Beginner here need advice on glass

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

I've been shooting since I was a young kid but I don't have a lot of long range experiance other then a few years of hunting. I just traded my ak47 for a remington 700 vfs .308 with h&s precision stock, badger tactical bolt knob, trigger and bolt work, and a ior 20moa base, and now I need some nice glass. My budget is going to be $900 and I like mil dot reticles and what rings should I get. I would like to be able to shoot to 1000 yards but that is not the purpose of the gun it will be used for hunting and the occasional zombie.

[Cthulhu]

Someone who knows more than I should be along shortly to answer. I'm a n00b to precision stuff but here's what I've found. If you like a Mil reticle get Mil turrets. For a variable power I prefer a FFP but you'll pay more than you would for SFP. FFP will help you to approximate distance more easily because the size of the mil-dots will change with magnification.

SWFA makes some nice bomb proof scopes. They have a nice 3-9 x42 (http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-3-9x42-Tactical-30mm-Riflescope-P50716.aspx) for $600. That might be a little underpowered for the 1000 yd stuff though.

[Trigger Time 23]

Vortex makes some stuff in the $900 range.

[Tim K]

Why a mil dot reticle? There are lots of other good choices, especially if the adjustments are in MOA.

With that budget, I'd shop for a used Leupy.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3887342&gonew=1#UNREAD

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3845861&gonew=1#UNREAD

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

I just like to have other points on the reticle. I'm not a fan of bdc like reticles

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

Like I said I'm not that experienced in the lingo yet when I say mil dot I'm thinking of a scope that has multiple cross hairs or point of aim I guess, not just a standard BDC reticle. I need some education in this area I think. Also what is the 3rd knob for all the scopes I've ever had only had 2 knobs?

[asmo]

For ~$900 you should really look at the Bushnell HDMR.. I have two of them and really like them.

[Delfuego]

I own and have been very happy with all 3. They are FFP w/ mil adjustments. I think any would treat you very well and are within your price range. I do not hunt, but have gotten into LR in the last few years. They may be heavy for a hunting rig. A 2.5-10x PST or the SWFA 3-9x might be better for hunting. Leupold's are always very nice and Tim knows his stuff...

http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-HD-5-20x50-Tactical-30mm-Riflescope-P51653.aspx
&
http://swfa.com/Vortex-4-16x50-Viper-PST-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P44561.aspx
&
http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-10x42-Tactical-Riflescope-P53712.aspx


Also what is the 3rd knob for all the scopes...?That is a side focus knob...

[Cthulhu]

Like I said I'm not that experienced in the lingo yet when I say mil dot I'm thinking of a scope that has multiple cross hairs or point of aim I guess, not just a standard BDC reticle. I need some education in this area I think. Also what is the 3rd knob for all the scopes I've ever had only had 2 knobs?

The third knob I think you're looking at the parallax adjustment.

Here's a good overview on Mils (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5AGsHSIsVo) and one on MOA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA2PZBD5Tjg)

Mils and MOA are just two ways of measuring angles. Neither one is better than the other, but to keep your life simple it would be smart to go Mil/Mil or MOA/MOA.

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

The third knob I think you're looking at the parallax adjustment.

Here's a good overview on Mils (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5AGsHSIsVo) and one on MOA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA2PZBD5Tjg)

Mils and MOA are just two ways of measuring angles. Neither one is better than the other, but to keep your life simple it would be smart to go Mil/Mil or MOA/MOA.

thanks that helped a lot I prefer the moa system

[Tim K]

I'm an MOA guy myself. This would be decent.

http://swfa.com/Vortex-6-24x50-Viper-HS-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P51720.aspx

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

That's pretty sweet, where is vortex made?

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

Also in the precision rifle porn thread I see everybody has scope rings with like 12 screws. Where do I find them? I'm guessing they are the most stable. Also will they work with my base

[Hoser]

thanks that helped a lot I prefer the moa system

Give me mils anyday.

Much easier to understand and dial to. Fewer numbers.

