View Full Version : SRM Class
There has been interest in doing a more advanced shooting class. Shooting on the move, and shooting in teams of two, so if there are enough people, I will put on a SRM class.
Short-range marksmanship training provides the individual with the ability to quickly and effectively engage targets at ranges less than 50 meters. A person’s ability to successfully identify, discriminate, and engage targets during short-range combat is essential for survival. You shouldn’t attend this class unless you have had a beginners class. It doesn’t have be the class that I run. We will only be quickly going over malfunction drills and confirming your zero, before getting into the fun stuff.
I would like to do this class on the 7th of June, before it gets to hot out. So this is what I have at this point.
Equipment Needed;
-1 AR-15 - This is a short-range marksmanship class centered around the AR-15 rifle.
-1 Pistol - Any working pistol will do.
-Tactical gear - For this class you will need tactical gear to hold your magazines, pistol and other gear. YOU MUST have a sling on your AR-15. Any kind of tactical gear that you like is fine. If you don’t have any, PM me and I may have some you can use for the class.
-Clothing - In this class you will be exposed to hot flying brass, dirt, and what ever the weather can through at us. Therefore there is a dress code. The dress code will be; long pants, shoes (no sandals or open toes), long sleeve shirt, and a hat ( baseball cap is fine). Other things that you may want are; knee and elbow pads, and tactical shooting gloves. Think of what a soldier looks like, you will be doing the same kind of shooting they do. I don’t care if you wear camouflage or not.
-Pistol magazines - You should ensure that your magazines are working. You need enough to fill out your tactical gear.
-AR-15 Magazines - You should ensure that your magazines are working. If you don’t have enough magazines, let me know, and you can use some of mine. You need enough to fill out your tactical gear.
-Ammunition - 800 rounds for the rifle, and 100 rounds for the pistol. You can run any ammo you want. It can be cheapest or hand loads, it does not matter. If it gives you trouble then you will get a lot of training clearing stoppages.
-Earplugs - NO EAR MUFFS! Some ear muffs will not seal right when using an AR15.
-Eye Protection - Again, you will be exposed to hot flying brass.
-Targets - You will need to bring three IPSC type targets, and if you have them, stands for them.
-Black Sharpie pen
-Water
-Lunch
-Optics (Optional, ON SCOPES.)
-Cleaning kit (Optional)
Start Time: 0900 Time will be very important for this class.
Location: South Shoot Site
Training Outline
-Safety Briefing
-Tactical gear overview
-Confirm your zero
-Ready Positions
-Ready-Up Drills
-Turning Drills
-Transition Drills
-Target Discrimination Drills
-SRM Test
-Team Drills (if everything is right)
-AAR
For anyone considering, i can vouch Tim is a great instructor and knows his stuff. We all had a great time last Saturday and learned a lot from him. I'm still recovering from my sunburn though!
I can't confirm if i'm in yet for the 7th. That is the week before i go out of town. The timing is good, but we'll see if funds permit me to shoot that many rounds. If i can't make it in June i'm definitely in for the next round. I'll keep my eye on this thread as the date approaches and will definitely confirm if i'm gonna show. I know this past week you were expecting 10+ and we got 4.
Thanks for doing these classes, it is much appreciated.
I'm definitely up for this and will be there on June 7th.
Did you order your new stock Al?
I wonder if Darla will have her own AR by June [ROFL2]
Did you order your new stock Al?
I wonder if Darla will have her own AR by June [ROFL2]Yep ordered stock and sling. Then I lost the bid on the Sagia 12 I was looking at so I went and ordered a new 16" upper with a rifle length sight on it :D
but we'll see if funds permit me to shoot that many rounds.
I could cut it down to 500 rounds if 800 is to high. I know the money is tight for me right now :-(
OFF TOPIC
Then I lost the bid on the Sagia 12
What did it go for?
I went and ordered a new 16" upper with a rifle length sight on it :D
What one did you get, or are you building it?
I could cut it down to 500 rounds if 800 is to high. I know the money is tight for me right now :-(
That would certainly help, however i don't want to affect the course outline.
We'll see how things look come June. I have a feeling i'll be there. Maybe i can just sit out portions of a few drills just to save some ammo. This sounds like a perfect class to get some quality trigger time behind my Aimpoint! [AR15]
Did you order your new stock Al?
I wonder if Darla will have her own AR by June [ROFL2]
Interesting you should mention that, we should be picking it up this evening
That would certainly help, however i don't want to affect the course outline.
We'll see how things look come June. I have a feeling i'll be there. Maybe i can just sit out portions of a few drills just to save some ammo. This sounds like a perfect class to get some quality trigger time behind my Aimpoint! [AR15]
You need to reload young man....I have to get busy and crank out about 1000 rnds before then or shoot that evil Wolf.
Oh yeah you can count us in for this, just in case that was not obvious. [ROFL1]
Thanks again Tora....
OFF TOPIC
What did it go for?
What one did you get, or are you building it?The Sagia went for $755 which is crazy especially since it is another hundred or two for the conversion I was planning. Rumor has it more will be imported in June so I'll keep an eye out for one closer to $500.
I ordered a complete upper:
CMMG 16” M10R Upper (A3, Semi-Auto Carrier, No Bolt Group Upgrade, Badger Ordnance Gen II Tac-Latch, Extended/Polished Ramps, A2 Post, F Marked Front Sight Base, Round Forward Assist, YHM Light Weight Rifle Length Free Float Four Rail Handguard, YHM Solid Rear Sight YHM-9493S, Phantom Brake 5M2.
If I work enough overtime next week I'll add a eotech, hoping to get a lower this weekend.
I've got to say Saturday helped me decide on a few options and really changed my thoughts on iron sights. My summer plan had been to end up with 3 AR's so I just ended up ordering a bit earlier then I had planned. I was going to wait for the SBR paperwork to come back.
