Is Manning worth it?

[tmleadr03]

Didn't Tebow, who the Broncos paid SIGNIFICANTLY less get the team just as far?

[Monky]

Didn't Tebow, who the Broncos paid SIGNIFICANTLY less get the team just as far?

What you don't like Elway's attempt to buy a super bowl? Defense got smoked. W/o the luck in special teams... it never would have been in ot.

The o line is shit. They can't protect the qb, can't hold for the run.

- sent by the free-range electronic weasel attached to my hip.

[Ghosty]

Yes, Manning IS worth it. 13 & 3 record and his QB ranking and stats are ridiculously awesome, in the entire NFL this year alone.

The Ravens game was a combo of Ravens getting ALL their star injured players back, pressuring our O-Line, obviously figuring out exactly how to defend our pass attack, our secondary (even Champ twice) getting burned, at least TWO BUNK BULLSHIT ref calls, while Ravens got NO bad calls, some bad Broncos play calling. Example, we got a very capable hall of fame QB and run three straight "run up the middle" plays in OT then punt and lose the game? Fucking ghey.

*Broncos hometeam fan since 1977, not fairweather*

[osok-308]

Without a doubt. With a solid qb in place, we can focus our attention in the draft on other positions that we need to fulfill. Ronnie Hillman looks promising, and we may not have picked him without the whole manning situation being in place. Lets look in the long run in a few years.

[tmleadr03]

But the team made it just as far last year didnt it?

[Dave]

I'd be concerned about how there was a small bit of time left on the clock at both halftime and end of regulation where an attempt or two could have been made for some points but Broncos knelt on it. Champ got smoked on a couple of big plays and was getting beat on other plays that went other directions. Manning is a great regular season QB, but in a lot of years has had bad or sub par showings on the playoffs. Refs helped the Ravens a little, but if Holliday didn't have a record breaking night, the refs wouldn't have mattered. It's hard to win if special teams score 40% of your points and you let them score on every turnover.

[Kraven251]

Yes, Manning IS worth it. 13 & 3 record and his QB ranking and stats are ridiculously awesome, in the entire NFL this year alone.

The Ravens game was a combo of Ravens getting ALL their star injured players back, pressuring our O-Line, obviously figuring out exactly how to defend our pass attack, our secondary (even Champ twice) getting burned, at least TWO BUNK BULLSHIT ref calls, while Ravens got NO bad calls, some bad Broncos play calling. Example, we got a very capable hall of fame QB and run three straight "run up the middle" plays in OT then punt and lose the game? Fucking ghey.

*Broncos hometeam fan since 1977, not fairweather*

take away the 14 points from blown lane assignments on special teams, and they wouldn't have even been in the game... The Ravens are a tough team, they are really good at specializing their defense to beat one team. Usually that team is the Steelers, but they knew what they were up against and adapted very well to it. They also exploited some arrogance in the Bronco D. The Broncos were looking past this game, and it burned them.

[Aloha_Shooter]

Manning is a GREAT QB but personally, I don't think ANYONE is worth the price the Broncos paid to get him. They could have afforded a lot more reinforcement in other areas (including a backup QB who made up for Tebow's deficiencies) with the money they spent on Manning. On the other hand, Elway has forgotten more than I'll ever know about pro football so who am I to criticize?

[waxthis]

I hope the Ravens stomp the Pats...Cant stand Brady.

[Jefe's AR]

yes

[blacklabel]

I appreciate what Tebow did but he had no upside and it would have been a fight to get into the playoffs with him this year.

[wreave]

But the team made it just as far last year didnt it?

Frankly, given how bad the AFC West was again this year, we may well have made the wild card round again with Tebow. However, I seriously doubt last year's team could have beaten anyone else in the playoffs except the Colts.

The "got just as far as last year" comparison is worse than most of the anti-"assault weapon" stuff I hear from the left. Last year we finished 8-8 and backed in by losing 3-7 vs KC in Denver, with help. Had the Raiders-Chargers game gone the other way, we would have sat out the playoffs.

I loved our wins last year, I enjoyed Tebow, and am sick about how the Jets treated him this year. I'm worried about his future in the NFL, and I think he deserves one. However, the difference between last year and this year is night and day. If not for a ridiculously bad defensive play, we win in regulation and aren't even having this conversation. If not for Champ Bailey giving ten-yard cushions on 3rd-and-5 plays, we win in regulation and aren't even having this conversation. If not for some really questionable refereeing, we win in regulation and aren't even having this conversation.

