View Full Version : Semi Auto rifles = NFA firearms?
Singlestack
12-19-2012, 16:38
Just saw this posted by Larry Vickers on M4C: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=119065
Alert; possible executive order information
I wanted to share with everyone here what I heard today from a very well placed source inside the firearms industry- word is the Obama administration had the ATF a couple months ago do a study to see the feasibility of making all semi auto assault rifles NFA items- meaning they would be handled in the same way as an SBR in terms of procuring one; it is assumed there would be an amnesty period for current owners to register the assault rifles they already have then any transfer down the line would be the same procedure as a suppressor or SBR
The gut feeling is that if Obama doesn't get from congress an assault rifle ban he likes he will do what Bill Clinton did with the Street Sweeper and use his executive powers to make semi auto AR's, AK's, FAL's, G3's, Galils, etc. NFA weapons
I personally think this is a very likely scenario in case a ban gets deadlocked in the house or senate
Just an FYI - if I hear anything more on this topic or anything else related to a potential future ban I will drop in and give everyone a data dump
Be safe and try and keep your sanity
LAV
mahabali
12-19-2012, 16:39
Good thing I dont have a Sami auto.
Singlestack
12-19-2012, 16:41
Ugh - hate that when that happens. DAMN those fingers!
I was at the local fun shop today, (which shall remain nameless) and the guy behind the counter was talking about how we should give a little to the antis and how AR15 rifles should be NFA and treated like suppressors. Meanwhile he's been showing and selling ARs all day long....
We got into it a little bit then back down due to him working at a gun shop.
Really nice guy and big time hunter. Just a bit of a "fudd" in my opinion.
he could say to treat them as such but I doubt it could stick unless the law actually changes. Is there a section of the definition of title 2 weapons that could be re-interpreted to include semi-autos? I don't see one.
brokenscout
12-19-2012, 16:45
I heard this also, I who knows I don't own any guns anyways..
So what happens to those of us who refuse to register our "pre-ban" semi auto rifles? How will they know? I don't see this going well at all.
Great-Kazoo
12-19-2012, 16:56
So what happens to those of us who refuse to register our "pre-ban" semi auto rifles? How will they know? I don't see this going well at all.
4473's
brokenscout
12-19-2012, 16:56
?
4473's
BushMasterBoy
12-19-2012, 16:57
So what happens to those of us who refuse to register our "pre-ban" semi auto rifles? How will they know? I don't see this going well at all.
With the new NSA facility in Utah called Camp Williams, they will just tap all the phones, surveillance cameras and internet traffic. Then they will know.
brokenscout
12-19-2012, 16:57
You better be prepared to use it, or go to jail
So what happens to those of us who refuse to register our "pre-ban" semi auto rifles? How will they know? I don't see this going well at all.
Singlestack
12-19-2012, 16:59
Maybe one of those prosecutorial approaches; i.e. "unregistered" Pre-ban semi autos are illegal after a certain date, and they depend on nosy friends/family/neighbors etc who know of such to turn you in. Very nazi-like. If they were to do that, most would keep their guns under wraps, I think - which could really put a damper on gun ranges and training classes.
On the subject of training classes, what do you think will happen to high round count pistol or carbine classes? Just for rich guys only, or pretty much will disappear. Assuming ammo becomes scarce and quite expensive...
Zundfolge
12-19-2012, 17:03
This can't be done with a simple Executive Order. If it could, it would have been done by any number of anti-gun Presidents since FDR.
I don't see them amending the 1934 NFA to include semi-auto anywhere near as easily as they could get a plain old AWB through (which I still believe is slim at best).
4473's
Yeah, that's not proof that you actually purchased the firearm, it's just showing you did the BG check...
On the subject of training classes, what do you think will happen to high round count pistol or carbine classes? Just for rich guys only, or pretty much will disappear. Assuming ammo becomes scarce and quite expensive...
Depends how/why ammo would become scarce/expensive.
if expensive due to hoarding, well that will pass
if expensive due to taxes, maybe business would get non-tax deals and provide as part of cost?
if expensive due to no-mail order/difficult to obtain, see #2.
but I wouldnt expent that training classes are very high on the priority list of "good things about guns to be preserved" That list will be limited to the skeet shotguns and single shot bambi slayers.
newracer
12-19-2012, 17:44
4473's
Yeah, that's not proof that you actually purchased the firearm, it's just showing you did the BG check...
It also only states if the firearm is a long gun or pistol, nothing about action.
It will never happen for many reasons.
Bailey Guns
12-19-2012, 17:59
Yeah, that's not proof that you actually purchased the firearm, it's just showing you did the BG check...
Yes, it is proof the firearm was transferred to the person who filled out the form. Section D is to be filled out immediately prior to the transfer. Section D lists the gun information including make, model and serial number.
