View Full Version : Pistol proficiency standards for self defense
rustycrusty
01-24-2013, 04:09
1)What do you consider being 'proficient' with a pistol to entail? (What do you measure?)
2)What is 'good enough' performance in the use of a pistol to confidently carry? (What is the passing grade for chosen metrics?)
3)What do you use (if any) to measure your skill level? (1drill? Multiple drills?)
Short and specific please. I am looking for any consensus.
rustycrusty
01-24-2013, 04:24
Mods, mind moving this to either training or to CCW areas? Don't think it fits here, sry
There's a thread about drills in training
I like the csat standards
Something along the lines of POST : (PDF) http://www.coloradoattorneygeneral.gov/sites/default/files/uploads/HANDGUN%20QUALIFICATION%20COURSE.pdf
All on silhouette, 25 rounds, varying distance, varying drills.
Some drills are LEO specific (handcuffing) but you could adapt to "real" life AKA house keys.
JM Ver. 2.0
01-24-2013, 06:35
I prefer the "Ghetto Back Alley Qualification Course." Shooting over a 7-11 counter with your Glock sideways is one of the major tests. The other is the hand above the head, Glock sideways, pointed in a downward angle, while thrusting your hand forward with every trigger pull technique. Very difficult to master....
[LOL]
Bailey Guns
01-24-2013, 07:30
Short and specific please. I am looking for any consensus.
Good luck with that!
Mick-Boy
01-24-2013, 07:55
I prefer the "Ghetto Back Alley Qualification Course." Shooting over a 7-11 counter with your Glock sideways is one of the major tests. The other is the hand above the head, Glock sideways, pointed in a downward angle, while thrusting your hand forward with every trigger pull technique. Very difficult to master....
[LOL]
Here's (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYvsWo0uu8o) a short video lesson to ensure you do it properly.
Mick-Boy
01-24-2013, 08:03
In all seriousness though, a guy on another forum put this compilation of drills (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B24LvkvOQ-1kcUpJZTJoTVFSakNwV1dJUjZGakxOUQ/edit) together. Pick one, shoot it, then work on what you need to work on.
Drills and quals can be good at exposing weaknesses in you training. If your accuracy isn't getting the job done, train accuracy. If the speed isn't there, train that. If it's your gun handling, that's what you need to practice. And so on. Don't shoot the same drill/qual over and over. It will lose it's training value and become nothing more than a range trick.
Great-Kazoo
01-24-2013, 08:48
Coming out the winner. When and IF it goes down, you don't have a passive target 3-25 yds down range. You have approx 150-275 lbs of potential drug fueled predator coming out of no where (if you're not paying attention) or from multiple places (Love those 7 rounds NY'kers) all in a possible blur. How you react at that split second will be the game changer for everyone.
Physical abilities are as important. For some of us (such as myself) due to disabilities, are already ahead or behind the curve, IF an encounter were to happen.
SO not only is firearm technique good to practice, but trying not to be in a spot where you are already off balance (probably not coming out as i want it to) hopefully you get the idea.
Don't forget most of the time you are in a public place
The next thing to be concerned about is Friendly Fire. There are a shit load of folks who should become better witness than react, as we all read in a few threads here and other gun forums.
When I teach a basic citizens class (intro or basic CCW) - my goal for my students is 3 shots - fired at 1 second intervals, in a 8 inch circle at 7 yards. My minimum passing (I have failed students before and refused to sign off on thier CCW) is 3 shots on full sized silhouettes at 5 yards in very rapid (fast as they can) successon. Not anything super hard - but you would be suprised.
I am not saying, in any way, that this shows marksman type proficiency or that this a high goal for people to achieve. In my mind it is the absolute basement minimum acceptable critera for the average 35 year old soccer mom who wants to carry. I always encourage my students to work on marksmanship and to get better.
1)What do you consider being 'proficient' with a pistol to entail? (What do you measure?)
2)What is 'good enough' performance in the use of a pistol to confidently carry? (What is the passing grade for chosen metrics?)
3)What do you use (if any) to measure your skill level? (1drill? Multiple drills?)
Short and specific please. I am looking for any consensus.
Any concensus will be woefully short of competence.
1. Proficiency means you NEVER stop training. I have put over 5000 people through my courses. I stress regular practice, training and competitions to maintain and improve the skillsets. From what I can tell, about 5% do this.
2. Again, good enough is never enough when we are talking about peoples lives on the line. I have seen some instructors, even some "celebrated ones" shoot and the overall performance of even CCW trainers is pretty low. THis is especially true when it comes to movement. Get off the dang X! Shooting in static pistol lanes becomes too much after the basic level (which is insufficient IMHO) is reached.
3. The crucible of competition, wether formalized or not, is how I measure skill level as it comes to pistol skills.
Even with that, pistol proficieny is maybe 5% of the total personal protection package. Your personal safety skills, awareness, avoidance, verbal judo skills, evasion skills, physical, light, planning etc. are ALL more important to lay the foundation for the pistol skills.
rustycrusty
01-24-2013, 13:33
When I teach a basic citizens class (intro or basic CCW) - my goal for my students is 3 shots - fired at 1 second intervals, in a 8 inch circle at 7 yards. My minimum passing (I have failed students before and refused to sign off on thier CCW) is 3 shots on full sized silhouettes at 5 yards in very rapid (fast as they can) successon. Not anything super hard - but you would be suprised.