If you don't know the difference between 13-3/first seed and 8-8/fourth seed... if you can't see the difference between last year's team and this year's... there's no hope for you as a football fan. I hear hockey got through its strike and is playing again.

[MarkCO]

Manning is not worth it, but then not a single player on any NFL roster is worth the money they make...just another symptom of our sick society that worships athletes and other "entertainment" stars while heading off into the weeds. Sure, I like football, and I am a big fan, but it is just a game with a false economy driven by many factors to which I am personally opposed.

Now, if you are looking purely at a comparison between Tebow and Manning, yes, Manning was worth more. Did he play great Saturday? No. However, Manning made one of only several plays that "lost" the game in regulation. There were three really bad calls by the refs which allowed a Ravens scoring drive to continue or start. Any of those three, taken back, likely would have resulted in a Broncos win. One was a pass completion reviewed that clearly was the wrong call. There were three Ravens touchdowns in which the Broncos DB got scorched, two were Bailey. Was it the combo of age and cold for Champ...maybe. There were some terrible play calls, was that Fox or the OC...don't know. But seriously, 30 seconds, 2 TOs, Manning and you don't even try to win in regulation. Manning had them in the game, Tebow was along for the ride.

I like Tebow, but he needs to become a passer or get out of the QB position. Comparing RGIII, Wilson and Kapernick to Tebow...no comparison. I like it that my kids like Tebow, but Manning is a good role model as well as several others.

[Troublco]

I remember Elway taking years to become what he was, and I think Tebow would have done similarly. At worst, they could have kept Tebow and had Manning mentor him. Manning doesn't have that much time left.

But for the short term, Manning got them to the playoffs...hope they get enough in the draft to fix their holes. Maybe they'll do better next year.

[palepainter]

I remember Elway taking years to become what he was, and I think Tebow would have done similarly. At worst, they could have kept Tebow and had Manning mentor him. Manning doesn't have that much time left.

This..... The Broncos, sure weren't the team of regular season play. It was a pretty sad performance other than Holliday.

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

Yes we played excellent as a team this year

[MarkCO]

Yes we played excellent as a team this year

Thanks for your play this year! can you at least tell us your jersey number so we can root for you next year too?

[griebel303]

Sad to see them choke like that. They definitely were not our regular season Broncos on either side of the ball. I think Manning is a great addition to the Broncos and he demands more out of both sides of the ball. Players try to meet his standards and its get to have that drive...now is it $96 million worth...I don't know there

[Ghosty]

I agree that NO one in the NFL is worth that crazy amount of money, but definitely he's better option than Tebow, imo. Plus I don't fault Elway at all, I think they really wanted to pay whatever it took to bring a real ACE to Denver, mission accomplished, regardless of the Ravens game. It's the rest of the team that lost this game this time.

[Dave]

I remember Elway taking years to become what he was, and I think Tebow would have done similarly. At worst, they could have kept Tebow and had Manning mentor him. Manning doesn't have that much time left.



And you would have had 26 million of your cap space tied up in two QB's the next couple of years.

[lowspeed_highdrag]

With Tebow, we were 8-8 on a much easier schedule, with Manning we were 13-3 on a harder schedule. Tebow, who is a great man, is not a great QB. Simply looking at our total offense every game except for the last one proves that. To say we would have had the same result with Tebow shows a total lack of understanding.

[Pancho Villa]

Anyone who thinks that Manning isn't a significant upgrade from Tebow needs to suck-start a shotgun.

[mrstellar]

I like Manning and think he's great. But the QB of the future are QB's like Kaepernick and RG III. On 3rd and short or inches its nice to have a QB that can run the ball or dive over the center for the first down. Elway did it all of the time. Manning can't run the ball, dive over the line or risk any type of hard hit. This handicaps the Broncos offense.

[glock74]

I agree that NO one in the NFL is worth that crazy amount of money, but definitely he's better option than Tebow, imo. Plus I don't fault Elway at all, I think they really wanted to pay whatever it took to bring a real ACE to Denver, mission accomplished, regardless of the Ravens game. It's the rest of the team that lost this game this time.

