Reddit: "Police Officers: If ordered, would you confiscate firearms from law abiding citizens?"

[Ridge]

A nice refreshing read:

http://www.reddit.com/r/ProtectAndServe/comments/169uzt/american_police_officers_if_ordered_would_you/

[Rucker61]

My favorite comment:

I dunno. In NY, the Gov is talking about confiscation of guns.





Then he can go door to door and pick them up.

[JoeT]

Their kidding themselves... they'll (for the most part) fall right in line and follow orders.

Look at Post Katrina to see what they'll do.

While I think there will be "good guys" that uphold the constitution, history shows us that they'll follow master's orders

[def90]

When the threat of not collecting a paycheck and ever working again is introduced to the fray I have a feeling most of them would fall in line

[alxone]

i like the comment "I would end up taking a lot of reports about sinking boats...."[ROFL2]

[Byte Stryke]

When it gets bad, its going to get very bad.
I see people at the end of ropes and standing in front of a concrete wall for the last time crying "I was following orders!"

[SuperiorDG]

It will just take one cop getting shot and the rest of the pissed off force will be busting down doors with tanks.

[Dave]

i like the comment "I would end up taking a lot of reports about sinking boats...."[ROFL2]

I know it's odd, but I took all my firearms except these revolvers and a shotgun out fishing with me on CC resevoir and the damn boat just sank somehow.

[Kraven251]

When the threat of not collecting a paycheck and ever working again is introduced to the fray I have a feeling most of them would fall in line

I suspect many will end up not collecting a paycheck or needing to worry about ever working again either...which is why they may not want to fall in line.


It will just take one cop getting shot and the rest of the pissed off force will be busting down doors with tanks.

This is the subsequent outcome of this...and then it will get really bad.

[zteknik]

Job security,I dont think the'll have a choice in the matter...
Unless the unions get involved.

[Zundfolge]

It will just take one cop getting shot and the rest of the pissed off force will be busting down doors with tanks.

Agreed. When its an abstract concept, most cops will say "Sure, I wouldn't turn on the people, I'll uphold the constitution!" but as soon as one of their "brothers" dies at the hands of an otherwise law abiding citizen that will change most of them.

I know we have several here that are police officers and I'm sure there will be some that will quit in disgust (and a few of those will join the resistance) or at least look the other way when it comes to newly illegal gun ownership, but I do not believe that the majority of police officers in this country will look at their kids college fund, their mortgage, the boat in their driveway and their dreams of a comfortable retirement and choose not to enforce these unconstitutional laws just to keep the checks flowing.

[Byte Stryke]

It will just take one cop getting shot and the rest of the pissed off force will be busting down doors with tanks.

I have this bucket of magnesium and aluminum shavings sitting next to a bucket of REALLY Rusty bolts....

[ray1970]

Yep. Good employees do what they are told, no matter what your occupation. And good law enforcement officers enforce the laws even if they don't necessarily agree with them.

[Ronin13]

Are you all high!? EVERY SINGLE LEO I've talked to has stated that they're not going to enforce any gun confiscation efforts. The one I took my class with on Sat, who works for Commerce City PD, said everyone in his department, from Patrol officers, to supervisors, to the deputy chief (no word from the chief) all are not going to participate in any gun round-up. This talk of "a paycheck will keep them in line," is BS. If every single cop in a department refuses to go out and take guns away from people what are they going to do? Fire them all? Yeah right. Think of it this way- your boss just told you to increase the risk in your job by 500%, meaning you will most likely get shot at or killed... would you really do it? Some jurisdictions I know are too busy with just day to day calls, much less have the time to go door to door. [Shake] I can't believe the lack of common fricken sense going on in here...

[HBARleatherneck]

delete

[Byte Stryke]

yes we know you now want to be a cop, so you are taking that side. fine. if cops refuse to do their jobs, they will be fired. and in this economy, there will allways be someone to take their place.

what do you think? a department doesnt want to enforce the law, and everyone is just going to say" well ok, if they dont want" so, you talked to some like minded cops, that means nothing. so you talked to people like yourself who talk big, so what?

actions speak louder than words. We will see what happens.


pffft, Cops all of the country pick and choose laws.
Sometimes they even make them up.

[Ronin13]

yes we know you now want to be a cop, so you are taking that side. fine. if cops refuse to do their jobs, they will be fired. and in this economy, there will allways be someone to take their place.

what do you think? a department doesnt want to enforce the law, and everyone is just going to say" well ok, if they dont want" so, you talked to some like minded cops, that means nothing. so you talked to people like yourself who talk big, so what?

actions speak louder than words. We will see what happens.
Ok, so I'm just mistaken that I didn't see already 12 CLEOs saying they will refuse to enforce any unconstitutional laws? If 90% of all cops refuse to enforce ONE law (jay walking is against the law, I've never seen anyone in the last 10 years get popped for it) they won't be fired. Especially if their Chief/Sheriff refuses to do so... Like you said, we'll see what happens, but I don't see a confiscation getting through congress.

