliant and hold themselves to a much higher standard. There is a natural tendency for people to believe others think and act like them. The older I get the more I'm realizing that is absolutely not the case.

[Singlestack]

So does she believe that the .gov is the ONLY entity that can be trusted? That it ACTUALLY keeps the best interest of its people at heart? Does she believe we answer to the .gov or does she believe the .gov answers to us?
just curious...

I don't think thats quite what she believes, but I do know she does trust the government since it is (in her mind) a collectivist entity that generally enforces collective rights and defends the "less fortunate". From other conversations, I know she subscribes to "looking out for the downtrodden" as more important than "keeping the best interest of its people at heart". She says she believes the gov answers to us, but more figuratively than literally. That is, the representatives should listen to the citizens, but in the end must support actions that aim to "look out for the downtrodden" regardless of where they are in the world, as the main priority.

[Aloha_Shooter]

Seems about spot on. Modern liberalism depends on moral relativism or it collapses from its own ideological inadequacies. You can never blame the "victim" -- always some Evil outside (Right Wing) force (guns, Bush, Cheney, etc.). No one is responsible for anything they do or don't do because Government or Google are supposed to do or know all that for us. People are both helpless and can't be trusted while the Government is all-powerful, all-knowing and always true; where Government isn't true (e.g., doesn't recognize homosexual marriage/persecutes marijuana smokers/allows people to display crosses or other Judeo-Christian symbolism), it's because it was corrupted by some Evil Right Wing force.

Where once kids in elementary school could learn the fundamentals of math, grammar and American history from short commercials with memorable lyrics, American children are now viewed as incapable of learning anything without vast educational bureaucracies and it's not their fault if they don't know simple multiplication tables (I'm talking about simple stuff like 3x8, 7x6, 5x33) by age 15.

The Left wins when it divides the Center and Right so Balkanization is part of their methodology: we're all XXXXXXXXX-Americans with emphasis on what divides rather than what unites us. Notice mention of the Great American Melting Pot has all but disappeared from the common vernacular in the past 20 years?

What's the solution? Well, I start by expecting people to know something. When one of my Scouts has a simple grammar or math problem, I toss a copy of Schoolhouse Rock their way and tell them my generation knew all that by 5th or 6th grade so they should to. I teach using the Socratic method -- I ask them questions instead of giving them the answers and purposely ask questions so they can't just use Google to get the answers. They're not allowed to use automated tools or lookups until they demonstrate an ability to do the work manually or know where to hunt for answers (so the automation enhances the thinking process rather than substitutes for it).

Look for ways to hurt their heads by working out the consequences of their idiotic statements: Well, gee, I guess I might not need to defend myself if the cops could respond in 15-30 seconds. How many additional cops would we need to hire to place them no more than 30 seconds away from everyone all day? What's that going to do to your taxes? Where are we going to store all those vehicles, uniforms and other police items? I wonder why the New Life Church incident wasn't as bad as Columbine? Why do you suppose the crime rates are worse in Prince Georges County, Maryland than in Fairfax County, Virginia?

[IShouldDoThisAllTheTime]

thers, who are sometimes viewed by the far left as being more "ideologically pure", favor a complete Gun ban, including law enforcement. Most of those are in the PETA/animal rights crowd.

I know gun-toting PETA members.

The single-axis philosophy of politics is deeply flawed.

[Inspector Fowler]

The reality is this:

When all the dust settles, 6 months, or 9 months, or whenever, politicians on both sides of the aisle will have made a lot of noisy speeches and passed some laws, but nothing will likely change. The conservative politicians will vow to stop all gun control in all forms, no matter what it is, and their voters will love them. The liberal politicians will decry the evils of removable magazines and (God forbid!) magazines that have more than 10 rounds in them, removable or not, and their voters will cry in public over their moral courage. If I am lucky, my rights will barely be degraded (although I believe some erosion is inevitable, sadly). If I'm unlucky, half the weapons I own will suddenly become "LE only" weapons. Either way, everybody loses. Some schools will become like South Central schools, more prisons than anything else.

The fundamental problems will continue unchecked. Families will still raise children who have a very flexible sense of right and wrong. People will still be willing to put themselves before others - indeed, they will view that as more important. Deeply, deeply mentally ill people will still, for most purposes, have unrestricted access to firearms. Every time there is a shooting like this, I guarantee there are one or more shrinks who knew the person was dangerously violent but did not meet the legal requirements to be hospitalized.

