Concealed Carry thoughts and questions- advice? Input?

[TheGrey]

My spouse and I recently went through (and received our certificate) a gun safety class, tailored for our firearms and our questions. It was a great class that contained a lot of live fire exercises at the range.
One thing that our gun instructor emphasized is the fact that if we decided to apply for a CCW and carry a concealed gun, we needed to have the mindset for it. There was a lot of discussion on this topic, and the fact that I’m still reflecting on the issue tells me a lot.
He gave a lot of “what if?” scenarios, and suggested that we begin to think about ‘what if’ scenarios and how we would react.
Do you do this? What are some of your ‘what if’ scenarios? For those of you that carry concealed, how does it make a difference in your life? What are some of the drawbacks to carrying a concealed firearm?
Is there any other advice that you might like to offer in relation to concealed carry?
Thank you for your input. J

[Flatline]

You'll get a lot of much longer advice from other people, but I would highlight two things.

1. Be ready to shoot. Know that if you pull your gun, you might kill someone. Pulling your gun and hesitating can get you killed and may be worse than having not done anything at all.

2. Just because you have a gun on you doesn't mean you need to pull it. You don't need to stop a robbery at the gas station, and you don't have draw on someone who just took a garden gnome from your yard (legality aside, ex. is just to make a point).

I go on base almost every day, so I have to plan to be able to leave my gun at home. If you frequent a court house, mail office, etc know where you can bring your gun, where you can leave it in your car, and when you have to leave it at home.

[rondog]

Main thing to remember, IMO, is that a CCW permit does NOT make you a cop or a superhero! Your weapon is only to defend yourself, your family members, and/or any other third party in immediate grave danger. Don't try to be a crimefighter unless someone's life is in danger. Store's being robbed have insurance. Unless someone's been hurt or it appears violence is imminent, stay out of it and try to be a good witness, but be ready to act if the situation goes bad.

JMHO, but it seems to be a common one. CYA above all, and that means keep you and yours safe first. Don't use your gun unless you absolutely have to. Jail/prison sucks, and so does being sued into poverty.

Oh, and never draw or flash your weapon as a "deterrent" either. That can get you in deep shit clear over your head.

[sellersm]

When a life-threatening encounter happens, usually one will live to see another day, and one won't. Decide now: which one are you? It all begins with intent and 'the mind, the will'.

Remember that behind every bullet is a lawyer (or two).

Decide ahead of time: what's worth my life? And then make your actions congruent with that decision...

[dan512]

What if you have to shoot someone at night? Can you ID the target? Do you practice with your weapon mounted or handheld light? Can you run malfunction drills without seeing the gun?

[Armada]

Do you have an attorney. Once I got my CCW I started looking for criminal defense lawyers and keep their numbers handy. Above all don't ever talk to the police and keep your 911 call brief and to the point. It will get played back at your trial.

[whitbaby]

There was a good theme in Massad Ayoob's book In the Gravest Extreme...wherein you have to make up your mind beforehand if you have the willingness to take another person's life. If that time comes you won't have the time to do any soul-searching in that instant.
He says shooting someone is the hardest thing you'll ever have to do and live with, however keep in mind it will be your life or his...

[spqrzilla]

In the Gravest Extreme is still a great read ( the gun advice is all obsolete but the rest of the book is still good).

[Tinelement]

I have 2 scenerios.

1. I am by myself. I can take a licking and hold my own. My "life threatening" threshold is higher than............(see 2)
2. I am with my family, wife, 2yr old boy, and 6 month old daughter.


you do the math.

[Wildboarem]

Grey,
I think one thing that is over looked in the replies so far is awareness. Books have been written on the subject and for me it goes hand in hand with the others have posted. I can look at a situation and try to determine if I have the mindset and will to take another life in Defense and if I reach the point that I must, then odds are probably good that I made a mistake by even being in the situation in the first place. Awareness can keep one out of trouble and potential situations one might not want to be in. I know that awareness is a crucial element of the overall mindset one must have or should have to be armed. Take a look at some of Col. Jeff Cooper's writing along with Ayoob and others.

[Teufelhund]

Some great advice in this thread. I'll share some thoughts my CCW instructor imparted: Keep in mind your life is worth more than the paper in your wallet. Never fire warning shots, nor shoot to wound; if you must shoot, shoot until the threat is stopped. You are responsible for every bullet that leaves your barrel, and you should expect to go to jail (at least temporarily), and eventually court, and pay out a ton of money in legal fees whether you were right or wrong in discharging your weapon. Be the one to call the police - he who calls first is recorded as the victim. Tell the 911 operator where you are, ask for help/an ambulance if you have shot someone, then HANG UP before you say too much. Memorize the phone number of a gun-friendly attorney and never talk to the police; while they may be there to help, they are not your friends. No one ever got out of being charged by convincing the police of his innocence. Firearm skills are perishable, so train as often as possible.