Manning has to take a lot of the blame for losing too. He had 2 interceptions and a fumble that gave the Ravens 17 points.

[MarkCO]

Manning has to take a lot of the blame for losing too. He had 2 interceptions and a fumble that gave the Ravens 17 points.

The "fumble" should have been eliminated due to the Tuck rule...another blown call by the Ref.

[Pancho Villa]

I like Manning and think he's great. But the QB of the future are QB's like Kaepernick and RG III. On 3rd and short or inches its nice to have a QB that can run the ball or dive over the center for the first down. Elway did it all of the time. Manning can't run the ball, dive over the line or risk any type of hard hit. This handicaps the Broncos offense.

Every time a running QB comes into the league people start to say that.

Then a few years into his career he has some serious injury getting hit by people who have 100+lbs on him and he's never quite the same.

Repeat cycle. There's a reason Elway is a GOAT contender.

[Jefe's AR]

The first interception of Manning that was returned for a TD, there was pass interference by Baltimore on Decker. Should have come back and been a 1st down for Denver. More Ref suckage.

[Dave_L]

We, as a team, sucked. Bad play calling (IMO), Manning had 3 TO's, missed FB and our secondary got fried. You make that many mistakes in a playoff game and you don't deserve to win. I think this gave us a lot of perspective going forward. A HUGE lesson to all the young talent we have. You still have to play the game, no matter how good you look on paper. Then again, people said we'd be lucky to get 10 wins this year. We blew that one outta the water. I'm just happy we don't have any mystery surrounding our off season...for once. We know who we are, where we are and the EXACT needs we have. Lots to look forward to. I'd love to see us pick up a 240lb RB to run people over. Im tired of these undersized, "make you miss" types. Also, we can't overlook the glaring need at CB. Might be time to move Champ over to safety and give him 10-20 yards of buffer room to compensate for the loss of speed.

[Danimal]

Saturday I was let down by two guys that I never thought would let me down. Camp and Peyton. The both made poor decisions all day and in the end it cost us an easily win-able football game. Manning is a great QB, but he was trying to force the issue all day and make up for the defenses inability to stop a seemingly one sided offence. If they would have shut down the passing game what would the score have been? I dissagree about RGIII and Keapernick being the only viable QB style out there. There are ways to shut them down as well, and if all QB were like them it would be easy to build defenses around that. The problem is that you have QB's out there like Brady and Manning that can actually run an offence and exploit every little flaw in the defense so you have to find a balance when building a defense. Otherwise I would just put some fast ass defensive ends in there that could pursue the faster QB, but right now you need huge D-ends to collapse the pocket fast on these super accurate "old school" QB's. It is a give and take and Peyton is one of the best in the game. He will get us there next year.

[BPTactical]

Is any proffesional athlete worth the ludicrist amount they are paid?

No

I recognize the fact to play at an elite level of any sport it takes exceptional talent, but they aren't worth XX millions per year.

[lowspeed_highdrag]

This thread blows my mind. I understand not knowing all the intricacies of professional football, but to seriously say that because Manning wasn't hot (along with just about every other Bronco) in one game, Tebow is a far better QB is just simply retarded. I cant think of any other way to say it, that line of thinking is mentally deficient.

The 2013 season will see a Denver team that is now fully on the same page, with an entire off season to practice together, as well as a huge amount of money to spend on keeping great players and acquiring free agents, and also a #1 draft pick to use along the way.

Manning threw a pass to Decker, Decker's arm was pushed down in an obvious PI instance, the ball was tipped into a Raven's hand and a pick-six ensued. This was nobody's fault but the Ref for not throwing a flag. Take 7 points from the Ravens for that one. Prater misses an easy FG, give us 3 points. Champ is burned twice for TD's, take 14 from the Ravens. Moore is burned for one TD, take 7 from the Ravens. Manning's fumble is incorrectly ruled as a fumble, thus giving unfair advantage to the Ravens. Our first, AND second string RB's were injured and out, leaving us with a nearly non existent running game. To blame this all on Manning is so retarded I just simply dont get it.

THERE IS A REASON THAT NO PROFESSIONAL TEAM WANTS TEBOW. HE IS NOT A GOOD QUARTERBACK. Sure, he is a stand up guy who works hard and plays with intensity, but under center is not where he belongs in the NFL, at least not in a traditional sense, and especially not in a longterm role.

