View Full Version : Match prep for the 24hr sniper challenge
A few of us here are getting ready for this comp. I thought it might be fun to compare notes on training, equipment, etc.
Our application (Jawbone is my team mate) was approved Friday. I guess it's for real now.
I did 8 1/2 miles today in the hills here with a 50# ruck. Would have done 10, but my usual route was icy at the top and I was pretty worried about going down with all the weight. My left knee has been showing signs of instability the last two weeks and occasionally just let's go on me. It was snowing and blowing hard in my face the last 2 miles and I got home pretty well wrecked.
DeusExMachina
02-09-2013, 20:11
I would find it entertaining if people posted the rifle they intend to lug 30 miles.
dwalker460
02-09-2013, 20:33
I plan on lugging my standard 5.56 ar, 18" barrel, not particularly light but I know I can hit with and it's reliable. I am likely to change optics a couple of times before I'm happy with it. Will strip off anything not 100percent necessary, so no lights or other stuff.
I did a quick hike today when I got home, will do a longer one tomorrow assuming it's not too icy. If it is I will be on the indoor bike etc. I guess. Really concentrating more on improving my endurance than anything else right now. What would really help is to start hiking into a shoot area and shooting while tired and shaky as hell. That's coming up in the near future.
islandermyk
02-09-2013, 21:09
What would really help is to start hiking into a shoot area and shooting while tired and shaky as hell. That's coming up in the near future.
I'd be interested in joining you in this if it's cool... of course depending on what day you do it on [Beer]
I would find it entertaining if people posted the rifle they intend to lug 30 miles.
Be entertained. I'm carrying the bolt gun. It weighs 17ish pounds.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c173/tkulin/cba96ecd95b68124d0fde921ff2a66ae.jpg
DeusExMachina
02-09-2013, 21:36
Bull barrel, AICS...24" barrel? I'm sorry.
This (http://www.uscg.mil/hr/cg111/docs/pdf/SFAS%20prep%20book.pdf) isn't a bad place to start your training.
Bull barrel, AICS...24" barrel? I'm sorry.
I forget the barrel profile. It's heavy enough. 27". Chambered in .260. AICS 2.0 stock, Nightforce NXS 5.5-22.
This (http://www.uscg.mil/hr/cg111/docs/pdf/SFAS%20prep%20book.pdf) isn't a bad place to start your training.
Good call for sure.
I try to ruck 4-5 miles every day on my lunch hour. 65-100 lbs depending on how I feel. I can hold 4.2-4.5 mph on level ground.
Dinosdeuce
02-10-2013, 10:33
I'll stick to my training regiment.
12oz curls multiple reps. With aerobics in between (brisk walk to the fridge).
Grueling yes, but rewarding.
Dino
I'll stick to my training regiment.
12oz curls multiple reps. With aerobics in between (brisk walk to the fridge).
Grueling yes, but rewarding.
Dino
You gotta cross train for optimal results. Add some hot wings or fried cheese sticks and you should be good.
This AM:
Run 1/4 mile with an 8# weight in each hand
25 push-ups
15 crunches
20 back extensions
10 rope pull ups
25 body weight squats
Repeat until vomiting commences (6 sets in my case)
Run an easy mile to cool down.
islandermyk
02-10-2013, 15:03
I need to ask:
What kind of training do you do for the field crafting and navigation?
Can you use GPS in these comps or is it strictly maps and a compass?
I need to ask:
What kind of training do you do for the field crafting and navigation?
Can you use GPS in these comps or is it strictly maps and a compass?
Looks like GPS is illegal for use except for emergency according to website. To practice land nav & field craft....get in the woods and do it.
islandermyk
02-10-2013, 16:02
So no GPS... no electronics.
The nav part I get, but field crafts... what sort of stuff are we talking here? Setting up tents, fires, etc... is this some of the stuff to expect or is there more to it? What is to expect or needed for a comp like this dealing with field crafts?
Sorry for all the questions... I'm an ocean person. You can leave me on an island for months or even years left with just a knife, machete, and a zippo [Coffee]
quickdraw
02-10-2013, 16:09
Join a CrossFit gym...
dwalker460
02-10-2013, 16:56
Went out for a run, only abut a mile, then been doing sets of 50 crunches and pushups at hour intervals. I hate the indoor bike so it was good to get out and run. Need to put a pack together tomorrow and do 4 or 5 miles.
dwalker460
02-10-2013, 17:15
So no GPS... no electronics.
The nav part I get, but field crafts... what sort of stuff are we talking here? Setting up tents, fires, etc... is this some of the stuff to expect or is there more to it? What is to expect or needed for a comp like this dealing with field crafts?
Sorry for all the questions... I'm an ocean person. You can leave me on an island for months or even years left with just a knife, machete, and a zippo [Coffee]
The fieldcraft can range from simple stuff like rope bridges, rappel, improvised equipment, and staying healthy out on the march to SERE, ya just never know.
If you want to talk about the event, pm me your number and I will be glad to talk over what I have going on.
Dinosdeuce
02-10-2013, 18:45
Didn't think about the hot wings. Good call.
Tim are you taking notes?
Not participating but RO'ing again this year. Good luck to those who choose to enter a greuling adventure. Zac and crew put on a great event. You will be challenged for sure.
Dino
You gotta cross train for optimal results. Add some hot wings or fried cheese sticks and you should be good.
This AM:
Run 1/4 mile with an 8# weight in each hand
25 push-ups
15 crunches
20 back extensions
10 rope pull ups
25 body weight squats
Repeat until vomiting commences (6 sets in my case)
Run an easy mile to cool down.
I'd be interested in joining you in this if it's cool... of course depending on what day you do it on [Beer]
like i been saying in multiple threads, id love to find a legit place to hike in and be able to set up and shoot.
in case anyone needs a practice area for navigation, check out lost creek wilderness. the underbrush isn't too thick and trees are spaced far enough apart that you can traverse off trail fairly decently. there are also land marks here and there you could set as waypoints and navigate to them. basspro and rei have very good national geographic maps that show elevation and stuff. if only there was a place there to shoot.....
islandermyk
02-10-2013, 20:58
I would almost say the South-site would be a cool spot.... but am hesitant with some horror stories that have been going on over there... I would also say Pawnee, but that's one hell of a drive to start with...
if you find some where to do all this.. you let me know [Beer]
dwalker460
02-10-2013, 21:00
We can do that at Pawneee I think, but thats a hell of a drive. There is a place in Longmont I think we can use, and I can likely arrange something at the ranch, depending on season and what they have going on out there. So there are several places to do that sort of training.
islandermyk
02-10-2013, 21:15
When I'm at Pawnee... from time to time I do the "Shoot and scoot", but I only did it for 1200 yards in and out getting between 400, 500, 600, 700, 900, 1000 and 1200 yards and that was almost an all dayer... it was hella fun though.
For sure hiking a mile or two is possible up there with the shooting too....
Hello...National forest? Get a map & compass, pack your shit, go for a hike. Use GPS to confirm your locations only. Pick a target against a good backstop at unknown yardage & shoot it. Don't over think it. This whole state is set up for training.
Hello...National forest? Get a map & compass, pack your shit, go for a hike. Use GPS to confirm your locations only. Pick a target against a good backstop at unknown yardage & shoot it. Don't over think it. This whole state is set up for training.
mmmmmmm no. unless you know the area very, very well, shooting at 800-1000 yards is quite the risk in national forest. you have to have an area you know is safe and there aren't people wandering somewhere back there or across your line of fire. if you are shooting at 100 yards or something sure its easy enough to find a spot. hell, finding a spot to shoot 1000 yards in the mountains is hard enough as it is.
pawnee isn't bad in theory, it could work, its just not very fun. its a good place to plain go and do long range shooting, but hiking significant distances there is boring.
I would almost say the South-site would be a cool spot.... but am hesitant with some horror stories that have been going on over there... I would also say Pawnee, but that's one hell of a drive to start with...
if you find some where to do all this.. you let me know [Beer]
islandermyk
02-11-2013, 19:25
So 5 months of sitting on my ass and not doing sh*t... I decided to do a little hike around my part of town. Did 3 miles of walking and running on the grass, loose gravel, dirt paths.. even jumped around curves and walked across these man made river paths with a 50 pound pack on my back.. I tried to make obstacles as I went. HOLY F*CKEN SH*T!!! I am way the f*ck out of shape... I'm surprised I made it back home on my own [ROFL1]
I had my ipod going and most of the time I didn't really know what was playing for the most part. After 2 miles I started planking with the pack still on me for as long as I can hold (probably 30 seconds) and started running and walking the rest of the mile back home.