[TheGrey]

Guys,
I am reading all of your advice and absorbing it like a sponge. I'm incredibly thankful for the time you're taking to impart your knowledge.

We will be applying for our CCWs sometime in the near future, but I know deep down that until I get a hell of a lot more practice and understanding under my belt, I am not ready to carry a concealed weapon. I'm not there yet.
And I know it's not a race to get to that point. And that's okay.

I'll be checking those authors out- thank you! I have read On Killing, but it's been a while and I need to re-read it again.

[NGCSUGrad09]

Probably the best advice I've ever had in relation to CCW and avoiding problems was: Don't do stupid things in stupid places with stupid people.

[DHCO]

Carrying should not turn you into a macho tough guy who puts himself into arguments. You need to do everything possible to give the aggressor a way out so that if you do draw your gun, they have made the decision to kill themselves.

[jraddy]

There was a good theme in Massad Ayoob's book In the Gravest Extreme...wherein you have to make up your mind beforehand if you have the willingness to take another person's life. If that time comes you won't have the time to do any soul-searching in that instant.
He says shooting someone is the hardest thing you'll ever have to do and live with, however keep in mind it will be your life or his...

This is number one for me and something you need to decide before you ever CCW. Are you absolutely sure that you can a) take another persons life and b) be able to live with that decision the rest of yours.

[Jeff@CarryOnColorado]

Learn the law. Most attorneys don't even know how to defend self-defense cases.

[Ronin13]

This is number one for me and something you need to decide before you ever CCW. Are you absolutely sure that you can a) take another persons life and b) be able to live with that decision the rest of yours.
THIS! +1 to everyone who puts mindstate as the first thing with carrying... Although I will say that knowing when not to pull the trigger is almost more important than knowing when.

[Mick-Boy]

Misc. thoughts on carrying a gun and violent encounters;

- Mindset is the most important part of a winning game plan. To quote the warrior poet, Drill Instructor Career Sgt. Zim “There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.” (and in this case women). The point is, decide to be dangerous if someone threatens you and yours. Whether it's your trusty hand cannon or a pointy stick, decide long before the fight ever starts that you're going to resist by whatever means available or necessary.

- Fights tend to be fast and violent. They aren't like the movies. You don't get back story or motivations. You don't get to see an incident from multiple perspectives. All you can do is operate on the best information available to you at the time. For people working in the real world, that translates to what you see, hear, smell, etc. Be able to articulate what led you to the conclusion that someone needed the business. Do this articulation to your lawyer.

- Get a shot timer. The clock and the bullet don't lie. Shoot drills on the clock to get faster and maintain accountability of your shots. Marksmanship and gun handling are basic skills. If you find those slipping you need to dial things back until they are where they need to be.

- Train. Train. Train. One of the biggest advantages you can afford yourself is getting your gun handling and marksmanship to the level of unconscious competence. If you don't have to stop and *think* about how to reload your pistol you can be thinking about other things (additional threats, self care/buddy care, calling 911 to get the cavalry rolling, unassing the area, etc). If you're wasting time and effort thinking about the basics then you're not thinking about complex problem solving (which is what is needed when you are/just finished processing threats). YammyMonkey hosts SouthNarc in Colorado. A class like that is an eye opener for most people.

- There is some worthwhile discussion in these two threads if you haven't already read through them.

http://www.ar-15.co/threads/43756-Training-and-Mindset

http://www.ar-15.co/threads/84465-Pistol-proficiency-standards-for-self-defense

[JlazyH]

It sounds like you got into a good class with a good instructor. My oldest son (40 year old) took a class at one of the gun dealers here in town. He told me it was a quick few hr. class on the laws only with nothing else. No range time. I didn't mention it was for his CCW. There was 17 people in his class and they all passed. Great, they are all legal to carry. The problem is they all or most of them had a firearms class and passed that too. No suprise there. Here is what bothers me. There were only 3 out of the 17 that owned a gun yet and 12 had never fired one. I have had a CCW for 20+ years and I understand the thought process on wanting to get their permit before our leaders take that away, but think about it. Now we have 12 or so folks out looking for a gun most will know nothing about but now there packing. [Bang]

[YammyMonkey]

Another thing to consider, in addition to the good info above, is specific to 3rd party defense. Unless you saw exactly what unfolded from the very start, getting yourself violently involved in a 3rd party fight is fraught with issues.