That would certainly help, however i don't want to affect the course outline.
I didn't do a round count per drill like I did for the Begnnier class, so it shouldn't.
Maybe i can just sit out portions of a few drills just to save some ammo. This sounds like a perfect class to get some quality trigger time behind my Aimpoint! [AR15]
That would work also. I'll do a around count and I may just change it.
You need to reload young man....I have to get busy and crank out about 1000 rnds before then or shoot that evil Wolf.
Yeah, i'm hoping I can get together with you so you can show me what reloading is all about. I'm also in an apartment right now, so space is at a premium. If i was single that would be one thing, but convincing the lady a reloading setup in the living room is a "good financial idea" is a whole other story! For now it's evil Wolf for me. I'm 1000 rounds deep without a single malf, so might as well keep shooting it :D
Like i said, good chance i'll be there. I might not shoot as many rounds as the others though.
Oh, and i figured Darla was going to end up with an evil black rifle after Saturday...lol
You know what you're getting?
Yeah, i'm hoping I can get together with you so you can show me what reloading is all about. I'm also in an apartment right now, so space is at a premium. If i was single that would be one thing, but convincing the lady a reloading setup in the living room is a "good financial idea" is a whole other story! For now it's evil Wolf for me. I'm 1000 rounds deep without a single malf, so might as well keep shooting it :D
Like i said, good chance i'll be there. I might not shoot as many rounds as the others though.
Oh, and i figured Darla was going to end up with an evil black rifle after Saturday...lol
You know what you're getting?
Well whenever you want to stop by I can show my set up. You don't have to have a ton of space. I started out with a single stage press mounted to a block of wood. I would drag it out of the closet and use a couple of C-clamps to clamp it to the kitchen table. I used a old towel between the wood and the table to protect the table. Its kinda like EBR disease...There is always more toys you can have to make it faster and easier.
The rifle is kind of a mutt parts gun but a pretty good starter rifle. Bushy lower and a Cav Arms upper. We can change it up to find what she likes and the price was right...I wont get hurt if she decides at some point its not her thing. If she really gets into it the lower is a good base and the upper can be re barreled if needed.
I did a round count, and it's right at about 800. We could drop the team drills and do a hole class on that alone. I'll talk about that on the 7th.
pickenup
05-08-2008, 18:15
You shouldn’t attend this class unless you have had a beginners class.
Could someone just watch?
Could someone just watch?
MudBug more or less watched at the last class, his lady did the shooting (and quite well i might add). I don't see why it would be a problem. Tora obviously has the final word.
800 rounds is a lot, but count me in Tim. I'm going to grab another case of ammo with my stimulus check from good old Uncle Sam, with this course in mind.
However, i don't think gear is in the budget between here and then. If i could barrow, that would be fantastic. I'm not poor like i'm coming off here lol. Me and the lady are ready to purchase a home, i'm going on a week long baseball trip in June and money is just tight right now.
Oh, and Al, you're driving this time. That or i'm squeezing in with Craig and Darla! [ROFL2]
Oh, and Al, you're driving this time. That or i'm squeezing in with Craig and Darla! [ROFL2]
Would you mind riding on the roof rack? [Tooth]Seriously we can fit you in if we pack differently just let us know.
Would you mind riding on the roof rack? [Tooth]Seriously we can fit you in if we pack differently just let us know.
Thanks Craig, much appreciated!
I also realized me and the lady are going to Jerry Seinfeld that Saturday. I might have to dip out early for that. So I might be driving myself afterall. He's in Colorado for 1 day only, and we have tickets to the 9:30 show and i can't miss it!
She gave me a big "ugh" when i told her i was in for the class...she'll get over it! [Luck]
Could someone just watch?
I have another beginners class on 17 may, you can come to that one first ;-)
The hole point of saying that you need to have a beginners class first, is that I wil not have the time to go over that kind of info. We will be doing a quick zero and then moving on to the fun stuff. If you want to just watch I don't have a problem with it, but you will have to be back off the line. If your going to go through the trouble of comming out to the range why don't you just take the class. :-)
However, i don't think gear is in the budget between here and then. If i could barrow, that would be fantastic.
PM sent
Looks like I'm just about set for this. Got my new AR15 put together and planning on zeroing it tomorrow. Got a chest rig in, though I might get a couple more magazines since it holds 8 and 8 is exactly how many I have. Perhaps most importantly I got 1K of rounds in the mail the other day.
I'm really looking forward to this SRM!
scratchy
05-26-2008, 15:01
Wife and I have basic pistol next week. Then I'll let her actually touch her weapons. We should be participating in the June time frame. Yaay.
mightymouse
05-26-2008, 16:53
I'm in for the 7th. I've got the ammo and everything else.
We should be participating in the June time frame. Yaay.
I'm trying to get a head count, so you and your wife will be shooting on the 7th?
Tim,
I got about 150 targets printed up and will bring them with us on the 7th.
Add Darla and I to your list we got her new to her AR sighted in last weekend.
Craig
Ben you going to need a ride?
Ben you going to need a ride?
I think i'm gonna have to sit this one out. We have Jerry Seinfeld tickets for that night at 9:30pm. The last class i don't think i even got home till around 7pm, then i had to clean my weapon, was super tired, and very sun burned. I don't think i would be able to stay awake for the show if i spend all day in the sun! I thought about coming down for just a few hours, but i know if i do that i'll end up there all day.
Tora, if you run this class again, do let me know. I wish i could make it, but with the show that night i just can't make it.
Thanks for the offer Craig. How does Darla like her knew AR? I haven't been shooting since the last class, i need to get out again very soon!