The only contents I had in the pack was 40 pounds of ammo, a bladder full of water, and other sh*t I didn't feel like pulling out of the bag... hopefully, this will all increase as time goes by... feels good.. it was pretty fun I had a good time [Beer]
If anyone wants to meet me, I'll be parking roughly 10 miles from the Pueblo PD match this Saturday. I'm going to leave my truck at the park-n-ride area at the bottom of the exit off 25 onto Purcell. From there, I've plotted a route that nets out 10 miles. I'll hit the lot at 8:30. Max walk time is 3 hours, probably more like 2 1/2, putting me at the range between 11:00 and 11:30. The match starts at noon. It's all just a road march but should still be a good training tool, especially if my knees allow me to step up the pace.
I'll then beg a ride back to the truck. Or walk again. Begging sounds promising.
islandermyk
02-12-2013, 10:13
Here's something I found..
QUZASW3Tnok
quickdraw
02-12-2013, 16:57
That is for the Steel Safari which is about 1,000 times less physically demanding than the 24 hr. match and the Team Challenge which is about 100 times less physically demanding than the 24 hr. match. $0.02
I think QD understated it a little. it is about 1000 times more difficult than the TBAC Team Challenge. If you have solid dope for your rifle and a command of exterior ballistics and have shot at the NRA SRM in Raton a few times you will be fine. The teams that placed in the top 5 were good shooters, no doubt, but they spent more time preparing by gear selection, i.e. weight, multiple uses, etc. If it is tacticool....you don't need it.
As I RO'ed the event last year, I thougth the most challenging part is the understanding the nutrition aspect to this type of event, food selection, calorie in-take, hydration, managing water, appropiate amounts of rest and when.
If you guys haven't read the 2012 24 HR match thread on Snipers Hide - you should. There are some great links to some competitor write ups of the event that will offer some great insight to last years event.
dwalker460
02-12-2013, 23:00
I think QD understated it a little. it is about 1000 times more difficult than the TBAC Team Challenge. If you have solid dope for your rifle and a command of exterior ballistics and have shot at the NRA SRM in Raton a few times you will be fine. The teams that placed in the top 5 were good shooters, no doubt, but they spent more time preparing by gear selection, i.e. weight, multiple uses, etc. If it is tacticool....you don't need it.
I really agree with this. I have done a fair amount of backpacking, primitive camping etc. and I think light, efficient, and solid gear will go far, with good shooting to go along with it. Admittedly, I have not done this event or really anything like it, but everyone has a first time.
As I RO'ed the event last year, I thougth the most challenging part is the understanding the nutrition aspect to this type of event, food selection, calorie in-take, hydration, managing water, appropiate amounts of rest and when.
Very much agree. I spoke with the sports nutrition guy we use for the race drivers and he had a lot to say about food and water. Like know what you can and cannot eat when your exhausted, it doesnt do you any good to have a half dozen energy bars you cant stomach or makes you sick when your tapped out. Water, electrolyte drinks, etc. are important. Talking with Tim he believes, and I agree, that its very likely to finish the event with a calorie deficit of 2000 or more. Thats a fair amount.
If you guys haven't read the 2012 24 HR match thread on Snipers Hide - you should. There are some great links to some competitor write ups of the event that will offer some great insight to last years event.
I have read all the reports and input I could find, really hoping to learn from those who went before me.
islandermyk
02-13-2013, 00:03
I was fascinated not with the different events the video was entertaining... I'm pretty blown away with all the unknowns like targets, distant to targets, etc... especially the 5 minutes to spot and engage your target got me all "wow"! shooting mats... not recommended.. I could only imagine why [Coffee]
I've seen short clips of some of these events and see that most are traveling really lite, and some of the equipment they carry like'em bino's with range finders... oooweee... I need to get me one of those..
Seems like a shit load of hell and fun put into one event...
dwalker460
02-13-2013, 00:22
Mike I got your pm but have been busy, will call you tomorrow in the afternoon!
islandermyk
02-13-2013, 00:29
Mike I got your pm but have been busy, will call you tomorrow in the afternoon!
I work the PM shift tomorrow between 1400 to 2200... leave a message if I miss your call... I'll return your call as soon as I can [Beer]
rustycrusty
02-13-2013, 04:00
LOL to the 'deficiit of 2000 calories.
I agree with cautioning against shooting in national forest. If you can't read a map PERFECTLY you will likely be shooting on someone's private property. Property exists in small plots scattered throughout national forest. Being caught on this property is awkward when hiking. It could be deadly when carrying scary black rifles while geared up like guerrilla warriors... Paranoid cabin owner thinks 'HOME INVASION'
also, don't trust your REI maps or anything that is dated. Property changes.
Careful out there, good luck!
rustycrusty
02-13-2013, 04:03
Is it just the 1 team or are there 2 teams on this thread?
Tim K and Jawbone are a team. DWalker460 is considering it and looking for a team mate last I spoke to him.
Since this stuff was pretty much ignored in the other thread here we go again .
Shooting is not the most important skill to be practicing for this match . Will you have to shoot to a cerain level , yes , will a team that shoots the best and struggles with the rest of the task's finish well , no .
Get a map of the match area and start doing map recon , 1-50K is acceptable but 1-25K or better is recommended . Make sure the map has MGRS grids on it and get a protracter and learn how to use it fast and accuratley .
Practice route selection , there were teams last year that basically screwed themselves because they moved in a straight line between points instead of finding an easier but little bit longer route .
The check points are not all manned and the stakes lat year were 1x2's with reflective tape on them and were a chore to find at times , practice this after dark as well about 1/3 to 1/2 of all and most of the difficult land nav was after dark .
Practice working efficiently with your partner when given a task . There were teams that over 2 hours to build the portage apparatus and get there shit together and leave the start position . There were teams that did not make it to the 1st check point before we shut it down , approx 5 1/2 hours after the start time .
Test your gear ahead of time .
Test your footwear , blisters are not a forgone conclusion . There were teams that had to have huge blisters taken care of at the first position by the 18D that I was with . Huge blisters being lanced and the skin glued back on to their feet . It makes it way harder when your feet are trashed .
Cant say for sure but it is a pretty good guess there will be another portage event so dont plan on just humping your crap for the whole event . Last year was 100 lbs in a duffle bag with 2 2x4's . Test your gear in this situation also .
Plan to stay hydrated , last year there was water at most of the check points but not all of them .
Find some stuff that is easy to eat on the move , grazing is better than eating some thing huge a couple of times .
I'll support what C Ward said: prepare, prepare, prepare.
-Food: you need to see a nutritionist if you haven't done something like this and get a plan started at least 1 week prior to the event. Build up the right amount of calories & fat so you're not buring muscle. Same with hydration. It takes 24-48 hrs to properly hydrate.
-Feet: Your feet need to be prepared for this. To toughen up your feet you have to put miles on them. Road march at least 1-2 times per week. Switch back and forth between speed marching with 30-40 lbs (3-6 mi @ 4-5 mph) and distance marching with 80 lbs (12-25 mi @3-4 mph with a 20 min break every 4 hrs). Your boots should have 100-200 miles on them before starting the event.
-Gear: Ounces=pounds. Start cutting weight. Don't carry comfort items. Socks, food, water, toilet paper, water, flashlights/chemlights, snivel & rain gear, water and mission essential gear only. Duct tape, 550 cord, and a good field knife are always useful with fieldcraft. Spares for essential items are necessary ie. extra ammo, magazines, batteries, compass, flashlight, and more socks.
-Mindset: start this now. You have to be determined to not quit, not slow down, nor even take a break unless it serves another function. If you're going to pause to change socks, go piss/shit also before you start moving. If you're resting, you can be doing a map check at the same time. If you go into any event worried about you skills or your gear...you will fail it. You must be confident in yours and your partners skills, equipment, and determination. Test and retest everything then again in the dark. Do it when you're exhausted, hungry, cold & wet, etc... It's amazing how difficult little tasks are when you're droning.