We've got a legend under center now that took us to 13-3 and the playoffs, in his first year with a new team and after having to relearn how to throw, and the idiot Denver fans are already chanting "Tebow, Tebow, Tebow!"

[Pancho Villa]

This thread blows my mind. I understand not knowing all the intricacies of professional football, but to seriously say that because Manning wasn't hot (along with just about every other Bronco) in one game, Tebow is a far better QB is just simply retarded. I cant think of any other way to say it, that line of thinking is mentally deficient.

The 2013 season will see a Denver team that is now fully on the same page, with an entire off season to practice together, as well as a huge amount of money to spend on keeping great players and acquiring free agents, and also a #1 draft pick to use along the way.

Manning threw a pass to Decker, Decker's arm was pushed down in an obvious PI instance, the ball was tipped into a Raven's hand and a pick-six ensued. This was nobody's fault but the Ref for not throwing a flag. Take 7 points from the Ravens for that one. Prater misses an easy FG, give us 3 points. Champ is burned twice for TD's, take 14 from the Ravens. Moore is burned for one TD, take 7 from the Ravens. Manning's fumble is incorrectly ruled as a fumble, thus giving unfair advantage to the Ravens. Our first, AND second string RB's were injured and out, leaving us with a nearly non existent running game. To blame this all on Manning is so retarded I just simply dont get it.

THERE IS A REASON THAT NO PROFESSIONAL TEAM WANTS TEBOW. HE IS NOT A GOOD QUARTERBACK. Sure, he is a stand up guy who works hard and plays with intensity, but under center is not where he belongs in the NFL, at least not in a traditional sense, and especially not in a longterm role.

We've got a legend under center now that took us to 13-3 and the playoffs, in his first year with a new team and after having to relearn how to throw, and the idiot Denver fans are already chanting "Tebow, Tebow, Tebow!"

This times a million.

[T-Jet]

Didn't Tebow, who the Broncos paid SIGNIFICANTLY less get the team just as far?

Up until Saturday the answer was "DEFINATELY" - then Sat night it was "Oh - I dunno?!"

Give me a break. As nice a guy Tebow seems to be and I like that about him he's not a top shelf QB in the NFL. Manning is. The Broncos went to the playoffs last season due to some absolutely miraculous last minute plays for how many games ? It was the most exciting 4th quarter football I've seen since The Cardiac Kid in Cleveland.
Manning took the Broncos to the playoffs without it being in doubt for each and every game for most of the second half of the season.

No comparison between the two QB's. Don't get me wrong - I'd love to have Tebow back as the kids got oodles of moxie and elevates the players around him to be better but he's not an accurate passer. Manning is a pro - been there done that. I'd take him any day over anyone else in the league.

Oh - and I hope the Cheatriots lose in a huge way to the Ravens. I'd love to see Brady get hit so hard on a blindside play that his head pops off...

[Gman]

Thanks for your play this year! can you at least tell us your jersey number so we can root for you next year too?
ROTFLMAO!! [ROFL1]

[jerrymrc]

Every time a running QB comes into the league people start to say that.

Then a few years into his career he has some serious injury getting hit by people who have 100+lbs on him and he's never quite the same.

Repeat cycle. There's a reason Elway is a GOAT contender.

^^^^ We have a winner there.

[dorsum]

That's exactly what I said to my wife when they lost.

[def90]

As long as Elway continues to want to be the center of the Bronco universe they will continue to falter.. [Pot]

[lowspeed_highdrag]

As long as Elway continues to want to be the center of the Bronco universe they will continue to falter.. [Pot]
Thats an odd stance, explain...

[def90]

Thats an odd stance, explain...

Having not been born and raised here (hey, at least I'm not from Cali) Denver has a really odd infatuation with Elway. I am sure Elway and Bowlen have a love child in a closet somewhere. Elway hasn't done a thing other than rent his name to any business that comes along with enough money. As a player he was a slightly above average QB.. I think most of his success was due to the team around him. No one here will ever criticize anything Elway will say or do. Jake Plummer still has the best record since Elway and the people here hated him just because he wasn't Elway. John Fox is a slightly above average head coach that is just good enough to keep his job and like Elway is primarily successful because of the coaches below him.

I see it playing out like this.. Elway will continue to hog the media spotlight, the team will always be about him, he will make bad decisions that absolutely no one will question, the Broncos will continue to be just good enough but yet not quite good enough to finish the season. Elway will be the Jerry Jones of the Broncos.