Ben,
You need to get your priorities straight [ROFL1].
Come on down even if you leave early you will learn something. Go home, hose the down your AR with CLP and clean it the next day. It will need to soak that long to loosen up that Evil Wolf Ammo crud. [Tooth]
Well I've got myself and another interested.. question about where to snag targets though. Anyone know a decent place in Denver to get them besides the Flea Market, err.. Gun Show? What about stands? Are we going to have enough?
mightymouse
05-28-2008, 12:13
Well I've got myself and another interested.. question about where to snag targets though. Anyone know a decent place in Denver to get them besides the Flea Market, err.. Gun Show? What about stands? Are we going to have enough?
I have a metric shiatload of targets, IDPA, Edmonton, you name it. No stands tho.
Well lets see what they think we need and I'll buy a fraction of that metric load from ya :)
Well lets see what they think we need and I'll buy a fraction of that metric load from ya :)
Tim had about 6 stands last time out in addition to the 4 of us there who brought our own. I think you guys should be good to go.
For about $5 you can build one as well. Have Home Depot cut the wood and it takes all of 5 minutes to hammer it together.
Ben,
You need to get your priorities straight [ROFL1].
Come on down even if you leave early you will learn something. Go home, hose the down your AR with CLP and clean it the next day. It will need to soak that long to loosen up that Evil Wolf Ammo crud. [Tooth]
I know I know!
We got the tickets awhile back, and i'm a huge Seinfeld fan, can't miss it! The lady is really looking forward to it as well, and i don't want to make it a bad evening because i got home late, and was too tired to enjoy myself.
If i don't go shooting this weekend, i might just come down for a few hours and get as much out of it as i can. I'm hoping Tora can put it on another time this summer, i would be into that for sure.
As for the count goes, probably best to not expect me. If i do show up, it won't be for more than a few hours.
Well I've got myself and another interested.. question about where to snag targets though. Anyone know a decent place in Denver to get them besides the Flea Market, err.. Gun Show? What about stands? Are we going to have enough?Mudbug posted this in another thread and looks like a good place to me.
For Future reference http://www.americantargetcompany.com/ quoted 45 cents a piece for Cardboard IPSC targets when I called today.
IPSC Link http://www.americantargetcompany.com/USPA_IPSC_2_target.asp
1328 South Jason St. Denver, CO 80223, Denver, Colorado 80223
I know I know!
If i don't go shooting this weekend,
I'm planning on heading up to the north site on Saturday morning, not sure of time. Let me know if you want to meet up.
I'm planning on heading up to the north site on Saturday morning, not sure of time. Let me know if you want to meet up.
I am interested. Shoot me a PM of when you're planning on going. I was considering going up on Friday morning, but Saturday also works for me. I need to get some trigger time with my carry weapon as well, i haven't even fired my primary pistol in 2+ months.
mightymouse
05-28-2008, 20:03
Badshot, are you coming from the east side of town? I'd like to caravan with you to the south site, since I've never been there.
jetsiphon
05-29-2008, 08:45
I'd really like to do this, however, I'll be coming back from my long range rifle class that day.
Any possibility of doing another one?
We will have 2 stands with us this time as well.
Any possibility of doing another one?
I don't have internet at home, and I don't get on line much in the summer, so I woun't be up able to anwser questions much. If there are the people for another class then I don't have a problem setting another date. It needs to be soon, or it will be to hot out there with almost no shade.
How about 21 June? Will that work for a secound class?
I know I know!
We got the tickets awhile back, and i'm a huge Seinfeld fan, can't miss it! The lady is really looking forward to it as well, and i don't want to make it a bad evening because i got home late, and was too tired to enjoy myself.
I understand :-( but it will be a long day and a lot of shooting.
I'm hoping Tora can put it on another time this summer, i would be into that for sure.
How's the 21 June sound?
As for the count goes, probably best to not expect me. If i do show up, it won't be for more than a few hours.
If you do show, come for the start. It's better to pull out then to jump in.
jetsiphon
05-29-2008, 14:56
21 June is still too early for me. Oh well, I'll catch it on the next go 'round.
How's the 21 June sound?
If you do show, come for the start. It's better to pull out then to jump in.
Unfortunately (for shooting sake) i will be out of town that Saturday. Pretty much the two Saturday's listed here are about the only two i wouldn't be able to make all year lol. If it's to hot to have it after that, we can always do fall. I just know this time, wear sunscreen because i got burnt pretty bad last time out!
I'm still debating if i want to make the drive down on the 7th. If i do come, it would be in the morning, i wouldn't just show up in the middle like that. Definitely sounds like it's going to be a fun time down there. Hope everyone can make it, Tim puts on a good class.
FYI Marpat, long time member, not much of a poster, will be along but not shooting.. extra range safety perhaps? So my car load is 3, 2 shooters, 1 voyeur..
21 June is still too early for me. Oh well, I'll catch it on the next go 'round.
we can always do fall.
Well... You see that may be a problem. Our uncle sam, may be moving us by then. That is one of the reasons that I have been moving quickly on do these classes. We'll just have to see. If there is another day in June that would be good, Post it, I'm fine with Sundays also.
scratchy
06-01-2008, 20:25
Huh? Closing sites? yet again?
OK back to logistics .. do we have a count on the number of target stands that are already available and an idea of how many more we will need? Kelly TT has a ton of targets that I'm sure we can give him some money for if needed (that's my plan anyway) but what else do we need logistically?
mightymouse
06-02-2008, 11:07
Huh? Closing sites? yet again?
Try and keep up. He's .mil, Army is moving him.
OK back to logistics .. do we have a count on the number of target stands that are already available and an idea of how many more we will need? Kelly TT has a ton of targets that I'm sure we can give him some money for if needed (that's my plan anyway) but what else do we need logistically?