Since this stuff was pretty much ignored in the other thread here we go again .
Not ignoring you Chuck, we're just doing most of that already. The news about the checkpoints and the reflective tape is new to me. We'll work on that.
Frankly, my biggest concern for my team is navigation. We have topos and satellite imagery already but are still needing to figure out the exact borders of the ranch. Eating is the other relative unknown. I've been doing some research, but when it warms up a bit I'll test out some of the ideas with a few 20 mile days. The most I can get now due to time constraints is roughly 10 miles in the hills, and I can do that on an empty stomach with a hangover.
If its not on the site all ready there will be a link to get the match map from MyTopo , thats the way it was done last year . There will be a map issued at the match also . The grids were given in MGRS and a protractor WASN'T issued .
If its not on the site all ready there will be a link to get the match map from MyTopo , thats the way it was done last year . There will be a map issued at the match also . The grids were given in MGRS and a protractor WASN'T issued .
No map on the site yet, at least not that I can find.
Email Zak he may have the link already , didn't mess with the logistics just RO'ing
Practice land nav out some place flat without a bunch of linear terrain features and get your pace count over as many different terrains / loads as possible also . Land nav with out safety lines of extra terrain features is way harder .
Practice land nav out some place flat without a bunch of linear terrain features and get your pace count over as many different terrains / loads as possible also .
I'm new to the land nav thing. I understand the concepts of pace counts and dead reckoning, but not the practical application. Do you count paces/mile?
Per hundred meters , ask Sat. Both me and Brian will be there .
SA Friday
02-13-2013, 17:11
C Ward, if Tim isn't aware of pace count, I would bet $5 he doesn't have a MGRS compass or may not even understand MGRS. I was thinking about trying the PD match this saturday, but cant be positive I can make it. If I'm there, I'll bring a MGRS compass for Tim.
I would bet $5 he doesn't have a MGRS compass or may not even understand MGRS.
THere is no such thing as a "MGRS compass." MGRS is a method of describing points on an datum. A compass is a tool used to determine magnetic north. Are you referring to a lensatic compass perhaps?
C Ward, if Tim isn't aware of pace count, I would bet $5 he doesn't have a MGRS compass or may not even understand MGRS. I was thinking about trying the PD match this saturday, but cant be positive I can make it. If I'm there, I'll bring a MGRS compass for Tim.
Absolutely correct about not owning one. I "think" I understand the concept, but would welcome any and all guidance. I'll hit you all up this Saturday.
On another note, I loaded my pack for Saturday. Damn thing weighs 52# and is still short a few items on the required gear list. It'll end up 55# before its all done, and there is not one little bit of "fat" in it. The rifle at 17# is not helping, but I see no way around that either
The reports last year of guys running super light packs don't make any sense to me.
Compass is a compass . What you need is a protractor , don't know where mine is at any more , been a while since I needed it . MyTopo has them also or just Google MGRS protractor . This stuff is way easier to show how to than type about . Ill see if I can find my protractor and dig up a map to bring with me Sat . The zoomie may have one also and you may give him a yell as well .
SRSDriver on SH was 1/2 of the 2nd place team and would be a good source of info also .
I appreciate your willingness to help, Chuck.
Easier to type on the computer now instead of the phone .
SRSDriver is local to Co , out of FT Collins IIRC , and has shot with us at Raton and Douglas before . He and his partner have a big backround in adventure races .
Any quality compass in degree's will work . I'm partial to the military lensatic compass as it was what I learned on and have used the most .
I found my old protractor and have last years map and an old TM on map reading that I'll bring Sat .
Brian is going to be a huge resource for questions , He's got more recent experience at this stuff than me and the land nav stuff He's done is just about as hard as it gets on the military side .
What pack are You running , Did I see something about an Eberlestock ? If so they are stupid heavy to start with , the same with the Kifaru stuff other than the ultra light stuff . The Eberlestock packs are great for toting the rifle around but create other issues by having the hard tail hanging down below them .
Yup, running an Eberlestock. Pack alone is 7#. I'll have it with me Saturday.
SA Friday
02-13-2013, 20:52
Compass is a compass . What you need is a protractor , don't know where mine is at any more , been a while since I needed it . MyTopo has them also or just Google MGRS protractor . This stuff is way easier to show how to than type about . Ill see if I can find my protractor and dig up a map to bring with me Sat . The zoomie may have one also and you may give him a yell as well .
yep. typed compass, meant protractor.
What you need is a protractor , don't know where mine is at any more , been a while since I needed it .
GTA 5-2-12 is the mil designation if you're having difficulty finding one.
islandermyk
02-13-2013, 23:48
awesome thread... geez, I'm a little bit overwhelmed with a lot of the info being thrown out here.
Awesome stuff guys! Thanks for sharing... my list of shit to get and test is just getting longer and longer...
rustycrusty
02-14-2013, 03:59
So... I will throw out some things that could have helped us immensely last year. (Took 16th place- dead middle of the pack, but would have done much better if they penalized accepting IVs as we were the only team we met along the way that didn't use one...)
a spotting optic would have been real nice. My partner ran big boy rifle and I was helpless with my 4 power scope. Some guys at a stage we were at broke out some big glass and really saw benefit from it. Small tripod for it- even better.
Also, drop rig or thigh holster would have removed some of the pain from my rifle pinching my skin against the rear sight of my pistol.
Chapstick... It's the small things (Like your lips falling off from sunburn) that you don't think about.
TP... Yeah...
dwalker460
02-17-2013, 17:54
No team mate yet but still training. Yesterday was at Pawnee shooting the longer ranges. VERY windy but a great learning curve. Shot a lot of prone and improvised positions, normal sort of stuff. The wind was a real bitch, gusting well over 10mph then dying, but was still ringing steel out at 400 with the carbine.
Today was another 5 mile hike with the pack, 60lbs in it today. Feeling pretty good, so depending on what the wife has planned likely go do a run later.
islandermyk
02-17-2013, 20:24
Here's something I learned from a friend of mine that learned this while he was in the service.
Blisters are caused by abrasion against the skin. Lubricating the skin can keep that abrasion from causing blisters. The lubricant you use should be one that will last for the length of your walk. Apply any lubricant liberally to your feet in any area that is prone to blistering.
http://walking.about.com/od/blisterschafing/tp/blisterprep.htm
I walked to the PD match with 55# in the pack. The wind was a steady 35mph in my face the whole time. It was the first time I've ever experienced having to push to walk downhill. My quads a glutes were firing hard to make headway even down pretty good slopes. It was the longest 8 miles I've ever walked. I do 10 regularly in the hills where I live (8,500ft), and that's pretty tame compared to that damn wind.
I was pleased to find that the exertion did not affect my shooting one bit. Admittedly, it was only 8 miles but I felt great on the rifle.
Big thanks to Chuck, Sean, and Sean's friend (I missed his name) for all the land nav help.
If the wind isn't kicking my ass next month, I'll up the mileage to 10 or 12 miles.
The match rules require one pen flare launcher and six flares per team. Personally, given the fire risk I think it's a pretty dumb idea, but it is a requirement. I'll bet if you used one and started a big fire you'd be held criminally and civilly liable. I have a launcher, but can't find a local source for the flares. Anyone know of one?
If not, I was thinking that any of us who are local-ish could get together and order on line. A set of six flares is $25. Hazmat is $25, and I'd propose we split up the shipping and hazmat.
Tim, they are for emergency only and your safety. I don't know of anyone using them last year. I have a set I lent to a Texas team at the match. If you would like to borrow them you are welcome to them.
The match rules require one pen flare launcher and six flares per team. Personally, given the fire risk I think it's a pretty dumb idea, but it is a requirement. I'll bet if you used one and started a big fire you'd be held criminally and civilly liable. I have a launcher, but can't find a local source for the flares. Anyone know of one?
If not, I was thinking that any of us who are local-ish could get together and order on line. A set of six flares is $25. Hazmat is $25, and I'd propose we split up the shipping and hazmat.
Thanks for the offer. I'll definitely take you up on that.