I am only surprised that you successfully pass most of your students. I like the timed aspect. I like requiring multiple shots. I like that shots need to be on a silhoutte. I think you are working to standards that show students exactly how screwed they are in a real confrontation.
MarkCO-
I completely agree with you on the 5%. The number frustrates me. Also- I see the value of competition as training and as evidence of drive. Do you have a specific drill such as the one above that you use as a measure in your classes?
For everyone without a standard qualification-(trying not to make this sound so harsh) why not?
-not just asking instructors, asking individual shooters.
In speaking about a commonly practiced distance (7-10yds) with commonly practiced strings of fire,
what do you all consider a minimum necessary for effective self defense in the following:
1)draw time? (Measured from beep to first acceptable shot on target)
2)acceptable shot on target? (Where do you count as a 'good hit')
3)group size? (Measured from beep to fast double, acceptable shot dispersion)
many more questions to come. Thanks for answers and keep them coming!
I am only surprised that you successfully pass most of your students. I like the timed aspect. I like requiring multiple shots. I like that shots need to be on a silhoutte. I think you are working to standards that show students exactly how screwed they are in a real confrontation.
I do more 'botique' type of classes -- very small. Usually 1-3 people at a time (families, couples, etc). We do the basics and then concentrate on the realities of whatever thier situation may be (and how that differs from the artifical reality in thier heads). I don't do it as a full-time gig -- far far from it. ;)
I would say consistency with hitting your target, not abiding by the standards the NRA puts forth (5 hits within a very tight 9in group [LOL]), and repeated displays of safe and competent firearms handling- drawing, operation, reloading, etc. In a nutshell. You don't want too detailed that's really all I can fire off without going into more detail, which I will if need be.
FireMoth
01-24-2013, 18:17
Fire arms manipulations are obviously a necessary skill set. However I strongly endorse practice that engages problem solving and decision making skills, as well as simulates body stress/body alarm.
Engaging a 8" combat effective zone is sufficient for defensive purposes, as long as A) its pass fail. No shots outside the combat effective area are acceptable. If you cant keep C.O.NM. in training, your likely a liability in the world. B) it can be done from concealment or retention at ranges out to a minimum of 25yds from multiple positions. C) It can be done under exercise or time induced stress to simulate body alarm.
The list could go on, but the point is that firearms proficiency means nothing if it falls apart in a disruptive environment. What ever your training standard is, it needs to be done frequently enough that it is reflexively repeatable, on demand, under stress. So much so, that i leaves you the ability to THINK.
Very little of any conflict with arms is the actual use of that arm. It is observation, decision making, and maneuver. This will take up most of your attention, and there for your manipulations of the weapon system need to be fluid and simple enough to allow for it.
rustycrusty, yes I do. There are people on here that can tell you what there scores were, but passing is in noway a guaranteee. I have had about 5 total who never could pass it. You will note it is about 2 seconds per round. When I designed this, I set it up and shot it, multiplied my time by 3 and there it is. I do also spend time now with about 30 rounds in the range session from rollover prone and from the side. Huge tactical advantages in some situations. They have to get on 10 of 10 on-target hits to take the test below.
SET-UP: Three IDPA targets spaced 3 feet on center. Place a standard barricade at 10 yards. Set up one “retention” target per student with center of “0” zone 4’ off ground.
1. (10) String 1 - From low ready, fire 5 shots on retention target at 5 yards. String 2 - From holster, draw and fire 5 shots on retention target at 5 yards. Max Score = 20 Seconds
Instr. S1 + S2 + (P )*.5 = Score
2. (12) String 1 - From low ready, fire 2 shots per each of 3 targets at 5 yards. String 2 - From holster, fire 2 shots per each of 3 targets at 5 yards. Max Score = 25 Seconds
Instr. S1 + S2 + (P )*.5 = Score
3. (12) From 10 yard barricade, draw and engage each of three targets with 2 rounds. Move to other side of barricade and re-engage similarly strong hand only. Max Score = 28 Seconds
Instr. S1 + (P )*.5 = Score
4. (12). String 1 - From the 10 yard line, draw and engage each target with 2 rounds while advancing. String 2 - From 5 yard line, draw and engage each target with 2 rounds while retreating. Max Score = 28 Seconds.
Instr. S1 + S2 + (P )*.5 = Score
5. (18). String 1 - From center of 2 yard line, draw and engage each target with 2 rounds, reload and engage each target with 2 rounds. String 2 - Draw and engage each target with 2 rounds strong hand only. Max Score = 35 Seconds.
Instr. S1 + S2 + (P )*.5 = Score
6. (6). String 1 - From close contact distance, draw and engage retention target with 2 rounds using close retention, strong hand only, fire 4 rounds while retreating and transitioning to freestyle. Max Score = 12 seconds.