Everyone should have their own targets, as for stands, I would like to have two perperson. One will work, but it will be more fun with two. As it stands we have 8-10 shooters. I have 6 stands, so if you have stands bring them.
I've got some PVC. I'll see what I can macgyver out of it. Should be good for 2 or 3.
XR2 are you the secound shooter riding with Badshot?
XR2 are you the secound shooter riding with Badshot?
Yeah, that's me. Sorry, I shoulda specified.
I may have enough scraps to cobble one more target stand together before Saturday. We will have 2 for sure an maybe 3.
We are toying with the idea of strolling down Friday night and pitching a tent...has anyone camped at the south site? Any issues?
mightymouse
06-02-2008, 20:44
I have no stands at all. :(
Anywhere I can buy them locally before the weekend?
I have no stands at all. :(
Anywhere I can buy them locally before the weekend?
If you have a handsaw, some nails, a hammer, and a tape measure you can make them in 5 minutes for a few bucks. Heck, you don't even need the saw, home depot will cut the wood for you.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs29.htm
First hit on google, nice simple stand, can even use all 1x2's.
mightymouse
06-03-2008, 02:58
Well I was looking for the steel ones, but I can knock out a few wood ones I suppose. :)
I dropped by Lowes and made this for around 5 bucks in about 20 minutes. I'll have 4 by Saturday.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3087/2548260928_fceae76d45_m.jpg
mightymouse
06-03-2008, 13:55
http://www.ttellc.net/misc/targetw.jpg
I'm GTG. :)
http://www.ttellc.net/misc/targetw.jpg
I'm GTG. :)
My house is not built that well....I have target stand envy
mightymouse
06-03-2008, 15:57
My house is not built that well....I have target stand envy
LOL it never occurred to me to make them from wood. I suck at welding, but I can run a saw. :)
Hell Kelly, might have to have you build a few for me :)
mightymouse
06-04-2008, 09:59
Hell Kelly, might have to have you build a few for me :)
Ok, I need more 3" deck screws. Tell me when and come over and we'll knock out a few.
It'll have to be after next pay day bro .. we'll talk this weekend.
mightymouse
06-05-2008, 13:46
It'll have to be after next pay day bro .. we'll talk this weekend.
I'll just make 2 more. Pay me when you get the funds.
I just took stock and I have 75 Edmond, OK PD targets:
(25 each)
http://www.letargets.com/images/epd2006-a.jpg
http://www.letargets.com/images/epd2006-b.jpg
http://www.letargets.com/images/epd2006-c.jpg
And about 65 IPSC and 25 or so DEA DOT. That cover us? ;)
Well it's that time. The weather looks good. I don't have a grill this time, ran out of gas, so I'll see you all there at 0900.
This was a great time! Really enjoyed the other participants and want to throw a special thanks to Tora and MarPat for the work they did without putting rounds down range.
--EDIT--- Photos removed
Al, dude.. you get my vote for the most improved student of the day! Thanks again Tora for an excellent class and training opportunity!!!!
And for those who decided not to take advantage of this very professional training.. guys, you missed some seriously great movement training!
Tora, come up to Denver, bring the kiddos (thanks to them for the help as well) and grub and beer is on me!
PS - Token appearance by Marlin, sans puppy/mascot! But thanks for showing up anyway.
GOOD STUFF! Thanks for posting the pics.
Wish i could have made it fellas. Craig, what was with the jams on that last video clip (pistol)! How did the new rifle work out Al?
Wish i could have made it. For what it's worth, Jerry Seinfeld was AMAZING. It was probably the best 2 hours of entertainment i have ever seen! I wish i could have made it, but i would have been even more upset if i missed Seinfeld!
Tim, are you still thinking about running it again? Besides next week (out of town 14th-21st) i'm available.
I'd like to send out my thanks to Tora as well. Great guy to work with, very competent and a great teaching style. This course was well worth the time.
Thanks to all who attended, it was nice to meet you.
I guess I should have been paying attention to the forum! This is exactly what I need. With only 100 rounds down the pipe on my rifle, I need training. Oh well, perhaps I will catch it if their is a next time......
Jeff
I'd like to send out my thanks to Tora as well. Great guy to work with, very competent and a great teaching style. This course was well worth the time.
Thanks to all who attended, it was nice to meet you.
I agree ...Thanks Tora! It was very worthwhile. [Beer]
The brass I collected yesterday I will tumble, sort and return if wanted.
Kelly I know yours was marked CJ and Al yours was Speer...If anyone else wanted their brass back just let me know the headstamp and we will make arrangements to get it back to you.
GOOD STUFF! Thanks for posting the pics.
Wish i could have made it fellas. Craig, what was with the jams on that last video clip (pistol)! How did the new rifle work out Al?
Wish i could have made it. For what it's worth, Jerry Seinfeld was AMAZING. It was probably the best 2 hours of entertainment i have ever seen! I wish i could have made it, but i would have been even more upset if i missed Seinfeld!
Tim, are you still thinking about running it again? Besides next week (out of town 14th-21st) i'm available.
I need to polish the feed ramp. That pistol only has a couple of hundred rounds through it. It is an alloy frame that is coated in some sort of epoxy'ish substance instead of bluing and its starting to chip off the feed ramp.
All I can do is second what everyone else has said. Thanks to Tora for setting it up and doing an excellent job. It was an outstanding day! [Beer]
How did the new rifle work out Al? The new rifle isn't running right just yet. Seems to be related to the lower since even my old 20" upper didn't run 100% reliable on it. I'm going to have to put some time working with it with both rifles.
As far as the class it was great. Once again Tim has been a great instructor and I learned quite a bit.
It was also great to meet more people from here since I normally go up to the North site.
