View Full Version : Forming a Trust for NFA items
I have read a lot about the LLC route, but I was curious if anyone here in CO has done the trust route to get NFA items.
I am in adams county and it doesn't look like I will have much luck getting the sherrifs sign off...even though I have known him my entire life.[Bang]
My first item is a .22 suppressor. thats what I want. i know about the forms to be submitted to the ATF and I know the trust will keep me from having to get the sign off and fingerprints etc.
what I would like to know:
What are the different types of trusts. I know you can set up one pretty easy, but will this cause me problems later on it life. I heard it would set me up for problems later on. What is meant by this?
I read there are no renewals necessary unlike a LLC which requires one annually as well as tax reports (not too big a deal if it will only be for NFA items as there is no loss or profit)
what type of costs have you incurred while creating and maintaining the trust?
Setting up a trust yourself with quicken willmaker may create problems for you and/or your heirs.
The only cost of a trust is the cost of having an attorney create it.
Does anyone have a good lawyer that can do this, and what am I looking at for a cost?
If not, can't people who have done this before on quicken willmaker walk me through the do's and dont's...
I am sure quicken has a pretty good user program telling you about it as well? Anyone know?
If any one needs helps setting up a trust, I can send you a copy of what mine looks like.
I just hooked sniper7 up with it...
My first suppressor I had the sheriff sign for, and only I can have that suppressor.
My next 2 suppressors I put on the trust, and now me or my father can have them.
Now I have to get around to transferring my first suppressor from me personally to my trust. But I'm going to have to pay another $200 for the stamp.
I will never put another NFA toy to me personally, I suggest the trust, or cooperate route.
Open Bolts
03-15-2009, 12:08
Joined to ask this but plan to stick around:
Can anyone recommend a lawyer for NFA trust in Colorado? I found a Colorado lawyer online (Douglas Turner) who apparently contracts the trust work to David Goldman of Jax, FL. That's fine, but the fee quoted to me was $600. I know we're talking lawyer's fees, but it seems excessive. Maybe that's the best price going but if anyone knows of a better rate I'd appreciate it.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-18-2009, 21:16
What is the issue with Quicken Trust? $600 bucks is expensive, or it is a cheap way to stay out of the pokey. For the $600, does he help or give guidance on how to fill out the forms for the transfer?
SigsRule
03-18-2009, 22:03
I used Quicken WillMaker and created a Revocable Living Trust with no problems. The program came with Quicken in a package deal. I've bought two silencers using it and it was a piece of cake. The help provided was more than enough to set it up with no problems.
Open Bolts
03-21-2009, 14:48
What is the issue with Quicken Trust? $600 bucks is expensive, or it is a cheap way to stay out of the pokey. For the $600, does he help or give guidance on how to fill out the forms for the transfer?
The lawyer that gave me the $600 was very experienced with NFA trusts and the NFA process and did offer guidance on the process. That said, the forms are the easy part.
Regarding using software there are two modes of thought- it's cheap and simple OR it's there's too much at stake and one should pay a lawyer.
Foxtrot, I'm almost positive there's no limit on number or type of NFA weapons a trust can aquire.
Since I posted I'm leaning back toward corporation. It's just so damn cheap in CO from what I can tell - $277 initial fee and $.99/year annual filing.
(from here:)
http://www.ailcorp.com/state_incorporation_information.aspx?stateId=6&corpTypeId=100
Problem I saw with a corp was if I move to another state where corp's are not so cheap to keep and maintain. It could start costing a bit annually (I recall some states being pretty expensive to have a corp). Plus you have to create/register the corp with the new state when you move. With a trust all you would have to do is update the address, and let the ATF know of an address change. Just make sure it is a revocable trust so you can update it.
and as far as how many items a trust/corp can hold. It is a legal entity just as a human with a SSN is a legal entity. A Trust/corp can have as many items that a single human with a SSN can have.