[HBARleatherneck]

delete

[HBARleatherneck]

delete

[Ghosty]

When the threat of not collecting a paycheck and ever working again is introduced to the fray I have a feeling most of them would fall in line
Yep, especially if wife and KIDS' well-being are involved. Think of the cost of living in NewYork.

But look what happened with Pitbulls in Denver? Officers actually went out, STOLE people's fucking dogs, then killed them off. It's SICKENING what our local governments are capable of! Don't think they won't try that with guns too. Shit, those clowns actually compared Pitbulls to "loaded guns"...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/SpectralCat/Emoticons/facepalm.gif

[Citizen_Soldier]

I think the large risk of losing your own life would outweigh a paycheck. Most LEOs make decent money, but it's by no means amazing. Many are hunters, competitive shooters, collectors, just like the rest of us. If federal legislation came out that required confiscation of "assault weapons" and the like, I feel there would be a large increase in officer deaths and refusals to comply with the new laws. Whether or not it would lead to people getting fired, I do not know. Here in Wyoming I can't think of a single cop I know who would enforce these BS laws.

[Ronin13]

I think the large risk of losing your own life would outweigh a paycheck. Most LEOs make decent money, but it's by no means amazing. Many are hunters, competitive shooters, collectors, just like the rest of us. If federal legislation came out that required confiscation of "assault weapons" and the like, I feel there would be a large increase in officer deaths and refusals to comply with the new laws. Whether or not it would lead to people getting fired, I do not know. Here in Wyoming I can't think of a single cop I know who would enforce these BS laws.
That's exactly what I'm saying. Every cop I know thinks going to people's houses and taking their guns will be met with stiff resistance. Now, I can't say for all, but even the idea of killing a cop is a scary and dangerous line of thinking, and I would never want to be in that position (like HBAR said, I want to be one!)... but if it comes down to unconstitutional seizure of your property in clear, direct violation of your 2A rights, I think there are more than a few out of the 100+ million gun owners in this country that would stand firm. So any attempt will be looked at by the boots on ground as an extreme risk, and an unnecessary one at that.

[asmo]

Door to door confiscation would never happen until they had a buy-back, turn them in or else, amnesty period...

...then it wouldn't be 'citizens' with guns. Those that didn't comply and still had guns would be law-breakers. They go from 'citizens' to wako, nut job, terrorists that are trying to kill our children who have guns.. Cops would do what they are told and enforce the law. No one wants a baby killer on the streets.

Its all a matter of wording and perspective. Cops enforce unconstitutional laws ALL THE TIME.. Not picking on cops, cops enforce the law, it just is what it is...

[HBARleatherneck]

delete.

[HBARleatherneck]

delete

[Mountain Man]

LOL, lots of stupid in this thread. You do realize that the vast majority of law Enforcement are pro gun right? That means some are anti gun. Colorado is a very pro gun state even with some of the antis they elected. An overwhelming majority of Law Enforcment is pro gun. If you live in Denver the .gov there is anti. But the rest of the state?

For those of us that live in El Paso County. The Sheriff. The top dog in LE there just did a joint venture with Carson to open a shooting range that the public can use. The same dude who just offered to teach teachers firearms skills for free and waived the CCW fees for teachers is coing to order his 500 troops to go door to door taking guns. The Sheriff before him and he issued permits when the old Chief at Colorado Springs hated it. Then they both pushed for shall issue laws in the state. He isn't the Only one Jeffco, Dougco aren't going to either.

Too much tin-foil and getting panties in a wad. I have yet to meet an anti-gun law enforcement officer in this state. They exist but they are in such small numbers in the line level that its not worth noting.

There are many that fight hard against gun control including LEAA and LEAGC.

[waxthis]

I have a low opinion of the cops in my town as it is...Turning anything over to them? Uhmmm, not a ***kin chance in hell.

[Zundfolge]

I think the large risk of losing your own life would outweigh a paycheck.
If that were true I would think the turnover at police departments would be huge.

Most cops aren't cowards, they understand there are risks but feel that their gear, training and authority will keep them safe while kicking in doors.

The cops that will refuse to enforce these unconstitutional laws will do so purely because of integrity and each officer will have to decide if their integrity has a price. Many will not put their integrity above feeding their children.

The big downside is that the high integrity officers will leave their jobs thus leaving law enforcement with less overall integrity.


At any rate, after today's punt by Oblowme I'm feeling more confident that at least on the federal level we will win. I also don't see the state of Colorado going so far as confiscation. So the debate over whether most cops will willingly kick in the doors of their fellow citizens is for the most part still an academic exercise.

[JohnnyEgo]

Ronin:

Few people, in any occupation, are willing to stand for principle over economic security, particularly when families are at stake. It is easy to take a stand when you have nothing at stake. It is an order of magnitude more difficult when you have your personal security or liberty at stake. It is exponentially* more difficult when your family or loved ones will suffer your decisions. That is the nature of humanity.

From a historical perspective, when local law enforcement cannot or will not comply with an order, entities such as the National Guard have been called in to take their place. The Insurrection Act provides an exception to Posse Comitatus that permits the National Guard to engage in law enforcement action under command of the state Governor.