Bailey Guns
12-19-2012, 18:02
I don't see the "semi-autos as NFA weapons" scenario happening for a more mundane reason. The logistics required for registration of guns in circulation will be overwhelming. There are literally millions of them. I think the rule could probably be done through EO but it isn't likely.
BPTactical
12-19-2012, 18:03
If it goes to 4473 searches, I feel there will a mysterious rash of unusual fires at firearms dealers.....
The logistics of registering every semi as a NFA item are staggering...
(Ah, Bailey had faster fingers)
brokenscout
12-19-2012, 18:05
But some people would reg them, then they'd be taken soon after.. this speculating is making my head hurt..lol
I don't see the "semi-autos as NFA weapons" scenario happening for a more mundane reason. The logistics required for registration of guns in circulation will be overwhelming. There are literally millions of them. I think the rule could probably be done through EO but it isn't likely.
The logistics of registering every semi as a NFA item are staggering...
(Ah, Bailey had faster fingers)
I'm no math wiz, but millions of semi autos being registered at $200 a pop adds up to a shit ton of federal revenue.
Just saying.
I don't see the "semi-autos as NFA weapons" scenario happening for a more mundane reason. The logistics required for registration of guns in circulation will be overwhelming. There are literally millions of them. I think the rule could probably be done through EO but it isn't likely.
If O can't get an outright ban, and he may not, why would he care how long the process takes? Isn't one of the progressive tenants to overload the system until it collapses?
Mike
Goodburbon
12-19-2012, 18:21
I'm no math wiz, but millions of semi autos being registered at $200 a pop adds up to a shit ton of federal revenue.
Just saying.
I wouldn't even be able to afford to register my "assault style" weapons....Ok that's not true, but I think That paying over $3k in taxes for firearms I already own and have already paid taxes on is cause for some SERIOUS protest.
blacklabel
12-19-2012, 18:36
I can definitely see this happening. The revenue generation makes too much sense.
Bailey Guns
12-19-2012, 18:36
If O can't get an outright ban, and he may not, why would he care how long the process takes? Isn't one of the progressive tenants to overload the system until it collapses?
Mike
Possibly. But if the system collapses we really don't have to worry about registering our guns...hypothetical guns, of course. I don't own any assault rifles so I'm good.
spqrzilla
12-19-2012, 18:38
This is nonsense, the statutory language of the NFA does not cover semi-auto rifles.
Great-Kazoo
12-19-2012, 20:39
If it goes to 4473 searches, I feel there will a mysterious rash of unusual fires at firearms dealers.....
The logistics of registering every semi as a NFA item are staggering...
(Ah, Bailey had faster fingers)
Not to mention every new member asking in the NFA forum. "Anyone know how long a wait?" Over & over. that section would be the new GD, condolences mods.
Up side would be how cool a line of 7-10" ak's & ar's would look at the range. The fudds would be howling. and i'd be smiling.
HOWS THAT FOR SPORTING PURPOSES MUTHA FUKER!
Zundfolge
12-19-2012, 22:46
I wouldn't even be able to afford to register my "assault style" weapons....Ok that's not true, but I think That paying over $3k in taxes for firearms I already own and have already paid taxes on is cause for some SERIOUS protest.
Keep in mind that when the original NFA went into effect, there was an amnesty where folk could register their NFA items for free. Such an amnesty period would be required to get an expansion of the NFA to include Semi Auto passed (again, I believe a plain ole AWB would be easier to pass).
streetglideok
12-19-2012, 22:57
I know one thing, if it were to look like the NFA route was going to win, if I was the administrators on this site, there would be a system crash that took out tons of posts, involving who said they owned assault rifles, etc. Just saying, and I would start being really careful at what I said I owned, on here and in public. Anyone know the significance of the fish symbol to christians? Look it up sometime, involving the romans. May be a sign of things to come in the future with knowing who is ok.
dtbighit
12-19-2012, 22:59
Hmm let's see I'm no NFA expert but what about those folks with semi autos that live in cities where their CLEO won't sign off on class 3,or any NFA items,we would be expected to just turn in that particular firearm,hope this never becomes a reality
Great-Kazoo
12-19-2012, 23:18
I know one thing, if it were to look like the NFA route was going to win, if I was the administrators on this site, there would be a system crash that took out tons of posts, involving who said they owned assault rifles, etc. Just saying, and I would start being really careful at what I said I owned, on here and in public. Anyone know the significance of the fish symbol to christians? Look it up sometime, involving the romans. May be a sign of things to come in the future with knowing who is ok.
Once again 4473's
Great-Kazoo
12-19-2012, 23:18
Hmm let's see I'm no NFA expert but what about those folks with semi autos that live in cities where their CLEO won't sign off on class 3,or any NFA items,we would be expected to just turn in that particular firearm,hope this never becomes a reality
Do a TRUST, See other threads inquiring "How do i start a Trust" etc.
streetglideok
12-19-2012, 23:23
What if you sold those weapons via private sale, to some guy, not requiring a 4473?