Open Bolts
03-26-2009, 16:08
Problem I saw with a corp was if I move to another state where corp's are not so cheap to keep and maintain. It could start costing a bit annually (I recall some states being pretty expensive to have a corp). Plus you have to create/register the corp with the new state when you move.
Thanks for reply.
I wondered about that - impact moving to a new state. Are you certain you have to create the corp in the new state?
If so I'd definitely go trust. I still think they're better, but at $600 they're tough to swallow....
quicken willmaker is only $37.99... Thats how much my trust cost.
mtechgunman
04-13-2009, 11:31
quicken willmaker is only $37.99... Thats how much my trust cost.
I think I paid more for mine, regardless it worked for me.
received my stamp late march.
I'm getting my first suppressor and want to go the trust route.
Are there any special provisions that need to be done in Quicken Willmaker to make the trust?
I'd also like to explore the lawyer created trust route - I understand it will cost more than the $40 for the software, but if it's not too expensive, it could be good for peace of mind. Know any attorneys who have done this previously?
Thanks.
ARZ
You are paying for the attorney to make sure that everything in your trust is okay. You could use Quicken Willmaker and an attorney at the same time. The issue with Willmaker, is that it is a general program, and may not be completely up to date, and also may not be state specific. They update the trusts every once in a while, but it would be a good idea to look into it yourself (or hire an attorney) so you can get all the state specific stuff correct. In my opinion, the corporation route would be the last way I'd go. Why should I have to pay to set up a corp, and fake yearly meetings just to own some Title II stuff? I'd argue with a sheriff about getting a signature before I'd go the corporation route.
jackmode9316
09-30-2009, 17:02
OR it's there's too much at stake and one should pay a lawyer.
So whats really at stake? What "Can" happen if your trust is set up incorrectly?
So whats really at stake? What "Can" happen if your trust is set up incorrectly?
I'm not a lawyer.
For all intense and purposes the ATF regards a trust or a corporation as a person. So if a trust is setup incorrectly and this issue somehow comes to light(say for instance you form a trust that owns NFA items and then you die, and in the process of probate or your estate being settled this trust issue is discovered) you then have some NFA items being posessed by an entity that isn't legitimate, therefore you have NFA items being posessed illegally. So if the items are sitting in your safe in your house, your dead and your wife is living there, you can see how this could be a problem.
How likely is this? Depends on your situation I guess, but it certainly isn't an unreasonable concern. I doubt your wife would mind spending the $1K or so it would cost to hire a lawyer to form a trust at this moment.
Just because the ATF approves your NFA paperwork DOESN'T MEAN YOUR TRUST IS BULLETPROOF. It just means it's good enough for government work.
By the same token just because a lawyer wrote your trust doesn't mean it's bulletproof either, but there's a much higher likelihood than if Quicken wrote it.
I'm not a lawyer.
For all intense and purposes the ATF regards a trust or a corporation as a person. So if a trust is setup incorrectly and this issue somehow comes to light(say for instance you form a trust that owns NFA items and then you die, and in the process of probate or your estate being settled this trust issue is discovered) you then have some NFA items being posessed by an entity that isn't legitimate, therefore you have NFA items being posessed illegally. So if the items are sitting in your safe in your house, your dead and your wife is living there, you can see how this could be a problem.
How likely is this? Depends on your situation I guess, but it certainly isn't an unreasonable concern. I doubt your wife would mind spending the $1K or so it would cost to hire a lawyer to form a trust at this moment.
Just because the ATF approves your NFA paperwork DOESN'T MEAN YOUR TRUST IS BULLETPROOF. It just means it's good enough for government work.
By the same token just because a lawyer wrote your trust doesn't mean it's bulletproof either, but there's a much higher likelihood than if Quicken wrote it.
also look at how many guys out there create trusts using willmaker. there are a lot of people who have done this.
Talk with the dealers that you are buying the NFA from and have them look over your trust. They probably have a trust themself.[Beer]
$600 for a lawyer is not much in the long run, but who is to say that he isn't going to screw up just as easy as you could screw up using willmaker. they more than likely have lots of lawyers who look over their materials instead of just 1 lawyer looking over your trust. the only gap with willmaker is you putting all the information in correctly.
the ATF still has to read the trust to approve the transfer.