[Hoser]

Also in the precision rifle porn thread I see everybody has scope rings with like 12 screws. Where do I find them? I'm guessing they are the most stable. Also will they work with my base

Those are Spuhr mounts. $420-ish.

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

Those are Spuhr mounts. $420-ish.


Ouchie ok what is good enough for what I'm trying to accomplish

[SA Friday]

Here you go. Cry once and be done with it.

http://www.ar-15.co/threads/87799-Night-Force-5-5x22-with-Badger-Rings

Great seller too.

[Hoser]

Here you go. Cry once and be done with it.

http://www.ar-15.co/threads/87799-Night-Force-5-5x22-with-Badger-Rings

Great seller too.

That would work perfect.

[NGCSUGrad09]

That's pretty sweet, where is vortex made?

The cheap ones are Chinese, the mid grades are Philipino and the expensive ones are Japanese.

[nisils14]

Ouchie ok what is good enough for what I'm trying to accomplish

Best bang for your buck imo is Seekins. Nightforce and Leupold also have nice rings. Burris are decent if you're on budget.

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

Here you go. Cry once and be done with it.

http://www.ar-15.co/threads/87799-Night-Force-5-5x22-with-Badger-Rings

Great seller too.



i would love to get that but I should say I don't have the cash at the moment and that is quite far out of my range. 900 on something that isn't a car, gun, or motorcycle is a big leap for me

[asmo]

Here you go. Cry once and be done with it.

http://www.ar-15.co/threads/87799-Night-Force-5-5x22-with-Badger-Rings

Great seller too.

As much as I hate NF as a Company -- great deal on good glass.

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

As much as I hate NF as a Company -- great deal on good glass.
What's wrong with night force?

[asmo]

What's wrong with night force?

I have a personal hatred due to them fucking me (for a year) on something. I won't buy from them in the future.

[Cthulhu]

i would love to get that but I should say I don't have the cash at the moment and that is quite far out of my range. 900 on something that isn't a car, gun, or motorcycle is a big leap for me

Stay within your budget but glass is really the most important part of your precision setup. What you have budgeted should get you some nice glass. Vortex is good glass if you're buying new. Check out snipers hide too. There's always someone flipping some nice glass to upgrade to a NF/US Optics/Schmidt & Bender or the like.

[BPTactical]

Nikon, most under rated glass in the industry.

[islandermyk]

Reticle... pick one you can live with and learn from.

I love'em MIL on MIL stuff... it's fun learning to range things and all that sh*t.
First Focal is always a plus.
Power on your scope... I don't think you could ever have to much or even enough, but you could end up having to little or not enough.
Precision on a budget... no such thing. Before you know it.. you'll be blowing through that budget in a blink on an eye... yes... you will cry once... only once [Beer]

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

What does first focal plane mean? What are the advantages?

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

Why can't I join snipers hide?

[Pike10]

Why can't I join snipers hide?

Are you a "Sniper"?....there you go! Honestly, Frank is working on changing forum providers, site is going to be up and down for a little while while that work takes place.

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3869113#Post3869113
Would this be a good choice?

[TheBelly]

What does first focal plane mean? What are the advantages?

It means the reticle zooms with the rest of the image. When you go from 6x out to 24x the reticle gets bigger as well.

advantage is that 1 mil is one mil, no matter the magnification power.

[Hoser]

Why can't I join snipers hide?

You didnt say please to Lowlight.

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

You didnt say please to Lowlight.
I sent a email

[wolffo]

if you think you're really going to get into it seriously
payup for something nice (leupold on the low end)
I am a cheap bastard and I swear I never thought I would ever say something like that
you'll also be better able to flip it later for somthing else
I started with super sniper, then nikon, then leupold (bought used) and now US optics (bought used)
maybe look for a used nightforce in the $900 area on snipershide
send the guy a direct email

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

I was talking to them on Facebook and they are updating the site, that is why I can't join. I am considering a leupold mark 4 lrt. Once I get my tax refund and sell some custom knives I have I will have a better idea on my budget but I definatly don't want to change the scope in a couple years I would like this to be my go to rifle. I also need to find some reloading components.

