Perhaps we should get started...with a Constitutional Amendment to overturn anti-gun legislation

[Birddog1911]

I was thinking this morning on the way to work. I really hope that these moronic laws don't get passed, but if they should, could a constitutional ammendment overturn them? I know we've got some really smart people on this board; I think we need a constitutional ammendment proposed and on the ballot next year that would prohibit ANY restrictive anti-gun laws, and reverse any that are on the books when (and if) passed.

Moving isn't an option for me any time soon, so I have to stay and fight. I'm just trying to come up with ways to prevent, or overturn, this insanity.

[CO303]

This is the right approach. Don't get me wrong, I'm al for dressing up like indians and taking over the capital, riding them out on a rail, or the truely timeless tar and feathers. I think a constitutional amendment by petiton is our best and most lasting recourse.

[BushMasterBoy]

If a bunch of pot heads can legalize marijuana, I'm sure that we can get the masses to reinforce constitutionally the states gun rights. I can't see the politicians going against the will of the people in this state. Maybe the metro area is different, I don't live there...

[brobar]

I hope, along with such an amendment, that we could get an amendment that holds the owners of an area designated as "gun free" responsible for the lives and well-being of those that they just disarmed. Unenforced gun-free zones are dangerous and puts people lives at risk. I want any place (be it a school, a theater, a mall, a college) who designates their place as a gun-free zone to be financially responsible for any lives lost due to crime at that location. They should have three choices... 1) make their gun-free zone an ENFORCED gun-free zone. The only way you can enforce a gun-free zone is through ARMED security manning metal detectors and making sure every single person who enters the premise goes through that security. 2) They can take out additional insurance for the sole purpose of paying for medical bills to those who are injured (who couldn't protect themselves) or the families of those whose loved ones died (because they couldn't protect themselves). Or option 3) They can allow people to be responsible for their own security and allow concealed carry.

Nobody should be able to disarm a group of citizens in a confined area and then not be responsible for the security of the people they disarmed!!!

[Ronin13]

I guess I can put my proposal here- I just posted this on FB and hope to maybe inspire something... this is not a state measure but a federal measure:

Here is what I propose: the 29th Amendment to the US Constitution- The Constitutional Reaffirmation Act. Not in actual Constitutional law speak, but it covers what it is. Hereby, effective retroactively to 1791, congress can make no law that hinders, infringes, or limits in any way, shape or form any of the Bill of Rights, and such act is no less than treason, punishable by death. Furthermore, any act, law, or ordinance that currently infringes, hinders, or limits any of the Bill of Rights, hereby is null and void.

Included in this act will be: National Firearms Act of 1934, The Gun Control Act of 1968, Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986, The Patriot Act of 2001, the National Defense Authorization Act, and any other act that violates the 29th Amendment/Bill of Rights shall be null and void.


Now, what you're thinking... "Holy crap, that would make grenade launchers, machine guns, and other 'weapons of war' legal!" Yes, you are correct. But it would also instill constitutional carry and allow every law-abiding citizen to freely own whatever they wanted pending passing of a background check and if they can afford it. "But what about people running around with rocket launchers? They can use machine guns to commit crimes!" Well, easy answer to that- CRIMES ARE ALREADY ILLEGAL- What does it matter if you commit robbery or murder with a machine gun? Robbery and murder are already illegal! So why limit and hinder those of us who aren't committing crimes? The Second Amendment (the main point of this proposed act) states very clearly "The right of the people (found by the Supreme Court to mean 'the individual') to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED." That can be interpreted pretty easily- not infringed in any way. The above acts and laws that will become null and void are nothing short of unconstitutional infringement upon the 2nd Amendment and hereby illegal.

[freqlord]

^ amen brother, amen

[Zundfolge]

Ronin, your idea isn't bad but it won't get anywhere.


However we CAN get a state Constitutional amendment on the ballot and I bet it would get significantly more signatures than it needs (Just needs 86,105 signatures to get on the ballot). Like BushMasterBoy said it, if a bunch of potheads can do it why can't we?

Here's the process (http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Laws_governing_the_initiative_process_in_Colorado)

[Ronin13]

Ronin, your idea isn't bad but it won't get anywhere.


However we CAN get a state Constitutional amendment on the ballot and I bet it would get significantly more signatures than it needs (Just needs 86,105 signatures to get on the ballot). Like BushMasterBoy said it, if a bunch of potheads can do it why can't we?