To not understand the mechanisms, both of human nature and of law, by which people can be compelled to do something they might otherwise find morally repugnant, is a mark of ignorance or immaturity.





* As in, small changes along the X axis (family involvement) produce large changes in the Y axis (difficulty), quickly forming a vertical asymptote wherein minimal changes on the X axis drive the Y axis value towards infinity. Also as in: You should have paid more attention in math and/or I was the kind of kid you wanted to beat up in high school.

[USAFGopherMike]

For every 5 that do what is right, there is 1 who will not. There will always be selfish careerist douchebags that will do anything to get ahead, don't have the balls to man up, or are worse yet... from "that" party. I work with plenty of these people. I like to give the LE community in our state the benefit of doubt, but I can't help but be concerned. I think there's going to be a lot of wait and see. Speculation without fact is gas on the fire.

[Monky]

Are you all high!? EVERY SINGLE LEO I've talked to has stated that they're not going to enforce any gun confiscation efforts. The one I took my class with on Sat, who works for Commerce City PD, said everyone in his department, from Patrol officers, to supervisors, to the deputy chief (no word from the chief) all are not going to participate in any gun round-up. This talk of "a paycheck will keep them in line," is BS. If every single cop in a department refuses to go out and take guns away from people what are they going to do? Fire them all? Yeah right. Think of it this way- your boss just told you to increase the risk in your job by 500%, meaning you will most likely get shot at or killed... would you really do it? Some jurisdictions I know are too busy with just day to day calls, much less have the time to go door to door. [Shake] I can't believe the lack of common fricken sense going on in here...

Do you sanitize the badges prior to licking them?

[Ronin13]

ok ronin, follow me here.


what if the government passes legislation banning assault weapons (new ones, transfers, etc)? but, not confiscating them? what if they ban mags over 10 rounds? what about limiting ammo purchases? will the police follow these laws? clearly they have in the past. so, once all the guns are banned and the mags are limited, then what? this will all be incrementally done untill we are defenseless.
Oh I'm following like a blue tick hound... I didn't say it won't be incremental erosion. I'm simply saying that an outright ban and confiscation measure wouldn't work, and wouldn't be enforced... That says nothing of a buy-back or amnesty. Like that saying goes "When you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns."

Ronin:

Few people, in any occupation, are willing to stand for principle over economic security, particularly when families are at stake. It is easy to take a stand when you have nothing at stake. It is an order of magnitude more difficult when you have your personal security or liberty at stake. It is exponentially* more difficult when your family or loved ones will suffer your decisions. That is the nature of humanity.

From a historical perspective, when local law enforcement cannot or will not comply with an order, entities such as the National Guard have been called in to take their place. The Insurrection Act provides an exception to Posse Comitatus that permits the National Guard to engage in law enforcement action under command of the state Governor.

To not understand the mechanisms, both of human nature and of law, by which people can be compelled to do something they might otherwise find morally repugnant, is a mark of ignorance or immaturity.





* As in, small changes along the X axis (family involvement) produce large changes in the Y axis (difficulty), quickly forming a vertical asymptote wherein minimal changes on the X axis drive the Y axis value towards infinity. Also as in: You should have paid more attention in math and/or I was the kind of kid you wanted to beat up in high school.
Except the small thing you're forgetting... In the 1860's Lincoln declared martial law and suspended Posse Comitatus, and the SCOTUS later found that measure to be unconstitutional (but Lincoln was already dead, so they couldn't put forth articles for impeachment). And I know what Exponential means, smartass. I've said it before, not sure if you saw, but "There is nothing more demoralizing to a unit than policing it's own citizens." And again, how many times do the few of us that actually look at the reality of the situation have to repeat ourselves... Stop. Think. Quit using the "people will toe the line for economic security" BS line... Let me put it in plain English (HBAR, don't need you to repeat yourself, I got your point)- As per this conversation, what was suggested, to mean, confiscation efforts (we're excluding buy backs/amnesty- talking outright ban, then if you don't comply, John Law is at your door to take your firearms) WILL LEAD TO THE DEATH OF HUNDREDS, if not THOUSANDS, of LEOs, they will not take part if their daily risk level goes up 500 fold. Capice?

[jhood001]

So these 'LEOs' you've been talking to Ronin... When you were talking to them, did they say they wouldn't enforce confiscations because they were afraid of being shot dead, or did they say they wouldn't enforce confiscations because it is wrong?

[TS12000]

So these 'LEOs' you've been talking to Ronin... When you were talking to them, did they say they wouldn't enforce confiscations because they were afraid of being shot dead, or did they say they wouldn't enforce confiscations because it is wrong?

Oooooh boy [pop]

[lowbeyond]

Oh I'm following like a blue tick hound... I didn't say it won't be incremental erosion. I'm simply saying that an outright ban and confiscation measure wouldn't work, and wouldn't be enforced... That says nothing of a buy-back or amnesty. Like that saying goes "When you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns."