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

Also what will illumination do for me is it nesisary? I don't shoot in the dark.

[Cthulhu]

What does first focal plane mean? What are the advantages?

Speaking of Snipers Hide. Here's a good explanation of FFP vs. SFP by Frank.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h-lOZ4vxk0

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

Do you guys think it is safe to buy a used scope? Most have a transferable warranty correct? That video helped I've always used sfp and just held over I like how I can use math with moa and ffp to put me right on target. Also do most of these scopes help you estimate range?

[Hoser]

Also do most of these scopes help you estimate range?

Rangefinders do that for you.

[silentshooter]

A FFP scope with mil dots or a calibrated moa reticle can be used for accurate range estimation if you know the aproximate size of the item you are ranging against.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[Cthulhu]

Do you guys think it is safe to buy a used scope?

- I'd say its a lot like buying anything used. Research the buyers feedback.


Most have a transferable warranty correct? That video helped I've always used sfp and just held over I like how I can use math with moa and ffp to put me right on target. Also do most of these scopes help you estimate range?

- Not sure about the warranty. A good manufacture will take care of you and back up their product unless its been very abused. Glad the video helped.

- You can use either FFP or SFP to Mil/MOA distance. The trick with SFP is you need to use the correct magnification to get an accurate range estimation.

Here's a better explanation of SFP ranging.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhhckOLuiQQ

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

Rangefinders do that for you.


I figured I could get one later on but I don't want to rely on electronics all the time.

[Cthulhu]

I figured I could get one later on but I don't want to rely on electronics all the time.

Range finders will also cost you some $$$. Try getting good at estimating distances by sight as well.

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

Range finders will also cost you some $$$. Try getting good at estimating distances by sight as well.

exactly my brother has a decent one that goes out to 1000 yards so I can double check my estimations.

[Cthulhu]

exactly my brother has a decent one that goes out to 1000 yards so I can double check my estimations.

Bingo!

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

and also Im a member at WHAC and the range goes out to 550 yards I think at different ranges so i get plenty of time to practice.

[Tim K]

Good luck estimating longer ranges well enough without a LRF. If you guess 500 and the actual is 550, you'll be off on elevation by almost a foot. It gets worse the longer the range.

The development of the LRF is the single most important development in long range shooting, even more so than the telescopic sight. Without accurate range estimation, the most accurate rifle in the world topped by the best glass is useless for making first round hits at extended ranges.

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

like i said I will get one later down the road because a LRF is useless without a scope right. Plus when Im at the range Im with my brother and he has one. But before I take any long range shots at animals I will get one.

[islandermyk]

Good luck estimating longer ranges well enough without a LRF. If you guess 500 and the actual is 550, you'll be off on elevation by almost a foot. It gets worse the longer the range.

The development of the LRF is the single most important development in long range shooting, even more so than the telescopic sight. Without accurate range estimation, the most accurate rifle in the world topped by the best glass is useless for making first round hits at extended ranges.

+1 on this one... I would love to get another/better LRF... I've been dependent on the odometer of my vehicle alongside with GPS [LOL]


like i said I will get one later down the road because a LRF is useless without a scope right. Plus when Im at the range Im with my brother and he has one. But before I take any long range shots at animals I will get one.

If you picked a reticle to help range things... it'll be fun to learn. I have one of those mil-dot master slide cards ( http://www.mildot.com/ ) and it's pretty dead nuts. With your glass you measure'em sized target and ♪TA-DA♫ you get a pretty good range. The only thing that sucks.... out pass 300 yards (based on .308) not getting an exact range will make you scratch your head and possibly make you go bold on certain spots on your head [Coffee] That extra 20 yards can throw sh*t off... and then some. Regardless, it's all in great fun learning all this shit [Beer]

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

+1 on this one... I would love to get another/better LRF... I've been dependent on the odometer of my vehicle alongside with GPS [LOL]