Here's the process (http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Laws_governing_the_initiative_process_in_Colorado)
Then perhaps start it out at the State level and see if it catches on? Like you both are stating, the pot heads did it, it might spread to other states soon, this could work as well.

[ColoFarmer]

And make it simple, something along the lines of anyone instituting or enforcing any unconstitutional laws are subject to felony charges.

We could get the pothead vote (honor their amendment), few other fringe groups, then use it to defend Arcticle 2 Section 13...

[Birddog1911]

Hmm, I was reading the link provided by Zundfolge, and noticed that it says that Colorado citizens have the power to repeal legisilation via veto refererendum. Perhaps this should be a two-part process; constitutional ammendment on one hand, and VR the laws if they get passed.

[sellersm]

Something like this? http://www.ar-15.co/threads/88561-Response-from-Rep-Lois-Landgraf-(HB-1187-Prevent-Enforcement-of-New-Federal-Firearms-Restrictions)

[Teufelhund]

Someone suggested a Recall yesterday for these bastards just voting for their party's agenda regardless of the merit of argument to the contrary. How about we start that process? Anyone have any experience with a Recall?

From the little reading I did (in the Colorado Constitution), it is a lot of legwork, but relatively simple: 1) file a recall petition with the Secretary of State, containing a statement of no more than 200 words declaring why the official should be recalled. 2) get approval from the Secretary of State for the petition. 3) collect signatures on the petition of at least 25% of voters who voted in the last election. 4) send the petition to the Governor, who will schedule a date for the Recall Election.

Are we just outnumbered here by libs who will vote the person back in? Is this just a waste of time?

[Ronin13]

Someone suggested a Recall yesterday for these bastards just voting for their party's agenda regardless of the merit of argument to the contrary. How about we start that process? Anyone have any experience with a Recall?

From the little reading I did (in the Colorado Constitution), it is a lot of legwork, but relatively simple: 1) file a recall petition with the Secretary of State, containing a statement of no more than 200 words declaring why the official should be recalled. 2) get approval from the Secretary of State for the petition. 3) collect signatures on the petition of at least 25% of voters who voted in the last election. 4) send the petition to the Governor, who will schedule a date for the Recall Election.

Are we just outnumbered here by libs who will vote the person back in? Is this just a waste of time?
That's the idea I was thinking, and your fear is the same as mine... I would think Fields would be a for sure goner though, the statement would include that she is emotionally compromised and unable to lead from a rational and logical mindstate. I would hope that since Obama and pot are not on the line then the libs will stay home.

[Teufelhund]

I'd just hate to bend over and take whatever they want to push through while we wait for the next election cycle, if we can do something sooner. I can't think of a more direct way of (peacefully) showing them we are not going to be treated this way. Imagine the result if we were able to successfully oust enough of them to create a Republican majority.

[Birddog1911]

Starting a preemptive recall petition might put them on notice, but we're gonna need a plan to overturn anything that might be passed.

[geo351]

Starting a preemptive recall petition might put them on notice, but we're gonna need a plan to overturn anything that might be passed.
Fox 31 news story say most will likely pass !

[KevDen2005]

Ronin, I'm not sure if I missed it or not. That sounds like an excellent 29th amendment to the US Constitution. What is the proposal for the 28th amendment?

[10mm-man]

Why do I feel like this is another thread leading to nothing but talk? My conference room is available once again for a meeting. I will also put my $$ were my mouth is so call anytime. 720.213.6016 and we can plan..

[Great-Kazoo]

Why do I feel like this is another thread leading to nothing but talk? My conference room is available once again for a meeting. I will also put my $$ were my mouth is so call anytime. 720.213.6016 and we can plan..

Didn't you offer this before?

FWIW: a Constitutional Amendment might require another Constitutional Convention. SOMETHING the VPC, liberals and every one who believes the Constitution is a living document able to be revised at any time. Open that door and you will see a blitz from every anti gun corner of the world push and achieve the elimination of the 2nd Amendment.

Do a state one with enough Valid signatures, it will have to be on the ballot, if not a special election. Keep it simple, no additional shit like responsible for shootings etc. Straight and to the point.

[Birddog1911]

Are there any attorneys on this site, who might be able to help with the wording? I know of one in Limon on Arfcom, who might be willing if no other member here is.

I agree; make the language simple and unambiguous.

[Great-Kazoo]

Are there any attorneys on this site, who might be able to help with the wording? I know of one in Limon on Arfcom, who might be willing if no other member here is.

I agree; make the language simple and unambiguous.