I grew up in Minnesota so I know what that is all about.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElwaJo00.htm

[Aloha_Shooter]

I agree that Denver is overly infatuated with Elway but I'd say he was more than slightly above average. No Montana or Baugh but he consistently kept a subpar team in the running. He also forgets his own history as a scrambling get-it-done-in-the-fourth-quarter QB. I thought it was funny how Denver criticized Tebow for always coming alive in the second half because that was all Elway ever did (except when he got shut down in the second half like in the Super Bowl against Washington).

I think you're right about Elway hogging the spotlight and continuing to make bad decisions but don't ever compare him to Jerry Jones. No one could be a horses arse like Jerry Jones.

[MarkCO]

THE leader on the Broncos right now is Manning then Elway. When you look at the Ravnes and the 49ers, even the Patriots and Falcons, the HEAD coaches are the leaders of those teams. Fox has no clue what is going on half the time. How many times have you seen him, bewildered look and hands in the air trying to figure out what happened. Leaders lead, but Fox is following. Manning makes everyone look good.

[trlcavscout]

Hell no he aint worth it.

[lowspeed_highdrag]

Having not been born and raised here (hey, at least I'm not from Cali) Denver has a really odd infatuation with Elway. I am sure Elway and Bowlen have a love child in a closet somewhere. Elway hasn't done a thing other than rent his name to any business that comes along with enough money. As a player he was a slightly above average QB.. I think most of his success was due to the team around him. No one here will ever criticize anything Elway will say or do. Jake Plummer still has the best record since Elway and the people here hated him just because he wasn't Elway. John Fox is a slightly above average head coach that is just good enough to keep his job and like Elway is primarily successful because of the coaches below him.

I see it playing out like this.. Elway will continue to hog the media spotlight, the team will always be about him, he will make bad decisions that absolutely no one will question, the Broncos will continue to be just good enough but yet not quite good enough to finish the season. Elway will be the Jerry Jones of the Broncos.

I grew up in Minnesota so I know what that is all about.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElwaJo00.htm
What are the bad decisions that you think mar Elways tenure as manager?

[mackbamf]

Last year we were essentially a joke. We were a team that stumbled and tripped our way into the playoffs as a terrible 8-8 team. This year Manning brought true legitimacy to us as a team, one that could compete with the elite teams in the league. Tebow could barely make it as a special teams player on the Jets. No comparison.

[Singlestack]

Yup, last year was a miracle - all of the last second wins...

PFM is a legitimate star and a future hall of famer...

[ronaldrwl]

Manning is not the problem but he does have limitations. He needs a lot of O-line protections. The problem was the team was playing scared. Not throwing the ball at the end of the half’s. Giving up big plays for touch downs. I admit I don't care as much after they traded Tebow. I still have my #15 jersey.

[rockhound]

last i looked having Manning on the team did not cost me a dime :)

Having a star Qb and true team leader is priceless, besides i dont have to watch Tebow suck anymore.

[Dingo]

Peyton Manning seems like an all around good guy, an excellent QB, and a good leader. That said, I'm in the crowd that says he's a bad, short-sighted investment. I think too many professional sports teams look only to the immediate season - often times firing integral people mid-season etc. Tebow was raw and unpolished, true. But he had years more of potential in him, and he's never been in the lead-seat long enough to really establish himself. He had the work ethic and the attitude to keep plugging away until he became a really brilliant QB. Manning may come with a stellar skillset, but he's going to err on the side of caution every time when faced with a possible exacerbating neck injury in a play. Not his fault - just human self-preservation instinct. It's the fault of management for trading away what I believe was a better long-term investment, for a year or two of star-power.

[Dingo]

Plus, I liked having God on the Broncos side. ;-)

[waxthis]

Unless Tebow will settle as a back up RB or TE, his time in the NFL is done.

[blacklabel]

Unless Tebow will settle as a back up RB or TE, his time in the NFL is done.

I appreciate Tebow's confidence but he needs to realize his place and how he can contribute at this level. I don't see it happening.