I understand they are for emergency use, but considering the other required gear (SPOT beacon, signal mirror, emergency strobe, match radio, GPS, and cell phone) it seems like overkill considering the fire risk. To be fair, I haven't seen the ground down there. Maybe there's not enough vegetation to burn.
I get you, HOWEVER, with all the tech you have....our radios worked sporatically, no cell phone service where I was stationed, GPS does you no good if you can't call out your location and need assistance (i.e. can't walk). I know Ray spent many hours evacuating teams from the course between MC1 and MC2 - they had radio but had no clue where they were. If you have to use the flares - there is a life safety emergency and they need to get to you quick.
Point taken. Thanks again for the offer. I'll PM you.
TheBelly
02-20-2013, 13:48
I was pleased to find that the exertion did not affect my shooting one bit. Admittedly, it was only 8 miles but I felt great on the rifle.
Big thanks to Chuck, Sean, and Sean's friend (I missed his name) for all the land nav help.
If the wind isn't kicking my ass next month, I'll up the mileage to 10 or 12 miles.
The first 10-12 miles aren't that bad. It's when the weight of the pack starts wearing on you at around mile 20 that it can get to you. Remember: ounces = pounds and pounds = pain. There are PLENTY of lighter weight alternatives for what you're carrying. I have a couple packs that aren't military oriented, but they are a LOT lighter than 7 lbs.
I've been looking at compasses (compi?). There are about a zillion from which to choose, many expensive enough to make me think they should be worth considering. Should I just stick with a military style, or is there reason to consider the high end commercial units?
http://www.amazon.com/OFFICIAL-MILITARY-TRITIUM-LENSATIC-COMPASS/dp/B001W2CJX6/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1361465597&sr=8-5&keywords=compass
http://www.amazon.com/Suunto-SS004252010-MC-2G-Global-Compass/dp/B000FEUCRW/ref=sr_1_1?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1361465700&sr=1-1&keywords=compass+suunto
http://www.amazon.com/Silva-Ranger-CL-Compass/dp/B0039ZBMNM/ref=sr_1_2?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1361465821&sr=1-2&keywords=compass
DocMedic
02-21-2013, 11:05
The Suunto is nice, and is the same one I use. Military ones are OK, but need to be checked for "sticking", one of the reason I bought the Suunto was because the Mil compass I had at LDAC would stick 2* on either side after taking a reading which is fine if your only moving 400 meters. Not so fine when you're doing 2 click movements...
I like the military ones because thats what I learned on , if your gonna get one go straight to Cammenga , so? , they are the manufacturer . The others you listed are good too , there is a fair amount of personal preference after finding quality stuff . Go to REI and play with some and see what you like .
TheBelly
02-21-2013, 11:10
For land nav, I always use a rugged compass (and take two of them). Here's a quick story:
land nav course in Washington state, and I dropped my compass. I thought I lost it, and I'd have pay for it. It was at the end of the course, and I just had to get back to the start point. I knew where I was, so it was just a straight shot from there. I was too tired to remember that I tied it down to my pack. 6km later, and the stupid thing had just been dragged behind me across a couple open fields, down a road, and across a drop zone, all while open and exposed (not closed up and protected). Damn thing still works, and I still have it!
oh, another point, tie down whatever you can't live without.
Delfuego
02-21-2013, 11:15
Brunton makes nice compasses. We use these for backcoutry skiing.
Make sure whatever compas you get works at night! (meaning you can see it without having to pull out a flashlight each time) Yes, this means ou may have to spend $100 on a good compass. It's a cost of playing the game...having a $5K rifle does no good if you cant find the target because you wanted to save a few bucks on your compass.
SA Friday
02-21-2013, 21:51
I walked to the PD match with 55# in the pack. The wind was a steady 35mph in my face the whole time. It was the first time I've ever experienced having to push to walk downhill. My quads a glutes were firing hard to make headway even down pretty good slopes. It was the longest 8 miles I've ever walked. I do 10 regularly in the hills where I live (8,500ft), and that's pretty tame compared to that damn wind.
I was pleased to find that the exertion did not affect my shooting one bit. Admittedly, it was only 8 miles but I felt great on the rifle.
Big thanks to Chuck, Sean, and Sean's friend (I missed his name) for all the land nav help.
If the wind isn't kicking my ass next month, I'll up the mileage to 10 or 12 miles.
My friend is on the site. He's "TheBelly".
Let me know if you need anything else.
dwalker460
02-26-2013, 16:47
Well I am out of this one this year, I have a World Challenge Touring Car race at Lime Rock that weekend. Thought possibly the date would change but its locked in 100%now, so I will be doing a different kind of race that weekend unless something happens and we dont make it, but there is just no way to count on that one happening. Still training and looks like I can make the Snipers Hide Cup, Steel Safari, and possibly the team challenge, but no 24hour Challenge.
Sorry to hear it. I'm alone again...
I bought a compass and a land nav book at REI over the weekend and have been working through it. The concepts are easy enough to understand, but I'm sure I'll suck when I try it outside.
Sorry to hear it. I'm alone again...
I bought a compass and a land nav book at REI over the weekend and have been working through it. The concepts are easy enough to understand, but I'm sure I'll suck when I try it outside.
Great! I've been wondering where to start.
About the only thing I can contribute to this thread, is that in my experience running, I've found that synthetic socks are far and above better at preventing blisters over cotton socks.
islandermyk
02-26-2013, 21:06
Great! I've been wondering where to start.
About the only thing I can contribute to this thread, is that in my experience running, I've found that synthetic socks are far and above better at preventing blisters over cotton socks.
I heard the same with Merino/smart wool... no cotton or anything that absorbs moisture.
I've also wanted to try putting some vaseline on the feet.
islandermyk
02-26-2013, 21:10
Sorry to hear it. I'm alone again...
I bought a compass and a land nav book at REI over the weekend and have been working through it. The concepts are easy enough to understand, but I'm sure I'll suck when I try it outside.
I'm in the hunting and gathering... and then fielding testing.
I'm pretty close to committing on doing this myself, but I'm in need of a teammate.... it was suggested to look for one on snipershide as well... what is the deadline to signing up for this anyways???
All I's got to shoot is a bolt rifle and a pistol for this one.
Deadline is when all the slots are full. Ours was number ten, but I don't know how many there might be. I'd guess you have a month or more, but that's pure speculation.
On the sock subject, I've been buying wool from Costco. They've been excellent so far.
I have little to no experience with wool. I couldn't imagine running in wool, seems too hot. Hiking around in the mountains seems different though.
TheBelly
02-26-2013, 22:06
What about smart-wool?
Wool is good because it insulates regardless of moisture.
i always wore nylons under the wool for abrasion resistance.
islandermyk
02-26-2013, 22:08
I have little to no experience with wool. I couldn't imagine running in wool, seems too hot. Hiking around in the mountains seems different though.
Check this out [Beer]
s1iR0KlJoZs
Thanks for posting that. I like the medium padding socks.
islandermyk
02-26-2013, 22:47
Thanks for posting that. I like the medium padding socks.
[Beer]
I ordered 2 pairs of this stuff... lets see how they stand up when I get'em [Coffee]
rustycrusty
02-27-2013, 01:21
On a compass-
2 is 1. 1 is none. The military lensatic worked fine for many that I saw.
On footwear-
socks- I would go with a padded wool- something with the thicker bottoms. Thicker= more padding. REI brand offers the most cushioned I've found. Also cheapest. They look like thick winter socks, but don't be fooled- they did just fine in the desert last year. Smartwool... Pricey, but if going to splurge I would go heavy pads. Medium at minimum.
Liner is debatable. I ran polypro liners last year and it worked alright.
Shoes: splurge
boots- whatever you run, make sure they have a solid shank and good support/fit. A snug fit in the boot kept me from a rolled ankle several times, and also helped me on the blisters. Snug fit=less movement=less blisters. Having a high boot was nice at keeping me from getting sliced on hidden barbwire on the ground as well. I added some weight here by running heavier Danner Acadias, but I was glad I did it.
Hey Tim,
you hiking down to Raton this weekend? I'll give you a ride back!
Hey Tim,
you hiking down to Raton this weekend? I'll give you a ride back!
Yup, leaving the house in a few minutes...