Can anyone else bring up BadShots picture link? I get a server error when I try and get to the site...[Rant1]
Can anyone else bring up BadShots picture link? I get a server error when I try and get to the site...[Rant1] Something is flaky with google, yesterday I went to show it to a friend and got a 500 internal server error, but this morning it worked for me again.
If anyone wants to send me the original pictures and videos I can host them off of my domain.
Al, what I have from MarPat, pics and vid runs about 450mb, and I have XR2's stuff too .. not sure how big that is, but it's pics and some short vids. Still need get get KellyTTE to throw us a link to both those training docs and his vids and pics.
If you'll throw me an FTP link via IM I'll transfer all of it up when I get home tonight.
mightymouse
06-09-2008, 11:43
Al, what I have from MarPat, pics and vid runs about 450mb, and I have XR2's stuff too .. not sure how big that is, but it's pics and some short vids. Still need get get KellyTTE to throw us a link to both those training docs and his vids and pics.
If you'll throw me an FTP link via IM I'll transfer all of it up when I get home tonight.
I'm working on my stuff now. I'll get it up ASAP.
Thankyou for the kind words, everyone. For those you would like to do this class, give me a date, and we'll see if we can get to go.
mightymouse
06-09-2008, 22:28
Tora is good people. If you have the chance. Take this class. I didn't get as many 'good' pictures as I had hoped. A lot of them didn't turn out well (wind/glare/timing/whatever), but there are a few.
http://www.ttellc.net/misc/srm/srm1s.jpg
http://www.ttellc.net/misc/srm/srm2s.jpg
http://www.ttellc.net/misc/srm/srm3s.jpg
http://www.ttellc.net/misc/srm/srm4s.jpg
http://www.ttellc.net/misc/srm/srm5s.jpg
http://www.ttellc.net/misc/srm/srm6s.jpg
http://www.ttellc.net/misc/srm/srm7s.jpg
http://www.ttellc.net/misc/srm/srm8s.jpg
http://www.ttellc.net/misc/srm/srm9s.jpg
http://www.ttellc.net/misc/srm/srm10s.jpg
I have all the brass I got decapped and polished, but not sorted yet. We need a list of who wants their brass back. :)
mightymouse
06-09-2008, 22:34
http://www.youtube.com/user/TTEVAL
A little movie I was able to put together from what I had. Should be up in a bit (still processing). Time for bed for me.
My brass was all brand new Winchester
Al was shooting Speer
Kelly was shooting a surplus C J head stamp
Al,
The last of the video is uploading to the FTP you gave me now. You should have all of it by 1900 tonight. Let us know where we can all see it.
Thanks..
Also waiting on more info for the "Jungle Run" and "Shoot House" stuff we discussed at the end of the day..
mightymouse
06-12-2008, 18:42
new qual below...
For those of you who read the handout I gave you at the shoot. What did you think of it? Did it read well? Was the information worth reading? Was it good, or do you think I should be voted the village idiot?
Tim,
It was a good start but like any short document on the subject it just started to scratch the surface. It provides enough food for thought to start someone down the right path in the search for more information.
Couple of miss-spellings but good job overall.
Craig
mightymouse
06-15-2008, 20:28
This is the current NM DPS Pistol Shoot On The Move Qual:
#1: 10yd Line Standing - 2rnds COM x3 (3 seconds each)
#2: 7 to the 3 - Failure drill - x2 (4 seconds each)
#3: 15 to the 10 - 2rds COM - 3x (3 second each)
#4: 10 to the 2 - Reload drill - 2x (7 seconds each)
#5: 7 to the 3 - 1rd to the head - 4x (3 seconds each)
#6: 7 to the 3 - Strong hand only - 2rds COM 3x (3 seconds each)
#7: 7 to the 3 - Weak hand only 2 times (3 seconds each)
VNgunfighter
06-19-2008, 20:13
NICE video...................I especially like the movement drill with the shooters covering 2 other students not once but twice...............and also the instructor.
I would be embarassed to have this video posted.
mightymouse
06-19-2008, 21:17
Confusion dealt with. Gotcha.
Zak Smith
06-20-2008, 11:12
NICE video...................I especially like the movement drill with the shooters covering 2 other students not once but twice...............and also the instructor.
I would be embarassed to have this video posted.
I rechecked the MY SRM video twice and can find nothing resembling what you're referring to. The closest thing is at 1:58 as Badshot is reloading, it looks like he sweeps my back, but in reality, he was pointing off to our two o'clock.
If you weren't there, you might not have the complete story.
Kelly, he's not referring to your video. He's talking about the ones in Chris' Picasa account. And the video evidence does tell enough of a story, in this case. (I do agree that your video on Youtube does not show any sweeping.)
Look at Chris' Picasa album, #36 (as of this time/date). It is one of the team shooting videos. There is clear sweeping of the other two shooters and/or the RO (instructor) and/or the videographer at offsets 0:16-0:19, 0:42, and probably at 0:58 (the last one is hard to tell).
I also watched all the other videos in his album from #36 onward. I noticed a pattern of sloppy gun handling: not safety violations, but poor skills and some other bad habits. Things like:
* not knowing what gun to be shooting (I saw a guy try to transition back to his rifle, get confused, and then go back to his malf'd pistol)
* a ton of poor technique doing malf clearing and reloads, and administrative tasks
* persistent reloading "down low" in possibly the most awkward position possible
* a lot of the "partner" in the team drills looking at the ground (are ants attacking you? snakes?)
The team that had their safety violations caught on video #36 had consistently poor gun-handling skills in the videos. Everything is based on being able to run your guns properly, correctly, efficiently, and safely-- there is little value in complicating the tasks by adding in the cool-guy team drills when a shooter doesn't even have his basics down. Furthermore, a shooter needs to have a mastery of muzzle control and "dynamic range safety" before doing a bunch of team drills. Otherwise you get video #36.