[Ronin13]

Peyton Manning seems like an all around good guy, an excellent QB, and a good leader. That said, I'm in the crowd that says he's a bad, short-sighted investment. I think too many professional sports teams look only to the immediate season - often times firing integral people mid-season etc. Tebow was raw and unpolished, true. But he had years more of potential in him, and he's never been in the lead-seat long enough to really establish himself. He had the work ethic and the attitude to keep plugging away until he became a really brilliant QB. Manning may come with a stellar skillset, but he's going to err on the side of caution every time when faced with a possible exacerbating neck injury in a play. Not his fault - just human self-preservation instinct. It's the fault of management for trading away what I believe was a better long-term investment, for a year or two of star-power.
So Manning retires after two more seasons, you think we're screwed? Hmm, funny, I would like to think Osweiler could learn some valuable things from Peyton... And I think Brock vs Timmy, I'd take Brock. Tebow isn't Jesus, he isn't some divine being, and he is certainly not an NFL caliber QB.

[blacklabel]

So Manning retires after two more seasons, you think we're screwed? Hmm, funny, I would like to think Osweiler could learn some valuable things from Peyton... And I think Brock vs Timmy, I'd take Brock. Tebow isn't Jesus, he isn't some divine being, and he is certainly not an NFL caliber QB.

The problem with thinking that the 8 foot tall quaterteback is going to learn from Manning and be better for it is what's happened to Painter and Sorgei, Mannings backups in Indy. One is third string somewhere and the other is out of the league. Sure, Osweiler can learn some from Manning but he better have the smarts and physical abilities to do something with his new found knowledge.

[def90]

What are the bad decisions that you think mar Elways tenure as manager?

Honestly? Manning. Don't get me wrong.. Manning is a star QB but the question remains, for how long? Minnesota has been playing this game for years, lets pick up a QB that only has a couple years at best left in him to try to get instant results. It always ends the same way, you get a fairly decent year or two but never quite make it, then you get the year with the final injury or they just can't play anymore and that ends it all. In the mean time there is no plan for succession and you start the process all over looking for the next star to save you.

The Broncos need to seriously look for the next franchise QB, not the guy that is going to get them to the playoffs right now. That thinking only goes so far. How long have the Patriots been at the top? Broncos under Manning will never achieve that. Broncos with a fresh new QB might. As far as I know I see no signs that this isn't even on the horizon at the moment.

Oh yeah, the OLine that made Tebow run all last year is still just as bad. Manning got beat up this year, probably not something he was used to.

[def90]

Another issue, Fox doesn't know how to coach his players or bend his plan to take advantage of a players abilities. Tebow (good or bad) is a prime example. Tebow is a running QB, Fox was tried his hardest to form Tebow into his idea of an offense rather than modify the offense to take advantage. This is proven by the increase in his performance at the end of games when things down and the plan was finally thrown out the door. A good coach would have been able to exploit the few things that Tebow could do and build the game plan around those things. Fox should have been running a high tempo no huddle offense with Tebow, under pressure is where he excelled.

[Ronin13]

I have a feeling if we won on Sat, and were having this conversation in March after the Broncos won the SB, def90 wouldn't be saying anything. Just sayin'.

[Monky]

I have a feeling if we won on Sat, and were having this conversation in March after the Broncos won the SB, def90 wouldn't be saying anything. Just sayin'.

IF by some miracle we had won on Saturday.. we would have simply moved this conversation to next monday.. No chance they would make it to the SB after how they played vs the Ravens.

[Jer]

Threads like this are hilarious. People who know jack squat about football talking about how much better they could do with a professional football team. What's next, you going to call for Plummer to get reinstated? Please.

Denver as a PHENOMENAL team and $18mil in cap space next season. They need to shore up a couple places and will have a strong draw to the team now with #18 onboard and proving that he's healthy. People couldn't jump out of this ship fast enough when Tebow was the starting QB so let's not glamorize what 'Tebow did for us' like it was anything. Did Tebow go 13-3? Did Tebow finish #1 in the AFC?

If you want to compare apples to apples Manning basically won the first round of the the playoffs too. Then they damn near won in the 2nd round and that is WAY more than I can say for what Tebow did in the 2nd round.

[brobar]

I was disappointed in the game... but not in the season. Lots of blame to go around that last game: Bailey, Moore, Fox, and yes... even Manning. No one person was ultimately responsible for that loss... that loss was a team effort. But I do believe that Manning makes the entire team better in the grand scheme of things and is totally worth the cost.