argument for FTF sales

[merl]

So does anyone have a good argument for allowing FTF sales without background checks?

Heard Gov Hickenlooper on the radio this morning said the private sales were on the block for next year.

There is the obvious argument, "it is my property I can do what I want with it" That is a legit argument but will not fly. Anyone got better ones?

[blacklabel]

There's nothing that holds more weight than respecting my private property and my right to do with it as I see fit.

[merl]

There's nothing that holds more weight than respecting my private property and my right to do with it as I see fit.

I agre with you but that wont sway anyone who might be on the fence about it.


He also mentioned expanded background checks and waiting periods but was less specific about that.

[Great-Kazoo]

Do you need to have DMV approval prior to selling a vehicle. Do you need to pass a BG check for buying Alcohol? Do they need to infringe any more on my RIGHTS as a US CITIZEN?

[trlcavscout]

Its gonna be just like it was in Las Vegas, gun registration for everyone. FTF sales had to be done at the PD with a background check.

[blacklabel]

The gun culture needs to pull up its skirt, grab itself by the balls and quit apologizing for exercising its rights or rationalizing it beyond the fact that they're rights and they shouldn't be infringed upon.

[merl]

Do you need to have DMV approval prior to selling a vehicle. Do you need to pass a BG check for buying Alcohol? Do they need to infringe any more on my RIGHTS as a US CITIZEN?


Do you need to have DMV approval prior to selling a vehicle.
you do for the buyer to legally use it. don't go with that one.


Do you need to pass a BG check for buying Alcohol?
given history in this state and nation, some people would be all for this...

People are after our rights again in the name of public safety. I'm looking for things that might defuse their points.

[Great-Kazoo]

you do for the buyer to legally use it. don't go with that one. I said to SELL, not for the Buyer to use. You asked one question and have veered off topic.


given history in this state and nation, some people would be all for this...

People are after our rights again in the name of public safety. I'm looking for things that might defuse their points.

Forget history as it seems the dem's liberals and anti-gun crowd have and are are about to in a major way. You are either for or against guns. There is no middle of the road. All the waffling and hand wringing has to stop. Stand up and be counted OR SELL YOUR GUNS NOW.
it's been beaten to death here and other discussion forums. Do not Argue with an IDIOT. Nothing short of a pissing match will get their attention. They are like dog(SQUIRREL)S. Short attention span and no will power to think for them self.

Oh it's so terrible. Yes it is. Its horrendous. However CT has strict gun laws in place, which did nothing to stop this atrocity, NOTHING!

[Sharpienads]

The gun culture needs to pull up its skirt, grab itself by the balls and quit apologizing for exercising its rights or rationalizing it beyond the fact that they're rights and they shouldn't be infringed upon.

Amen!

[HBARleatherneck]

no concessions.

we have the Second Ammendment.

[merl]

If the best argument we have when a bill pops up next year banning face to face sales is "It is my property, I can do what I want with it." we will lose the argument. It seems there is nothing else to say in response though.




BTW, try selling a car without papers (title) the buyer can take to the DMV. Vehicles are very heavily regulated in sale and use because they are not a right. We do not want to make that link.

[Great-Kazoo]

If the best argument we have when a bill pops up next year banning face to face sales is "It is my property, I can do what I want with it." we will lose the argument. It seems there is nothing else to say in response though.




BTW, try selling a car without papers (title) the buyer can take to the DMV. Vehicles are very heavily regulated in sale and use because they are not a right. We do not want to make that link.


Get off the cars, please. Do i need a tracking device to sell my compound bow, any firearm related accessory?
Looks like you should sell you guns then. Your negativity and inability, to come up with your own reasons for owning a LEGAL, CONSTITUTIONALLY GUARANTEED firearm. Want an idea or something to use since you don't seem able to rationally figure it out. See my TUESDAY TIDBIT post. No one in my family (unless they have changed their minds since sunday) have or are screaming for MORE GUN CONTROL. AND most of them don't even own a gun.