10 MM had offered his services, some funds (as others) and a place to meet. perhaps getting organized then get going. I am sure you are not the only one between here & arfcom who wants to get going. If the eastern co lawyer is on board start there.

[Birddog1911]

Castle Rock would be a good place to meet up. I'll call him today.

[dwalker460]

Couple of observations-

Without O and pot on the ballot, support for dems will be much lower, especially if they pass these anti-gun laws.

While we might not actually be able to recall all of the Dems, I bet that there are enough votes out there to get the petitions done, and they will have to take that seriously.

They know, as we know, there are more pro-gunners than anti-gunners out there. They know that if it goes to a popular vote, say an amendment that makes any anti-gun legislation illegal and void, most if not all gun owners in this state, which is the majority of the state, will vote for it and they will lose. They cannot count on electoral votes or the city folk in Denver and Boulder to bail their collective asses out. Such an amendment would need to be very simple yet effectively worded, without the use of words like "assault weapon" or naming any specific gun or gun type. We need to remove any "wedge" that may be driven between hunters/sportsmen, competitive shooters, plinkers, etc. based on gun type or any other such hooey.

The media is a factor, but honestly have you seen the anti-gun rallys? Counter that with the pro-gun ones? and you are not considering the ranchers, farmers, other rural folk, and those who are gainfully employed and who just cant take the time to make it out to the rallys.

The potheads were smart, they made sure they were on the ballot when O was running for maximum turnout. We need to be smart too. We need to point out the obvious to these legislators and that is that if they pass this, we will put forth an amendment on the ballot and overturn their votes and NEVER let anyone forget which way they voted.

Last thing is education. A lot of folks, even gun owners, have no real familiarity with "assault weapons" or handguns. I know many shooters who have never held an AR or AK and have never even shot a pistol. Lets work to change that. Invite your fellow sportsmen out to the range. Lets sponsor some get-togethers, BBQ's or the like, where hunters/sportsmen can come out and see that we are all the same sort of enthusiast.

[Dingo]

I'm in. (And I live in Castle Rock, so it makes it easy). I'll be the first one to admit I don't know much if anything about the process of a recall, but I would be happy to do some of the grunt work when it starts rolling. My two brothers will help as well, I'm sure.

They used the emotional momentum after Sandy Hook to their advantage... why not let it work for us too? Print up some flyers/educational literature with a picture of teacher huddling the kids under a desk - with a question about how these legislators would prefer to leave them defenseless, rather than give them a chance. I think stuff like that would be an easy sell, and could help.

[10mm-man]

To clarify- office is in DTC, I don't care which way we decide to go, we just need a plan and people willing to commit to plan. We can have several meetings, several locations. I am out until Sat but available for calls. Just can't meet until I return, but you guys can if your motivated and can't wait. Call me I am available!

[Birddog1911]

Well, after today, I hope more members will get behind this effort.

First, recall.
Second, citizen veto.
Third, constitutional ammendment.

[Ronin13]

Ronin, I'm not sure if I missed it or not. That sounds like an excellent 29th amendment to the US Constitution. What is the proposal for the 28th amendment?
Sorry missed this- There was a proposed 28th a few years back that had term limits for Congress... I don't think it got anywhere, but it got attention so I didn't want there to be an confusion.

[mountainjenny]

I'm interested in being involved.

[FlyingAttackPorcupine]

If Prohibition of alcohol and drugs has taught us anything it's that civil disobedience works.

[stevelkinevil]

I LOVE this. I hope that those older among us see something here, having watched so much unfold. Although counter-intuitive it is the lack of logic that has drove the lefts takeover. We being reasonable folks tend to weight and think out our actions in terms of likelihood of success. This is logical and makes all the sense in the world. However the lefty loons have employed an unintended strategy of sorts, what we call death by 1,000 paper cuts was achieved in this way. Outrageous silly demands, backed by a loud minority were "satiated" by giving in just a little, and over time it creeped insidiously to where now up is down and down is up. It was over the long haul an attack on logic. Now we see policy's which are obvious fiscal suicide embraced as obvious, gun control and governmental control which is draconian at best embraced as safety. We must "come out of our shells" as it were and get a little outrageous.

[MAP]

i'm in to help.

[Great-Kazoo]

Sorry missed this- There was a proposed 28th a few years back that had term limits for Congress... I don't think it got anywhere, but it got attention so I didn't want there to be an confusion.