VNgunfighter is right, they should be embarrassed to have that video posted.
Constructive criticism is always good. I learned a great deal that day as well as from video review. Perhaps one day when I have attained your level of mastery, I can start working on my waspish airs of superiority to add to critiques, too.
Heh, snakes and ants. A born teacher.
I'm just sayin'.
Honestly, I've learned a good deal from the class and the video and pictures. I appreciate constructive criticism but snide commentary takes the constructive portions out of the criticism. I have had several discussions about both the mechanics of certain steps and the safety issues with several folks who attended and other 3rd parties. Again, I've learned a lot. Isn't that the point of these efforts?
VN .. dude, you make a point, but I don't care if you'd be embarrassed. The comment was unwarranted, you lose any value as a "contributor" with the snide comment and given that you failed to attend, you failed to catch the rest of what was covered in and after the class.
Zak .. I was following and agreeing with you right up until you to failed to remain constructive.
But hey what do I know..
I have not looked at the video time lines mentioned as of yet but would almost bet I am one of the offenders in at least one case.
Regardless, there was nothing constructive about any of the comments made in the posts. Great way to teach guys, sit back and finger point... I apologize to those superior beings that were born with all of these skills.
I am not perfect, I know this, that is why I was there I am trying to learn. Thanks for the support[Kick3] How about a little credit for that.
Zak I dont know you and at this point don't care to. You should be above the finger pointing as a Mod but your right in the middle of it.
Thanks to Torra for stepping up trying to tech the unworthy a thing or two.
--------------------------------------------
Edited to add....I watched the time line and it does not appear that I am one of the ones being called out in #36 however my assessment of their posts stands.
Also which Video and time point was this at? (* not knowing what gun to be shooting (I saw a guy try to transition back to his rifle, get confused, and then go back to his malf'd pistol))
I have watched 36 on and did not notice it.
--------------------------------------
Further Edited to add...
If the malfunction clearing your referring to is the .45 in the last video, That was me and seeing as how I was not in immediate danger from the hoard of rampaging cardboard men. I was also looking to trying and figure out why it was jamming instead of just clearing the jam and going on with things.
mightymouse
06-20-2008, 18:57
This Sunday, about noon til I get tired of it, I'll be up in the Brighton area shooting some video for a target system on some private land.
Anyone that wants to work on transitions, reloads, stack movement, basics of any sort is welcome to tag along and practice. I have plenty of blue guns and other practice materials to safely be coached with.
Lemme know.
I'm way too busy to participate, but really appreciate that this has been offered by Tora. [Beer]
If folks in the videos don't have everything sorted out, it just points out to me the importance and value of what's being offered. "Where you're at is where you start," and all that.
Hope y'all have great weekends. I just got "The Steel Helmet" from Netflix and am headed off to watch it -- as soon as my youngest is done torturing me with this exercise program called "Legendary Abs."
(sigh) Enough procrastinating. Better go get the burn on now.
Kelly, give me a ring, I might be game for that trip, and I'll talk with XR2 and Marpat as well.
Zak Smith
06-20-2008, 21:03
Hey, I guess it's easy to call criticism "non-constructive criticism" when you don't like it. The points I mentioned are about facts anyone watching the video can observe for themselves, and personal attacks are totally absent from my post. I'm not going to write ten pages of critique and "How-To" corrections for those criticisms-- that's what a good class ought to teach.
I don't blame anyone for having poor technique unless they've had an opportunity to learn and chose not to. If an instructor made a new driver's ed student attempt to merge onto the freeway at 75 mph before he taught her how to change lanes on a city street, Iwouldn't blame the student for doing it poorly-- likewise, if an accident happened, the brunt of the blame would fall to the instructor for failing to ensure the student mastered the requisite basics before trying a more advanced and dangerous task. However, there is one difference in this case-- every gun owner should know about muzzle safety.
Maybe severe corrective action was taken after the drill where everyone was swept 3x. All we can tell from the video is that three or four people were swept multiple times and no one said anything on camera or stopped the drill for a "learning opportunity."
Before you get all butt hurt, try taking a minute to figure out if the criticisms were both aimed at you and were somehow incorrect.
Either training matters or it's all a game of bullet golf. If it's the former, then it matters to do it right and it's too serious to do poorly.
Zak... You are right muzzle safety is VERY important. It was addressed several times during the class, both to the class and to individuals. #36 is deceiving, being the one standing right there I can tell you that the muzzles were pointed at the ground when they turned. If you look at the shadows, you will see that the weapons are next to their legs when they turn. The camera man…well… I should not have allowed them to move next to the line. That is on me, it will never happen again. As to doing drills like this… it was pushing it, most of the shooters in this class had never shot or reloaded on the move before. I wasn’t going to do them at all, but we all talked about it and everyone wanted to, so we did.
Honestly, there is no value in continuing this discussion with you Zak. I do take offense to your attitude and holier than thou presentation. You are out of your lane due to a distinct lack of information, a blatant failure to remain constructive in what could have been good advice and I'm not going to even touch the load of crap written above.
I'll ask that you keep your opinions to yourself, because you've already stated you have no intention of providing value to this discussion. A discussion which, might have been more helpful, but now most likely is over.
Zak Smith
06-21-2008, 16:23
I guess it's easier to call what I write a "load of crap" than to refute or agree with it. My style is reason. Anyone who pays attention knows that.
Well when you condescend and stop being constructive e.g. pass judgement out of your lane, yeah, it's a load of crap. Zak, I'd rather not getting into a pissing match, but you're out of line. If you can't understand what a constructive criticism is, then I'll be happy to enlighten you. In the mean time, you really need to back the hell off and get an impartial view.