The gear list call for 6 lengths of 1" tubular nylon, 4' long. What the heck is this stuff? Is it rigid pipe or something else?
Nylon webbing that is constructed as a tube instead of flat . You can use it for all kinds of stuff . Ask the zoomie , he can probably get some from the riggers or it's available online . Last year it was used to lash the portage apparatus together .
Ask the zoomie , he can probably get some from the riggers
I am the Riggers. Well, one of them.
One inch and half inch tubular nylon. We use and toss lots of it every day.
Be nice now , you still owe me and I could undo it for you on Sun if the conditions present themselves again . Remember it's not wise to upset the wookie.
I did a ruck tonight. Not note worthy compared to what you guys are talking about, but I've never done anything like it before. Pack weighed 24lbs, did 5.42 miles. Overall pace was only 3.4 mph. There was quite a bit of stopping and messing around during the second half though.
Learned some things. Shoes are absolute garbage, forgot water, strap on pack came loose while running. I started to feel my legs getting sore between mile 3 and 4. Right at 4mi I started to feel the pack itself. I accidentally put both feet in just over ankle deep water 1.5 mi in. Thank goodness for synthetic socks. Learned I need to rethink the lanyard on my compass, learned to trust what the compass says. The worst parts is that my "hiking" boots were paper thin on the balls of my feet by the end. I felt like I was wearing my Vibrams.
Hey Chuck or Dino,
What was the scale on the map issued at last year's event?
dwalker460
03-07-2013, 12:34
Did the Multi-gun match at CRC (did not do as well as I could have) on Saturday then did a hike in Cherokee Park Sunday with my buddies John and Paul. We only took the .22's as it was supposed to just be a fun day, but we still had a blast. Had I known no one else would have been around for miles and miles I would have taken the AR with the 22 conversion and strapped on my pistol rig instead of leaving in the pack. I was a tick nervous about looking a little too "mil spec" while wandering around there, since I had never been there just had no idea what to expect. Terrain was pretty rough going in until we found a jeep trail to follow for a bit. Overall had a great little hike and even shot a bit.
Also gear related, I was carrying a decently full pack and had no problems negotiating the rockier and steeper trails, up or down. I might have actually been a little on the heavy side. In the pack was:
9mm XDM with belt, drop holster and three full mags- never got around to putting it on the hip
2 complete MRE's, just to more or less simulate the weight and size of whatever might be in the pack at the Snipers challenge
Ultralight IFAK
1 500rd brick of Winchester Wildcat .22lr
1 500rd Brick of American eagle .22lr
1 box of 375rds .22lr
2 or 3 boxes of subsonic 22lr
paddle hip holster for the XD, left in the packfrom the previous days 3-gun match
OTIS AR cleaning kit
DPMS AR15 feild repair kit
2 flashlights, one a pic rail weaponlight with single n battery, the second a pocket light with 2 n batteries
3 litres of water in a camelback inside a TAG carrier attached to the packs outer MOLLE loops
empty 2litre camelback in the hydro pouch inside the pack- just did not fill it before we took off
wool/thinsulate watch cap
Outer shell that goes with the fleece liner jacket
25rnd mag for the 10/22
10/22 with 10rnd mag and scope in gun compartment
All the extra 22 ammo was really just there to add some weight,not because we were planning on shooting that much.
I had a Buckmark pistol on the pack waist belt
In the pockets was my CRKT folder, pocket flashlight, spare 10/22 10 rd mag, spare Buckmark mag, some loose 22lr rounds.
Mostly we just hiked at as fast a pace as the terrain would allow, really did not do much shooting at all.
All in all a great time
Hey Chuck or Dino,
What was the scale on the map issued at last year's event?
1:20k IIRC , I'll check tonight the map's at home
Dinosdeuce
03-07-2013, 21:19
What he said. Always late to the party.
Check out the latest copy of sniper. two articles about last years event.
Dino
islandermyk
03-08-2013, 20:10
http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp261/brutaltlr/The%20Guns%20and%20shoots%20and%20%20all%20related %20to%20it/IMAG1486_zpsd59e2f3e.jpg
Ignore the other stuff... it's the socks I want to talk about here.
These socks are freakin amazing!!!!! I just did 4 to 5 miles of hiking and shooting today, lugging around 50+lbs of sh*t (rifle, ammo, LRF, etc...) on me.
My feet stayed well... shit...! Like they didn't sweat or do anything! I got the heavy ones and they are comfortable as hell!
Sorry... first time rocking socks like this. I'm pretty blown away with how they performed.
I got home and weird enough when I took'em off. My feet were dry and the socks were a little moist. Good stuff for sure!
I use Thorlio socks for long walks. I've got thousands of miles on them with a ruck on in every environment on this planet. Add gortex socks over the top when expecting light water and just get them wet when wading through the deep stuff. At only $10 per pair, I've depended on them for over a decade now and never had a reason to keep trying others.
islandermyk
03-08-2013, 22:24
I use Thorlio socks for long walks. I've got thousands of miles on them with a ruck on in every environment on this planet. Add gortex socks over the top when expecting light water and just get them wet when wading through the deep stuff. At only $10 per pair, I've depended on them for over a decade now and never had a reason to keep trying others.
Dangit... now I got to try some of these out...
.. got a pair I could borrow [Coffee]
I kid I kid.. but I do plan on buying a pair to try out [Beer]
https://www.thorlo.com/socks/mcb/404
These are the ones. I guess they are up to $15 now (MSRP). Shows how long it's been since I've had to replace any.
islandermyk
03-08-2013, 22:39
https://www.thorlo.com/socks/mcb/404
These are the ones. I guess they are up to $15 now (MSRP). Shows how long it's been since I've had to replace any.
I was also looking at their trekking socks... I'll definitely score me a pair... Thanks! [Beer]
Ok, what to do with a floppy map? I was trying out my new land nav skills the other day and the combination of a full size paper map and 10 mph of wind about defeated me. Is there some sort of plastic sleeve, or do you just put the map on the ground and deal with it?
TheBelly
03-14-2013, 08:02
there's a way to fold it so that it's not this big huge map flapping in the breeze. Some don't like folding because it puts creases in the map, possibly where you need to see something..
I always used a map board, self constructed. couple binder clips, a piece of plexiglass, and you can write all over that thing.
Keep your map dry.
Ok, what to do with a floppy map? I was trying out my new land nav skills the other day and the combination of a full size paper map and 10 mph of wind about defeated me. Is there some sort of plastic sleeve, or do you just put the map on the ground and deal with it?
Laminate it.
I always used acetate on the map and then put it in a pocket case folded to the part I needed . Case had a dummy cord on it so I wouldn't lose it .
Good advice guys, thanks. Chuck, if you're going to be at the PD match, would you mind bringing last years map again. Now that I know a little more than I did, I'd like another glance at it.
I've been experimenting with nutrition. My training pace has been high enough that my old ass wasn't recovering very well. At best, I was able to do an intense ruck day twice a week in addition to my usual 5K every day with some weights thrown in. Legs always felt like lead, I had no energy, and pretty well felt like crap.
A friend turned me on to a book written by a professional triathlete. It's a vegan nutrition book. I know, I know, vegan's are all whackos. I get that (and have no intention of giving up meat), but the book was pretty convincing so I tried a couple of his "recovery" recipes. For two weeks now, I've followed this guys's plan just for breakfast. All other eating was as usual. To my amazement, it works. I've tried a lot of health food crap over the years, and this is the first time I've seen measurable results. Here is what I've seen so far:
Much faster recovery. I've gone from a big training session 2/wk to 4/wk. In fact, I did two days back to back this weekend and even upped the weight of my ruck the second day. Knowing how I felt two weeks ago, this is nothing short of astounding to me. In addition, I'm running faster on my off-day 5K's and with more energy.
More energy during the workouts. It's not torture to work out anymor and I don't drag into the gym whimpering.
Reduced hunger. The whole food/raw food thing seems to satisfy my hunger much more effectively. Instead of being constantly hungry, I eat what he says and feel satisfied for at least twice as long, maybe 3X.
Weight loss. The recipes are not particularly low calorie, and my dailly calorie count has gone up (I count every calorie every day), but I'm steadily losing weight.