It is purely a cost vs benefit issue.
If you only plan on cutting the barrel down on your $200 870, if you trust screws up, you are out $400. No reason to spend $600 to protect $400.
If you know it is addicting and are likely to build a collection, or even purchase one machine gun, then $600 is well worth your trouble. It is the same as worrying about spending an extra $100 on a pistol that you are going to put $7,000 worth of ammo through.
jackmode9316
10-01-2009, 09:19
Understood, thanks for the clarification.
jj-enterprises
02-16-2010, 17:13
Jeremy Cave at Cave Law does the NFA Trusts for folks. You need to make sure you have the correct language in the trust for NFA products.
Any clue what he charges for that?
All you guys that have gone the cheap route and used a trust from an off the shelf program (Quicken, Legal Zoom, etc...) had better check this link out and hope ATF doesn't invalidate your trust. If they do, you'll be in possession of an unregistered NFA item and may face prosecution. NFA trust must be written in a very specific way or they're not valid. Just because ATF issues you a stamp, and then invalidates your trust doesn't protect you from prosecution. It's kind of like a stamp was issued to someone, and now that person simply never existed, except you have the NFA item in your possession.
Think I'm full of $hit, it's alright, don't click on the link and enjoy your tour of FCI (Federal Correctional Institute).
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2010/02/atf-reviewing-trusts-for-legal.html
M2MG
DocMedic
03-10-2010, 19:48
If your trust was rejected by ATF we can help by reviewing and or amending the trust with our network of 75 attorneys in more than 40 states.
Intresting. Any thoughts?
hollohas
07-15-2010, 11:30
What is the issue with Quicken Trust? $600 bucks is expensive, or it is a cheap way to stay out of the pokey. For the $600, does he help or give guidance on how to fill out the forms for the transfer?
Here's a Law Office's page on the problems with Quicken for NFA Trusts. While this firm is in PA I think many of the problems certainly apply to other states.
http://blog.princelaw.com/2009/3/3/can-i-use-quicken-will-and-trust-maker-for-my-gun-nfa-trust
agent-smith
07-31-2010, 21:54
I'll be setting up a trust for NFA items here in a couple of months, and I'm not sure if I'll go the Quicken route or pay the $$$ for an attorney.
While I appreciate the links regarding the "problems with using Quicken", my first thought is that those posts were written by attorneys that make their living charging ~$600 to set-up NFA trusts.
In addition, I find it interesting that the lawyer mentions something to the effect of "laws constantly change". Well, by that rationale what is the point of paying $600 to hire an attorney if a simple law change can make the entire trust invalid? Does the $600 include constant "updates" to the trust, and notification when updates are necessary?
To me, it sounds a lot like asking a tire salesman if you need new tires...
DeusExMachina
08-09-2010, 22:21
I spoke to someone regarding this in Denver county and they said "forget about it". Any input on here? Would it just be a waste of time?
Regarding what? Setting up a trust? Denver can go fuck themselves. There isn't a damn thing that they can do about your trust. You don't go through Denver at all when you have a trust, it should all be Federal.
DeusExMachina
08-09-2010, 23:15
Regarding what? Setting up a trust? Denver can go fuck themselves. There isn't a damn thing that they can do about your trust. You don't go through Denver at all when you have a trust, it should all be Federal.
When I mentioned interest in building an SBR or buying a suppressor, they said "Denver county? Good luck. The police will never sign and the BATFE are denying trusts."
It was kind of vague, but I'm wondering if anyone has gone the trust route in Denver and been successful.
The police won't sign, that for sure, but I don't think that BATFE can deny trusts in a state that it is legal. I mean sure, the BATFE can do whatever it wants, but still.
It was kind of vague, but I'm wondering if anyone has gone the trust route in Denver and been successful.