It's sort of inevitable. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Nobody will look for a real solution that is comprehensive, that involves actually dealing with mentally ill people (even if that means removing the rights of the most severely ill of them) and respecting the rights of the tens of millions of gun owners who would shoot themselves before they'd shoot a kid. We'll get a lot of fearsome speeches and when all is said and done, the liberals will feel safer because people won't be able to buy those terrifying black rifles, and the conservatives will have "done their best" to preserve rights, while probably not succeeding. Sigh.

[hollohas]

Liberalism is a religion with Relativsim as a basic tenant. It has been infused into our public educational system since the 1960s. Your description of her underlies the basic relativistic teachings. Old books like "I'm OK, You're OK" discussed this very thing. Relativism, coupled with the political correctness movement that basically says it is NOT okay to label anyone as anything "abnormal," creates a disorienting and confusing reality, especially for the ones that are not normal.

Our society wants to blame everything BUT the responsible person when anything goes wrong. It is forbodden to label anyone and everyone gets blue ribbons and told how great they are...that is a false enforcement.

Look at the commonalities of the recent mass shooters...17-25, divorced parents, withdrawn, above average intelligence, video gamers, no close friends, fascination with death and killing, no accountability, identified as abnormal, but never "labeled and treated". Regardless of the hidden darkness, THEY knew they were not normal, but everyone kept doing nothing to help. At some point, they are injected into a world that is neither friendly nor fair and having been treated with kid gloves, they don't have to tools to cope and they have been taught that there are no absolutes, that they themsleves are meaningless. How can we tell them they are important when they see the constant and relentless objectification and devaluation of human life.

Kids NEED boundaries, absolutes, penalties and rewards...it is part of human nature.



VERY well said, sir.

[newracer]

Truth is she doesn't trust herself with firearms and she thinks everyone is like her. I'd watch your back if I was you.

[Inspector Fowler]

Truth is she doesn't trust herself with firearms and she thinks everyone is like her. I'd watch your back if I was you.

I remember when I turned 21 I wanted to buy a pistol. I got a Glock 22. I didn't even have any ammo for it yet, and I showed a friend. He's a good guy, but very, very liberal in his thinking (he was at the time, at least, haven't seen him since college).

He asked me if I was going to shoot him now, and I was stunned. I asked him if he thought that the gun was somehow whispering murderous thoughts to me, and he joked about it, but I could tell he was really felt like simply having the pistol made me somehow want to kill him. I wanted to jam it in his hand, and run away screaming in mock fright to see if he got the point, but I just looked at him with that one eyebrow raised look you give a crazy person before you back out of a room.

[pepito]

http://i.imgur.com/4XUme.jpg

[Whistler]

Now that's the way a thread should be done! [HiFive]

[alxone]

fundamentally they can't trust themselves, and by proxy feel that no one else can be trusted either. i have to use this one [Beer]

[ChadAmberg]

I would up the ante a bit, and tell her that because of what she said, you feel you should call the authorities and have her committed as a possible danger to herself and others.

[Singlestack]

I would up the ante a bit, and tell her that because of what she said, you feel you should call the authorities and have her committed as a possible danger to herself and others.

Unfortunately, takes more than that these days to get someone committed. Didn't use to be that way, tho, but states dropped funding for the bulk of the mental hospitals in the 70's and 80's. Just the same I do think I learned something by talking to her, and never had till now an appreciation that at least some liberals have a view that nobody can be trusted and all of us are potential mass murderers. I do feel certain that (in some twisted alternate reality) if the choice was my life or those kids in the classroom the kids would live. I would also say that 100% of those I know well would make the same choice.

Singlestack

[ChadAmberg]

Unfortunately, takes more than that these days to get someone committed. Didn't use to be that way, tho, but states dropped funding for the bulk of the mental hospitals in the 70's and 80's. Just the same I do think I learned something by talking to her, and never had till now an appreciation that at least some liberals have a view that nobody can be trusted and all of us are potential mass murderers. I do feel certain that (in some twisted alternate reality) if the choice was my life or those kids in the classroom the kids would live. I would also say that 100% of those I know well would make the same choice.

Singlestack

I'm not saying do it, I mean tell her you're going to do it. Let her know how "easy" it would be. Maybe she'll realize it's much easier to abuse the system like that.