If you picked a reticle to help range things... it'll be fun to learn. I have one of those mil-dot master slide cards ( http://www.mildot.com/ ) and it's pretty dead nuts. With your glass you measure'em sized target and ♪TA-DA♫ you get a pretty good range. The only thing that sucks.... out pass 300 yards (based on .308) not getting an exact range will make you scratch your head and possibly make you go bold on certain spots on your head [Coffee] That extra 20 yards can throw sh*t off... and then some. Regardless, it's all in great fun learning all this shit [Beer]



yeah I wish I could have got something like 7mm or 300winmag that flys a little flater but I see alot of dudes shooting .308 out to 1000 yards so I know it can be done and I like a good challenge

[islandermyk]

yeah I wish I could have got something like 7mm or 300winmag that flys a little flater but I see alot of dudes shooting .308 out to 1000 yards so I know it can be done and I like a good challenge

I do all my shooting with .308 and the real challenge is going pass the 1000 yard barrier. Farthest I've hit was at 1400 yards with a Vortex Viper 6.5-20x44 for glass, but it was like 1 hit out of 8 or 10 shots made. [Coffee]

I have a S&B and that thing got me all cocky and stoopid.... I have that on my .308 right now and I act like I'm shooting a .338lm or some shit trying to go for a mile [ROFL1]

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

ill be happy with 1000 yards, But thats pretty good range for sub $600 scope you sould be proud. Did you aim at the sun?

[islandermyk]

ill be happy with 1000 yards, But thats pretty good range for sub $600 scope you sould be proud. Did you aim at the sun?

Nah... I barely saw the target, but i was getting good splashes from my misses and just kept on holding till I hit it [ROFL1]

For what it's worth.. you do get what you pay for though... [Beer]

[Hoser]

yeah I wish I could have got something like 7mm or 300winmag that flys a little flater but I see alot of dudes shooting .308 out to 1000 yards so I know it can be done and I like a good challenge

Flatter is not the concern. Bullet drop is just gravity, a constant.

What you want is bullets with high ballistic coefficients that get blown around less by the wind and stay supersonic at the ranges you are shooting at.

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

I really like this one looks like my budget is going to go up
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3900341#Post3900341

[islandermyk]

Looks nice...

Just my personal preference... I hated my old scope with mil reticle and moa adjustments with the second focal plane. Is this one a First focal plane?

3.5-15x50... I think that's some good power to go out to 1K yards and maybe more.

Hhhhmmm... I'm not gonna say yay or nay on this one... I'm pretty sure more guys will chime in....

[Cthulhu]

I have an NF F1 and love it. That's a nice scope but it has MOA adjustments and a MLR reticle and that would be the deal breaker for me. Might be why the guy is selling. Notice one guy backed out of the deal already? "Backed out. Sorry, thought it said MOAR."

[ColoWyo]

I really like this one looks like my budget is going to go up
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3900341#Post3900341

I would not recommend that scope simply based on the fact you have a MIL based reticle and MOA adjustments. Wait to find one with matching adjustments and reticle.

I love my F1 with the MLR2 reticle.

[Cthulhu]

I would not recommend that scope simply based on the fact you have a MIL based reticle and MOA adjustments. Wait to find one with matching adjustments and reticle.

I love my F1 with the MLR2 reticle.

Yep. MLR2 reticle here to. Go MOA/MOA or Mil/Mil and save yourself the pain.

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

I pretty sure it's ffp but I still can't join snipers hide to ask questions. I didn't realize it was a mil retical with moa adjustments I definatly don't want that.

[silentshooter]

I pretty sure it's ffp but I still can't join snipers hide to ask questions. I didn't realize it was a mil retical with moa adjustments I definatly don't want that.

Yep, All F1's are FFP. But like most people I can not have a scope in MOA with a MIL Recital

[Delfuego]

That's and NXS not a F1. The F1 will run you around $2k. NXS is SFP only.

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

So what would be better a mark 4 leupold that has ffp and moa/moa or a nightforce that is sfp with moa/moa? is ffp realy that big of a deal? They both seem to be in the same price range (about $1500) but the leupold has mor options but I'm guessing the nightforce is better in some way, or is it just a cooler name?

