This used to be US

[Melvin]

Shanghai 1990 and 2010

http://twistedsifter.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/shanghai-then-and-now-1990-vs-2010.jpg

[Zombie Steve]

Quite true...

[Byte Stryke]

just wow...
nice to see they are spending our money well :(

[Kraven251]

used to have a pic like that for Mumbai

[hatidua]

That's the result of outsourcing. -if you are where things are being sourced from now.

[bogie]

I see your point, but they hide the $hit-smeared rubble well. And how about this more accurate picture of Shanghai when the breeze isn't blowing... They destroy as well they prosper...

http://www.davidtracey.ca/wp-content/uploads/Smog-over-Shanghai-020.jpg

[KestrelBike]

I see your point, but they hide the $hit-smeared rubble well. And how about this more accurate picture of Shanghai when the breeze isn't blowing... They destroy as well they prosper...

http://www.davidtracey.ca/wp-content/uploads/Smog-over-Shanghai-020.jpg

I don't understand how they can pump that much smog/smoke into the air to make it like that. Is the city ringed by tire-burning factories??

[dwalker460]

Thats nothing compared to turn of the century Detroit/Chicago/etc. here in the US.

[bogie]

I don't understand how they can pump that much smog/smoke into the air to make it like that. Is the city ringed by tire-burning factories??

LOL probably... the chinese peasents are forced to burn tires to stay warm while the chicom leaders and factory owners are living large in the skyscrapers.


Thats nothing compared to turn of the century Detroit/Chicago/etc. here in the US.

I'm sure the Chinese would agree.

[hatidua]

They destroy as well they prosper...


The Chinese are using up resources and creating pollution at a good clip to be sure, but the U.S. is the LAST nation on this planet that has the right to point a finger at them in that regard. We took the gold medal in that sport, they are just clamoring for second place.

[bogie]

Hindsight is 20/20. The US has made a conscious effort since we began to understand the effects of pollution on air quality. The Chinese have that knowledge at the conception of their industrial progress, and apparently don't give as much of a $hit as we do. They could not compete on a global scale if they were held to the same standards as the rest of the world when it comes to pollution.

[dwalker460]

I'm sure the Chinese would agree.

Yanno,say what you want, but the Chinese lead the world in clean air technology right now, mostly because they looked at the US and Europe back at the turn of the century and said thats no good, we can do better. And they are. Sure they have built factories with out of date tech because they needed the production, but while that is going on they have been building new, higher tech factories that are not only efficient and high production, but also clean. Those are coming on-line now and in the next ten years will out-pace the entire rest of the world.
They have a great advantage in that their government is very invested in their industry doing well, so unlike ours, where the government does nothing but get in the way, their government actually helps them do both clean the air AND make money. Its a concept that our eco-weenie backwards ass PC crowd should read up on. The companies I did business with in Shenzhen were all very proud of how efficient their factories were and how clean they ran.
So yeah, they have their issues, but at least they are trying.

[KestrelBike]

Yanno,say what you want, but the Chinese lead the world in clean air technology right now, mostly because they looked at the US and Europe back at the turn of the century and said thats no good, we can do better. And they are. Sure they have built factories with out of date tech because they needed the production, but while that is going on they have been building new, higher tech factories that are not only efficient and high production, but also clean. Those are coming on-line now and in the next ten years will out-pace the entire rest of the world.
They have a great advantage in that their government is very invested in their industry doing well, so unlike ours, where the government does nothing but get in the way, their government actually helps them do both clean the air AND make money. Its a concept that our eco-weenie backwards ass PC crowd should read up on. The companies I did business with in Shenzhen were all very proud of how efficient their factories were and how clean they ran.
So yeah, they have their issues, but at least they are trying.

I see what you're saying, but am forced to take it with a grain of salt when I look at their high speed bullet trains that in one instance turned into bullet coffin, with reports that they just filled in the earth where the thing crashed while victims were crying from the rubble.

[bogie]

Yanno,say what you want, but the Chinese lead the world in clean air technology right now, mostly because they looked at the US and Europe back at the turn of the century and said thats no good, we can do better. And they are. Sure they have built factories with out of date tech because they needed the production, but while that is going on they have been building new, higher tech factories that are not only efficient and high production, but also clean. Those are coming on-line now and in the next ten years will out-pace the entire rest of the world.
They have a great advantage in that their government is very invested in their industry doing well, so unlike ours, where the government does nothing but get in the way, their government actually helps them do both clean the air AND make money. Its a concept that our eco-weenie backwards ass PC crowd should read up on. The companies I did business with in Shenzhen were all very proud of how efficient their factories were and how clean they ran.
So yeah, they have their issues, but at least they are trying.

I won't dispute that they have made tremendous advances in manufacturing technology. You obviously know a lot more about it since you travel there and deal with them. However, the factories can be run my Mr. Clean himself... It's things like the coal power production to run their industrial base, the exponential increase in automobiles, and their sheer production of raw materials (like steel) that are contributing to their pollution issues.