It's working so well I'm now figuring out how to add lunch. I bought a juicer over the weekend and am going to add that, though it's not something he mentions.
If anyone has interest, the book is called "Thrive". http://www.amazon.com/Thrive-Nutrition-Optimal-Performance-Sports/dp/0738212547/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1364225758&sr=8-1&keywords=the+thrive+diet+brendan+brazier
I've been shopping for the final boots for 6 months now. I recently decided on a pair of Asolo boots from REI.
http://www.asolo.com/eng/prod_det.php?area=3&catid=7&itemid=111
These things are amazing. I rucked outside this AM on my normal 10mile track except I took what I thought was going to be a shortcut. Turned out it may have been shorter, but it was so steep going both up and down that my stride didn't get longer than 6 inches for almost 1.5 miles. It was frigging brutal. I'm happy to say that even with a 55# ruck, I didn't even have a hot spot on either foot, let alone a blister. In my old boots, my feet would have been a bloody mess at the end of that.
The heel is a touch high for me, and they may prove to be hot in the summer. In every other respect, they are perfect.
Well, 6 weeks ago my wife and I had a new baby, and I'm finally ready to kick the training into high gear. Tim K is my partner for the 24SAC, and he's got a pretty good head start on me.
Training split for the next four weeks is as follows:
Mon/Thu: run/cardio
Tue/Fri: strength training
Wed/Sat: ruck
Sun: off
Yesterday morning I did 5-minute rounds of climbing an extension ladder with 40# in my pack (I'm running the Eberlestock Gunsliger II). All I had time for was 3 rounds, with 60 second recovery periods in between, but even with the low round count I was drenched. My legs feel pretty good this morning. Tuesday I'll bump the rounds to 6 minutes, and shoot for 5 rounds. I worked out in my new Asolo boots (same ones Tim K was discussing in his previous post). It was my first time wearing them. I continued to wear them all day at work (I have a very physical job). They felt really good. My knees felt better than they have in months. I may have one hot spot, but since the boots are brand new there's no way to really tell yet.
I emailed Rob Shaul of Military Athlete to ask for advice on a training plan. He pointed me to a ruck-based program he's developed. Here's the link: http://militaryathlete.com/page.php?page_ID=12&cart_category_ID=2&&cart_ID=45
It's $75, but I'm thinking about doing it for the 8-weeks directly prior to the event.
Yes, my avatar and Jawbone's are the same. No, we are not gay.
Our latest equipment concern is his ability to spot for me. His rifle is currently wearing a 1-4X. My LRF (Swarovski) is 8X. I thought that might get the job done, but I found it to pretty useless down at the SRM in Raton. Out past 600 yards I couldn't discern hits.
We think we either need to change the scope on his rifle or carry some sort of spotting device. I hate the thought of carrying a spotter, and would probably opt to just try to spot my own shots before carrying one.
You guys who were there last year (Dino, Chuck, etc), do you have a sense of what the carbine shooters were using? Some thoughts about the maximum practical power we could run on the AR? How close were the closest targets for the carbine?
As for training today, I might go run a 5K. Maybe. My legs are hammered from yesterday's abuse so I may just sit on my ass in the loading room and get some things done there.
Yes, my avatar and Jawbone's are the same. No, we are not gay.
Preemptive strike...
The 2 shooting stages I was on the carbine shots were from 150ish to 500ish IIRC . For the most part the rifle guy spotted his own shots but a couple teams humped a spotter around . I wouldn't carry a spotter if it was me . You may be better served with something with 10-15 power on the carbine .
I shot it last year and my partner was running an acog for his carbine. Probably could've done with something that had more magnification but it did alright. I know atleast one other team was running and acog as well and I think I saw a few 3x9. If you guys have any questions about the stages and such feel free to PM me. I'd be doing it again if I wasn't out of the country. It's a good time.
New questions for you guys who were there .
We're both shooters shooting simultaneously, or did they shoot sequentially? I'm trying to figure out if we will be able to spot for each other.
Also, was there any pattern to who shot first (assuming sequential firing), the rifle or the carbine shooter?
The shooting stations that I was on the shooters did not shoot at the same time , all the shooting stages were different but I don't think there were any that the shooters fired at the same time .
Will be rucking to the noon PD match Saturday from I25 and Purcell if anyone wants to join me. I think it's 7 miles one way, I'll be round tripping it as long as my miserable good-for-nothing feet hold up. Stupid feet.
I've been humping the Walker Ranch Loop at least once a week to train, with work and family obligations I'm not as prepared as I'd like to be but it'll have to do. Is anyone aware of any orienteering meets in the boulder area in the next few weeks?
I've been humping the Walker Ranch Loop at least once a week to train, with work and family obligations I'm not as prepared as I'd like to be but it'll have to do. Is anyone aware of any orienteering meets in the boulder area in the next few weeks?
I've been looking for the same in the COS area. At this point, the land nav is my biggest concern.
http://www.rmoc.org/content/view/20/50/
Congratulate my teammate, Jawbone. He scored a sponsorship from SWFA in the form of a scope.
Boots are whipping us both. I've been through a few choices, along with lots of different socks. Everything feels fine for the first 10 miles, then feels like shit once my feet swell up.
Gonna go look at Rocky S2V's tomorrow, and I have my third pair of Asolo's (yet another size change) on order from REI. It's sucks that the only way to identify a problem is to ruck 15 miles.
If we can get our feet squared away, I feel good about our training and fitness.
Do you run into problems at longer distances each time? Meaning, perhaps you're just getting used to rucking those distances?
I think the problem is that the toe box is too small since I have duck feet. It takes 8-10 miles for the accumulated beating on my toes to show up and start causing problems.
I've got hundreds of miles rucking under my belt in the last 6 months, and the problem has appeared about the same mileage every time. I don't think it's something I can eliminate just with more rucking, it's going to take a change in the boots.
We go four weeks from yesterday, so I'm getting anxious to get it sorted soon. I have high hopes for the Rockys. Hoser likes them.
And you're for sure wearing some sort of synthetic sock right?
And you're for sure wearing some sort of synthetic sock right?
Yup, I'm testing everything. Wool, poly, liners, no liners, toe socks, you name it.
Sounds like you're being thorough. That's the limit of my ideas. Carry on and I hope you get it worked out.
Mendocino
06-10-2013, 20:45
Chuck, Dino, RJ and ColoCCW have been really helpful. RJ just told me about this thread at the Steel safari. There are also some competitor interviews on the Dutyrated (http://www.youtube.com/user/DutyRated) Youtube channel. One month left to the SAC! We are penciling out all the challenges this week. This is going to be great (que sinister laugh: "bwahahaha").
I think the boot thing is as solved as it's going to get. I did 20 miles yesterday with 55# in the pack in a brand new pair of Rocky S2V's. Toe sock liners and thick hiking socks made for an amazing blister free 20 miles.
That's not to say pain free, but at least my feet only hurt in proportion to everything else instead of twice as bad as everything else.
I'll fiddle with arch supports a bit now before the race, but I could go in these as-is if I had to. It's a mental relief to have it solved.
Feet are gonna hurt no mater what , no blisters is the important thing . Only way to toughen your feet up is to get out and hump your crap around .
Today's subject is dehydration. As mentioned above, I rucked 20 miles on Saturday. The first 10 were my normal track in the mountains ending back at home. I drank any time I was thirsty and tried to stay ahead of it. At home, I had a sammich and a couple glasses of water, changed socks, etc. I was stopped less than 30 minutes. I then did a 10 mile road march, all hills. Again, I tried to stay ahead of my thirst.
I didn't think to weigh myself right when I finished at 3:00PM. In fact, I didn't weigh myself until the next morning, 18 hours later. At that time I was still 5# light. I'd spent the afternoon and evening just recovering. I didn't realize I was so dry so I wasn't actively trying to rehydrate, but I drank every time I was thirsty.
I'd guess I was 8-10# light when I got back. That's 1- 1.25 gallons I was short. No wonder the last two miles sucked so bad.
The lesson is obvious, but I'm stunned at how not-thirsty I felt when the reality was so different.
You have to start hydrating 24-48 hrs in advance. Drinking water the day of an event is not enough and a quick way to see the inside of an ambulance.