I do not know anyone who has purchased NFA items as a resident of Denver using a trust. However, there is no reason it shouldn't work. Denver city/county gov't doesn't know the trust exists, state law allows NFA items. So an NFA purchase on a trust in Denver should be approved.
agent-smith
08-12-2010, 10:29
I spoke to someone regarding this in Denver county and they said "forget about it". Any input on here? Would it just be a waste of time?
Who exactly told you this information?
I wouldn't place any faith in it.
I know someone that lives in the city of Denver and has 2 each Form 1s and 2 each Form 4s. The Form 4s were through Denver Bullits. Give Greg a call, he's always been friendly to me.
DeusExMachina
08-12-2010, 13:18
Who exactly told you this information?
I wouldn't place any faith in it.
Someone I bought an AK from, off of Armslist. He lived in Douglas and just bought an SBR.
cognitive dissonance
10-31-2010, 16:09
Just spotted this thread. I can tell you from my years in estate planning that legally speaking, a revocable living trust is no different than you during your lifetime. It is not a separate entity, that's for sure. My guess would be that a Quicken document could potentially expose you to NFA violations, even if the ATF approved the purchase. Off the top of my head I suspect an NFA trust should be irrevocable, or you will have taken possession of items for which you did not personally pass a background check.
(Could the ATF be approving these knowing that they're flawed? Scary...)
I'm not an attorney, but I know a lot about estate/trust law and asset protection. I'd guess an NFA trust would have to be rather specialized to survive scrutiny. Sounds like some bad- or disinformation is floating around.
I have another idea for holding NFA items that hasn't even been mentioned yet. In fact, this would fit right in with a business I'm starting. I'll look into all this and report back...
(If anyone has an NFA trust or corporation they'd let me read, that would help. I'd meet you, buy the coffee, and return all documents before we parted ways. PM me.)
Many people use the Quicken program to make their trusts, and the ATF DOES approve them; but every attorney I've ever heard speak on the issue says that there is specific wording that Quicken won't have and you are better off to pay the $600 to have an attorney write it.
I think it depends on what you are putting in there. If your life long dream is to buy a $200 870 and make it an SBS for another $200, then it is not financially sound to spend $600 to make a $400 gun. However, like most other gun stuff, NFA is probably pretty addictive and your one SBS could quickly turn into SBS, SBR, several suppressors, and later some MGs. Something to keep in mind.
mrfish83
11-09-2010, 21:00
So this begs the question - Which attorney(s) have you guys used (in the Denver/Aurora area)? Who would you recommend?
enthusiast
11-09-2010, 22:14
When I get my first stamp I plan on using Jeremy Cave (http://www.cavelawyer.com/).
jj-enterprises
11-10-2010, 07:11
Cave Law does NFA Trusts. You do have to have the NFA language in the trust. Call him he is great
argonstrom
11-15-2010, 22:44
Cave Law does NFA Trusts. You do have to have the NFA language in the trust. Call him he is great
I left him a voicemail a while back, but never got a call back. :confused:
ThunderSquirrel
11-18-2010, 15:59
I tried giving him a call a few weeks back, never heard anything.
I also used the 'contact us' email option on the website and never heard back.
mrfish83
11-19-2010, 11:15
I got a hold of Cave Law (without difficulty), nice guy but his price was a bit high for me. I ended up going with Douglas Turner, local to Co as well (http://www.douglasturner.com/2008/09/22/colorado-nfa-firearms-trust/). I feel Mr. Turner puts an excellent trust together for a fair price (still expensive, but fair).
I thought about going the quicken diy route but after some research it seems like a bad idea.
DeusExMachina
11-21-2010, 23:26
People say that but never explain why. I know lots of people that went that route. Can you tell me why not?
Because the Quicken trust won't have any NFA specific wording in it. Also, the ATF will approve Quicken trusts, without them necessarily being correct. So if there was ever an issue that caused you to be an object of scrutiny, they could go over your trust, see it's not right, and you lose everything, even though they approved it.