[NGCSUGrad09]

Leupold does not offer an MOA/MOA option.

The Nightforce has much better glass, more solid adjustments and is generally more robust. There are some good MK 4s out there, but it's really kind of a crap shoot what you'll get. The good thing is Leupold will always fix or replace one no questions asked. However, should you manage to break a NF they'll also take care of you.

[islandermyk]

Just throwing this one out there... I never handled this one, but have seen through youtube and snipershide they're not to bad...

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/435543/bushnell-hdmr-elite-tactical-rifle-scope-34mm-tube-35-21x-50mm-side-focus-1-10-mil-adjustments-first-focal-horus-h59-reticle-matte



Bushnell HDMR Elite Tactical Rifle Scope 34mm Tube 3.5-21x 50mm Side Focus 1/10 MIL Adjustments First Focal Horus H59 Reticle Matte

[TheBelly]

I have the bushnell elite actical 6-24x50. It has all the right features, but the sum is not greater than the parts. It's on a hobby gun, not a duty use gun.

the g2dmr reticle is a little weird, also.

im glad this scope was a gift.

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

Wow somebody likes you if they drop that kind of dough on a gift for you.

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

I just picked up Dino's scope this thing is sick

[islandermyk]

I just picked up Dino's scope this thing is sick

What kind of scope is it?

[TheBelly]

Wow somebody likes you if they drop that kind of dough on a gift for you.

It was Mrs. Belly

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

What kind of scope is it?

Nightforce nxs with badger rings, butler creek caps, and sunshade

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

This one http://www.ar-15.co/threads/87799-Night-Force-5-5x22-with-Badger-Rings

[islandermyk]

This one http://www.ar-15.co/threads/87799-Night-Force-5-5x22-with-Badger-Rings

Congrats! Now you have really entered into a world of shit[Coffee]

I kid! I kid! As Hoser would say... "Welcome to the Darkside.... we do have some cookies!" [ROFL1]

Your off to a really good time.. looking forward to seeing some range reports, shooting and gun pics soon[Beer]

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

This is one thing I'm worried about. The scope rings are nice and torqed on the scope but they fell on the last notch, do I have to move the ring back and re torq the ring? Not a big deal but if its fine I'll leave it. Also I was told to torq the rings to the base at 55ft lb is that correct
http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr286/appliancenation/1050583B-96E4-44D1-A233-8922B6B74DBD-1035-0000014A3904627E.jpg

Heres how it looks, sorry for the crappy iPhone pics
http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr286/appliancenation/1352E06C-873D-41B4-BB59-5535999E60A7-1035-0000014A2A3A95A0.jpg

[Delfuego]

I would remove and reset the ring. Get it right the first time (if possible). Every time you pull off your scope you will be spending cash to re-zero. Ammo ain't cheap! (especially LR ammo +/-$2 per). Be sure you spend time getting the eye relief correct, if not it can really screw with you at higher magnification.
Nice scope by the way!! [Beer] Welcome to the darkside as well...

Now you need a cheek rest, a bipod, a rear bag, a data book, a LRF, a ballistics app and a shooting mat. You see where this is going right? [hammer]

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

yup after doing some research and watching videos I have found scope placement is critical so I'm still dicking with it. I have to take it to the range to get it perfect still and my cheek weld is a bit low still. I was lucky since dino is such a nice guy he sent me a really nice data book. what would be a good bi pod?

[C Ward]

You want the ring clamp engaging the rail on its whole length . 65 IN/LBS on the cross bolt and 15 - 20 IN/LBS on the top cap screws . Nothing is in FT/LBS and going to 55 FT/LBS is going to break stuff .

Build your position and make the scope fit you , not the other way around .

[Tim K]

Build your position and make the scope fit you , not the other way around .

Pay close attention to this. What he's saying has more implications than you might think.

[TommyTwoDogs]

Listen real close when C Ward is talking.