I think the boot thing is as solved as it's going to get. I did 20 miles yesterday with 55# in the pack in a brand new pair of Rocky S2V's.
Stick with me kid. You will go far.
This is everything that's going in my pack. If you see a flaw, speak up.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c173/tkulin/826bf915dd0dca24b73fcadbdc744145_zps7e0a1bdb.jpg
From the top:
Pack
Rain jacket and fleece jacket
Fleece cap
Trash bag for a rain cover for the pack
Trauma kit (required by rule, "rbr"
Gloves
Tarp, rbr
3 loaded pistol mags, rbr
Suppressor
Sling, rbr
Reflective belt, rbr
Socks
Trekking poles/shooting sticks
Squishie
Range finder
Nylon webbing, rbr
Flares, rbr
50 rounds ammo
SPOT beacon, rbr
Camera
Neoprene for boot problems
Mini tripod
GPS, rbr (but may not be used)
Water bottle for mixing drink powders, purification, soaking chia seeds, etc.
Kestrel
Mirror, rbr
Pistol
2- 2 1/2 liter bladders
IFAK contents, most of it rbr
Emergency flashy thing, rbr
Headlamp
Flashing bike light, rbr
AA and AAA batteries, rbr
Emergency blanket, rbr
Land nav crap
IFAK pouch
Food
Ear and eye pro
Rifle
We will have extra everything stashed in a cache bag that will be available at some point. If its a mile from the end, I'm choking Zack out.
I haven't weighed this exact configuration yet, but I'll bet it's 55#.
See any glaring omissions?
If you see a flaw, speak up.
Your picture is upside down.
Not for me. Wierd.
All up weight is 59#. Damn it!
TheBelly
06-25-2013, 21:09
Does each bladder need its own tube? Ounces = pounds, pounds = pain.
How much does each item weigh? Can weight be shaved by having something that weighs less. The first thing that comes to mind is the fleece. Can that be lighter?
Kelly,
I can't figure out how to run two bladders on one hose. I do have a single 3L I could use, but I'm worried about running out. It's forecast to be cooler than expected (highs of 82* Friday, 86*Saturday), but given some recent experience with dehydration it worries me. If I knew we'd see water every 5 miles or so, I'd do the thing on 2 liters and not worry about it.
The fleece is very thin and light. Depending on the forecast, I may dump it. What's your experience? Do I need it with lows of 63*? I'll have a super light poly tee, combat shirt, and the rain jacket. If we're moving I'm not worried about getting cold. Unless it rains. If we get lost at night and have to stop, I'm worried a little about my metabolism crapping out and getting cold.
As far as I can see, the only places I can shave weight are food (probably carrying 2X what I need), water (probably 2 pounds more than necessary, 3 if i go to one bladder) and the suppressor (1#). I might shave 4-5#, best case.
Is it worth it? Should I risk being cold, hungry, and thirsty for 5 pounds? We have the cache that we will get to use at some point, but it might not be available until after I'm in trouble.
Give me some clarity here, please.
Leave the suppressor. You just got back a pound or more.
[QUOTE=Tim K;1199093
Is it worth it? Should I risk being cold, hungry, and thirsty for 5 pounds?[/QUOTE]
Take my opinion with a grain of salt please, but consider your question within the scope of the race. If you are going to be cold, hungry, or thirsty by reducing weight, how long will you have to deal with that discomfort over the grand scale of a 24 hour race?
Dump the suppressor unless the rifle wont shoot without it , thats a pound . Put the med supplies and other loose junk in Ziploc bags and dump the nylon pouches , I'd mark the med stuff so its readily visible big duct tape cross or something . Dump the trash bag for the rain cover . Whats the use for the " neoprene for boot repair " ? Leave the kestral and put an 8 or 9 k card on the gun and call it good.
Water is important , if your moving staying warm wont be an issue , stopping at night when your hot and sweaty you can get cold . I'd be more worried if you end up wet but I've walked dry more than once , snivel gear would be a coin toss with the weather forecast .
TheBelly
06-26-2013, 07:15
Kelly,
I can't figure out how to run two bladders on one hose. I do have a single 3L I could use, but I'm worried about running out. It's forecast to be cooler than expected (highs of 82* Friday, 86*Saturday), but given some recent experience with dehydration it worries me. If I knew we'd see water every 5 miles or so, I'd do the thing on 2 liters and not worry about it.
The fleece is very thin and light. Depending on the forecast, I may dump it. What's your experience? Do I need it with lows of 63*? I'll have a super light poly tee, combat shirt, and the rain jacket. If we're moving I'm not worried about getting cold. Unless it rains. If we get lost at night and have to stop, I'm worried a little about my metabolism crapping out and getting cold.
As far as I can see, the only places I can shave weight are food (probably carrying 2X what I need), water (probably 2 pounds more than necessary, 3 if i go to one bladder) and the suppressor (1#). I might shave 4-5#, best case.
Is it worth it? Should I risk being cold, hungry, and thirsty for 5 pounds? We have the cache that we will get to use at some point, but it might not be available until after I'm in trouble.
Give me some clarity here, please.
the easy way to beat the weight is to not take it. Have things do double duty: a poncho can be a rain coat that fits over your pack (and gun) as well as a nice little heat retention device if you need to lay down for a bit (just make sure you're dry before you sleep).
I've done 25 milers with nothing more than a 2# bag of GORP and two 3L bladders full. My overall weight carried was about 60# (IBA, helmet, knee pads, ruck, and a full combat load for the M4 and M9), so I'd say just be glad that you aren't wearing body armor.
About the bladders: use one and refill it with another. You're going to have admin stops to change socks, shirts, etc. anyways. Just use that time to also refill a canteen. It's an easy way to actually measure how much hydration is going into your body, too.
nowadays, I use a nalgene bottle and refill it from 2qt canteens.
TheBelly
06-26-2013, 07:19
snivel gear would be a coin toss with the weather forecast .
Tim, snivel gear is meant for those that snivel.
TheBelly
06-26-2013, 08:57
Rainjacket and fleece jacket
Fleece cap
Food
Camera
Neoprene for boot problems
Mini tripod
Water bottle for mixing drink powders, purification, soaking chia seeds, etc.
Squishie
Trashbag for a rain cover for the pack
Gloves
Suppressor
IFAKpouch
2-2 1/2 liter bladders
Headlamp
Earand eye pro
These are the things that I think can be improved upon.
Whats the tripod for ?
Camera. Without pics, it's not worth doing. I could leave the tripod though. Weighs 3 oz.
Got 2# out this AM removing one of the interior bags, a little food (I'm still way over on food) and 1# of water.
Good input so far gents, thanks.
Oh, I think I need the can. Without the recoil reduction I don't know that I'll be able to spot my shots.
Raingear/poncho counts as snivel gear....loose the fleece items. Don't forget Toilet Paper/baby wipes.
All that little 3 oz stuff adds up , your all ready carrying 3 things you could stabilize a camera with other than a tripod .
Start eating / drinking more 2 or 3 days prior to build up some reserves , I wouldn't have any food that had to be the sole task at the time , always want to stuff your face on the move .
TheBelly
06-26-2013, 10:15
Raingear/poncho counts as snivel gear....loose the fleece items. Don't forget Toilet Paper/baby wipes.
I think as long as he has a pack cover, then it'll be OK. The pack gets much heavier when it's wet. Good call on the TP/BW.... ohh the days of cutting off a sleeve or using a sock.
TheBelly
06-26-2013, 10:16
All that little 3 oz stuff adds up , your all ready carrying 3 things you could stabilize a camera with other than a tripod .
Start eating / drinking more 2 or 3 days prior to build up some reserves , I wouldn't have any food that had to be the sole task at the time , always want to stuff your face on the move .
GORP (trail mix)....
TheBelly
06-26-2013, 10:18
Stabilizing the camera.... use a piece of string with a bolt on one end (to screw into the camera) and a bolt on the other end (to weigh the string down). Make it long enough that you can step on it when you're standing up. Pull the string tight, and you've got stabilization for photos.
Plus, it's smaller than a tripod.
Don't have a pack cover, hence the trash bag. It's ghetto.