[merl]

Looks like you should sell you guns then. You are unable to come up with your own reasons for owning a LEGAL, CONSTITUTIONALLY GUARANTEED firearm. Want an idea or something to use since you don't seem able to rationally figure it out. See my TUESDAY TIDBIT post. No one in my family (unless they have changed their minds since sunday) have or are screaming for MORE GUN CONTROL. AND most of them don't even own a gun.

please understand I'm not arguing for any gun control.
I'm asking for something I can put in a letter to our dear Governor and state rep. Something more than the "it is my property" line because the obvious dismissal is "You can still sell whatever you want, we are just going to verify the buyer."

[HBARleatherneck]

delete

[Aloha_Shooter]

I don't do a background check when selling someone a car despite the fact cars kill more people every year than guns. I don't need a "good reason" to sell something legal to someone else without government intervention. Governor Hickenlooper should give me a good reason government needs to be involved in private transactions -- or for that matter, is authorized under the Constitution to interfere with private trade. NONE of the recent tragedies have involved guns acquired surreptitiously through FTF transactions (although the Columbine killers got a shadow buyer, that's not the same thing).

[Tinelement]

Since this country is gonna turn into a effing prison, we can just start baking our 'goods' in cakes and having bake sales.

[TFOGGER]

I would argue the lack of effectiveness. Banning FTF sales would not have prevented the Aurora Theater shootings, that murderer bought his weapons through licensed dealers. Waiting periods wouldn't have helped either, as he bought them months in advance. Registration doesn't accomplish anything either. All of the bureaucracy they are going to try to create will have no effect on crimes of this nature, will waste taxpayer dollars, and are fundamentally unconstitutional impediments to rights that are guaranteed. Aside from the general do-nothing nature of this initiative, the state can expect lengthy and expensive litigation.

[PugnacAutMortem]

I'm glad you asked this question merl...I've been struggling to come up with another reason besides it's my property and I can choose to do with it what I want to. That reason is good enough for me, but it's not good enough for Hick and the wonderful state legislature. Jim, merl just looks to be playing devil's advocate to your examples. I think you might be wound up a bit this morning...are you sure you don't drink coffee? [LOL]

[Great-Kazoo]

I'm glad you asked this question merl...I've been struggling to come up with another reason besides it's my property and I can choose to do with it what I want to. That reason is good enough for me, but it's not good enough for Hick and the wonderful state legislature. Jim, merl just looks to be playing devil's advocate to your examples. I think you might be wound up a bit this morning...are you sure you don't drink coffee? [LOL]

F@#$%^&* NO i don't do any caffeine. I suggest like doing a SEARCH, he and everyone else go to the legislate/politics forum here. Some folk have come up with polite, letters they are sending to our lack of representatives.
AGAIN, I don't need any reason to justify what i do which is legal. UNTIL our rep's take a stand on ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION they have no room to talk or legislate.

[PugnacAutMortem]

F@#$%^&* NO i don't do any caffeine. I suggest like doing a SEARCH, he and everyone else go to the legislate/politics forum here. Some folk have come up with polite, letters they are sending to our lack of representatives.
AGAIN, I don't need any reason to justify what i do which is legal. UNTIL our rep's take a stand on ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION they have no room to talk or legislate.

Come on Jim I'm just [Poke]a little bit...you just gotta...oh what do the young people say these days...take a chill pill? Nope that's not right...

Cool it, daddio? Nope...too Grease...

Give me a minute...I'll think of it...

[merl]

I would argue the lack of effectiveness. Banning FTF sales would not have prevented the Aurora Theater shootings, that murderer bought his weapons through licensed dealers. Waiting periods wouldn't have helped either, as he bought them months in advance. Registration doesn't accomplish anything either. All of the bureaucracy they are going to try to create will have no effect on crimes of this nature, will waste taxpayer dollars, and are fundamentally unconstitutional impediments to rights that are guaranteed. Aside from the general do-nothing nature of this initiative, the state can expect lengthy and expensive litigation.

thanks for this. Adding a 'not needing more useless laws' argument is a good second point. Anyone got anything else?

Jim, most of the letters address an AWB, magazine restrictions, general gun control. They don't address this specifically and since Hickenlooper directly addressed FTF sales it is good to have a specific response.