Ok. Fine. Some won't sell em to the State. Now they are criminals.

So now what ?

[Citizen_Soldier]

If that were true I would think the turnover at police departments would be huge.


Well the day to day risk of death for your average LEO is relatively low, at least in smaller cities. I can count on one hand how many homicides occur per year in my entire county. I can't even remember the last LEO who died in the line of duty, it would take a lot of searching.

Law enforcement is all about minimizing risk. When they respond to a call where there is even a possibility of a lethal weapon, not even necessarily a firearm, they will arrive in force with lots of backup. Entire SWAT teams get assembled, fully kitted out, just for a single active shooter. Can you imagine the manpower/equipment/time required to go door to door to thousands of houses, with even 1% of them suspected of owning "assault rifles"? I think the risk is too high both for the officer who wants to go home to his family that night and also for the Chief/Sheriff who is responsible for his men's lives.

[JohnnyEgo]

Ronin, I am going to give you a pass because even though I believe you are young and ignorant, I also believe you are well intentioned. For all the grandiose talk, this very thing has repeated itself throughout history, c.f. the UK, Australia, or even here during Prohibition. A lot of people might look the other way or use discretion when there is little risk. Fewer will outright refuse an order.

And if you are going to cite history as a counterpoint to law, then you should demonstrate a better understanding of both. Understanding the Insurrection clause to Posse Comitatus would be a good place to begin. Long after Lincoln, the National Guard has been used when local law enforcement could not or would not obey orders. This has been for both good and ill. You shoulda easily be able to come up with the examples yourself, such as the Civil Rights movement or Katrina. You can argue theory all you want, but it is a poor substitute to experience.

I have to go and subsidize the 47% now that my lunch break is over, then Arrow is on the CW tonight, and I find it more stimulating then this discussion. So you will forgive me if I don't respond promptly to whatever insightful counterpoint you have to offer.

[sniper7]

It will just take one cop getting shot and the rest of the pissed off force will be busting down doors with tanks.

Or they might think it isnt worth it. Would have to be on a major scale and not isolated events

[Ronin13]

So these 'LEOs' you've been talking to Ronin... When you were talking to them, did they say they wouldn't enforce confiscations because they were afraid of being shot dead, or did they say they wouldn't enforce confiscations because it is wrong?
Both, actually. Many said that it's increased and unnecessary risk, and a clear and present violation of the 2nd Amendment. [Beer]

I won't direct any response to JohnnyEgo- it's pretty obvious he didn't comprehend what I wrote earlier and already has some sort of preconceived notion that I'm ignorant due to my age... whatever, pal. [Roll1]

[10mm-man]

Ok, so I'm just mistaken that I didn't see already 12 CLEOs saying they will refuse to enforce any unconstitutional laws? If 90% of all cops refuse to enforce ONE law (jay walking is against the law, I've never seen anyone in the last 10 years get popped for it) they won't be fired. Especially if their Chief/Sheriff refuses to do so... Like you said, we'll see what happens, but I don't see a confiscation getting through congress.


I am a little fuzzy on this logic... Tell me; is not the registration of NFA items unconstitutional? How many LEO enforce that BS law? Set me straight as I am confused....

Think i am gonna go saw off a few shot guns, convert some Ar's into full auto and just keep em off the books! No need to worry about any LEO enforcing that because it's unconstitutional..... Yea!

[Ronin13]

I am a little fuzzy on this logic... Tell me; is not the registration of NFA items unconstitutional? How many LEO enforce that BS law? Set me straight as I am confused....

Think i am gonna go saw off a few shot guns, convert some Ar's into full auto and just keep em off the books! No need to worry about any LEO enforcing that because it's unconstitutional..... Yea!
Red herring... Yes, NFA is unconstitutional, yes it's illegally enforced. But watered down masses don't understand this, so you go ahead and test that out with our current legal system and see if it gets all the way up to the SCOTUS. I see what you're trying to do here, but in a broad sense, if an all out gun ban (not something disguised as "common sense" "regulation") did happen, that's where the common person would most likely draw the line.

[10mm-man]

Red herring... Yes, NFA is unconstitutional, yes it's illegally enforced. But watered down masses don't understand this, so you go ahead and test that out with our current legal system and see if it gets all the way up to the SCOTUS. I see what you're trying to do here, but in a broad sense, if an all out gun ban (not something disguised as "common sense" "regulation") did happen, that's where the common person would most likely draw the line.


So the argument is that "Common Sense" would kick in??? Please do explain how that is gonna work..........

Edit: confused about the common person most likely drawing the line. What do you mean?

[Ronin13]

So the argument is that "Common Sense" would kick in??? Please do explain how that is gonna work..........