Instr. S1 + (P )*.5 = Score
In order to pass the shooting test, all stages must be shot with less than the max score. Any DQable safety infractions will result in failure. You will be allowed a maximum of two re-shoot stages. If you need brief additional instruction on a specific stage, it will be given at the range session. You must pass any failed stages on the second try to pass the course. Gun jams or breakages will not count for your score.
1)draw time? (Measured from beep to first acceptable shot on target) WHO cares. Drawing to a threat is a sure death. Moving off the X, draw and fire, sure, I like 3 seconds or less.
2)acceptable shot on target? (Where do you count as a 'good hit') COM
3)group size? (Measured from beep to fast double, acceptable shot dispersion) See 1 and 2.
rustycrusty
01-24-2013, 21:02
Excellent. Thank you guys- I was looking for numbers to play with and that gives me a good idea where to start and what to refine.
Firemoth-
I realize there is a massive amount of variables to consider here and the mental game is huge.
what I am more focused on is what expectations we should have of ourselves and students when in a controlled setting in ideal conditions.
I am interested in this only in trying to measure what good times/scores are for drills measuring specifically the 'programmed' portion of shooting.
when I train, I focus much of my training on getting rid of variables in technique. I am trying to train myself to have manipulations that are instinct, presentation that is instinct, and shot placement that is instinctual. These concepts are what I am trying to focus on here.
the other aspects of my training are mental game, stress exercises, etc- but for the sake of focusing on a single aspect in order to best measure it, I would like to hone in on what the expectations are for a shooters 'programmed' responses in a non stressed controlled environment like the range.
i understand that by focusing the discussion in this way that many important variables are ignored
Mick-Boy
01-26-2013, 12:35
Excellent. Thank you guys- I was looking for numbers to play with and that gives me a good idea where to start and what to refine.
Firemoth-
I realize there is a massive amount of variables to consider here and the mental game is huge.
what I am more focused on is what expectations we should have of ourselves and students when in a controlled setting in ideal conditions.
I am interested in this only in trying to measure what good times/scores are for drills measuring specifically the 'programmed' portion of shooting.
when I train, I focus much of my training on getting rid of variables in technique. I am trying to train myself to have manipulations that are instinct, presentation that is instinct, and shot placement that is instinctual. These concepts are what I am trying to focus on here.
the other aspects of my training are mental game, stress exercises, etc- but for the sake of focusing on a single aspect in order to best measure it, I would like to hone in on what the expectations are for a shooters 'programmed' responses in a non stressed controlled environment like the range.
i understand that by focusing the discussion in this way that many important variables are ignored
Did you look at the link I posted on the first page (not the video, the collection of drills). There are 15 pages of drills to pick and choose from to give yourself a baseline performance evaluation on time and accuracy.
For the other stuff, you might reference cmailliard's Training and Mindset (http://www.ar-15.co/threads/43756-Training-and-Mindset) thread from the training forum.
First time I have seen the POST shooting requirements. I am disappointed, thought it would be tougher.
Something along the lines of POST : (PDF) http://www.coloradoattorneygeneral.gov/sites/default/files/uploads/HANDGUN%20QUALIFICATION%20COURSE.pdf
All on silhouette, 25 rounds, varying distance, varying drills.
Some drills are LEO specific (handcuffing) but you could adapt to "real" life AKA house keys.
Wildboarem
01-27-2013, 10:24
I think this is a question that can't be answered. You can have all quals in the world and have competition under your belt and completely freeze up or fail when the time comes. Practice is good, training and competition as well, but if one isn't cool under pressure and of strong mind none of it matters. Look at martial arts for instance. You can train for years, have all the belts in the world and get jumped one day and get your ass handed to you by some punk. How do you measure the mental side? It can't. I think force on force is the closest thing to measure but no one really knows.
I have seen a few "lock up" when things get tough. Only happened once to each of them and thankfully there were others there who got it done. Thankfully we all got to use it as a learning experience.
I pretty much count on myself locking up in an event. In fact, I think that is a lot of the reason I do shooting competitions. I tend to stand still and try and figure out what is going on. If I train my body, maybe I'll get lucky and my body will act without me having to think too much.
rustycrusty
01-28-2013, 01:45
Wildboarem-
I agree with your view that he mental aspect and the true stress of a situation is not replicable in drills. Are you saying that because this aspect isn't measurable then proficiency testing is impossible?
When you mention martial arts and belts I cringe. Someone is not a badass because they can chop a board in half, and most martial arts belting is crap. I agree with you there. That being said, a coward who can throw a decent punch is still one step above one that can't. It is the athletic ability I am wondering about.
scenario:
you have been knocked out from behind. crazy guy is standing over your unconscious body preparing to deal you a final blow. Former student of yours intervenes, taking aim at assailant with a pistol. What drills offered in your class are you wishing this guy has down perfect.
and to specify further- drills include live fire on a range and any arrangement of targets you have at your disposal currently. Any sequence of shots, movement, verbal commands. This is a lethal force scenario.