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

Where can I buy a torqe wrench in inch lbs

[car-15]

Where can I buy a torqe wrench in inch lbs
http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=inch+pound+torque+wrench&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=21134976981&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=19265053311417502386&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&ref=pd_sl_845owgzefd_e

[silentshooter]

http://shop.milehighshooting.com/Borka-MG5-Kit-BorkaMG5.htm

I love my Borka Kit

[C Ward]

Sears , Harbor Freight , Snap On , Brownells , Midway , Etc. will all have something that will work .

[Pike10]

Sportsman's Warehouse has the Fat Wrench - it is ajustable and works a great.

[quickdraw]

Borka Kit.

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

I ended up getting the fat wrench at bass pro and they matched cheaper then dirts price of 49.99. It seems nice enough to do the trick. I also just picked up a harris brm-s 6x9 bipod now all I need is a anti cant level. I think I going to get the vortex

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

Woohoo just got a notification from powder vally that 1500 175gr Sierra match kings are heading my way, I'm stoked now!!!!

[islandermyk]

Woohoo just got a notification from powder vally that 1500 175gr Sierra match kings are heading my way, I'm stoked now!!!!

very nice... I hope to hear some good news on my end with some 175gr SMKHPBT's through mid-south shooters...

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

I had a chance to get her zeroed this weekend but I think my elevation might be a bit high since my turret is on the number 3 line on my scope what do you guys think? I'm running a 20 moa base with badger rings and I zeroed it at 100 yards on the center cross hair with 168smk. I'm supposed to be getting my 175 smks today so I was going to zero it again on one of the upper mil marks.

[C Ward]

How much " up " is left above zero ?

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

How much " up " is left above zero ?
im not sure I was hoping someone with a night force could tell me. There are marks on the scope telling how far up your turret is and I'm on number 3 I would guess I'm at least half way up in elevation

[C Ward]

Turn the knob like your dialing elevation and see whats left . Anything 15 mils and above is GTG with 308 .

When the knob gets stiffer is when to stop , the erector is hitting the tube . Forcing it past that will break stuff .

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

Ill check it out tonight

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

Ok I only have 11.8 Mils left in elevation

[Tim K]

Right about 1K yards.

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

That's about as far as I want or expect to go any time soon so I guess it's good for now

[C Ward]

That should go to 1k ish depending on the load . How much angle is on the scope base ? The only way to recover more usable elevation is to put an angled base on . 20 MOA is pretty standard , depending on how much travel is below zero will tell how much more you need .

[C Ward]

Went back and read there was a 20 MOA base on the gun . Make sure the thick side of the base is to the rear , there should be a visible slant with the base compared to the bore line . Where the scope is at is about centered in the travel range and without seeing the gun I'd suspect it is a flat base and not angled .

[ldmaster]

Save your money. And buy night gorse Schmidt and bender. Etc. buy and use any old hunting scope with solid rep and TRAIN without very high quality ammo the edge a high priced scope will give you will be negated by standard ammo. Until you can shoot well out to five hundred yards don't waste money on mid range glass. Once you break 500 yards then high end can make a diff. Until you do any fairly solid scope will work.

How much do you have budgeted for ammo? Vortex is worthwhile even though all their stuff is Chinese made.

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

Save your money. And buy night gorse Schmidt and bender. Etc. buy and use any old hunting scope with solid rep and TRAIN without very high quality ammo the edge a high priced scope will give you will be negated by standard ammo. Until you can shoot well out to five hundred yards don't waste money on mid range glass. Once you break 500 yards then high end can make a diff. Until you do any fairly solid scope will work.

How much do you have budgeted for ammo? Vortex is worthwhile even though all their stuff is Chinese made.



what we have here is a failure to communicate.

I already bought a night force nxs 5.5x22x56 this is one of those threads that has probably progressed futher then it needed to

[soldier-of-the-apocalypse]

also im set up to reload but im in the learning stage of long range precision reloading, and not all vortex stuff is Chinese the high end vortex stuff is is Japanese