Edit: confused about the common person most likely drawing the line. What do you mean?
Kind of hard to explain, but your average LEO, Judge, etc wouldn't see the NFA as being unconstitutional (even though it is, and I can't think of anyone who would try to press that issue and bring up to the SCOTUS)... but sure, there are a lot of laws that infringe upon the constitution (NDAA, Patriot Act, etc), but where is the line drawn? With most "sport/hunting" gun owners (IE: the ones who are dumb enough to think that's the intent of 2A) they'll only take so much- they're fine with NFA, they're okay with '86 ban, etc... but when you talk about an all out ban, your average Joe, John Law, and Sheriff Bob will say "Okay, that's too far!" It's already floating around that a lot of Dems in Congress oppose Fecalstein's proposals, of course that's not saying that the average, ignorant gun owning public won't go along with some grandfather clause AWB or Capacity restrictions, but an all out ban and confiscation won't fly.

[Ashton]

[Pop][Pop][Pop][Pop][Pop][Pop][Pop][Pop][Pop]

When Ronin gets going on his cop threads I just laugh out loud.

[ChunkyMonkey]

Ronin, to test your statement, you should walk around in evergreen open carry and left your ID at home.

[HBARleatherneck]

delete

[10mm-man]

Ronin,

So as long as the government just implements the AWB, and just limits guns to 10 rounds, and just....

then we can expect no help from LEOs? But, if after banning everything else, they tried to implement a confiscation, then the LEOs would be on our side?

So, stomping the 2a is ok with your LEO contacts up until they actually call for confiscation?





I am not trying to make this about cops, definetly not bashing. My questions are directed to Ronin and his friends who are obviously super stand up guys.

Cops are employed to enforce the law(essentially). Why would we expect less of them?


The future LEO officer, right here folks! Pull up a chair, this is GREAT............. No wonder I feel so safe, shit who needs an AWB, I'm gonna go turn mine in...... Don't worry Ronin and his 12 CLOEs got it folks!


Yea, not bashing either ........ [Beer]

[T-Giv]

Completely off topic, but Jaywalking is actually enforced quite frequently. Usually people that jaywalk (especially late at night) are the ones that don't follow many other laws and have warrants. Other than that I am staying the hell out of this thread. 10mm you are an asshole, regardless of how nice your Jeep is. [Beer]

[JM Ver. 2.0]

I'm just gonna sit here with my popcorn and keep my mouth shut...... :)

[10mm-man]

10mm you are an asshole, regardless of how nice your Jeep is. [Beer]

I feel like that was a compliment, I changed my mind; I will pick you up!

[JoeT]

Heinrich Himmler turned the regular police forces into an instruments of terror and used ruthless and cruel methods throughout Germany arresting political opponents and others who refused to obey laws and policies of the Nazi regime.

I'm sure none of the Schutzstaffel woke up one day and decided to execute 15 million people. They were just following orders

Byte has a good thread here about what will "they" say about you when your dead.

When the time comes, I would guess that 75% of the people voluntarily "give up their arms" when the orders come, 23% will hide their guns and hope their never found out (or turn in "some" and hide the rest) and 2 % will be executed in no knock raids as terrorists and said to be a threat to homeland security (or something like that)...maybe it will be that they had received a call of a disturbance and the homeowner opened fire and was killed


Now I'm also not saying that 100% of cops will go out and do the government's dirty work... But most will, many will be neutral and "pretend to play the game" with the department, and a VERY small minority will refuse, and even fewer of those will "take up arms" against the tyranny

[car-15]

I had a feeling this thread was not going to go well 6 pages ago when it popped up....[Pop]

[10mm-man]

Heinrich Himmler turned the regular police forces into an instruments of terror and used ruthless and cruel methods throughout Germany arresting political opponents and others who refused to obey laws and policies of the Nazi regime.

I'm sure none of the Schutzstaffel woke up one day and decided to execute 15 million people. They were just following orders

Byte has a good thread here about what will "they" say about you when your dead.

When the time comes, I would guess that 75% of the people voluntarily "give up their arms" when the orders come, 23% will hide their guns and hope their never found out (or turn is "some" and his the rest) and 2 % will be executed in no knock raids as terrorists and said to be a threat to homeland security (or something like that)...maybe it will be that they had received a call of a disturbance and the homeowner opened fire and was killed


Now I'm also not saying that 100% of cops will go out and do the government's dirty work... But most will, many will be neutral and "play the game" with the department and a VERY small minority will refuse, and even fewer of those will "take up arms" against the tyranny


+1 ^^^^^ Smart guy!

[Ronin13]

I can only get ganged up on so much before I just say this is just too much... and well, this is just too much. Look I was just trying to say every LEO I've talked to said they wouldn't support or enforce any confiscation... you guys take this off on all kinds of "what ifs" and out of control tangents. I don't know everything, I don't know what laws are okay and not okay to enforce in regard to individual department policy in regards to the Constitution, and I don't know what my friends' every, little position is on the Constitutionality and enforcement of current firearms legislation. And frankly, I don't understand why you guys have to keep doing this- pick the most asinine argument you can and just go for it. Seriously, some of these situations are along the same lines of a Piers Morgan argument. And 10mm- I don't appreciate the sarcastic and crude patronizing here, I'm not trying to be supercop or anything, forgive me for wanting to do something in that area.