Think about this: You're walking back to your vehicle in the Walmart parking lot and look to your left and see one guy on top of another, beating him senseless. You draw your gun and shoot the guy on top. He was trying to carjack the guy getting beat. Good triumphs over evil and kittens and puppydogs surround you for the rest of your days. What happens if the guy on top was the initial victim and he's holding onto the attacker's knife wielding hand with one of his own hands, and trying to punch the attacker until he stops fighting. You just shot the good guy. Maybe the guy on the bottom raped the 6 year old daughter of the guy on top. Maybe the guy on top was trying to impose some dude-rape on the guy on bottom. How do you know? You don't.

Regardless of the back story, you'd potentially be legally good to go for shooting the guy on top if it looked like he was in the process of beating the other one into severe bodily injury or death. How would you feel if you just killed the dad of the little girl who was raped? The point here is that we probably won't have a clue about what's going on in a 3rd party incident and we need to be very conscious of that. Maybe a lesser level of force is more appropriate, even though the higher level is legal. Maybe the best option would be to paint them both orange with your pepper spray and call 911 while you're running back to the store. Maybe just a bright flash from your Surefire and a "Stop!" using your grownup outdoor voice will suffice.

You also don't know how either of them will react to you. I've seen guys in Simunitions evolutions shoot innocent roleplayers because they thought that person was going to attack them. Todd Green has a story about a guy who freaked out and shot EVERYONE in the room, roleplayers, observers, the video guy, etc. You might end up on the receiving end of a hurtin' when all you wanted to do was help.

In the end, there are no clear cut answers. The bad guy isn't going to stand still at 7 yards and tell you to hand over your cash or he'll draw his gun and shoot you. To me, this ambiguity is what makes the whole mindset issue difficult. It's easy to say we'll do the right thing, but actually having enough information to unquestionably do the right thing is a whole different issue.

[TheGrey]

Another thing to consider, in addition to the good info above, is specific to 3rd party defense. Unless you saw exactly what unfolded from the very start, getting yourself violently involved in a 3rd party fight is fraught with issues.

Think about this: You're walking back to your vehicle in the Walmart parking lot and look to your left and see one guy on top of another, beating him senseless. You draw your gun and shoot the guy on top. He was trying to carjack the guy getting beat. Good triumphs over evil and kittens and puppydogs surround you for the rest of your days. What happens if the guy on top was the initial victim and he's holding onto the attacker's knife wielding hand with one of his own hands, and trying to punch the attacker until he stops fighting. You just shot the good guy. Maybe the guy on the bottom raped the 6 year old daughter of the guy on top. Maybe the guy on top was trying to impose some dude-rape on the guy on bottom. How do you know? You don't.

Regardless of the back story, you'd potentially be legally good to go for shooting the guy on top if it looked like he was in the process of beating the other one into severe bodily injury or death. How would you feel if you just killed the dad of the little girl who was raped? The point here is that we probably won't have a clue about what's going on in a 3rd party incident and we need to be very conscious of that. Maybe a lesser level of force is more appropriate, even though the higher level is legal. Maybe the best option would be to paint them both orange with your pepper spray and call 911 while you're running back to the store. Maybe just a bright flash from your Surefire and a "Stop!" using your grownup outdoor voice will suffice.

You also don't know how either of them will react to you. I've seen guys in Simunitions evolutions shoot innocent roleplayers because they thought that person was going to attack them. Todd Green has a story about a guy who freaked out and shot EVERYONE in the room, roleplayers, observers, the video guy, etc. You might end up on the receiving end of a hurtin' when all you wanted to do was help.

In the end, there are no clear cut answers. The bad guy isn't going to stand still at 7 yards and tell you to hand over your cash or he'll draw his gun and shoot you. To me, this ambiguity is what makes the whole mindset issue difficult. It's easy to say we'll do the right thing, but actually having enough information to unquestionably do the right thing is a whole different issue.

Craaaaaaap. That is very much what my firearms instructor was trying to impress upon us. We're not the police, and we're not trained in reacting to scenarios such as the one you've listed.

I wouldn't have drawn a gun and shot anyone in your scenario. I would have called the police, yelled for help at the top of my voice and used my camera to its best advantage. If I saw a knife or weapon, it'd likely be a different story- but it still would not preclude me from yelling for help, calling the cops and taking video.

I think I am getting to the point that makes me realize that I have a lot of things I may do when confronted with a situation; it's trying to reconcile a responsible manner of utilizing a deadly weapon, when and if scenarios present themselves.