I do have another comment though. I'm under the impression that a Revocable Living Trust, is changeable, so I wonder if one could initially use the Quicken route on your first piece or two, then later, pony up the money to have a lawyer redo the trust for you.
I do have another comment though. I'm under the impression that a Revocable Living Trust, is changeable, so I wonder if one could initially use the Quicken route on your first piece or two, then later, pony up the money to have a lawyer redo the trust for you.
You can surly do that but you still risk messing up your initial setup which would put you in illegal possession of an NFA restricted item - no bueno. If you plan on going to a lawyer anyway, why not do it from the start?
ETA - anybody have word on what the wait times are looking like right now?
DeusExMachina
11-22-2010, 00:19
Because the Quicken trust won't have any NFA specific wording in it. Also, the ATF will approve Quicken trusts, without them necessarily being correct. So if there was ever an issue that caused you to be an object of scrutiny, they could go over your trust, see it's not right, and you lose everything, even though they approved it.
I do have another comment though. I'm under the impression that a Revocable Living Trust, is changeable, so I wonder if one could initially use the Quicken route on your first piece or two, then later, pony up the money to have a lawyer redo the trust for you.
Why does it have to? It is an entity, it does not exist for the sole purpose of NFA transactions.
That's a good question, but when dealing with the ATF, one can never know.
Graves, I don't understand how editing your trust later would make it less likely to be legal. However, I don't know anything about trusts.
DeusExMachina
11-22-2010, 00:38
All I'm saying is the Quicken Willmaker is used to make legal documents that have (assumedly) been made to make thousands of legal trusts for other purposes.
NFA items can be transferred to people, businesses, and trusts.
If Quicken Willmaker is a valid trust-forming authority, then there should not be an issue with transferring NFA items to that trust. That is my logic.
I'm still up in the air, though. Last time I was at Machineguntours, the guy there (who I forget his name) said Alan (the owner) knew a gun enthusiast lawyer who will form trusts for $250. I keep forgetting to call when Alan is there and get the number. For that it might be worth the peace of mind.
I'm not saying you cant successfully create a solid trust with Quicken, I'm just saying its in your best interest you know exactly what you're doing - I don't so I'll fork over a little coin to somebody who does.
That's a good question, but when dealing with the ATF, one can never know.
Graves, I don't understand how editing your trust later would make it less likely to be legal. However, I don't know anything about trusts.
Well I imagine when one goes off of what he/she heard or seen on the interweb to form an NFA trust, the odds of f$&#ing it up would be greater than having it made up by a lawyer who specializes in nfa trusts. I could see how $600 to cya on a $400 item sounds crazy but if your trust isn't bulletproof, you face a hell of a lot more than losing the $400 you put into your SBS.
ETA - Some good info in this thread: http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/class-iii-nfa-sponsored-talon-arms/1442-copying-nfa-trust.html#post14136
I'm still up in the air, though. Last time I was at Machineguntours, the guy there (who I forget his name) said Alan (the owner) knew a gun enthusiast lawyer who will form trusts for $250. I keep forgetting to call when Alan is there and get the number. For that it might be worth the peace of mind.
You can PM Alan directly: http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/member.php?u=54
If you get anywhere with that quote please PM me.
Or just post it here for the masses! [Beer]
DeusExMachina
11-30-2010, 23:56
Alan replied to me today,
We have a lawyer that does does them for our customers for $750.
alan
Either I mis-heard or someone mis-spoke. :(
I've never heard of an attorney/lawyer doing one for less than $600.
ThunderSquirrel
12-01-2010, 08:35
From what I've been told, the trust must be set up correctly for the transfer of the weapons to the trustee. I.E. must contain some sort of wordage that states 'The trustee is legally allowed to own a firearm' or 'The state the trustee resides in allows the legal possession of said firearms' etc etc.
If you leave a son as a trustee, and 6 years from now he is a felon living in California, obviously he cannot take possession of the weapons. NFA Trusts need a little better cover your ass policy than a trust for a house , car, bank accout, etc.