I know it's specific, but I am trying to feel people's requirements for shooting ability. Not problem solving, not guts or nerve. Lets limit the variables. I have my opinions on this. I want yours
I think this is a question that can't be answered. You can have all quals in the world and have competition under your belt and completely freeze up or fail when the time comes. Practice is good, training and competition as well, but if one isn't cool under pressure and of strong mind none of it matters. Look at martial arts for instance. You can train for years, have all the belts in the world and get jumped one day and get your ass handed to you by some punk. How do you measure the mental side? It can't. I think force on force is the closest thing to measure but no one really knows.
Force on Force is not bad, but I tell my students to get an adrenalie dump. Go sky-diving, bungee jumping, something they are scared of and then have a 3rd party assess your reactions etc. If you can manuveur your way into going on a ride along with some sort of first responder, that helps to. It is not just mental, it is chemcial as well.
Force on Force is not bad, but I tell my students to get an adrenalie dump. Go sky-diving, bungee jumping, something they are scared of and then have a 3rd party assess your reactions etc. If you can manuveur your way into going on a ride along with some sort of first responder, that helps to. It is not just mental, it is chemcial as well.
Hate to say it, but a really good way to train someone to not "freeze" or flee when SHTF is paintball... Having done paintball recreationally and competitively in my youth, it's probably the closest to combat you can get without actually going into real combat.
Mick-Boy
01-29-2013, 02:01
Hate to say it, but a really good way to train someone to not "freeze" or flee when SHTF is paintball... Having done paintball recreationally and competitively in my youth, it's probably the closest to combat you can get without actually going into real combat.
Dude....... No. [Bang]
Hate to say it, but a really good way to train someone to not "freeze" or flee when SHTF is paintball... Having done paintball recreationally and competitively in my youth, it's probably the closest to combat you can get without actually going into real combat.
Wow! Did you EVER leave a FOB? Just stop now Ronin...
Again...you were INTEL?
Wow! Did you EVER leave a FOB? Just stop now Ronin...
Again...you were INTEL?
Yes and yes... You can't replicate real combat outside of actually going to real combat. I understand the potential of MILES gear, but c'mon, average folks, that's not practical. Granted there is no actual way to test or even train away the freeze up factor until SHTF, but from both a civilian and military standpoint, the closest you can safely get is paintball... Sorry, unless you want to loose a few hundred pounds- don't try and jump down my throat, please, you won't fit.
Yes and yes... You can't replicate real combat outside of actually going to real combat. I understand the potential of MILES gear, but c'mon, average folks, that's not practical. Granted there is no actual way to test or even train away the freeze up factor until SHTF, but from both a civilian and military standpoint, the closest you can safely get is paintball... Sorry, unless you want to loose a few hundred pounds- don't try and jump down my throat, please, you won't fit.
So that must be the reason the military, LE, and some civilian companies endorse, use, and train with Sims/UTM converted weapons???
Think first, post less.
Dude....... No. [Bang]
Hmm, my image maker just made me laugh..."Mick vs. Ronin in Paintball Royale" [Pop]
I have played a lot of paintball in my youth.. Been hit more times than I can count. Don't have any scars from paintball..
But I do have two scars (belly and arm) from UTMs. I don't 'fear' paintballs.. I fucking HATE being hit by UTMs.
sniper_tim
01-29-2013, 21:29
Why should I have to prove any level of proficiency to defend myself, whether it be my fists, baseball bat, or a firearm. I realize the trainers on this site do this for a living, however what part about a "shall issue" law is misunderstood. Why fail students, especially if the law doesn't require subjective "proficiency"?
Just a thought,
Tim
Why fail students, especially if the law doesn't require subjective "proficiency"?
Because it is my prerogative to do so. They come to me for my guidance - I don't solicit or force them. They are asking my opinion and I am giving it to them.
I strongly believe that everyone should have training with firearms -- and I also strongly believe it is the governments responsibility to do. But since the gubment has abandoned its responsibility I guess I will have to step it up on my end.
Bailey Guns
01-29-2013, 22:19
I strongly believe that everyone should have training with firearms -- and I also strongly believe it is the governments responsibility to do. But since the gubment has abandoned its responsibility I guess I will have to step it up on my end.
Why do you believe the government has a responsibility to train everyone in the use of firearms?
ETA: And which government entity (ie: federal, state, local) has this responsibility?
Tinelement
01-29-2013, 22:19
If I can hit a man sized target from arms reach to about 10-15 yards I'm happy. More than likely wont be drawing my CCW beyond that distance.
Beyond 10 yards out to 200, man sized with my rifle.
Don't care if I hit an elbow, or wrist, or knee, or gut, or head, or heart. Guess what!? I shot you anywhere in those spots, you are gonna know!!!!!
Why do you believe the government has a responsibility to train everyone in the use of firearms?
ETA: And which government entity (ie: federal, state, local) has this responsibility?
Based on my interpretation of the 'well regulated' part of the 2A (and the Militia Act of 1792 expressly states it) the Federal Gubment has the responsibility to train everyone in the use of firearms. How the Fed chooses to delegate that responsibility is debatable (e.g. the use of the CMP).