[10mm-man]

And 10mm- I don't appreciate the sarcastic and crude patronizing here, I'm not trying to be supercop or anything, forgive me for wanting to do something in that area.

Your right, my bad.......... Good luck to ya! [Beer]

[Ashton]

I can only get ganged up on so much before I just say this is just too much... and well, this is just too much. .

Guessing LEO will eventually say the same about "not confiscating"... Considering you want to be LEO and all.

[bogie]

I can only get ganged up on so much before I just say this is just too much... and well, this is just too much. Look I was just trying to say every LEO I've talked to said they wouldn't support or enforce any confiscation... you guys take this off on all kinds of "what ifs" and out of control tangents. I don't know everything, I don't know what laws are okay and not okay to enforce in regard to individual department policy in regards to the Constitution, and I don't know what my friends' every, little position is on the Constitutionality and enforcement of current firearms legislation. And frankly, I don't understand why you guys have to keep doing this- pick the most asinine argument you can and just go for it. Seriously, some of these situations are along the same lines of a Piers Morgan argument. And 10mm- I don't appreciate the sarcastic and crude patronizing here, I'm not trying to be supercop or anything, forgive me for wanting to do something in that area.

You began your argument with an accusation that people posting in this thread are high and lack common sense. Disagree all you want, but knocking that shit off may help your case next time.. [Wink] [gohome]

[mitch]

I have this bucket of magnesium and aluminum shavings sitting next to a bucket of REALLY Rusty bolts....
Really? And here I am with some mercury and nitric acid sitting over a small container of ethanol. What was I thinking.....

[jhood001]

Look I was just trying to say every LEO I've talked to said they wouldn't support or enforce any confiscation... .

Okay. Now that we know what you were trying to say, let's revisit what you did say. And more importantly, how you said it -


Are you all high!? EVERY SINGLE LEO I've talked to has stated that they're not going to enforce any gun confiscation efforts. The one I took my class with on Sat, who works for Commerce City PD, said everyone in his department, from Patrol officers, to supervisors, to the deputy chief (no word from the chief) all are not going to participate in any gun round-up. This talk of "a paycheck will keep them in line," is BS. If every single cop in a department refuses to go out and take guns away from people what are they going to do? Fire them all? Yeah right. Think of it this way- your boss just told you to increase the risk in your job by 500%, meaning you will most likely get shot at or killed... would you really do it? Some jurisdictions I know are too busy with just day to day calls, much less have the time to go door to door. [Shake] I can't believe the lack of common fricken sense going on in here...

History tells us that people will go against their better judgement and current morals if the pressure is great enough, or if enough of the populace is moving in a particular direction. JoeT had solid points. While you may believe that Germany was filled with evil people during the reign of Nazism, the reality is that they were no different than us. They were sold a lie regarding their immediate neighbors and the Jews living amongst them. Just like a lie is being sold right now about how gun owners are evil.

People will look the other way on things when they are the minority. They'll completely march in that other way-ardly direction if their livelihoods, safety, and family are threatened. Not all... But most. That is the point the others are trying to make to you in this thread. Sorry if you see it as posters ganging up on you.

[Ronin13]

You began your argument with an accusation that people posting in this thread are high and lack common sense. Disagree all you want, but knocking that shit off may help your case next time.. [Wink] [gohome]
False. Inquiry is not accusation. [Beer]

[Ronin13]

Okay. Now that we know what you were trying to say, let's revisit what you did say. And more importantly, how you said it -

Ah ha, but you say at the end of this quote the sorry if I see it as being ganged up, more importantly is how it was presented towards me... Hence why I drew that conclusion. And I fail to understand how an inquiry made partially in jest "Are you all high!?" in any way translates to an insult or accusation. Further, the common sense comment was made because if you were to look at the topic objectively and see from the enforcement perspective no one in their right mind would take a pay check over their life. "Ah shit, I'm probably going to get shot by some guy who doesn't want to give up his guns today- but hey, at least I'm gonna get paid!" See? That holds about as much water as a funnel.

History tells us that people will go against their better judgement and current morals if the pressure is great enough, or if enough of the populace is moving in a particular direction. JoeT had solid points. While you may believe that Germany was filled with evil people during the reign of Nazism, the reality is that they were no different than us. They were sold a lie regarding their immediate neighbors and the Jews living amongst them. Just like a lie is being sold right now about how gun owners are evil.

People will look the other way on things when they are the minority. They'll completely march in that other way-ardly direction if their livelihoods, safety, and family are threatened. Not all... But most. That is the point the others are trying to make to you in this thread. Sorry if you see it as posters ganging up on you.
No, I don't believe Germany was filled with evil people, duped, yes, but not evil, at least not inherently evil. "The most important lesson I learned from fighting in Europe during WWII was that evil triumphs when good men do nothing." -A 10th MTN veteran of WWII.
I understand the point being made to me in this thread, I wasn't arguing against that at all. I was only stating that confiscation is very unpopular among the LE community right now. Could that change in the future? Of course- look at our stance on segregation now... Not equating gun control in the same light as the civil rights movement, just illustrating how popularity of issues shift through history. [Beer]

[Monky]

No, I don't believe Germany was filled with evil people, duped, yes, but not evil, at least not inherently evil. "The most important lesson I learned from fighting in Europe during WWII was that evil triumphs when good men do nothing." -A 10th MTN veteran of WWII.