[Ronin13]

F@#$%^&* NO i don't do any caffeine. I suggest like doing a SEARCH, he and everyone else go to the legislate/politics forum here. Some folk have come up with polite, letters they are sending to our lack of representatives.
AGAIN, I don't need any reason to justify what i do which is legal. UNTIL our rep's take a stand on ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION they have no room to talk or legislate.
AMEN! The best argument I've heard recently was "If all these politicians want to ban guns, how about they start with their protective details? Hmm?"

[alxone]

Forget history as it seems the dem's liberals and anti-gun crowd have and are are about to in a major way. You are either for or against guns. There is no middle of the road. All the waffling and hand wringing has to stop. Stand up and be counted OR SELL YOUR GUNS NOW.
it's been beaten to death here and other discussion forums. Do not Argue with an IDIOT. Nothing short of a pissing match will get their attention. They are like dog(SQUIRREL)S. Short attention span and no will power to think for them self.

Oh it's so terrible. Yes it is. Its horrendous. However CT has strict gun laws in place, which did nothing to stop this atrocity, NOTHING!

sometimes your right jim [Beer]

[BushMasterBoy]

If the firearms had been locked in a gun safe, then the Newtown, CT shooting would NOT have occurred. All my AR's stay locked in a gun safe, with a burglar alarm and video surveillance. Some psycho is not going to grab my AR and shoot up a school. As for FTF restrictive legislation, I doubt it will pass. If they want to pass legislation funding armed guards at schools, I think that will pass. We have too many armed forces overseas guarding us from "perceived" threats and not enough armed personnel guarding us from "actual" threats here in our own country. I like seeing armed guards when I walk into a bank or grocery store. Then again I grew up on US military bases as a child, and was used to seeing armed guards everywhere in the community. If you have an assault rifle, for Gods sake, lock them up in a safe.

[SAnd]

Don't forget that the Columbine shooters used guns that were bought by a straw purchase and at least one that was a face to face sale.

The individual that did the straw purchase did no jail time if I remember right. I'm not sure she even was convicted of any crime.

The background check didn't stop the straw purchase gun from being available to the shooters. The background check law and the straw purchase law didn't do any good.

[Clint45]

Somewhat related to a ban on FTF sales . . . in NY, if a pistol permit holder dies, and his wife/sons do not have a pistol permit themselves, it is a FELONY for them to keep the permit holder's handgun in their own home, even if it is unloaded and locked in a safe. A few years back the law was changed. Before, it was legal to have an unlicensed handgun in your own home (as long as you never took it outside). Now, if a permit holder dies, the family needs to call the State Police within 30 days to collect any handguns. The police will hold them for a while as you beginn the 6 month long process of applying for a pistol permit. In the event you are actually issued a NY pistol permit, you then must register each handgun you wish to keep.

Also related . . . when NY implemented their AWB, simple possession of a 30 rd magazine also became a felony, whether or not you had ammo or a firearm that it fit. Burden of proof is on the defendant to prove his magazine was somehow grandfathered or otherwise lawful to own.

[kidicarus13]

If the firearms had been locked in a gun safe, then the Newtown, CT shooting would NOT have occurred. All my AR's stay locked in a gun safe, with a burglar alarm and video surveillance. Some psycho is not going to grab my AR and shoot up a school. As for FTF restrictive legislation, I doubt it will pass. If they want to pass legislation funding armed guards at schools, I think that will pass. We have too many armed forces overseas guarding us from "perceived" threats and not enough armed personnel guarding us from "actual" threats here in our own country. I like seeing armed guards when I walk into a bank or grocery store. Then again I grew up on US military bases as a child, and was used to seeing armed guards everywhere in the community. If you have an assault rifle, for Gods sake, lock them up in a safe.

It may seem like a good idea to you but I will not be forced to lock my guns in a safe. They will continue to lie around my house loaded with one in the chamber. If someone breaks into my locked house and uses my gun in a shooting spree it is not my fault no matter how you look at it.

[PugnacAutMortem]

It may seem like a good idea to you but I will not be forced to lock my guns in a safe. They will continue to lie around my house loaded with one in the chamber. If someone breaks into my locked house and uses my gun in a shooting spree it is not my fault no matter how you look at it.