With that being said, I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.
I was told this by an Estate Lawyer who helped my Grandfather make a will. And in his exact words "I Know nothing, and I mean nothing about NFA Trusts, take all that with a grain of salt"
Alan replied to me today,
Either I mis-heard or someone mis-spoke. :(
Dayum.
That's a little on the high end.
mrfish83
12-01-2010, 20:29
FYI - I heard quotes from $750 to $1200 from the attorneys I spoke to.
FYI - I heard quotes from $750 to $1200 from the attorneys I spoke to.
I looked around last year and I found a couple closer to $400 but of course I can't remember where that was.
Having a LLC allows you to have NFA items, correct? If so, my question is, my dad owns a company which is a LLC and I'm the only employee...can he use his LLC to obtain NFA items and also can I take possesion of them as an employee?
TriggerHappy
12-22-2010, 09:38
Most likely, but if your dads llc is ever in a legal battle...well we can all do the math on that one. I would advise against it. People have been known to be sue happy these days.
DeusExMachina
02-08-2011, 23:28
Bumping this.
I was reading this guide: http://arizonagunlist.com/How_to_buy_NFA_class3_weapons_with_a_revocable_liv ing_trust_without_a_CLEO_signoff.html
And I'm unclear as to what you send to the BATF. Anyone who has done it, chime in?
Earlier in the page he says you send the Certificate of Trust, then later says: "Update: I have heard that the BATFE no longer accepts certificates of trust with a Form 1 or Form 4. You must send in the declaration of trust instead." The Certificate of Trust is the document stating that the trust exists and who is on it. The declaration of trust shows your possessions and who they are to be left to, etc. Seems odd that the BATF needs to see the junk you're leaving to family and friends.
But does that mean you send just the Declaration, or both?
I did a transfer in March, 2010. The ATF required a copy of the Declaration Of Trust with the inventory statement with it.
Just my experience.
DeusExMachina
04-18-2011, 11:21
I did a transfer in March, 2010. The ATF required a copy of the Declaration Of Trust with the inventory statement with it.
Just my experience.
With the inventory? Are you referring to the "Assignment of Property" sheet, or Schedule A?
The Schedule A. They want to see the whole trust document not something that says you have a trust. The whole trust Declaration of Trust would include all the attachments, including the Schedule A.
DeusExMachina
04-18-2011, 12:29
The Schedule A. They want to see the whole trust document not something that says you have a trust. The whole trust Declaration of Trust would include all the attachments, including the Schedule A.
Right. Mine also has this after schedule A:
Assignment of Property
I, Deus Ex Machina, as grantor of the Deus Ex Machina Revocable Living Trust
dated ____________________, __________, hereby assign and transfer all of my rights,
title and interest in the following property:
1. The contents of the safe at <address>.
2. All furniture and household items kept in <address>.
to Deus Ex Machina, as trustee of the Deus Ex Machina Revocable Living Trust
dated ____________________, __________.
Executed at ____________________, _______________, on ____________________,
__________.
___________________________________________
Deus Ex Machina, Grantor and Trustee
Is that something I should include?
Sorry, I have no idea.
I was told the trust isn't real until it owns something. I stuck a couple appliances in my Schedule A to make sure it was legal. After that the only thing I have added are NFA items. If you're only doing this for NFA purposes I don't see that you would need it as long as something is listed in the Schedule A. I don't have an Assignment of Property like you have. My trust just says everything is listed my Schedule A.
I would be consistent though. If you include it once I would include always unless you document it going away.
I'm not a lawyer and I am willing to gamble that I might have picked up some misinformation.
DeusExMachina
04-18-2011, 17:25
From some samples I saw it was the Schedule A now that I look again.
I'll probably include absolutely everything just to be sure...I'd really only like to include the certification but since they need to see my declaration and beneficiaries and property anyway, why not?
I agree on the Certification but unfortunately they get to make the rules.
The part I hate the most is the wait. But that's what happens when you're dealing with the government.