Great-Kazoo
12-19-2012, 23:30
What if you sold those weapons via private sale, to some guy, not requiring a 4473?
Unfortunately someone, some where, is in line. Most do have a "stop" point. If you are the name on the 4473, oh well, you sold it prior to any new restrictions that were enacted. How you choose to deal with it i sup to you. I'm not an attorney, consult one if you have any concerns.
TriggerHappy
12-20-2012, 03:00
Good thing I have 2 SBR's cause that boating accident last summer was tragic.
So what happens to those of us who refuse to register our "pre-ban" semi auto rifles? How will they know? I don't see this going well at all.
After the amnesty period passes, they could potentially prosecute millions of otherwise law-abiding citizens, but that ain't gonna happen. It will happen on a case by case basis, to people who annoy them, or people who happen to be found in possession of one.
68Charger
12-20-2012, 07:20
Not one post about this just being fear-mongering because somebody has some they'd like to sell at a greatly inflated price?
"Hmmm, they aren't buying into the AWB threat to pay $4000 for this $1000 rifle, time to turn up the heat"
KevDen2005
12-20-2012, 07:32
This can't be done with a simple Executive Order. If it could, it would have been done by any number of anti-gun Presidents since FDR.
I don't see them amending the 1934 NFA to include semi-auto anywhere near as easily as they could get a plain old AWB through (which I still believe is slim at best).
I am glad you pointed that out. Executive orders can't be used in that fashion. Lets not get our tin foil hats on too tight. I have no doubt the administration is looking to do something like this but I also think a lot of this information is pushed by the some in the gun industry to help push sales and so they can bump prices higher. I also have a close friend in the firearms industry that told me rumors like this are not uncommon and sometimes start at the industry level to play on people's fears. Just like any other business would.
Possibly. But if the system collapses we really don't have to worry about registering our guns...
In a total collapse you are right. If the NFA requirements go through it would take years for them to process the forms thereby getting a defacto ban. We are in for a rough political fight.
Mike
The way the Streetsweeper and others were added to the NFA was by the stroke of a pen at the ATF . They decided to reclassify them as destructive devices , functionally they are no different than any other semi auto shotgun just cosmetics .
Food for thought , never say never .
Stevensje
12-20-2012, 10:45
Do you think 22lr semiauto will be included if it has a pistol grip?
Do you think 22lr semiauto will be included if it has a pistol grip?
I think you can dress up a 10-22 to look just like an AR. when dressed in that clothing it would fall under any ban that got passed.
spqrzilla
12-20-2012, 12:28
The way the Streetsweeper and others were added to the NFA was by the stroke of a pen at the ATF . They decided to reclassify them as destructive devices , functionally they are no different than any other semi auto shotgun just cosmetics .
Food for thought , never say never .
Not the same, because shotguns are destructive devices by the definition of the 1934 (because of bore diameter), there is a discretionary exemption for sporting purposes that the ATF can interpret. Not the same as a rifle that does not meet the statutory defintions in the NFA at all.
So whats to stop them from more reinterpretation on different items covered by the NFA already such as SBR's or the definition of machine gun . They could easily change to something dealing with cyclic rate and not single trigger pull and 24" barrel length . Not a hard leap to make and nothing out of the government surprises me anymore .
BlasterBob
12-20-2012, 15:36
Yes, it is proof the firearm was transferred to the person who filled out the form. Section D is to be filled out immediately prior to the transfer. Section D lists the gun information including make, model and serial number.
Regarding the completion of Form 4473 indicating the physical transfer has been made...
I really do not understand the statement where " PROOF of the firearm being transferred was actually physically transferred to the person executing the Form 4473. The dealer making the sale and making the background phone call or computer contact, already has the inbound record of the firearm entered in their book but has not yet entered the disposition until the background has been cleared and firearm delivered. What happens (and this would be extremely RARE) if the customer fills out the 4473 and the phone call is made. While waiting for the BG clearance, the POTENTIAL buyer notices some serious problem with the firearm and tells the dealer that he definitely does NOT want the firearm after all because of reason X.. Then the BG clearance comes and the dealer certainly would not enter any information in the disposition because the firearm deal was never completed. Of course, the potential buyer would certainly be expected to pay the $10 for the BG check and that would only be fair. So, although only the clearance was provided by CBI, they - the CBI would certainly not be aware of the deal had gone belly up and you are saying that they'd still believe the physical transfer was completed.................. Is that correct??[blaster]
Just wondering....
BlasterBob
12-20-2012, 15:44
A semi-auto Model 1919A4 will be rather questionable too. In Kalifornia, I believe their subjects can still have a M1919A4 but the ammo belts for that semi-auto (machine gun LOOKING rifle) cannot be capable of holding more than ten (10) rounds.