You have some time on your hands, while looking for work & property outside CO. Take the reigns and get er going. Your tag would go from undersized to AWESOME DUDE who took on the Capricious & Arbitrary gun laws of CO.
EVERY LE DEPT WILL want you working for them, the women(without being roofied) will swoon, inflatable dolls will part their seams more willingly, and rainbows will greet our every morning ,just because.

AND MONKY (i know you're out there) will take you to lunch, high atop his valiant steed, w/out expecting any immoral favors.


RONIN !

RONIN !

RONIN !

[Lucas]

I think this is a good route to go. We have the numbers, it's just a matter of getting them together. I sure wish i could do more to help, wish i could be there. I'm stationed in hawaii and feel like a sitting duck but watching very close. If there's anything i can do from here other than make calls and write letters please let me know.

[MarkCO]

Probably a good idea.

If you don't read Bane's blog, you should. He has done yeoman's work on the issue over the past two weeks including at least 2 full days at teh capitol.

Here is his most recent take:

http://michaelbane.blogspot.com/2013/02/for-colorado-what-do-we-do-now.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

[DHC]

Throwing this together kind of quickly, but want to expand on the ideas mentioned above. Not wanting to capitulate on this year's anti-gun legislation (more yet to come, I expect), but it seems all too clear that the Democratic controlled statehouse is hell-bent on enacting restrictive legislation. Assuming their success, we have options. The long-term (2014) option is to vote their asses out of office and insure their replacements are committed to overturning these restrictive laws. No matter what we can do in the short-term, this goal to remove those who vote to restrict our rights to own guns, ammo and magazines should be a priority for all of us.

In the short-term, the notion of a veto referendum holds appeal. For one, it is not dependent on the legislators. It is driven by the citizenry. If, as we all expect, the majority of voters do NOT support these restrictive laws - then this is the opportunity to demonstrate it - definitively.

Notably, there are extraordinarily FEW successful veto referendums in those states that allow them. That fact, however, should not deter us. If there was ever an issue that deserves to be addressed by the populace - and taken out of the hands of the politicians - it is this one.

As for a recall, that seems like a long shot to me. If it would be successful, it would focus on only one anti-gun Democrat who is known to be politically vulnerable and in a district where there is a large percentage of gun owners who will have been offended at the recent votes. This would take some political analysis to isolate the Dem to target for recall. That said, if a recall election were successful - even if only one - I'd expect it to send serious shock waves through the rest of the Democratic contingent.

Upthread someone mentioned that the MJ crowd enjoyed the favor of the media. To gain a widespread audience, any initiative directed toward a veto referendum or a recall vote is going to require that we pull out all the stops. We need to find folks among us who can generate YouTube videos professionally-mastered so that we garner interest. We need to engage various organizations in the preparation and purchase of paid advertisements - newspaper, radio, TV. And most of all, we need to really find out if the grassroots of our state really does support us - as there will be enormous sweat equity to secure 10's of thousands (maybe 100's of thousands) of signatures.

This is VERY unlikely to happen without a SERIOUS organizational effort behind it. Whether the participants of this site can pull that off - well, candidly, I have my doubts.

So now - where to start? Someone mentioned a meeting place in the south Denver metro area. Maybe pick a date and time - fix the meeting - spread the word - and see who shows up. Possibly task some interested party with developing an agenda. Encourage volunteers to 'step-up' wherever they feel inspired. It is damn difficult making an entirely volunteer organization - especially one composed of members who also have families and full-time jobs - to make rapid progress, but that is exactly what we need to make happen here, if there is any chance of success.

Offered FWIW

[DHC]

A few additional thoughts specific to the veto referendum:

* The process requires a petition signed by at least 5% of the total number of votes cast for office of the Secretary of State in the previous general election. I am still looking for that total vote count so that I can determine exactly how many signatures would be required.

* The form of the referendum is controlled by statute, and while it encourages writing in plain language, it would probably benefit by having a lawyer review it. At the House Judiciary committee hearings, lawyer Robert Wareham spoke convincingly in opposition of the bills, so he would be someone I would contact and ask for assistance.

* The referendum can ONLY address a single point. Each bill that we want overturned must be addressed through an individual referendum.

* THIS IS THE BIG ONE. From the date of the final vote in the statehouse, the referendum must be filed with the Secretary of State within 90 days.

These are only the very early beginnings of what needs to be addressed. A statewide organization must either be tapped into (maybe NRA, RMGO or other), or created.

Recognizing this is a HUGE undertaking, by God I *like* the idea of our citizens having a DIRECT and CONTROLLING hand in the laws that get passed OR STRUCK DOWN in this state!