And... their government is interested in lining their own pockets and oppressing the freedoms of their own people in the process.

[dwalker460]

We dont even have bullet trains... and still manage to have train wrecks. In fact, every other country in the world has high speed transport trains, and some asshat poiiticians in the Northeast just proudly unveiled our latest "high speed" train, which does a whopping 85mph.
While I have a lot of National pride, I am not stupid enough not to learn from the mistakes of the past and our current society. China is a completely different country, and NOT the US, does not share our values, or morals, just like Saudi Arabia or the rest of the Middle East, or pretty much anywhere else in the world, so its a sort of lunacy to try and make what they do make sense to our values and morals.

[bogie]

I am not stupid enough not to learn from the mistakes of the past and our current society. China is a completely different country, and NOT the US, does not share our values, or morals, just like Saudi Arabia or the rest of the Middle East, or pretty much anywhere else in the world, so its a sort of lunacy to try and make what they do make sense to our values and morals.

Agreed that we need to look at history and learn from our past mistakes. I don't know what the answer is, but I do know that currently policy on China is not working well for us, and long term will cause problems for both countries.

[dwalker460]

And... their government is interested in lining their own pockets and oppressing the freedoms of their own people in the process.


And ours isn't? Looked around lately? Up with current events much?

Difference here is CULTURE. The Chinese culture is one of singular leadership- they have had kings, prime ministers, and now "Communist" leader, but always a singular leadership entity and thats how they have always been. Again, try not to force our idea of whats "proper government" onto others,.

As an aside the entire country is probably the last bastion of pure capitalism in the world. It is almost ammusing that as WE become more socialist, they become more capitalist. Didya know they are steadily privatizing health care? Started with dental, now moving to urgent care, ambulance services, and soon will be in actual hospitals. Kinda PROVES that government healthcare sucks doesnt it?

[bogie]

And ours isn't? Looked around lately? Up with current events much?

Of course our politicians are screwing us. You can't throw a cat without hitting a crooked politician. I'll expand post #16. The whole point of this thread (at least IMO) is that our we are hosed at the expense of China. US/China policy is not working. We cannot produce as much as we consume. China cannot consume as much as it produces due to a huge population and very low pay. This results in the problem, a rapidly growing trade imbalance. China's problem is much worse than ours, yet our policymakers are not using this to our advantage and forcing them to correct the appreciation of their currency to bring things in check.

Why is that.....???????????? lobbying groups, bribes, special interests, wall street, multinational corporations, etc. wield more influence in our country than voters. Who gets hurt........??????????????? American middle class, and the chinese low income "slave" labor class.

[WETWRKS]

I'm sorry but we will see where China (Mexico...and any of the other third world countries) are in 10 years. I don't expect there to be a bit of change for the better. This environmental garbage is nothing but another liberal tool to use against the American public. They keep beating this drum but only expect the US to make changes.

[dwalker460]

There is nothing "third world" about China, and it changes for the better(depending on whos definition of "better" your using) almost daily. They think 100 years ahead, the average US citizen is lucky to think ahead to the next paycheck or .gov handout.
Most of us should very seriously do a lot more research into the actual truth of the Chinese rather than just base our entire perception of them off of stupid assumptions.Wetwrks I have no idea what drum your talking about, the US .gov and liberal political machine wants to dictate tot he Chinese how to base thier currency, how to pay thier employees, and how to manage thier resources, same as they do to us. The only difference is the Chinese still has an actual economy not based in debt.

[Clint45]

I don't understand how they can pump that much smog/smoke into the air to make it like that. Is the city ringed by tire-burning factories??

They have nothing like EPA, or OSHA for that matter, regulating pollutants.

[dwalker460]

Of course our politicians are screwing us. You can't throw a cat without hitting a crooked politician. I'll expand post #16. The whole point of this thread (at least IMO) is that our we are hosed at the expense of China. US/China policy is not working. We cannot produce as much as we consume. China cannot consume as much as it produces due to a huge population and very low pay. This results in the problem, a rapidly growing trade imbalance. China's problem is much worse than ours, yet our policymakers are not using this to our advantage and forcing them to correct the appreciation of their currency to bring things in check.