..and no the Gubments failure to train does not sever the right of the People to be armed. Quite the contrary.
trlcavscout
01-29-2013, 22:52
In clark county NV we had to qualify with each weapon we wanted to carry, many wouldnt like it but it keeps jim bob (no relation to Jim) from qualifying with a full size nine and carrying a sub-compact .50. I was lucky enough to do my original ccw course with front site (not that I like them) but we did a very good 8 hour course that covered everything from safety to laws to holster selection, range qual time, then sims on a shoot house. Multiple pop up targets in doors and windows ranging from pysho chain saw man to neighbor tom with his drill. Plus the class was free, but I would pay good money for that stuff. The qual there was very similar to the LE shooting qual which for some is very tough.
Bailey Guns
01-29-2013, 23:31
Based on my interpretation of the 'well regulated' part of the 2A (and the Militia Act of 1792 expressly states it) the Federal Gubment has the responsibility to train everyone in the use of firearms. How the Fed chooses to delegate that responsibility is debatable (e.g. the use of the CMP).
..and no the Gubments failure to train does not sever the right of the People to be armed. Quite the contrary.
We seem to have very different views on this. I always understood the Militia Act of 1792 stated exactly the opposite. I also thought the Militia Act of 1792 (and subsequent Militia Acts) were all superseded by the Militia Act of 1903.
sniper_tim
01-29-2013, 23:40
Because it is my prerogative to do so. They come to me for my guidance - I don't solicit or force them. They are asking my opinion and I am giving it to them.
So, your students know prior to attending/paying for your training that they may not qualify for a CCW permit based on on your criteria? Do you offer your students free re-try's, or re-tests to execute their constitutional rights?
I strongly believe that everyone should have training with firearms -- and I also strongly believe it is the governments responsibility to do. But since the gubment has abandoned its responsibility I guess I will have to step it up on my end.
I agree with training 100%, also think you should get firearms training in elementary and high school just as drivers-ed should be re-instated in high school. I don't think it should be REQUIRED, especially when concerning my God given right to defend myself. Could you imagine putting a women in prison for killing a man who was raping her because she didn't have "proficient training"? OP asked the question, what are "proficient pistol standards for self defense". My answer, NONE. Totally agree that if you want to carry, you should train with your pistol and know how to use it.
Cheers,
Tim
I don't believe that the OP, or anyone actually, is addressing this question with ANY relation to government mandated requirements. This is an opinion poll asking the simple question of "What criteria do YOU believe qualifies YOU as proficient?"
Do you offer your students free re-try's, or re-tests to execute their constitutional rights?
Your missing the point. I don't think that people require a license from the gubment to carry their arms or defend themselves. I don't think that is what the purpose of the OP's question was either.
If they want to pass MY class they need to perform to the standards I have set - openly and honestly shared. Getting some certificate from me so they can go get a piece of paper from the gubment is not my concern. My concern is teaching people how to work with an use firearms safely and effectively -- at whatever level they want to achieve (up to my ability to teach).
I agree with training 100%, also think you should get firearms training in elementary and high school just as drivers-ed should be re-instated in high school. I don't think it should be REQUIRED, especially when concerning my God given right to defend myself.
The two are separate functions. Lack of training doesn't bar your right to defend yourself. See above.
We seem to have very different views on this. I always understood the Militia Act of 1792 stated exactly the opposite. I also thought the Militia Act of 1792 (and subsequent Militia Acts) were all superseded by the Militia Act of 1903.
" It shall be the duty of the Commanding Officer as every muster, whether by battalion, regiment, or single company, to cause the militia to be exercised and trained, agreeably to the said rules of said discipline."
My views never seem to match up with the views of others. I'm used to it. We can 'argue' it over beer sometime. ;)
Bailey Guns
01-30-2013, 00:01
Not looking to argue...just to learn.
rustycrusty
02-01-2013, 03:56
So... That was fun. Thank you for brightening up the conversation a bit, Ronin13. You always get people's attention...
Irving is right. I want to hear instructors qualifications for their students and I want to hear personal qualifications for yourselves.
Am I the only one here that wouldn't carry until being able to pass some self set standard (mine in the form of a drill)?
adressing the comment made about passing everyone all the time. Sorry- I disagree as strongly as one possibly can. Low standards drive low performance. No standards? Wow... How about an ND on the range- (a calm controlled environment) you still going to risk your ass and sign that dumbass' card? I am not saying that there should be any regulation from any government body.
What I am saying is I hope we all have some standards for ourselves- tests of our ability.
We take the time to speak frequently on firearm use- do we also take the time to continue to learn and keep pushing for higher standards of performance?
I like the competitive spirit I see at the Pistol-Training site. I'd like to see something similar on here (as it is local, and among a familiar group) and I am looking for a starting place. My questions were to drive a little debate. What is good for drills? Not what drills are good. Are there any benchmarks for what you consider poor, good, and great performance on some basic drills?
rustycrusty
02-01-2013, 04:08
I guess I will just throw out the one drill that I used as my starting point for carry just to get the conversation going where I wanted it to originally.