I understand the point being made to me in this thread, I wasn't arguing against that at all. I was only stating that confiscation is very unpopular among the LE community right now. Could that change in the future? Of course- look at our stance on segregation now... Not equating gun control in the same light as the civil rights movement, just illustrating how popularity of issues shift through history. <img src="images/smilies/anim_beer1.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Beer" smilieid="102" class="inlineimg">

Actually.. Edmund Burke is given that quote.. 'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing (http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/2298.html)', just because some person from the 10th mtn division paraphrased it doesn't make it theirs.

Just hand over the shovel and quit digging.

[jhood001]

Further, the common sense comment was made because

Please stop saying 'common sense' when trying to prove your points. I have heard the phrase 'common sense gun-laws' enough in the past few weeks to realize that anyone saying 'common sense' about anything is just trying to cow others into believing that their opinions are wrong.


I can't believe the lack of common fricken sense going on in here...

Common fricken sense? Based on how this thread has gone, your sense is probably the least-common on this matter. Perhaps that is something to ponder.

Have a good evening, Ronin.

[Zundfolge]

Invoking "common sense" to buttress one's argument is the refuge of a weak argument (or arguer). In fact "Appeal to Common Sense" is often listed as a "Fallacy of Logic".

http://www.mcckc.edu/longview/socsci/psyc/westra/CommonSense/cs4.html


Look Ronin, you and I may agree that a particular position is indeed "common sense" but relying on the term is intellectually lazy and leaves you way too open to people poking holes in your argument regardless of the degree of rightness of said position.

Your use of ad hominems isn't helping either.

[Ronin13]

Actually.. Edmund Burke is given that quote.. 'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing (http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/2298.html)', just because some person from the 10th mtn division paraphrased it doesn't make it theirs.

Just hand over the shovel and quit digging.
Gosh, my knees hurt, you wanna stop hacking at them? For once, can I ask respectfully that you back off just a bit... jeez, you're like that stereotypical high school bully who just picks every little thing out to go after.... CONTEXT. I know Edmund Burke originally said it, remove the stick from your 4th point of contact already. The key words were not the quote paraphrasing, but in context of Germany, WWII, etc. If I have to I'll go slow and explain it to you... you see, in the 1940's we invaded Europe to liberate it from the grip of the Germans. Our soldiers saw first hand the tyranny that was allowed to occur at the hands of the Nazis, and many were left asking "how did it get so far so fast?" That's when the realization that Germany wouldn't have gotten so far had one of the good folks stood up and stopped it. Hence the context of the quote... and why I attributed it to the WWII vet instead of Burke. And you can have my shovel when you pry it from my cold dead hands, thank you very much.


Please stop saying 'common sense' when trying to prove your points. I have heard the phrase 'common sense gun-laws' enough in the past few weeks to realize that anyone saying 'common sense' about anything is just trying to cow others into believing that their opinions are wrong.



Common fricken sense? Based on how this thread has gone, your sense is probably the least-common on this matter. Perhaps that is something to ponder.

Have a good evening, Ronin.
Okay, I'll use Logic... there's a word that escapes the average liberal mind. Of course I'd love to ponder your opinion but you had to resort to an insult so I stopped accepting your input right there... You have a good evening yourself.

[jhood001]

Okay, I'll use Logic... there's a word that escapes the average liberal mind. Of course I'd love to ponder your opinion but you had to resort to an insult so I stopped accepting your input right there... You have a good evening yourself.

I didn't 'resort' to anything. Nor did I insult you in any fashion.

[bogie]

False. Inquiry is not accusation. [Beer]

Rhetoric is not inquiry. [Beer]

[Ronin13]

I didn't 'resort' to anything. Nor did I insult you in any fashion.
I took:

Based on how this thread has gone, your sense is probably the least-common on this matter.
To be in an insulting fashion, although not a direct insult.

[jhood001]

I took:

To be in an insulting fashion, although not a direct insult.

I see. Well, I'm sorry you took it that way. I meant that your opinion on the matter, after the blow-back you experienced, was in the minority.

[USAFGopherMike]

/ hugs? Oh.. and I know you meant to say that the allies went to liberate Europe from the Axis powers which included the Nazis, not the average German people who were caught up in it. Splitting hairs I know, and I'm not attacking you so please don't get defensive. Having lived there for 4 years and talking to lots of older Germans, their perspective was interesting. If common sense were common, more people would have some.

[Byte Stryke]

Really? And here I am with some mercury and nitric acid sitting over a small container of ethanol. What was I thinking.....

Mine was leaning more to the fact that tanks tend not to work so well when parts are fused together outside of manufacturers specifications :)

[waxthis]

I really miss the Budweiser frogs.