Have Fun.
mrfish83
04-19-2011, 12:10
I just went throught this. The following was required:
1) Copy of the trust and any admendments (not just the certification)
2) Schedule of trust property - I listed the NFA item purchased for the given stamp/paperwork (altough it technically wasn't the trust's property yet)
I did NOT submit any of the following;
1) Citizenship statement
2) Fingerprints or photos
3) LE approval
Mine was approved without having property listed in the trust, other than the item for which the application was for. I've heard it's a 'chicken or the egg' problem, but the ATF doesn't seem to care these days. You could always list some other property on your schedule, such as $5.
DeusExMachina
04-19-2011, 12:13
I just went throught this. The following was required:
1) Copy of the trust and any admendments (not just the certification)
2) Schedule of trust property - I listed the NFA item purchased for the given stamp/paperwork (altough it technically wasn't the trust's property yet)
I did NOT submit any of the following;
1) Citizenship statement
2) Fingerprints or photos
3) LE approval
Mine was approved without having property listed in the trust, other than the item for which the application was for. I've heard it's a 'chicken or the egg' problem, but the ATF doesn't seem to care these days. You could always list some other property on your schedule, such as $5.
Did you include the certification too? I thought you had to do citizenship statement anyway, even with a trust?
I heard listing the item not yet purchased wasn't right. Though, technically you did purchase it, you just aren't in legal possession of it yet. Hmm.
mrfish83
04-19-2011, 14:11
Did you include the certification too? I thought you had to do citizenship statement anyway, even with a trust?
I heard listing the item not yet purchased wasn't right. Though, technically you did purchase it, you just aren't in legal possession of it yet. Hmm.
I did not include the citizenship statement/cert. My attorney advised me to not include anything that wasn't necessary. The form 4 was approved, YMMV...
DeusExMachina
04-19-2011, 15:32
I keep seeing conflicting info as to include the item you're buying in the trust or not.
mrfish83
04-19-2011, 15:40
I keep seeing conflicting info as to include the item you're buying in the trust or not.
I've hear of people adding the word "Pending" after the item on the schedule. Seems like a fair way to go about it to me, but if I did, I would want to list some other property as well.
Busta Prima
04-19-2011, 17:46
I used Quicken Willmaker following the success of a friend who did the same. He had zero problems.
I'm now in the process of deciding what I want. I thought I knew (Gemtech G5 for my new AR15) but I keep getting swayed back and forth by the youtube torture tests.
Anyway, the trust formation was a piece of cake. Just print it and get it notarized. You don't even have to file it anywhere. If there are any problems, the ATF will notify you and allow you to fix it (or so I heard).
Now if I can get back on track with which one to get . . .
DeusExMachina
04-19-2011, 18:10
FWIW, MGT is getting G5s "very soon".
I used Quicken Willmaker following the success of a friend who did the same. He had zero problems.
I'm now in the process of deciding what I want. I thought I knew (Gemtech G5 for my new AR15) but I keep getting swayed back and forth by the youtube torture tests.
Anyway, the trust formation was a piece of cake. Just print it and get it notarized. You don't even have to file it anywhere. If there are any problems, the ATF will notify you and allow you to fix it (or so I heard).
Now if I can get back on track with which one to get . . .
One point based on my experience with Quicken Willmaker...
Quicken will only save it in the Quicken format. If you want to print another copy or change something you have to use the Willmaker program. I made a copy using MS WordPad so I can change or print it anytime I want without using the Quicken program. I did a scan of the page with the signatures on it. I used WordPad because it's simple enough I can figure out how to use it.
I have several NFA items approved using my Quicken Willmaker Trust. The most recent was approved in October of last year.
DeusExMachina
04-19-2011, 20:55
Cave Law wanted $750 for a trust.