I was bringing the kestrel mainly because its also an altimeter. I was thinking it might be useful to know elevation as a navigation aid. After looking at a map, I'm not sure there's enough elevation change to make that useful. We're either on a hill or in a valley. Knowing how far up we are on a little hill doesn't seem very helpful. Plus, there's probably going to be weather if the weather witches can be believed so barometric changes would likely render it inaccurate anyway.
I have cards for 6K and 8K. I'll just check when we get there and leave the Kestrel in the truck.
Teammate has the TP, I have the wipes.
BTW, the neoprene is just a little sheet of 1/8" thick foam I cut from some waders. My boots were chewing a hole through my ankle a couple weeks ago and I stuffed that in there to pad the spot. Works like a miracle. It only weighs 1 oz.
I could save some weight with a shorter bipod (using a 9-12 now) and a smaller rear bag. Unfortunately, I'm out of $ to spend on this deal, so I'm stuck with what I have.
Delfuego
06-26-2013, 12:14
I read a write-up from someone that went to a similar competition. He said that one thing he was very happy he brought was a flask of bourbon. It was a nice treat after a long day and he shared it with other competitors. This not only allowed him to make quick friends, but also good karma with other groups in case you need their help!
Don't know if your a drinker or not, but just a thought; and not very heavy! [Beer]
TheBelly
06-26-2013, 12:18
I could save some weight with a shorter bipod (using a 9-12 now) and a smaller rear bag. Unfortunately, I'm out of $ to spend on this deal, so I'm stuck with what I have.
can you use your pack as a modified front rest/bipod?
can you use your pack as a modified front rest/bipod?
Not with any confidence. That has "miss" written all over it.
TheBelly
06-26-2013, 13:35
Not with any confidence. That has "miss" written all over it.
What size of bipod do you need? what attachment method?
I'm using Harris tilters, and they utilize a swing swivel stud. I need a 6", and I can probably borrow one from a local friend. The rear bag is the bigger problem. Smaller, lighter bags are not the kind of thing you find on local gun store shelves, and there isn't a lot of time left.
On the subject of food, I think I'm way overloaded. I've done 10 miles on nothing but a cup of coffee and a hangover. I've probably got enough in my pack to do all 30 miles if I had to, and we have the food in the cache we'll get at some point.
Time to think about the bag issue...
Your rear bag doesn't weight that much and on unknown terrain I'd pick the taller bipod . Field strip all the stuff in you pack of unused / extra packaging .
Once it gets to a certain point you can't ditch any more crap and it is what it is and you just gotta hump that shit .
50ish pounds with gun and water and all your junk isn't horrible , there were guys with 70 plus pounds last year. If your looking to spend money look at the aar's last year and pay attention to the non shooting mental kind of stuff . Pretty sure there will be similar things this year .
I weighed my rear bag, and it's lighter than the typical little cylinder. Dang thing weighs just under a pound. It must be filled with helium. In any case, I agree with you about maybe wanting that extra height. I've been glad to have it down at Raton in the past.
As you say, at some point it's time to just put the damn thing on and hit it.
Back to land nav for a minute. I've been studying and practicing in the field. (Thanks to C Ward and The Belly for the help). While no expert, I'm a little bit competent.
My question is around night navigation. If it's a genuinely dark night, I don't see how it can be done. Short of just using bearing and distance it looks pretty hopeless. There will be little or no moon, and the forecast shows cloud cover is very likely. We could move on roads, but cross country looks very difficult if you can't see the terrain. Am I missing something, or are there some secret ninja tricks to night nav?
Land nav after dark can suck . Same principal as daylight though , find a visible terrain feature on course and move to it and repeat tell you get there . This may be a bush 50 meters away or your buddy out in front of you . Stars , depending on the time involved because they move , peaks and valley's on the horizon and stuff like that can all be used as targets . Still comes down to azimuth and pace count .
If the terrain allows I always liked having the course offset so you ran into a recognizable feature and knew to hang a left or right from there to find the point .
Terrain and situation dictates a lot as to route selection and movement , the best way is almost always not a straight line .
Thanks Chuck. We'll muddle through or get some sleep.
Ruthless weight trimming got my pack down to 53# including 4 liters of water. I'm surprised I got 6# out of it. I doubt there's another 6 oz to be had without carrying less water.
DeusExMachina
06-28-2013, 15:43
What pack are you using, Tim?
Eberlestock Gunslinger 2.
Thanks to all you guys who helped us get ready. We're wheels up at 06:00 Thursday to travel, and hostilities will commence sometime Friday morning.
TheBelly
07-02-2013, 13:51
Good luck out there Tim!!!!
Not_A_Llama
07-02-2013, 14:37
Headed out Thursday AM. Have fun, y'all.
It was good meeting you guys out there at MCP 3. My teammate fell on that steep descent coming in to MCP 4 and tweaked his knee pretty solidly. We think it's just a sprain, but shortly after the infamous "naked dudes with the lady RO" episode it gave up on him and we had to abandon. Disspointing doesn't even begin to cover it.
I hope you guys fared better.
Someone PLEASE post pics from MCP 4. We only got one good one, and I'll put it up when we get home. That was some very silly chit.
rustycrusty
07-08-2013, 07:52
I will shoot a link to some pics when I get a chance later today- no worries llama. Your ass (literally) will remain anonymous.
Bummer to hear about the knee injury. Seems as though it was the way to go. Hope recovery is quick.
Have to congratulate Mr. Smith on organizing a race... Pulling from the best trained folks in the country, innumerable teams with SF association, big time industry sponsorship, and adventure racers (doing the best out of all)... Not a single one was able to finish the coarse...
The two closest teams made it within 2 checkpoints of the finish line before going over the 40 hour limit... The majority of teams were pulled out before the halfway point (halfway viewed as reaching at least 9 checkpoints out of 18- regardless of skipping).
brutal. Full write up to come.
SA Friday
07-08-2013, 11:33
I will shoot a link to some pics when I get a chance later today- no worries llama. Your ass (literally) will remain anonymous.
Bummer to hear about the knee injury. Seems as though it was the way to go. Hope recovery is quick.
Have to congratulate Mr. Smith on organizing a race... Pulling from the best trained folks in the country, innumerable teams with SF association, big time industry sponsorship, and adventure racers (doing the best out of all)... Not a single one was able to finish the coarse...
The two closest teams made it within 2 checkpoints of the finish line before going over the 40 hour limit... The majority of teams were pulled out before the halfway point (halfway viewed as reaching at least 9 checkpoints out of 18- regardless of skipping).
brutal. Full write up to come.
Man, I was very interested in training and attempting this course, but after hearing this combined with the information the guns are basically packweights for the purpose of the competition, it doesn't sound like it's for me.
rustycrusty
07-08-2013, 16:59
http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag11/deconpic/IMGP0223_zps0c752c49.jpg
http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag11/deconpic/IMGP0229_zps2252ea8c.jpg
http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag11/deconpic/IMGP0230_zpsc71e070a.jpg
http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag11/deconpic/IMGP0227_zps5c66e7d4.jpg
Desolate. Some of the worst terrain as far as footing goes- seems like 80% or more was loose shale the size of my hand to the size of my head.
pics of the pond didn't come out- shame really- just looks like a bunch of grown men getting naked in the desert in the middle of the night, and I guess it really was.
DeusExMachina
07-09-2013, 12:42
Man, I was very interested in training and attempting this course, but after hearing this combined with the information the guns are basically packweights for the purpose of the competition, it doesn't sound like it's for me.
I'll relay what I heard from Not_A_Llama: "It's interesting when you quit half way, the sniper never fires a shot, and you still place #8 at the Sniper Adventure Challenge."
http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag11/deconpic/IMGP0223_zps0c752c49.jpg
http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag11/deconpic/IMGP0229_zps2252ea8c.jpg
http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag11/deconpic/IMGP0230_zpsc71e070a.jpg
http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag11/deconpic/IMGP0227_zps5c66e7d4.jpg
Desolate. Some of the worst terrain as far as footing goes- seems like 80% or more was loose shale the size of my hand to the size of my head.
pics of the pond didn't come out- shame really- just looks like a bunch of grown men getting naked in the desert in the middle of the night, and I guess it really was.
Send me that last one via email, would you? We forgot to take pics of the shooting stage and would love to have that one of us.
Timkulinstudios@aol.com
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