What are the laws regarding historical guns such as the 1919a4 in the context of using it as a historical item.
BlasterBob
12-20-2012, 16:34
What are the laws regarding historical guns such as the 1919a4 in the context of using it as a historical item.
I have no idea about the historical laws pertaining to these but I presume you are probably referring to military reenactment battles.
spqrzilla
12-20-2012, 16:37
So whats to stop them from more reinterpretation on different items covered by the NFA already such as SBR's or the definition of machine gun . They could easily change to something dealing with cyclic rate and not single trigger pull and 24" barrel length . Not a hard leap to make and nothing out of the government surprises me anymore .
Because they don't meet the statutory definitions at all. No interpretation discretion exists.
I have no idea about the historical laws pertaining to these but I presume you are probably referring to military reenactment battles.
I was think more of historical displays, not in a museum. Years ago I was a part of a group that put up ww2 encampments as history displays.
A semi-auto Model 1919A4 will be rather questionable too. In Kalifornia, I believe their subjects can still have a M1919A4 but the ammo belts for that semi-auto (machine gun LOOKING rifle) cannot be capable of holding more than ten (10) rounds.
Just because I can:
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/209535_508780839147560_1818600585_o.jpg
BlasterBob
12-21-2012, 12:14
Since Bailey Guns said,
http://www.ar-15.co/images/tf_ideal/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Bailey Guns http://www.ar-15.co/images/tf_ideal/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.ar-15.co/showthread.php?p=795009#post795009)
"Yes, it is proof the firearm was transferred to the person who filled out the form. Section D is to be filled out immediately prior to the transfer. Section D lists the gun information including make, model and serial number".
I hope he will still make a comment on my question about the completion of form 4473 being PROOF of the firearm transfer. Here what I posted,
Regarding the completion of Form 4473 indicating the physical transfer has been made...
I really do not understand the statement where " PROOF of the firearm being transferred was actually physically transferred to the person executing the Form 4473. The dealer making the sale and making the background phone call or computer contact, already has the inbound record of the firearm entered in their book but has not yet entered the disposition until the background has been cleared and firearm delivered. What happens (and this would be extremely RARE) if the customer fills out the 4473 and the phone call is made. While waiting for the BG clearance, the POTENTIAL buyer notices some serious problem with the firearm and tells the dealer that he definitely does NOT want the firearm after all because of reason X.. Then the BG clearance comes and the dealer certainly would not enter any information in the disposition because the firearm deal was never completed. Of course, the potential buyer would certainly be expected to pay the $10 for the BG check and that would only be fair. So, although only the clearance was provided by CBI, they - the CBI would certainly not be aware of the deal had gone belly up and you are saying that they'd still believe the physical transfer was completed.................. Is that correct??[blaster]
Just wondering....
BlasterBob
12-22-2012, 08:40
Just a bump for Bailey Guns to see this and my question.
BlasterBob
12-23-2012, 08:48
Just one more bump for Bailey Guns in an effort to get his views on my post above regarding his statement about the Form 4473 reporting thing.
Demodave
12-23-2012, 09:35
I was at the local fun shop today, (which shall remain nameless) and the guy behind the counter was talking about how we should give a little to the antis and how AR15 rifles should be NFA and treated like suppressors. Meanwhile he's been showing and selling ARs all day long....
We got into it a little bit then back down due to him working at a gun shop.
Really nice guy and big time hunter. Just a bit of a "fudd" in my opinion.
Everyone has the right to their particular (even if disturbing) opinion....
If it is the store that I'm thinking of, the opinion of giving anything to the anti's other than my boot up their collective asses, is Bull Shite.
This country was founded on the right to resist tyranny from government. Without the 2nd Amendment and "Military" style rifles, that resistance would be futile.
It's not about duck hunting, its not about target shooting, it's not about hunting in friggin Afrrica. It's about using arms to overthrow a tyrannical government. PERIOD.
Thats what the 2nd amendment is about.
Turn my weapons into class 3 firearms. FO
Time to head towards a bridge in Lexington or Concord.
Just one Mans opinion...
Dave
Everyone has the right to their particular (even if disturbing) opinion....
If it is the store that I'm thinking of, the opinion of giving anything to the anti's other than my boot up their collective asses, is Bull Shite.
This country was founded on the right to resist tyranny from government. Without the 2nd Amendment and "Military" style rifles, that resistance would be futile.
It's not about duck hunting, its not about target shooting, it's not about hunting in friggin Afrrica. It's about using arms to overthrow a tyrannical government. PERIOD.
Thats what the 2nd amendment is about.
Turn my weapons into class 3 firearms. FO
Time to head towards a bridge in Lexington or Concord.
Just one Mans opinion...
Dave
+1
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