There are issues with what is in the video's .. those of us who have discussed them are very able to identify them and discuss what the remedies are, your condescensions is what I find offensive. But if a pissing match is what you want I am more than happy to accommodate. When the hell was the last time someone shot at you? When did you serve your country? When did you take fire? Oh wait.. f**kin' never.. gun games (3gun, IPSC) are all well and good, but until you've been under fire you really need to STFU and get back in your lane.
Zak Smith
06-21-2008, 17:36
My point in entering this thread in the first place was to back-up VNgunfighter since he was spot-on in identifying safety problems with the shooters and/or training, and Kelly was ready to dismiss it out of hand. Out of my lane? I am what I am, and I know how to run a pistol and carbine. I ID'd bad technique in the video which contradicts lessons from my training experience. Even you aren't defending it.
All my comments here are reasoned statements about technique and training progression, not personal attacks. In fact, you are the one who is resorting to cop-outs and ad hominem attack in an attempt to discredit me.
It is telling that you haven't disagreed with any point I've said, other than you don't like my delivery. Hey, I'd rather be blunt and to the point, while not making it personal, than pussyfoot around and make sure someone has great self esteem.
You want to keep slinging personal attacks? Go for it-- it just discredits you.
mightymouse
06-21-2008, 17:52
Ah yes, the tried and true, but nonetheless tired 'I just wanted to be blunt.'.
Moving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide lubrication where people rub together. Often the very young, the untraveled, the naive, the unsophisticated deplore these formalities as "empty," "meaningless," or "dishonest," and scorn to use them. No matter how "pure" their motives, they thereby throw sand into machinery that does not work too well at best. - Robert A. Heinlein
Sometimes, if you want to be a 'good teacher', and not just a 'sage on a stage' (hey look at me) a bit of tact can go a long way.
Just my dos centavos.
Zak Smith
06-21-2008, 19:03
Perhaps so, Kelly. Conversely, however, part of mindset is being able to take valid criticism and incorporate it, not resist it because it hurts one's feelings for whatever reason. If some relatively mild sarcasm gets your undies in a bunch, you will get vapor lock training with TR, EAG, Vickers, etc. You know that as well as I do.
And by the way-- I didn't say, "I just wanted to be blunt." If you're going to quote me, at least quote what I actually say.
-z
ferdelance
06-21-2008, 19:21
To all you gent's that took that class. It is not YOU, It is the instuctor, for not correcting the the problems.
If he is such a great shooter or, instructor he should have corrected the offenders.
Like I said in my first,comment a few days ago. I'm glad to see that I was not the only one that saw the F__k ups. Thank You Zak
My style is reason. Anyone who pays attention knows that.
Your style in this thread had been condescending, belittling and arrogant.
I think the name of your LLC "DEMIGOD" speaks volumes about your personality.
Zak Smith
06-22-2008, 17:03
Originally Posted by BadShot:
And again you were not there, STFU
To borrow VNgunfighter's response: nice.
Your style in this thread had been condescending, belittling and arrogant.
My first post to this thread (#89) is about a dispassionate and objective in description of behavior as one could be. Yes, I am making some criticism of the shooters (for safety problems) and the instruction (for taking some students too fast). Valid criticism is not the same as condescension or arrogance, and I am relatively nice-- I don't even call anyone out and there's no personal attacks.
A couple of you guys are getting your feelings hurt that I (and a couple others) criticized "your" training class (you apparently have some "personal" attachment to it), and calling me all sorts of bad names because of it. Learn to tell the difference between criticizing a technique or curriculum and you or others as people. One of the largest defects in thinking in the shooting community is conflating personal allegiance with value or truth.
I think the name of your LLC "DEMIGOD" speaks volumes about your personality.
Chalk another one up for ad hominem attack! You guys are on a roll!
Actually, there is a good reason why I named the LLC that when the time came, and you don't know what that reason is.
My stuff is backed by facts, experience, and solid arguments. That's why it's good and valuable, and why I'm usually correct. I have confidence in the things I say because of those reasons. If that confidence offends or threatens you, that's unfortunate.
Zak, I've said it before in this conversation .. your criticism was constructive up until you started passing personal judgment. To be exact, this is what took you out of your lane..
"VNgunfighter is right, they should be embarrassed to have that video posted."
While I may have buried that quote in a few other posts and you didn't catch it, or you chose to ignore it.. there it is in nice bold lettering. That is the point where you specifically departed from the constructive portion of your commentary. That is the exact comment from which you terminally lost value. You're continued defense and lack of understanding regarding what exactly constitutes "Constructive Criticism" simply demonstrates a desire to proliferate the failure.
When you add the insult, belittlement or value judgment which you did, then you've lost the constructive portion of the criticism.
What you seem to be seeking in all of this is some validation of your commentary to start with.
Thanks for the first few portions of the post.
You seem to be seeking someone to take responsibility for the obvious safety issue seen in that video and a few others (if you were to have access to them). I was the first person in the video you all are siting who "swept" the two left lane shooters.
I take responsibility for:
A. Having the barrel of the weapon under my control move across the body of two shooters.
B. Having the safety of my weapon engaged
C. Having my finger off the trigger
D. Making an effortto address the identified issues privately with participants and third party viewers of the videos.
E. Identity methodology and practices that can improve what has been identified as needed resolution.
Does that make you feel better Zak? Do you feel as if you've imparted some degree of wisdom and or actually improved something?
I do now and will continue to take issue with that when it comes from someone who just was not there and not privy to the entire experience and information. Monday morning quarterbacking is all well and good, but the negativity and failure to ad value beyond trumping ones self importance is of no intrinsic value to the discussion, participants or the community.