My personal standard which I have long surpassed, but was a high achievement for myself at the time-
Two 8" plates about 6' apart and 10yds away. My draw at the time was a very humbling 2.2sec. My goal was to be able to draw and engage both targets with 2 shots in under 6sec. I had to do it clean- no misses
That drill was just what seemed right- no reason other than it was impossible for me at the time. I set it as my standard and did not peruse a ccw until I achieved that.
Any similar stories? Any new goals on drills?
Tinilement: time to your standards? Are shots missed allowed?
Mick-Boy
02-01-2013, 06:24
In general I believe that your weapons handling and marksmanship should be such that you can pass the requisite course of fire for any unit/department/company cold. They just aren't that hard.
Like I said on the first page, I wouldn't recommend shooting the same course of fire over and over because it will become a range trick. Use different courses of fire to expose weaknesses in your weapons handling and marksmanship then train to correct those weaknesses.
I have come a long way with my shooting, enough to know that I don't feel comfortable carrying my Keltec P11. If I can't hit a bowling pin at 10 yards using the whole magazine, then I don't feel comfortable at ALL with that gun. This was not a conscious standard or anything, I just couldn't hit that pin with that gun. It had even more of an impact on my confidence when I could lay down pins at 4x the distance with my other two guns.
I have come a long way with my shooting, enough to know that I don't feel comfortable carrying my Keltec P11. If I can't hit a bowling pin at 10 yards using the whole magazine, then I don't feel comfortable at ALL with that gun. This was not a conscious standard or anything, I just couldn't hit that pin with that gun. It had even more of an impact on my confidence when I could lay down pins at 4x the distance with my other two guns.
Never been a Keltec fan, so thanks for reinforcing my beliefs Irving. [Beer] I don't want to start a fight, could be something wrong with my Glock, but I'm way more accurate with my Sig than my Glock- thus I put Sig higher on the totem pole- IMHO.
I think the goal is constant improvement. Start with something like the FAST drill, when you feel comfortable manipulating through reloads, try the federal air marshal qual, when that feels good try the 10.8 drills. Like Mick stated you aren't focusing on one drill exclusively until you "have it" but mixing it up to actually learn the skills.
Is there a standard I set for myself to be able to achieve before I started carrying? No. But I knew damn well where my abilities were. I knew that I couldn't draw and fire accurately faster than about 2 seconds, which means there was no way I was going to get in an old west, quick draw style shootout. (I still really hope not to, but now I like my chances a little more.)
I think the serious self assessment before deciding to carry should be something like:
1. Can I handle a gun without shooting myself or someone else?
2. If I did need to use a gun would I be able to hit what I want to rather than the little old lady in the background?
3. Under what circumstances am I ok (morally and legally) killing someone?
If you don't know enough to start answering these questions, find someone reputable with whom to train. If you don't know the holes in your game and where you need to improve, shoot with someone better than you (preferably someone who carries a gun for a living and takes it seriously). Past that, get to the range and start running through drills that are a little above your head.
rustycrusty
02-01-2013, 18:10
Dan512- well said. I am a big fan of the FAST drill. Looking up the fed Air Marshal qual.
ronin13- the guns mechanical accuracy is identical for all defensive purposes. User preference/error. As for the keltec, and all of the micro carry pieces- I try and stay away from them whenever possible. The mechanics of firing them are difficult to learn and keep consistent.
Mick-Boy
02-02-2013, 00:15
Dan512- well said. I am a big fan of the FAST drill. Looking up the fed Air Marshal qual.
Page 15 of the drills I posted on page one of this thread. "Pre-9/11 FAM Qualification".
NGCSUGrad09
02-04-2013, 22:19
For a general, all around skill set that I like to use as a gauge is the IDPA classifier. While it has been a few years since I've shot IDPA, it's a decent mix of close and fast shots, movement, strong hand shooting and some accuracy work. If you can shoot an Expert or Master time on it cold, you've got a pretty solid set of basic skills that you can call upon when needed for the average person. While I have other drills that I like to practice and evaluate myself with, if I had to pick one COF to evaluate somebody with and/or give as a practice session, it's the classifier COF.
I believe in holding yourself personally accountable for all of your actions, not just with firearms... but especially with firearms. As I like to tell people, making the decision to carry a firearm for defensive use is not a fad, cool thing to do or something that should be taken lightly. It takes dedication, discipline, regular practice and competence.
Bailey Guns
02-05-2013, 07:18
I'm a believer that most people (typical citizen that gets a permit) can benefit far more from survival/combat mindset training than they will actual marksmanship training. Using a gun really isn't hard. Developing the willingness to take another life at close range is far more difficult, in my opinion.
I'm not discounting practicing/developing shooting skills...just saying there's more to it than actual gun-handling.
Wildboarem
02-05-2013, 18:44
"Because it is my prerogative to do so. They come to me for my guidance - I don't solicit or force them. They are asking my opinion and I am giving it to them" AssMoto do you put this on your website or inform your students first? People actually pay you money to not qualify? Sounds like an instructor problem not a student problem, but like you said it's your prerogative.