+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

[Whistler]

If the firearms had been locked in a gun safe, then the Newtown, CT shooting would NOT have occurred. All my AR's stay locked in a gun safe, with a burglar alarm and video surveillance. Some psycho is not going to grab my AR and shoot up a school. As for FTF restrictive legislation, I doubt it will pass. If they want to pass legislation funding armed guards at schools, I think that will pass. We have too many armed forces overseas guarding us from "perceived" threats and not enough armed personnel guarding us from "actual" threats here in our own country. I like seeing armed guards when I walk into a bank or grocery store. Then again I grew up on US military bases as a child, and was used to seeing armed guards everywhere in the community. If you have an assault rifle, for Gods sake, lock them up in a safe.

With those guns...

I don't own an "assault rifle" but if my firearms are "locked up" in my house, that's not adequate? Are you calling for mandating additional secure storage? What is "safe" enough, a cheap steel box with a lock or do you have some minimum requirement in mind? Better yet we could keep them at an officially approved storage location and sign them out, with approval of intended use/duration of course.

[patrick0685]

Its gonna be just like it was in Las Vegas, gun registration for everyone. FTF sales had to be done at the PD with a background check.

we are trying real hard to get rid of this worthless program, its only on handguns, they dont do an NICS check its some stupid check on their system. Also no one is required to do it at the PD just suppose to register it with in 3 days.

[Fmedges]

If the firearms had been locked in a gun safe, then the Newtown, CT shooting would NOT have occurred. All my AR's stay locked in a gun safe, with a burglar alarm and video surveillance. Some psycho is not going to grab my AR and shoot up a school. As for FTF restrictive legislation, I doubt it will pass. If they want to pass legislation funding armed guards at schools, I think that will pass. We have too many armed forces overseas guarding us from "perceived" threats and not enough armed personnel guarding us from "actual" threats here in our own country. I like seeing armed guards when I walk into a bank or grocery store. Then again I grew up on US military bases as a child, and was used to seeing armed guards everywhere in the community. If you have an assault rifle, for Gods sake, lock them up in a safe.

IF they were locked in a safe who is to say who would of known the combination? This kind of thinking is just stupid.

[patrick0685]

also in Vegas its just Clark County that has the stupid rule and not even all of the city's in the county follow the rule

[BigDee]

Just playing devils advocate here but I would like to bring up something that has concerned me regarding FTF sales for some time.

Anyone who cruises private party sales ads has noticed that it is common to see the majority of private party sellers asking for more than the cost of the item purchased new through a local dealer. More often than not the private party price is higher than MSRP when the item was new.

Why would someone who can legally purchase a firearm pay more for something used than they would pay for the same item brand new at a local dealer? IMO it is because that person is not legally able purchase a firearm. I understand that there are the few exceptions to people who don't mind paying a few extra bucks to keep their purchase off of the books but I would be willing to bet that is the small minority of those who pay well above the new price for a used firearm.

[patrick0685]

Just playing devils advocate here but I would like to bring up something that has concerned me regarding FTF sales for some time.

Anyone who cruises private party sales ads has noticed that it is common to see the majority of private party sellers asking for more than the cost of the item purchased new through a local dealer. More often than not the private party price is higher than MSRP when the item was new.

Why would someone who can legally purchase a firearm pay more for something used than they would pay for the same item brand new at a local dealer? IMO it is because that person is not legally able purchase a firearm. I understand that there are the few exceptions to people who don't mind paying a few extra bucks to keep their purchase off of the books but I would be willing to bet that is the small minority of those who pay well above the new price for a used firearm.

those items dont seem to sell very fast around here, however i have noticed there are tons and tons of great deals on here

[Great-Kazoo]

Why would someone who can legally purchase a firearm pay more for something used than they would pay for the same item brand new

Because there are none on any shelf, anywhere. Add to that the resupply availability is unknown, at this time.

[Fmedges]

Just playing devils advocate here but I would like to bring up something that has concerned me regarding FTF sales for some time.