I'm done with this discussion now. If someone wishes to address me directly, drop me an IM or email. If you need to pick me out of the pictures or videos, I'm the one in the green long sleeve shirt shooting the 9mm AR with the EOTech. I would be more than willing to have additional conversations on the phone, in person or even on a range.
"I'm not going to write ten pages of critique and "How-To" corrections for those criticisms-- that's what a good class ought to teach."
So, you really are just here to run your mouth.
"My point in entering this thread in the first place was to back-up VNgunfighter since he was spot-on in identifying safety problems with the shooters and/or training, and Kelly was ready to dismiss it out of hand."
What VAgunfighter said was that he "especially liked" the specific problems he saw, so you've proven you're good at backing up sarcasm.
"Are ants attacking you? Snakes?" Then you later say "All my comments here are reasoned statements about technique and training progression, not personal attacks."
Getting all 'butt hurt' is your definition of a reasoned statement of technique? I think you're watching the wrong video.
Zak Smith
06-23-2008, 11:10
What you seem to be seeking in all of this is some validation of your commentary to start with.
Nope. It's just that I'm not going to "STFU" because you say so. Since your personal attacks, name-calling, and telling me to STFU have no rational value, I'm sticking to and re-iterating the points.
I was the first person in the video you all are siting [sic] who "swept" the two left lane shooters.
I didn't know it was "you" in the video until you just said that (like I said, the only person in the videos I recognized was Kelly); however, now it makes sense why you're so defensive about it.
Hell, maybe you do feel embarrassed. I would, and have, when stupid stuff I've done was caught on film. We all make mistakes. Some reflect and learn from them; some blame and attack others.
I'm not going to put up with personal attacks or efforts to discredit my valid arguments and points. Instead of the "guilty" parties either staying quiet or posting something to the effect of "my bad - won't happen again - lesson learned", they attacked the messenger even though they themselves were clearly in the wrong.
So, you really are just here to run your mouth.
I actually said exactly why I entered this thread:
"My point in entering this thread in the first place was to back-up VNgunfighter since he was spot-on in identifying safety problems with the shooters and/or training, and Kelly was ready to dismiss it out of hand."
VNgunfighter did so using sarcasm-- which was effective at getting his point across.
NineHotel
06-24-2008, 16:44
Can someone please explain to me how seconds 1:51 through 1:54 of this video were safely filmed? The camera is clearly hand-held.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5Qd6PSif4A
NineHotel
06-24-2008, 16:54
Same video - seconds 30-41 - what is the tactical value of this drill? Shooting the same target 20-30 times while advancing in a line with no cover?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5Qd6PSif4A
mightymouse
06-24-2008, 16:57
Same video - seconds 30-41 - what is the tactical value of this drill? Shooting the same target 20-30 times while advancing in a line with no cover?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5Qd6PSif4A
Its to teach shooting on the move. If you'd BEEN there, a lot of these questions/comments would be moot. Oh wait..
Can someone please explain to me how seconds 1:51 through 1:54 of this video were safely filmed? The camera is clearly hand-held.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5Qd6PSif4A
I was laying on the ground, and 30feet to the side using the camera's zoom. If you think thats dangerous you'd really have a calf over a situation like this:
http://www.ttellc.net/fun/asr.jpg
Loaded guns EVERYWHERE, people shooting past other people in confined spaces, I had powderburns on a shirt sleeve from an AR shooting past me during the SWAT Basic Skills course.
I run with scissors too.
StagLefty
06-24-2008, 17:20
No excuse on the scissors Kelly-we're taught from childhood not to do that !!! Why is everyone so uptight on here lately-relax life is too short.
[Beer]
Zak Smith
06-24-2008, 17:58
Its to teach shooting on the move. If you'd BEEN there, a lot of these questions/comments would be moot. Oh wait..
I do understand the objection that people who view only short video clips or a few photos can lack context around and event; however, it is a sort of logical fallacy to categorically dismiss questions, objections, or criticisms because "someone wasn't there." Just as an example-- If that were the case in the world in general, no rational system of justice could ever exist.
For those who may want them, I have the photos and video from that day. IM me and if you were a participant I will be happy to get a CD in the mail to you with everything I have.
After watching the video I have to agree with Ferdelance in that this is an instructor fault . You can see in the video that when the first shooter turned around and moved to the back of the stack that both shooters in the other lane , the instructor walking behind both lanes and the camera man were swept and the camera man was covered for an extended period while the shooter reloaded or cleared a malfunction ( unable to tell which from the video ) .
In every single training class that I have participated in , some I paid for out of my pocket and some the taxpayers covered , there would have been a cease fire called at that instant and muzzle discipline stressed strongly again usually in a blunt and direct fashion with out much regard who's feelings got stepped on because it is that important .
If the people involved with this are so defense about discussing this on the internet they sure would not have liked some of the nco's I served with where remedial correction for an offense of this nature was a swift smack up side the head and a comment along the lines of my favorite Vickers quote " that's as wrong as 2 boys fu--ing " followed by an extended period of PT .
The instructor should have shut that down right there and then because it is unsafe and his reputation is on the line also . Because now people that have seen this they are questioning what value the training has when gross safety violations are allowed to go un checked and is this going to happen if I participate in training with them ?
The point that competition has no value in the tactical and training market also does not fly as all the high speed guy's take classes from the likes of Leatham , Barhnhart , Etc. . Competition teaches weapons handling under stress in a controlled environment where safety issues such as muzzle control , moving with weapons and firing , keeping your finger off of the trigger when not warranted are instantly corrected . I distinctly remember a quote by Col. Askins that competition of any form was a benefit in a gunfight as you had already worked out the little things at the range and could concentrate on the things that mattered .
This thread has been locked by request.
Safety is paramount, I believe we can all agree on that much.
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