[muddywings]

damm...I read the first page then jumped to the last. Now I'm going to have the read the other 6 pages to figure WTF happened. Thanks a lot guys!

[Byte Stryke]

damm...I read the first page then jumped to the last. Now I'm going to have the read the other 6 pages to figure WTF happened. Thanks a lot guys!

this is the part where I really screw with your mind and tell you there are only 2 pages

[Monky]

this is the part where I really screw with your mind and tell you there are only 2 pages

Yep.. only 2 pages here too.

[blacklabel]

Yep.. only 2 pages here too.

Same here.

[Ronin13]

/ hugs? Oh.. and I know you meant to say that the allies went to liberate Europe from the Axis powers which included the Nazis, not the average German people who were caught up in it. Splitting hairs I know, and I'm not attacking you so please don't get defensive. Having lived there for 4 years and talking to lots of older Germans, their perspective was interesting. If common sense were common, more people would have some.
You ARE splitting hairs, jeez! [LOL]Sorry, I was using the interchangeable word Germans with Nazis and visa versa... My bad- even though we did formally declare war against the nation of Germany.

I see. Well, I'm sorry you took it that way. I meant that your opinion on the matter, after the blow-back you experienced, was in the minority.
Yes, I see I'm frequently in the minority... But hey, if we all had the exact same view and opinion on everything there would be no exciting and fun discussion (but then my feelings wouldn't be hurt so often [Flower]- Joking, my feelings don't get hurt via interwebz).

this is the part where I really screw with your mind and tell you there are only 2 pages
I guess someone doesn't know how to set posts per page... jeez, n00bz... [Coffee]

[10mm-man]

Found this interesting; "Also, 'The National Sheriff's Association' has supported administration efforts to combat gun violence after the Sandy Hook Elementary shootings. President Larry Amerson, sheriff of Calhoun, Ala., said he understands the frustrations of people in rural areas with the federal government. But he feels his oath of office binds him to uphold all laws."

http://www.allproudamericans.com/Sheriffs-Refuse-to-Uphold-Gun-Laws.html

[kilovictor]

Speaking of Reddit (which i don't know much about) what's up with the founder dying in a mysterious car crash- and his father coming out yesterday saying the govt killed him???

[Mountain Man]

The national Sheriff's Association, IACP, PERF and the FOP are all supporting gun control "officially". Except for the FOP they are groups of administrators not the line level. The FOP is generally line level and they are taking a huge hit over their stance in 94. They sent a letter out saying they supported a ban like the 94 one because of a vote in 93. They are experiencing a huge backlash right now with members stating they will drop the FOP like a hot rock if they support any gun control legislation. The FOP hasn't put out an official stance yet. Losing 30 to 60 bucks a month per person is definitely going to put a damper on things.

The line level gets very little representation. The mouthpiece of any agency where the leader is not elected like a sheriff usually bends to the will of the person who appointed them. Chicago's mayor and Chief New Yorks mayor and chief. They say what they are told despite the belief of the rank and file who actually work the streets. Thats how they got appointed to begin with.

There are a few movements to change that. The FOP is in the best position but it is an East Coast based organization and if any agencies are more like to be Anti in my opinion its them.

The Middle and Western portion of the country seems to be much more friendly to personal responsibility and freedom.

[jhood001]

Speaking of Reddit (which i don't know much about) what's up with the founder dying in a mysterious car crash- and his father coming out yesterday saying the govt killed him???

He killed himself. His father blames the government for prosecuting him for hacking.

[muddywings]

I guess someone doesn't know how to set posts per page... jeez, n00bz... [Coffee]

Fine...be that way....fixed that problem now I'll go home to play. [gohome]

[Ronin13]

Fine...be that way....fixed that problem now I'll go home to play. [gohome]
[LOL] There there now, don't be sad... [smilesex](No Homo).

[Robb]

IF TRUE, this is how bad some states are and how far the police are willing to go:

From the Luger Forum:
Going to be selling my Luger as soon as I get it back....
Turns out that the Maryland State Police I dealt with when I started restoring my Luger that said I did not have to register it were wrong. Yesterday my house was raided by 20 armed tactical police officers searching for unregistered firearms and my Luger was confiscated along with a 1891 Mauser. They trashed my house, 3 officers held me and my family at gun point in our living room even though I told them exactly where the Luger and Mauser were located. Then to top it all off they arrested me for possesion of unregistered regulated firearms! I told them I talked to the state police licence and registration dept and was told because they were inherited before the law stating they needed to be registered was even around they didn't care. Off to jail I went, spent the day in a 5 by 9 cell and was released with no bail by the commisioner and told to wait for my court date.

So thats it I've had it with the non-sense in this state and as soon as I get my guns back they will be for sale. My lawyer said not to worry that the whole thing is BS and I will get my guns back and everything will be ok.

Gotta love living in a police state were 20 jack booted hooded thugs in black can kick in your door and hold you at gun point with their MP5's for no reason and confiscate your property and throw you in jail as they see fit. I'm just lucky they shoot and kill my dogs.