I bought Willmaker 2011 which did not include the ability to make a trust. Instead it came with Nolo online trustmaker. Seems to put out the same thing but is updated for two years to the latest laws.
just some words of warning when using quicken. ive seen a lot of stories out there about people getting burned for not doting your i's and crossing your t's. im sure that if you pay close attention you will be fine, but don't take it too lightly. the lawyers charge outrageous amounts, but there is a reason why besides just plain lunacy. if you don't pay attention to detail it can burn you. i went the llc route simply because the horror stories scared me off and i don't trust myself haha.
again, i am sure if you pay close attention there won't be any problems. just don't be lazy with it.
oh hey, weird question related to this thread. i had a buddy ask me about switching between a trust and an llc. so lets say he buys something on a trust, then forms an llc for other reasons or whatever, then wants to transfer the nfa items from the trust to the llc. is this possible? and is it possible to go in the other direction? for example if you put them on an llc then form a trust for your kids/family and want to transfer the stuff over. or, do you have to go through actual transfer forms from the atf?
DeusExMachina
04-26-2011, 12:14
just some words of warning when using quicken. ive seen a lot of stories out there about people getting burned for not doting your i's and crossing your t's. im sure that if you pay close attention you will be fine, but don't take it too lightly. the lawyers charge outrageous amounts, but there is a reason why besides just plain lunacy. if you don't pay attention to detail it can burn you. i went the llc route simply because the horror stories scared me off and i don't trust myself haha.
again, i am sure if you pay close attention there won't be any problems. just don't be lazy with it.
I haven't read any horror stories besides the one regurgitated by all the lawyers, so it makes it seem like they're scaring people into paying for the service. Which makes sense, because they're lawyers.
The one thing I've seen discrepancy on is if the item should be in the trust when you submit the paperwork to transfer it. To me, it doesn't make sense being there until you get the stamp, but a lot of people say to put it in there.
To me, I made my trust as useful looking as possible (like I didn't just throw it together for NFA stuff) and I will be sure to amend it once I get the stamp for my suppressor, so when I buy something else they will see that the suppressor that was transferred to the trust is actually part of the trust.
DeusExMachina
04-26-2011, 12:15
oh hey, weird question related to this thread. i had a buddy ask me about switching between a trust and an llc. so lets say he buys something on a trust, then forms an llc for other reasons or whatever, then wants to transfer the nfa items from the trust to the llc. is this possible? and is it possible to go in the other direction? for example if you put them on an llc then form a trust for your kids/family and want to transfer the stuff over. or, do you have to go through actual transfer forms from the atf?
Yes, it is possible, but it is still a transfer. $200 each time it is transferred. So if you might possibly do a trust in the future, it would be best to transfer to the trust initially. Trusts can always be amended.
Wbronchick
01-02-2013, 22:16
I am an attorney and I do NFA trusts for the people who want to keep the family transfers private and out of the courts. Be happy to share forms.
enthusiast
01-02-2013, 23:01
I am an attorney and I do NFA trusts for the people who want to keep the family transfers private and out of the courts. Be happy to share forms.
I would not mind seeing them. You can PM me info if you would like.
stoner01
01-22-2013, 10:09
I am an attorney and I do NFA trusts for the people who want to keep the family transfers private and out of the courts. Be happy to share forms.
I am considering starting one while home on R&R in April. Would you mind helping me out as well?
I am an attorney and I do NFA trusts for the people who want to keep the family transfers private and out of the courts. Be happy to share forms.
Please help! I about to submit my form 4 with a trust that my good friend (an attorney) created for me. Help..please
Please help! I about to submit my form 4 with a trust that my good friend (an attorney) created for me. Help..please
This may help
http://forums.officer.com/t107341/
OR
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/form1.html
or ATFs we bage
Drilldov2.0
02-01-2013, 04:02
I am an attorney and I do NFA trusts for the people who want to keep the family transfers private and out of the courts. Be happy to share forms.
Looking into setting one up. I would appreciate the information as well.
Thanks
Sharpienads
02-02-2013, 14:52
I am an attorney and I do NFA trusts for the people who want to keep the family transfers private and out of the courts. Be happy to share forms.
I'd like this info as well, please. Thanks!
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