Anyone who cruises private party sales ads has noticed that it is common to see the majority of private party sellers asking for more than the cost of the item purchased new through a local dealer. More often than not the private party price is higher than MSRP when the item was new.

Why would someone who can legally purchase a firearm pay more for something used than they would pay for the same item brand new at a local dealer? IMO it is because that person is not legally able purchase a firearm. I understand that there are the few exceptions to people who don't mind paying a few extra bucks to keep their purchase off of the books but I would be willing to bet that is the small minority of those who pay well above the new price for a used firearm.

I know a guy who would do such a thing so that he would not have his name go through a background check.

[BigDee]

Why would someone who can legally purchase a firearm pay more for something used than they would pay for the same item brand new

Because there are none on any shelf, anywhere. Add to that the resupply availability is unknown, at this time.

2 months ago you could walk into gun store in town and buy a Glock for 500-525 dollars. The same used guns are 600 private party. Add to that you can purchase them online for 500 flat.

There was no shortage of 500 dollar Glocks 2 months ago yet people were able to sell theirs for 600 private party.

[Kraven251]

2 months ago you could walk into gun store in town and buy a Glock for 500-525 dollars. The same used guns are 600 private party. Add to that you can purchase them online for 500 flat.

There was no shortage of 500 dollar Glocks 2 months ago yet people were able to sell theirs for 600 private party.

Only thing I would say to that is were they still stock Glocks with no modifications etc.


As for FTF sales, there is very little that can defend it. The problem is responsible people doing a legal action doesn't need defending. The burden of proof is on the Legislative body that the FTF sales serve as a threat to anyone. Criminals will still conduct FTF sales, quite illegally as is the nature of a criminal.

Moral of the story:
If it isn't broke don't fix it.

[Ronin13]

Somewhat related to a ban on FTF sales . . . in NY, if a pistol permit holder dies, and his wife/sons do not have a pistol permit themselves, it is a FELONY for them to keep the permit holder's handgun in their own home, even if it is unloaded and locked in a safe. A few years back the law was changed. Before, it was legal to have an unlicensed handgun in your own home (as long as you never took it outside). Now, if a permit holder dies, the family needs to call the State Police within 30 days to collect any handguns. The police will hold them for a while as you beginn the 6 month long process of applying for a pistol permit. In the event you are actually issued a NY pistol permit, you then must register each handgun you wish to keep.

Also related . . . when NY implemented their AWB, simple possession of a 30 rd magazine also became a felony, whether or not you had ammo or a firearm that it fit. Burden of proof is on the defendant to prove his magazine was somehow grandfathered or otherwise lawful to own.
I can testify to this! When I was stationed in N-NY I was denied a NYS Pistol Permit due to my "temporary resident status" being .mil, so my Glock sat in our unit arms room. You can't even handle a pistol at a gun store without a permit... NY is the ultimate example of a police state in the works.

[HoneyBadger]

2 months ago you could walk into gun store in town and buy a Glock for 500-525 dollars. The same used guns are 600 private party. Add to that you can purchase them online for 500 flat.

There was no shortage of 500 dollar Glocks 2 months ago yet people were able to sell theirs for 600 private party.

Several $600 glocks that I've seen have upgraded components (night sights, trigger, etc.) or come with several mags. Glock mags used to be $40 a piece new, though now you can usually find them for about $25. Just a thought. I'm sure there are bad people who lie and buy a gun they aren't allowed to have via FTF... just like there are bad people who lie on their taxes.

[Clint45]

Why would someone who can legally purchase a firearm pay more for something used than they would pay for the same item brand new

Because there are none on any shelf, anywhere. Add to that the resupply availability is unknown, at this time.

I once paid over MSRP for a NIB NAA PUG . . . because NAA only does a manufacturing run of PUGs twice a year, there were none for sale locally, there was a long wait on backorders, and it was intended to be a birthday present so time was short..

I recently paid well over Blue Book value for a Ruger Speed Six. This is a long discontinued model in a very rare configuration with a factory custom trigger job in near mint condition. I knew it was probably a once in a lifetime opportunity to get a gun like that.

Now, someone paying $300 for a used Hi-Point pistol, or $700 for a used SKS, I might question if they were prohibited from owning a gun as well.