No, the point is that China is expanding at a pace never before seen in history. The best rock you can throw is how "they" treat thier workforce? Are you kidding me? They work for a given amount of pay every day, just like here. A big difference is that since they are a different culture, one that is not based in debt. One where a family will save for years to put thier kids through school rather than cry about needing .gov assistance to do so. One where, when surveyed, the number one complaint about thier government is corruption, and they are taking it seriously. Every year there are more and more reforms, and more and more crooked politicians, managers, etc. are being brought to justie. And justice in China is serious. Drug trafficking is punishable by death, by firing squad. So is pornography, so is rape, so is a lot of other things. No 10 years of appeals while the public pays for a criminal to live on the public dole.
A few years ago a contractor/consultant to my wifes employer was caught using a schoolmate connection to copy a classified database put together by the Chinese government regarding oil, gas, and other natural resource deposits, mining efforts, etc. with the intent to sell it to the company for a lot of money. The Chinese caught him red handed. He was fined 30,000USD and sentenced to 7 years in Chinese prison. It goes without saying he lost all his clients. They are tolerating corruption less and less, unlike OUR media and .gov, which routinely manage to lie, cheat, and steal from the public. Enron? Benghazi? Yeah, exactly WHERE is the corruption? Might be time to stop pointing those fingers and start looking into what the truths are.


Why is that.....???????????? lobbying groups, bribes, special interests, wall street, multinational corporations, etc. wield more influence in our country than voters. Who gets hurt........??????????????? American middle class, and the chinese low income "slave" labor class.

The middle class eh? You realize that by the .gov definition most gun owners and in fact most professional people in out society are considered to be "wealthy"? Yeah yeah yeah, blame it on the rich, but you really only need to look as far as the politicians that are consistently allowed to be elected that no longer hold traditional American values. What can you do about thay? I dunno, but pointing a finger and saying "Well China is worse" isnt helping things. Concentrate at home maybe?

[dwalker460]

They have nothing like EPA, or OSHA for that matter, regulating pollutants.


Not entirely true. They have regulations, and again, they are currently the world leader in clean air technology.

Look folks, I have been over there and done business with them. Do bribes happen? Hell yeah, same as they do everywhere else in the world. Only when ya get caught, its not a slap on the wrist.
Are they polluting? Sure, same as we are. Big difference is that instead of wasting thier tax dollars on bullshit like solar energy, electric cars that no one wants or even work, etc. they are spending those dollars on reconstruction, technological advances that actually work, etc.
Do they have issues? Oh yeah, big time. Would I want to live there? Not really I have an apartment there and my wifes family owns a couple more, but since I am a Southern Tennessee Hilljack I dont really fit in over there, although I have a good time when I visit.

[Ridge]

Mandatory


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2zlPNGuPbw

[bogie]

No, the point is that China is expanding at a pace never before seen in history. The best rock you can throw is how "they" treat thier workforce? Are you kidding me? They work for a given amount of pay every day, just like here. A big difference is that since they are a different culture, one that is not based in debt. One where a family will save for years to put thier kids through school rather than cry about needing .gov assistance to do so. One where, when surveyed, the number one complaint about thier government is corruption, and they are taking it seriously. Every year there are more and more reforms, and more and more crooked politicians, managers, etc. are being brought to justie. And justice in China is serious. Drug trafficking is punishable by death, by firing squad. So is pornography, so is rape, so is a lot of other things. No 10 years of appeals while the public pays for a criminal to live on the public dole.
A few years ago a contractor/consultant to my wifes employer was caught using a schoolmate connection to copy a classified database put together by the Chinese government regarding oil, gas, and other natural resource deposits, mining efforts, etc. with the intent to sell it to the company for a lot of money. The Chinese caught him red handed. He was fined 30,000USD and sentenced to 7 years in Chinese prison. It goes without saying he lost all his clients. They are tolerating corruption less and less, unlike OUR media and .gov, which routinely manage to lie, cheat, and steal from the public. Enron? Benghazi? Yeah, exactly WHERE is the corruption? Might be time to stop pointing those fingers and start looking into what the truths are.



The middle class eh? You realize that by the .gov definition most gun owners and in fact most professional people in out society are considered to be "wealthy"? Yeah yeah yeah, blame it on the rich, but you really only need to look as far as the politicians that are consistently allowed to be elected that no longer hold traditional American values. What can you do about thay? I dunno, but pointing a finger and saying "Well China is worse" isnt helping things. Concentrate at home maybe?

You've made it clear that mocking me is more important to you than having a discussion. You are in denial about the basic economic fundamentals I described, as you neglected to address those, and instead decided to twist my words into something about class warfare. I'm disgusted by the left's intentional impoverishment of the lower class for political gain. I'm unsure of your basis for lumping me in that category with the "occupiers" as I've done nothing on this forum but adhere to conservative principles.

[dwalker460]

I am not mocking you. I agree with you that the Left is intentionally impoverishing the US citizen. I do not agree in comparing what the Left is doing in this country to pretty much anything going on in China, or actually pretty much anywhere else in the world.

[centrarchidae]

And justice in China is serious. Drug trafficking is punishable by death, by firing squad. So is pornography, so is rape, so is a lot of other things. No 10 years of appeals while the public pays for a criminal to live on the public dole.


Indeed. And if we repealed the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh, and Eighth Amendments and got out of the cops' way, we could have swift and sure justice as well.

[USAFGopherMike]

Aren't the 4 most polluted cities in the world in China?