[th3w01f]

A few additional thoughts specific to the veto referendum:

* The process requires a petition signed by at least 5% of the total number of votes cast for office of the Secretary of State in the previous general election. I am still looking for that total vote count so that I can determine exactly how many signatures would be required.

* The form of the referendum is controlled by statute, and while it encourages writing in plain language, it would probably benefit by having a lawyer review it. At the House Judiciary committee hearings, lawyer Robert Wareham spoke convincingly in opposition of the bills, so he would be someone I would contact and ask for assistance.

* The referendum can ONLY address a single point. Each bill that we want overturned must be addressed through an individual referendum.

* THIS IS THE BIG ONE. From the date of the final vote in the statehouse, the referendum must be filed with the Secretary of State within 90 days.

These are only the very early beginnings of what needs to be addressed. A statewide organization must either be tapped into (maybe NRA, RMGO or other), or created.

Recognizing this is a HUGE undertaking, by God I *like* the idea of our citizens having a DIRECT and CONTROLLING hand in the laws that get passed OR STRUCK DOWN in this state!

Great points but I think it needs to be somewhat of a grassroots movement. RMGO would probably be the most likely but they seem to have their own agenda at times. I expected they would already have this in the works but haven't heard a peep.

[DHC]

Great points but I think it needs to be somewhat of a grassroots movement. RMGO would probably be the most likely but they seem to have their own agenda at times. I expected they would already have this in the works but haven't heard a peep.

I am of two minds. On the one hand, an organization like RMGO has an existing network of contacts. On the other hand, too often I feel like these organizations are interested LESS in the true interests of the gun owners, and more in the interests of expanding their respective power bases and influence. With those networks, the grassroots movement may be able to take form more quickly. Without one of those organizations, it will need to be created.

I'd probably opt for starting it without them. I guess it comes down to whether I believe the majority of people want those restrictive laws - and since I believe they do not, I expect enough of them to take initiative to spread the word and get signatures that it will happen by and through the rank-and-file. I hope.

[MarkCO]

RMGO can not take the lead on this. CSSA, maybe, but better yet is just a respected guy who can pull both those groups in as well as all the others.

[th3w01f]

RMGO can not take the lead on this. CSSA, maybe, but better yet is just a respected guy who can pull both those groups in as well as all the others.

Is there a legal reason RMGO can't take the lead? Your contact sounds like they would be perfect if they have the time and resources.

[MarkCO]

RMGO is too devisive to be a leader of a coalition which this requires. No legal reason, they would just be ineffective.

[DHC]

RMGO is too devisive to be a leader of a coalition which this requires. No legal reason, they would just be ineffective.

Sadly, I agree.

I wonder if they might be willing to offer contact, however. Even if only a mention in one of their mailings. Something to allow access, however minimal, to their existing infrastructure. Just a thought.

[MarkCO]

Sadly, I agree.

I wonder if they might be willing to offer contact, however. Even if only a mention in one of their mailings. Something to allow access, however minimal, to their existing infrastructure. Just a thought.

More than a thought. We would need RMGO to play nice with all the other boys and girls for this to have a real chance. If they have to lead or take their ball and go home, well, that is their choice, but it will hurt, and their members will certainly see it and not like it.

[Birddog1911]

So who is going to the Capitol on Monday? I'm going to be there, and we need to make a stand.

[mb504]

A few additional thoughts specific to the veto referendum:

* The process requires a petition signed by at least 5% of the total number of votes cast for office of the Secretary of State in the previous general election. I am still looking for that total vote count so that I can determine exactly how many signatures would be required.

Going from the numbers here:
http://www.denverpost.com/election2012

Looks like we would need 118,195 signatures.

As everyone may know, the current CO constitution states:

Section 13. Right to bear arms

The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question; but nothing herein contained shall be construed to justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons.

It would be great if it could be amended to be more like Louisiana's


The right of each citizen to keep and bear arms is fundamental and shall not be infringed. Any restriction on this right shall be subject to strict scrutiny.

This defines how the court is the judge the right, so they don't use some silly "reasonableness" standard.

[rbeau30]

Is anyone else on "MeetUP"? This would be an easy way to get together a group and get mass notifications on meetings and various get-togethers organized.

We could call the group something like. "Concerned citizens for the overturn of Colorado Anti-Gun Legislation"

[Birddog1911]

Can you tell us more about MeetUp?

[Birddog1911]

10MM, is there a time, perhaps on Sunday, that would be a good time for some of us to get together? Trying to get out of work will be quite difficult for me.