I personally pass every person that finishes my class. If I can't teach someone basic marksmanship I need to find a new career. Any student that can follow the 3 safety rules (yes I said 3) will end up with a certificate in my class. Do I wish every Citizen would continue to train and improve their skill set? Absolutely. Am I going to make students try to achieve some arbitrary qual. that has no correlation to actually ensuring any kind of outcome in a Gunfight? Nope.
Your attitude
Clint,
If you are going to start off here by just insutling others and name calling, I suggest you go elsewhere. Your resume is not heavy enough to be an asshole to others.
Wildboarem
02-05-2013, 20:58
Coloccw,
Maybe I came off a little insulting, for that I apologize asomtoa. Now about my resume, what resume would you be referring too? MY post count? Years of shooting? Shooting profiency? What would make my resume as heavy as yours? And do I know you? You seem to know me, call me out by name yet don't identify yourself and I'm the asshole. I commented on a post that I strongly disagree with. Did I add a dig in there? Yes I did. Maybe I shouldn't have but it isn't anything I wouldn't say to the person face to face.
Mick-Boy
02-06-2013, 01:16
Coloccw,
. Now about my resume, what resume would you be referring too? MY post count? Years of shooting? Shooting profiency? What would make my resume as heavy as yours? And do I know you? You seem to know me, call me out by name yet don't identify yourself and I'm the asshole.
My guess is that he clicked the link in your signature line...
rustycrusty
02-06-2013, 05:12
Lol. And the resume grows. I guess I am trying to be an asshole there. I am a third party watching a train wreck and hoping there are casualties.
Wildboarem- I see your point, I think I agree with your view that gun ownership is a right, and you want to pass people in your classes. I also see that there will be some failures in some coarses despite the skill of the instructor. Some people just suck and don't listen. You can't make everyone listen. When you tell them how to do something the right way, they don't have to do what you say. If they knowingly disobey I would call that a failure.
You advocate very basic marksmanship and safety. The large majority of other instructors on here advocate more in depth intruction on and measurement of pistol use. There are markets for both types of instruction.
just reading through this thread has made me consider taking their classes and has made me decided on avoiding your courses. You are new here. Perhaps this is not the entry you want to be making. Your customers from this site can and probobly will read a large portion of your posts before they decide to attend your classes.
Wildboarem
02-06-2013, 07:06
Rusty I understand what your saying to a point. This question I thought I was answering was on minimum proficiency in a CCW class. A lot of instructors don't even require any type of range time. A lot do, what I'm saying is why would I take a possible new shooter, who may be already intimidated by firearms, and tell them they need to pass some qualification. I personally think it's the wrong approach, especially with new shooters, which 50% of our CCW students are.
As far being new here so I should keep my mouth shut, that ain't happening. Want to boot me, fine. I may be new here but I ain't new.
There is are tons of choices out there for instruction, different strokes for different folks.
The previous exchange is interesting. Some people have no understanding that with rights, comes responsibility, so they will teach the McDonalds generation how to have those rights and care not for their common man. Others won't stoop and understand the great responsibility that comes with carrying lethal force on their hip everyday. They don't want to teach the McDonalds approach for a few bucks, but teach with some integrity knowing that their students are well prepared.
Gravy Sandwich
02-06-2013, 08:54
1)What do you consider being 'proficient' with a pistol to entail? (What do you measure?)
2)What is 'good enough' performance in the use of a pistol to confidently carry? (What is the passing grade for chosen metrics?)
3)What do you use (if any) to measure your skill level? (1drill? Multiple drills?)
Short and specific please. I am looking for any consensus.
1) Proficiency I expect of others include safe manipulations and the ability to hit what you are aiming at. Every shooter should know the limitations of their skills and equipment and act accordingly. Minimum proficiency for me includes a sub 1.5 second draw to 8" plate at 7 yards from concealment, and the ability to consistently hit a C-zone at 25 yards with whatever I'm carrying. I also prefer to carry something I can comfortably run a FAST with in less than 6.0 seconds, but sometimes an LCP or PF9 is all I can carry.
2) For the general population, I think "good enough" is the ability to safely draw and consistently hit a C-zone at 5 yards with no time limit. I've seen several brand new shooters do this on their first trip to the range. Personally, I'm more concerned with the general population's muzzle control and use of safe carry methods than their shooting proficiency.
3) The benchmarks I use most frequently to measure my skills are FAST, the IDPA Classifier and Steel Challenge. El Prez, the Bill Drill and the old Air Marshall Qual are also good performance drills. We recently ran the Air Marshall Qualifier as a Competition Night at BluCore, and only 1/3 of the group of very competent shooters had passing scores. I keep a log of my scores on all drills to chart my progress and evaluate new equipment.
Mick-Boy
02-06-2013, 09:18
I've never made a dime teaching anyone who wasn't enroute to an active(ish) war zone. You guys that earn your living (or extra money for ammo and beer) teaching civilians, good on you. The more people we, as a community, can get exposed to responsible self defense the better off we're all going to be. That being said, if I was going to put my name on someone (IE: sign their certificate), I'd want to make damn sure they could demonstrate safe gun handling and judicious marksmanship. But that's a personal choice and you should run your business as you see fit.
There is not magic answer here. There are no keys to the kingdom. The most elite units in the world have guys die in gun fights.
Back on Page 5 dan512 posted this.
I think the serious self assessment before deciding to carry should be something like:
1. Can I handle a gun without shooting myself or someone else?
2. If I did need to use a gun would I be able to hit what I want to rather than the little old lady in the background?
3. Under what circumstances am I ok (morally and legally) killing someone?
If you don't know enough to start answering these questions, find someone reputable with whom to train. If you don't know the holes in your game and where you need to improve, shoot with someone better than you (preferably someone who carries a gun for a living and takes it seriously). Past that, get to the range and start running through drills that are a little above your head.
My hierarchy would be
-Mindset ("I do not kill with my gun; he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart.”)
-Safe gun handling (Sweeping yourself or friendlies is NOT ok. It's only a couple of pounds of pressure away from shooting yourself or a friendly).
-Marksmanship (You can never call a bullet back. Once it leaves your muzzle you own it and everything that it does. Be ready to own everything in your magazines.)
Drills, quals, competition and other organized courses of fire are useful in that they can expose weaknesses in our gun handling and marksmanship. The sad reality it that when things get loud, good gun handling and marksmanship might not be enough to get the job done. The bad guys get a vote and sometimes things don't work out for the good guys. So train in the basics and develop the mindset that no one is going to take you down for free. And never, ever accept "good enough".
It is the right and responsibility of instructors to establish what they feel as a standard for any particular course. If you do not hold students accountable to a standard, then you are diminishing your product and hurting the students. Diploma factories accomplish nothing. Since different instructors set different standards, it becomes a basis to compare courses. Taking a CCW course that passes everybody and having a certificate from Ron Avery, are two different and compareable certificates for the same endstate. Just as a diploma from Front Range Community College and one from an ivy league school are different and quite able to describe the demonstrateed skills of the owner. I wouldn't send my kids to any school that doesn't test the student's skills and was afraid to tell students if their performance is sub standard. If there is no risk in failing a course, then there is no reason to try, regardless of how the instructor performs.
It is the responsibility of the person carrying the firearm to determine what level of proficiency they are comfortable with. Some will be pleased with hitting a "c zone" at whatever distance, others will never stop trying to improve. Of course, we all prefer the latter however that is not always possible for any number of reasons (time, financial constraints, lack of training recources, etc...). Every time we carry a firearm, we are saying to ourselves and everyone else that we feel that we are competent enough AT THAT CURRENT TIME for whatever threat we may expect. However, those threats can be more than expected and we are unprepared and undertrained, sometimes with distasterous results. You determine to what extent you want to be proficient, not an instructor.
do you put this on your website or inform your students first? People actually pay you money to not qualify? Sounds like an instructor problem not a student problem, but like you said it's your prerogative.
I personally pass every person that finishes my class. If I can't teach someone basic marksmanship I need to find a new career. Any student that can follow the 3 safety rules (yes I said 3) will end up with a certificate in my class. Do I wish every Citizen would continue to train and improve their skill set? Absolutely. Am I going to make students try to achieve some arbitrary qual. that has no correlation to actually ensuring any kind of outcome in a Gunfight? Nope.
Man, I wish college had standards like this. It would have saved me a LOT of time.
Coloccw, well said. I'd say that last sentence pretty much answers the original question.
YammyMonkey
02-18-2013, 00:30
I know I'm late to this thread, but I wanted to expand a little on what coloccw mentioned in the last few sentences. We, as a community, need to understand that not everyone will see a need for addressing as many possible threats as their imagination can concoct. Some people are only concerned about defense within the home, some are only concerned about relatively close range defense of themselves. Some are concerned about anything from in the home to a 3 on 1 in the parking lot stuck between a couple parked vehicles to the active shooter 50 yards away in the mall. The individual needs to make a VALID assessment of when they expect to use their gun and tailor their training to meet that assessment. If Bill the soccer daddy is only willing to get involved when things are relatively short range, then his training is going to vary considerably from someone like a rural Sheriff's Deputy who may need to make a much longer range shot. I'm sure the pucker-factor is pretty severe for those guys when they're rolling up a 1/4 mile driveway on a domestic violence call. Sitting duck anyone?
Figure out what you need to be able to do, then figure out what your weaknesses within that context are and work on them. Unfortunately, there isn't a universal answer.
Unfortunately, there isn't a universal answer.
Couldn't agree more! [Beer]
I had it explained to me pretty well by a retired LEO: Two different scenarios, 100 ways to handle each- Guy robbing a liquor store you're shopping in- he just wants the money, doesn't want to hurt anyone- get the cash and go... Do you draw/shoot? Guy robbing a bank, tells everyone to get on the ground, starts to go around grabbing cell phones, states he will kill if need be... Do you draw/shoot? One may not discover you're armed, one may, what course do you take? Don't answer... every situation is different and one may be a "what if" that's easy to put a blanket universal solution on, but endanger people and yourself more than doing nothing. Knowing when/when not to draw/fire is important, but being able to read the situation and figure out if you need to draw/fire, consequences of drawing/firing, etc. QUICKLY, is also extremely important.
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